Look there was no tapping of Trump tower. Everybody says so, period, except the guy who gets his intel from Breitbart and Fox News instead of the real people who he should be getting his information from.
There was tapping of Russian agents. Looky looky who got caught talking to these Russian agents? Trump people.
That is not Obama ordered the real or quotes version of wire tapping of trump tower. That is Trump people getting caught with their greedy little fingers in the cookie jar.
I guess those peddling the Russian narrative were equally wrong since there's equally no evidence Trump ordered any Russian collusion.
Political partisan selective-ness doesn't go anywhere.
Btw It is also Obama's people that engage in illegal and unethical surveillance of American citizens.
No evidence that we know of - there's still ongoing investigations that Mr. Comey, who never comments on investigations, and there's classified intelligence.
If this wasn't the president of the united states, and instead was a company where some middle level guys got busted facing felony charges, 100% for sure they'd flip on the big dog and he'd go down. Did Trump himself order this or that? Possibly, we don't know yet and as jjstraka34 says we need an independent prosecutor to actually look into this. There is a lot of stuff Comey said he hasn't looked into that any objective person would be like it's obvious to check this out.
The intelligence community has concluded that Russia favored Trump to Clinton (listing several potential reasons why), and has also concluded that Russia acted on that preference, interfering with the electoral process by hacking the DNC (and also the RNC, much less persistently) and then leaking documents to damage Clinton's prospects. Whether the hacking actually changed the result of the election is another story. And, to be fair, certain members of Trump's team have been found to have ties to Russia, and some have proved evasive about the nature of those ties.
However, that is simply not enough to conclude that the Trump campaign was colluding with Russia. Having ties to a country does not mean one owes one's loyalty to that country, or is actively working with its government. To prove collusion, we would need an actual record of words spoken or real actions taken, and we simply do not have that. Until we do, we cannot draw conclusions.
It's well established that Russia acted to help Trump and hurt Clinton. But the notion that the Trump team was aware of this, much less working with the Russians, is simply not grounded.
A thousand vague insinuations do not amount to a fact.
Democrat Rep. Adam Schiff (CA) laid out of all of the circumstantial evidence that has built up so far connecting the Trump campaign to Russian state actors seeking the intervene in the election.
No evidence that we know of - there's still ongoing investigations that Mr. Comey, who never comments on investigations, and there's classified intelligence.
Actually its fact that Obama Administration people are involved in surveillance of American Citizens, because they do so all the time per Snowden leaks.
Every implication of Russia narrative applies equally to the Obama administration, probably even worse actually.
President Obama was running for re-election in March 2012, when a live microphone picked up his whispered conversation with then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.
Democrat Rep. Adam Schiff (CA) laid out of all of the circumstantial evidence that has built up so far connecting the Trump campaign to Russian state actors seeking the intervene in the election.
No evidence that we know of - there's still ongoing investigations that Mr. Comey, who never comments on investigations, and there's classified intelligence.
Actually its fact that Obama Administration people are involved in surveillance of American Citizens, because they do so all the time per Snowden leaks.
Every implication of Russia narrative applies equally to the Obama administration, probably even worse actually.
President Obama was running for re-election in March 2012, when a live microphone picked up his whispered conversation with then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.
Did Russia actively seek to hurt the Romney campaign?? Was Obama supposed to assume he was going to LOSE the 2012 Election?? Did Russia steal the emails of the RNC during the Romney campaign and strategically disseminate them to hurt the Republican candidate?? Did Obama Administration officials lie under oath about their conversations with Russian agents?? Did Obama's national security adviser lie to the Vice President and (likely) the FBI about his conversations about sanctions BEFORE being in a government position with the authority to do so, in violation of the Logan Act?? Did that same national security adviser work for the Authoritarian ruler of Turkey until November?? Did Obama's campaign manager do lobbying for the Russian puppet leader of Ukraine while failing to register as a foreign lobbyist?? Did a operative of the Obama campaign have a ongoing relationship with Wikileaks to help disseminate the stolen DNC emails??
I'd say you were comparing apples and oranges, but that would be an insult to the phrase. This is like comparing apples and parakeets.
He currently operates as Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign chairman. He’s previously served as chief of staff to President Bill Clinton and as a counselor to President Barack Obama. His brother, Tony Podesta, is a top bundler for Mrs. Clinton and an active lobbyist at the Podesta Group. Mrs. Clinton has received $12.6 million in lobbyist backing, with Tony Podesta raising more than $100,000 this cycle.
So, instead of meeting with the leaders of one of the three alliances most responsible in the wake of WW2 for avoiding a 3rd one, the Secretary of State, former CEO of Exxon, who is probably closer to Putin than any American alive, is going to go to Russia instead. As I've been saying all along, Putin's goal is to dismantle and weaken the post-war alliances. He is succeeding in the full light of day. It's hard to even call it a "plot" when everything about it, from helping elect Trump, to his support for LePen and opposition to Merkel, is so brazenly out in the open. This is not your grandfather's USSR. It's an Autocratic Petro-State ruled over by Putin and a cluster of oligarchs, all centered around their oil reserves. Tillerson will visit King's Landing and bend the knee.
I remember when Democrats, supposedly wanting peace and better relations, were praising Obama for wanting better relations with Russia.
"The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years….When it comes to our foreign policy, you seem to want to import the foreign policies of the 1980s, just like the social policies of the 1950s, and the economic policies of the 1920s".
I wonder where those Democrats went too, I guess they voted for Trump.
yep wanting better relations is one thing but then putin invaded the ukraine. Hey, Dubya Bush wanted better relations too.
But yeah Obama didn't conspire with Russia to affect American elections like the people working for Trump appear to have done. Trump benefited and refuses to say a bad thing about Russia affecting the US elections. Not even a "hey don't do that".
I thought the Cold War was over until I saw Russia invade Ukraine. It didn't take long before I read some recent analyses of Putin's strategy--one of which explained the problem very succinctly.
The reason the Cold War isn't quite over--the reason the U.S. and Russia are still in a low-level, indirect conflict--is because the Russian government thinks the war never ended. They think we're still out to get them, lurking in every shadow.
Wars are only over when both sides say it's over. Just because we thought it was history didn't mean the Russians did.
I remember when Democrats, supposedly wanting peace and better relations, were praising Obama for wanting better relations with Russia.
"The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years….When it comes to our foreign policy, you seem to want to import the foreign policies of the 1980s, just like the social policies of the 1950s, and the economic policies of the 1920s".
I wonder where those Democrats went too, I guess they voted for Trump.
This idea that anyone concerned about Russia wants war with them is such a strawman. First off, the Cold War IS over. In my last post I explained why. We aren't dealing with the Communist USSR, we are dealing with a Authoritarian State looking to influence elections all over the Western world to elect more of them. Obama was criticizing Romney for acting like it is still 1982. Russia now is an entirely different problem.
This video is also 4 years before they initiated a direct attack on our elections. And I don't personally want anything "done" to Russia outside the sanctions Obama imposed and Michael Flynn illegally undermined. I care about those close to Trump who I believe helped. The idea that Democrats want war with Russia is ludicrous. We have "peace" with Russia. Peace doesn't mean licking the boots of an Authoritarian who kills journalists and political rivals and is essentially an Autocratic dictator seeking to subvert democracy in every major Western country.
I wonder why people support Hillary and/or Obama, since they have been involved attacking other nations with no justification, even under International law.
But Russia's incursion into Ukraine is a big sin.
I would imagine there would be condemnation and rejection of Hillary and Obama.
The CIA meddling in other Governments and elections, was this ever done during Obama's administration?
It seems like if people actually 'care' i imagine they must acknowledge the only candidate worth voting for was actually Trump during the general election.
Or maybe 'caring' about invading other nations isn't as high as political party affiliation.
It was hardly a deflection. Until we saw Putin playing the imperialist in Ukraine and playing the meddler in Syria, most Democrats indeed thought of Russia as just another non-democratic country. We thought Romney was living in the past when he said Russia was a major threat to the United States, but he was right.
But yes, Democrat distrust of Russia emerged well before Trump came along.
@vanatos: Democrats are some of Obama's biggest critics on foreign policy. I didn't start supporting drone strikes--basically Obama's only method of using lethal force in foreign countries--just because my guy was doing it. I was opposed to the practice regardless of who did it.
And killing people to steal land, as Putin did, is indeed a big sin. Bush and Obama fought people and killed people, but they didn't do it so they could annex foreign territory.
We didn't even get Iraq's oil, contrary to people's suspicions about the Bush administration's motives for the war. Iraq's oil contracts didn't go to Halliburton; they went to the lowest bidder. Which happened to be Chinese SEOs.
I don't approve of unregulated and unsupervised killing of alleged terrorists, but there's a difference between killing somebody for being an alleged terrorist and killing somebody because you want their land and they said no.
Is Obama and Hillary supporting and launching a war (or lets say attacking Libya) that is not justified nor approved by either international or American law and process, acceptable? or is it morally wrong?
I'm sure vanatos could find a liberal who is misinformed but the lack of awareness of some Trump voters is pretty staggering. And the polls that show Obamacare as being unpopular but the ACA as being popular are more proof. Hey the Republican messaging attacking "Obamacare" was effective.
After the disasterous CBO report, Trump and Tom Price have changed the goalposts by marketing the Obamacare repeal and replace bill as only one step of a three step program. Then Senator Cotton (R) has said there are no additional steps basically. If one of those steps requires 60 votes and they don't have those votes now, why would they have them later?
People should push back on this argument - hey if there are problems with Obamacare, then why don't you fix that in two steps instead of repealing it? Obamacare is more popular than Trump and Pence and millions of people stand to lose their insurance if it's repealed. Why not fix it?
The 'Obamaphone' lady here in Detroit comes to mind as an uninformed liberal voter. If I recall correctly, when asked where the money comes from she replied 'from Obama's stash'...
With this nominee, we need to afford President Trump the same courtesy Mitch McConnell afforded Barack Obama – no courtesy at all.
On the Senate floor today, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) declared that it would be improper for the Senate to confirm the nominee of a President currently under investigation by the FBI for potentially treasonous connections to hostile foreign powers.
And the FBI is investigating state run media Breitbart and Infowars as part of the expansive Russian probe.
I don't care if Trump had nominated a Frankenstein amalgamation made from the reanimated corpses of Thurgood Marshall and Louis Brandeis. The Dems need to go scorched Earth on this pick on basic principle. This is, and will forever remain, a stolen Supreme Court seat. This was Obama's pick, taken away in a move unprecedented in the history of the Republic.
Comments
There was tapping of Russian agents. Looky looky who got caught talking to these Russian agents? Trump people.
That is not Obama ordered the real or quotes version of wire tapping of trump tower. That is Trump people getting caught with their greedy little fingers in the cookie jar.
Political partisan selective-ness doesn't go anywhere.
Btw It is also Obama's people that engage in illegal and unethical surveillance of American citizens.
If this wasn't the president of the united states, and instead was a company where some middle level guys got busted facing felony charges, 100% for sure they'd flip on the big dog and he'd go down. Did Trump himself order this or that? Possibly, we don't know yet and as jjstraka34 says we need an independent prosecutor to actually look into this. There is a lot of stuff Comey said he hasn't looked into that any objective person would be like it's obvious to check this out.
It was rich hearing Gowdy complain about illegal leakers when he leaked classified intel to the press in the past about Benghazi. Trey Gowdy, so concerned about leaks, leaked name of CIA source during Benghazi hearings
The intelligence community has concluded that Russia favored Trump to Clinton (listing several potential reasons why), and has also concluded that Russia acted on that preference, interfering with the electoral process by hacking the DNC (and also the RNC, much less persistently) and then leaking documents to damage Clinton's prospects. Whether the hacking actually changed the result of the election is another story. And, to be fair, certain members of Trump's team have been found to have ties to Russia, and some have proved evasive about the nature of those ties.
However, that is simply not enough to conclude that the Trump campaign was colluding with Russia. Having ties to a country does not mean one owes one's loyalty to that country, or is actively working with its government. To prove collusion, we would need an actual record of words spoken or real actions taken, and we simply do not have that. Until we do, we cannot draw conclusions.
It's well established that Russia acted to help Trump and hurt Clinton. But the notion that the Trump team was aware of this, much less working with the Russians, is simply not grounded.
A thousand vague insinuations do not amount to a fact.
Every implication of Russia narrative applies equally to the Obama administration, probably even worse actually.
President Obama was running for re-election in March 2012, when a live microphone picked up his whispered conversation with then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.
Obama told Medvedev it was important for incoming President Vladimir Putin to "give me space" on missile defense and other difficult issues and that after the 2012 presidential election he would have "more flexibility." Medvedev said he would "transmit" the message to Putin.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/2012-flashback-obama-whispers-message-putin-after-my-election-ill-have-more
Did Obama and Russia fix the 2012 election?
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Extreme right wing bent
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/cns-news/#prettyPhoto
And anyway here's the case against Trump's associates from publicly discussable sources.
I'd say you were comparing apples and oranges, but that would be an insult to the phrase. This is like comparing apples and parakeets.
The Podesta Group registered in March to lobby on behalf of Russia’s largest bank, Sberbank, tasked with improving its image with U.S. lawmakers, and to help get some U.S. sanctions imposed after Russia’s aggression in the Crimea lifted.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/4/clinton-family-benefits-lobbyists/
Trump is a con artist and his dudes apparently colluded possibly with his approval with Russian actors to throw the election.
So, instead of meeting with the leaders of one of the three alliances most responsible in the wake of WW2 for avoiding a 3rd one, the Secretary of State, former CEO of Exxon, who is probably closer to Putin than any American alive, is going to go to Russia instead. As I've been saying all along, Putin's goal is to dismantle and weaken the post-war alliances. He is succeeding in the full light of day. It's hard to even call it a "plot" when everything about it, from helping elect Trump, to his support for LePen and opposition to Merkel, is so brazenly out in the open. This is not your grandfather's USSR. It's an Autocratic Petro-State ruled over by Putin and a cluster of oligarchs, all centered around their oil reserves. Tillerson will visit King's Landing and bend the knee.
I remember when Democrats, supposedly wanting peace and better relations, were praising Obama for wanting better relations with Russia.
"The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years….When it comes to our foreign policy, you seem to want to import the foreign policies of the 1980s, just like the social policies of the 1950s, and the economic policies of the 1920s".
I wonder where those Democrats went too, I guess they voted for Trump.
But yeah Obama didn't conspire with Russia to affect American elections like the people working for Trump appear to have done. Trump benefited and refuses to say a bad thing about Russia affecting the US elections. Not even a "hey don't do that".
The reason the Cold War isn't quite over--the reason the U.S. and Russia are still in a low-level, indirect conflict--is because the Russian government thinks the war never ended. They think we're still out to get them, lurking in every shadow.
Wars are only over when both sides say it's over. Just because we thought it was history didn't mean the Russians did.
That was our mistake.
This video is also 4 years before they initiated a direct attack on our elections. And I don't personally want anything "done" to Russia outside the sanctions Obama imposed and Michael Flynn illegally undermined. I care about those close to Trump who I believe helped. The idea that Democrats want war with Russia is ludicrous. We have "peace" with Russia. Peace doesn't mean licking the boots of an Authoritarian who kills journalists and political rivals and is essentially an Autocratic dictator seeking to subvert democracy in every major Western country.
But Russia's incursion into Ukraine is a big sin.
I would imagine there would be condemnation and rejection of Hillary and Obama.
The CIA meddling in other Governments and elections, was this ever done during Obama's administration?
It seems like if people actually 'care' i imagine they must acknowledge the only candidate worth voting for was actually Trump during the general election.
Or maybe 'caring' about invading other nations isn't as high as political party affiliation.
But yes, Democrat distrust of Russia emerged well before Trump came along.
Obama and Hillary were involved in attacking other nation(s) in clear violation of international and American law.
Why is the condemnation so lopsided towards a candidate that hasn't actually started a war?
And killing people to steal land, as Putin did, is indeed a big sin. Bush and Obama fought people and killed people, but they didn't do it so they could annex foreign territory.
We didn't even get Iraq's oil, contrary to people's suspicions about the Bush administration's motives for the war. Iraq's oil contracts didn't go to Halliburton; they went to the lowest bidder. Which happened to be Chinese SEOs.
I don't approve of unregulated and unsupervised killing of alleged terrorists, but there's a difference between killing somebody for being an alleged terrorist and killing somebody because you want their land and they said no.
Is Obama and Hillary supporting and launching a war (or lets say attacking Libya) that is not justified nor approved by either international or American law and process, acceptable? or is it morally wrong?
I hold Putin to the same standard.
More people should do that.
Charla McCormic credits the Republican health care plan as the reason why her son's health care premiums have dropped significantly, not realizing that the Republican plan is not law yet and that the Affordable Care Act is the reason for the decrease in her son's costs.
I'm sure vanatos could find a liberal who is misinformed but the lack of awareness of some Trump voters is pretty staggering. And the polls that show Obamacare as being unpopular but the ACA as being popular are more proof. Hey the Republican messaging attacking "Obamacare" was effective.
After the disasterous CBO report, Trump and Tom Price have changed the goalposts by marketing the Obamacare repeal and replace bill as only one step of a three step program. Then Senator Cotton (R) has said there are no additional steps basically. If one of those steps requires 60 votes and they don't have those votes now, why would they have them later?
People should push back on this argument - hey if there are problems with Obamacare, then why don't you fix that in two steps instead of repealing it? Obamacare is more popular than Trump and Pence and millions of people stand to lose their insurance if it's repealed. Why not fix it?
On the Senate floor today, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) declared that it would be improper for the Senate to confirm the nominee of a President currently under investigation by the FBI for potentially treasonous connections to hostile foreign powers.
And the FBI is investigating state run media Breitbart and Infowars as part of the expansive Russian probe.