Flowers are okay. But if you're picking daisies one minute and then talking down to Charname the next, that's a problem. Blaming her for your own stupid mistakes, and stalking off like a child, is also a problem.
But . . . if you put up with him in the early days, he does get better. It disturbs me, though, because there's no shortage of people in real life who DO put up with a verbally abusive jerk (male or female) in the vain hopes that someday they'll change. And that's my real problem with the Anomen romance, which in itself isn't terrible.
I did the Anomen romance once when I was using a female cavalier as my main character. I thought it was reasonably well written. But I still don't really like the character, and rarely use him. Whether my PC is male or female, I would usually rather have Aerie or Jaheira as my cleric(s). Not always, I have a male character I'm running now who's romancing Aerie, with Anomen as my main cleric. But I still don't really like him much...
Flowers are okay. But if you're picking daisies one minute and then talking down to Charname the next, that's a problem. Blaming her for your own stupid mistakes, and stalking off like a child, is also a problem.
But . . . if you put up with him in the early days, he does get better. It disturbs me, though, because there's no shortage of people in real life who DO put up with a verbally abusive jerk (male or female) in the vain hopes that someday they'll change. And that's my real problem with the Anomen romance, which in itself isn't terrible.
Sounds pretty bad... not as in unbelievable, but it is way too similar to RL people I actually know... Sandwiching sweet moments between abusive episodes and making the other person want to give up but clinging on to hope... and more and more suffering to both sides
I thought the discussion was mostly done when I went to bed... Man was I wrong... 0_0
Anyway, as for Anomen, my only real question is to what extent is he a misogynist? Misogynist is one of those words that includes extremes as well as more mild meanings, so I don't like using it because it's too vague. Does he hate women, or does he just dislike them? Does he mistreat them, or does he just mistrust them and make that known? How much animosity does he show towards women? Also, what is his basis for his dislike of women? I confess to knowing little about him.
I'm sure I must have romanced Anomen at some point, although I can't remember it. But I regularly look through the dialogues in Infinity Explorer and the like. I don't think he ever shows a real animosity toward women, but a somewhat shallow and immature attitude. When you encounter he basically goes from 'burn the evil dr... oh wait, she's hot. Maybe we should bring her along...'
I think really he just overcompensates in some areas because his father was always putting him down. He does get better eventually.
Anomen is probably the best written character in the saga, in my opinion (Aerie is up there, but I do think Anomen is actually better). He has faults, he sometimes pretends they don't exist and sometimes acknowledges them (just like we do), he makes mistakes, he falters, and he can become a better person- or he can wallow in what he is and become even worse. He feels much more like a living actual character then most of them, and he's certainly one of the more interesting characters.
(It's also worth noting he has a lot of haters. And I'm of the opinion that if you make a character who people can hate, you've still done a decent job in writing- because that means your character spoke to them enough to have a real, strong opinion about them. Not positive, sure, but still well done.)
I don't think he's misogynist: that's a pretty heavy word. He talks down to the PC a lot, and his interactions with Neera are borderline creepy (but most Bioware characters are a bit... off, in the new content), but honestly- I think if say, he was gay, he'd talk down to a man he was interested in as well (he certainly talks down to Keldorn, even though half the time he also seems to see him as a mentor). He seems to have a desperate need to prove himself better then anyone else, and particularly his love interest. He *wants* to be the guy who can support someone fully and can be relied on- but he's not there yet. He's childish, has a horrible temper, and generally has trouble giving himself the emotional support he needs, not to mention the player.
But having said that, and admitting that I like his character- the very first time he does his hot/cold routine (he's actually similar to Viconia, in that way: he'll go from complimenting you in love talk to yelling at you in the next one), I'd be like "Boy, this is your one warning- next time you treat me like trash, you're out". (I'd do the same with Viconia.) And yet he does it again. He expects the female PC to adore him, gets huffy when she doesn't show enough interest in him, and can and does act like a pouting child at time.
(Try disagreeing with him. Make a save beforehand. You really can't without him throwing a fit and dumping you. He simply can't handle having his opinions challenged by someone he cares about. I have a few friends like that, and honestly, I adore them yet dread spending time with them at the same time, because it's just so stressful to have to walk on eggshells around them.)
He also has a problem with putting the PC on a pedestal. In someways, I think, us gals (saying that loosely: not all woman are alike and we'll stab you in the back with a smile if you start thinking we are) like that partially- but then we realize that being viewed like that means our love never sees us for us, flawed and human but still of course perfect in our own little way: all the person who puts us on a pedestal is seeing is their ideal 'us', rather then the true 'us'. It never comes up in game, but I can imagine Anomen as the type to be upset if the PC wasn't a virgin when he first sleeps with her, because I think he considers her some incorruptible creature of pureness and light who is there to offer her gentle support and be a fragile thing to protect. And, well, CHARNAME is rarely that gal.
I seem to know someone like that, yet cannot rattle off a name.
Not putting a girl on a pedestal is good, and I doubt all girls will find this appealing anyway. It seems to me that Anomen's problem is still his insecurity - he's unsure of himself but still wants to call the shots in the relationship. And it's pretty remarkable that he sounds like Cor Delryn in that he can't tolerate opposition to his opinions even by people he cares about.
I'm no girl, but if I have to be with someone like that I think I'll pass. If I'm in a good mood, I can shrug off such behavior but even my patience has limits.
Last blast to the past here, then you can all get on with Amnomemnon...
You are postulating that people with different worldviews cannot be good friends. And what do you need to be good friends? Same Good/Neutral alignment? Same Law/Chaos alignment? Identical alignment?
This is very, very dangerous ground to tread, so I'd urge caution that we do not go there. I'll not challenge your assertion further other than pointing out that your statement, whether in fantasy or real life, will open a can of hornets, worms and other vermin
I never said that people with different alignments cannot be friends, have friendships, or cultivate them. I am saying that due to the differences in lifestyle and/or perspectives, that there will be more difficulties than with similar minded ones in general.
However, having friendships between opposites rarely is a basis for a sound, deep friendship. Having a LG and a CE friendship is going to cause problems, moral dilemmas, and certainly some friction (the same between those and a N(X) character). It does not mean that there will never be friendship between such - it just means that there will be added difficulties and obstacles for such.
Note that there is no way to compare this to the real world, because in the FR fantasy world, alignment is a real thing, not just some philosophical construct. And please keep in mind that in that fantasy world, there are real means to determine someone's alignment, which then does give one more insight into someone elses actions.
Totally different ballgame.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled bonfire. Please splash with gasoline.
Yes... apart from the hundreds of worthy things she had to complain about already, and now she has to that misidentification of her taxonomic class, since avariel are mammals since it's mammal as in mammary glands, and if she displays hers the way Viconia does Anomen will cut her down anyway.
Actually, from his stats, he could be considered a BG2-version of the college jock (Str 18/52 and Con 16) with reasonably passable looks (Cha 13), which could have been higher had he not been so obnoxious...
His dialogue still makes him an arrogant jerk at the start. That's pretty tough to get past. A lot tougher than Aerie's issues for me!
Yes. His nasal whine is so burned into my memory that I recall his lines when he hails the party in the Copper Coronet...
"Straaaaaangers! Perhaps you have more courage than the worms that frequent this pit of corruption. I'm AAAAAAnomen, warrior priest of Helm. Whachis your name?"
Makes me wonder WTH is HE doing there when it's a pit of corruption... maybe he likes to feel... corrupted? XD
jacobtan said- "Straaaaaangers! Perhaps you have more courage than the worms that frequent this pit of corruption. I'm AAAAAAnomen, warrior priest of Helm. Whachis your name?"
(Frickin' quote feature... Too hard for a rumjake fool like me to understand...)
Reading that gives me the mental picture of him being overtly flaming. And not the "I just got hit by a fireball" kind.
His dialogue still makes him an arrogant jerk at the start. That's pretty tough to get past. A lot tougher than Aerie's issues for me!
Yes. His nasal whine is so burned into my memory that I recall his lines when he hails the party in the Copper Coronet...
"Straaaaaangers! Perhaps you have more courage than the worms that frequent this pit of corruption. I'm AAAAAAnomen, warrior priest of Helm. Whachis your name?"
Makes me wonder WTH is HE doing there when it's a pit of corruption... maybe he likes to feel... corrupted? XD
Hmmm, Anomen seems to like my charname better: I'm used to being greeted not with "Straaaaaangers", but with a smooth "Fair lady...." which I completely dig!! Anomen the player My favourite character of the entire series I think, hilarious and with good development... Must complete romance at least once!
Hey please don't ruin my perception of Anomen.... Those words Ano (Spanish for anus, pun intended?) and Dung aren't words I'd like to associate with my trusty cleric.
I wish Mr. Corthala had a bit more love. He's smarter than he appears, being the only one who can silence Jan and Haer'Dalis, and snipes back at Viconia. He's so quiet that he comes across as boring, but I like it that he basically minds his own business. Oh well.
I agree, Valygar is one of my faves as well. He's a staple in my neutral/good-aligned parties. I pick companions for their likeability rather than their power, which in the case of my warriors usually means no Keldorn, no Korgan, no Minsc, no Jaheira, but Valygar, Mazzy, Anomen.
I agree, Valygar is one of my faves as well. He's a staple in my neutral/good-aligned parties. I pick companions for their likeability rather than their power, which in the case of my warriors usually means no Keldorn, no Korgan, no Minsc, no Jaheira, but Valygar, Mazzy, Anomen.
If I do use Valygar I'll usually mod him into a R/C (for EE, I'll probably just boost his Wis and change his proficiencies since Stalkers can dual) and drop his Corthala items. I'll just take it that he's a player-created character with NPC dialogue. I find Keldorn too puritanical, Korgan too violent, Minsc too annoying, Jaheira too bossy, and I dislike Mazzy because that prig demands that Valygar be her squire. But I can still tolerate having Keldorn and Jaheira, and Anomen is actually alright, since he backs down when my PC asserts his authority.
Yes, he's ideal for that, though the Wizard Slayer kit... is meh at best. RP wise, he's weird. He won't ever be a mage. He's not a thrill-seeking thief sort. He professes to be an atheist but if I mod him into R/C I'll justify the change as an extension of his stalker powers... SOMEONE has to be granting him his ranger spells, so he's just trying to tap into this unknown power (perhaps some vague nature concept that he appeals to for spells) to be more effective against undead.
He professes to be atheist? In a world where things are constantly being shaped and affected by deities? Honestly, that almost makes me dislike him more. It seems... Blind...
He professes to be atheist? In a world where things are constantly being shaped and affected by deities? Honestly, that almost makes me dislike him more. It seems... Blind...
Yes. In one of his dialogues with Keldorn, it's revealed he's atheist, though looking at the context, it's just that he refuses to profess worship in any god. I'm not too perturbed by this - he's had a hard life, and if he didn't feel the gods made any positive impact on his life (else he'd have had a better time), it's understandable that he won't follow a god at all.
But therein lies the paradox. Priest spells are granted by gods. So there must be a god granting Valygar his spells. I can justify a conversion from ranger to cleric by citing a cleric's greater power against undead (whom he hates) and it's just expanding his connection to whoever is granting him his spells. But how did he get any spells in the first place...
Comments
But . . . if you put up with him in the early days, he does get better. It disturbs me, though, because there's no shortage of people in real life who DO put up with a verbally abusive jerk (male or female) in the vain hopes that someday they'll change. And that's my real problem with the Anomen romance, which in itself isn't terrible.
Not always, I have a male character I'm running now who's romancing Aerie, with Anomen as my main cleric. But I still don't really like him much...
Anyway, as for Anomen, my only real question is to what extent is he a misogynist? Misogynist is one of those words that includes extremes as well as more mild meanings, so I don't like using it because it's too vague. Does he hate women, or does he just dislike them? Does he mistreat them, or does he just mistrust them and make that known? How much animosity does he show towards women? Also, what is his basis for his dislike of women? I confess to knowing little about him.
I think really he just overcompensates in some areas because his father was always putting him down. He does get better eventually.
(It's also worth noting he has a lot of haters. And I'm of the opinion that if you make a character who people can hate, you've still done a decent job in writing- because that means your character spoke to them enough to have a real, strong opinion about them. Not positive, sure, but still well done.)
I don't think he's misogynist: that's a pretty heavy word. He talks down to the PC a lot, and his interactions with Neera are borderline creepy (but most Bioware characters are a bit... off, in the new content), but honestly- I think if say, he was gay, he'd talk down to a man he was interested in as well (he certainly talks down to Keldorn, even though half the time he also seems to see him as a mentor). He seems to have a desperate need to prove himself better then anyone else, and particularly his love interest. He *wants* to be the guy who can support someone fully and can be relied on- but he's not there yet. He's childish, has a horrible temper, and generally has trouble giving himself the emotional support he needs, not to mention the player.
But having said that, and admitting that I like his character- the very first time he does his hot/cold routine (he's actually similar to Viconia, in that way: he'll go from complimenting you in love talk to yelling at you in the next one), I'd be like "Boy, this is your one warning- next time you treat me like trash, you're out". (I'd do the same with Viconia.) And yet he does it again. He expects the female PC to adore him, gets huffy when she doesn't show enough interest in him, and can and does act like a pouting child at time.
(Try disagreeing with him. Make a save beforehand. You really can't without him throwing a fit and dumping you. He simply can't handle having his opinions challenged by someone he cares about. I have a few friends like that, and honestly, I adore them yet dread spending time with them at the same time, because it's just so stressful to have to walk on eggshells around them.)
He also has a problem with putting the PC on a pedestal. In someways, I think, us gals (saying that loosely: not all woman are alike and we'll stab you in the back with a smile if you start thinking we are) like that partially- but then we realize that being viewed like that means our love never sees us for us, flawed and human but still of course perfect in our own little way: all the person who puts us on a pedestal is seeing is their ideal 'us', rather then the true 'us'.
Not putting a girl on a pedestal is good, and I doubt all girls will find this appealing anyway. It seems to me that Anomen's problem is still his insecurity - he's unsure of himself but still wants to call the shots in the relationship. And it's pretty remarkable that he sounds like Cor Delryn in that he can't tolerate opposition to his opinions even by people he cares about.
I'm no girl, but if I have to be with someone like that I think I'll pass. If I'm in a good mood, I can shrug off such behavior but even my patience has limits.
However, having friendships between opposites rarely is a basis for a sound, deep friendship. Having a LG and a CE friendship is going to cause problems, moral dilemmas, and certainly some friction (the same between those and a N(X) character). It does not mean that there will never be friendship between such - it just means that there will be added difficulties and obstacles for such.
Note that there is no way to compare this to the real world, because in the FR fantasy world, alignment is a real thing, not just some philosophical construct. And please keep in mind that in that fantasy world, there are real means to determine someone's alignment, which then does give one more insight into someone elses actions.
Totally different ballgame.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled bonfire. Please splash with gasoline.
Gasoline prices are high so I don't waste it on correcting shoddy argumentation, but thanks for the invite
Let us ask Viccy...hehe.
Sayyyy...have you ever let her burn? Man, she can scream...chalk one up for wood alcohol!
Really? I'll remember to let her burn in my next playthrough then ^_^
Word.
Now if we could only burn Aerie...wouldn't that be grand?
"Now you have something to complain about, bird-girl!"
"Show me how self-sacrificing you are and trade places with Viccy...go on!"
There is something about the smell of wood alcohol and bird feathers burning in the morning...
I think I need to do an evil run in the near future...this thread has got my blood running...I am soooo going to chunk Aerie...
Actually, from his stats, he could be considered a BG2-version of the college jock (Str 18/52 and Con 16) with reasonably passable looks (Cha 13), which could have been higher had he not been so obnoxious...
"Straaaaaangers! Perhaps you have more courage than the worms that frequent this pit of corruption. I'm AAAAAAnomen, warrior priest of Helm. Whachis your name?"
Makes me wonder WTH is HE doing there when it's a pit of corruption... maybe he likes to feel... corrupted? XD
"Straaaaaangers! Perhaps you have more courage than the worms that frequent this pit of corruption. I'm AAAAAAnomen, warrior priest of Helm. Whachis your name?"
(Frickin' quote feature... Too hard for a rumjake fool like me to understand...)
Reading that gives me the mental picture of him being overtly flaming. And not the "I just got hit by a fireball" kind.
My favourite character of the entire series I think, hilarious and with good development... Must complete romance at least once!
I like Ano the Dung Orc... and that Ano smells faintly of lilacs, soils himself with regularity seldom found outside a nursery, etc. etc. :P
LOL Okay!
I wish Mr. Corthala had a bit more love. He's smarter than he appears, being the only one who can silence Jan and Haer'Dalis, and snipes back at Viconia. He's so quiet that he comes across as boring, but I like it that he basically minds his own business. Oh well.
But therein lies the paradox. Priest spells are granted by gods. So there must be a god granting Valygar his spells. I can justify a conversion from ranger to cleric by citing a cleric's greater power against undead (whom he hates) and it's just expanding his connection to whoever is granting him his spells. But how did he get any spells in the first place...
I thought druidic spells came from an attunement to nature, not from worshipping anything?