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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2017
    I suspect it varies from country to county in Europe. Certainly the UK media and police are all calling this latest van attack on muslims "Terrorism".

    The idea that the EU is a monolith where people all share the same culture and attitudes is simply false.
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    "500 million people, 200 languages - no one's got a clue what to say to each other!"

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,389
    Fardragon said:

    The idea that the EU is a monolith where people all share the same culture and attitudes is simply false.

    That may be so in relation to individual countries, but the EU itself doesn't have any tendency to categorise only islamic incidents as terrorism - it's not long ago in this thread there was some discussion of the Europol reports that demonstrate this.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    Here is a question for those in U.K.

    Was the murder of the MP Jo Cox during Brexit reported as a terrorist attack?
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited June 2017
    The government is treating this as a terror attack. The media?? Well.....

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    The government is treating this as a terror attack. The media?? Well.....

    Unless a terrorist organization takes credit for it, or the police charge the offender with a terrorism related charge, responsible media will not label it a terrorist attack.

    This is to prevent libel and to make sure the accused gets a fair trial.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    deltago said:

    The government is treating this as a terror attack. The media?? Well.....

    Unless a terrorist organization takes credit for it, or the police charge the offender with a terrorism related charge, responsible media will not label it a terrorist attack.

    This is to prevent libel and to make sure the accused gets a fair trial.
    I agree with that sentiment, but to not even mention a suspect in any of the headlines, or even an ALLEGED suspect (which would be the responsible qualifier)??
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,389
    edited June 2017
    deltago said:

    Was the murder of the MP Jo Cox during Brexit reported as a terrorist attack?

    In line with @deltago's explanation above the media did not immediately state this was a terrorist attack - no group claimed responsibility and the perpetrator made no statement at the time to explain his motivations. However, during the investigation it became clear that he had far right views and he was convicted of a terrorist attack. I think there was a bit of debate in the media about whether it really was terrorism, but most sources accepted the government's view on that was correct.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2017
    deltago said:



    Unless a terrorist organization takes credit for it, or the police charge the offender with a terrorism related charge, responsible media will not label it a terrorist attack.

    This is to prevent libel and to make sure the accused gets a fair trial.

    The wording used (by the BBC for example) is "the police are treating it as a terrorist incident".

    It's likely the perpetrator will be charged under the prevention of terrorism act.

    Also "a white man aged 48 has been arrested on suspicion of attemted murder" - BBC

    Also "it is the fourth terror attack in the UK in four months" - BBC

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40322960
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited June 2017
    It is certainly nice to see that Britain still honors the actual definition of the word. This would never happen in America.

    Case in point is the Bundy Boys in Oregon. They staged an armed takeover of federal land for strictly political purposes, and were called terrorists by no one. Government, media, etc. They were, in fact, simply allowed to do it for over a month. If a group of Muslims or African-Americans had done the same thing, they would have been shot dead within hours.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    deltago said:

    The government is treating this as a terror attack. The media?? Well.....

    Unless a terrorist organization takes credit for it, or the police charge the offender with a terrorism related charge, responsible media will not label it a terrorist attack.

    This is to prevent libel and to make sure the accused gets a fair trial.
    I agree with that sentiment, but to not even mention a suspect in any of the headlines, or even an ALLEGED suspect (which would be the responsible qualifier)??
    You should never see a headline that says "Muslim drives car into pedestrians killing three" as you are never for certain sure that the person is a muslim? You may get "Middle Eastern man drives..." but once again, you are never certain that is the case.

    It should also be rare for a story to lead with one ethnic background such as "A black middle aged man opened fire in a crowded shopping centre..." as it is considered racist.

    You will also notice, when talking about an alleged crime, the name of those accused are usually buried in the last paragraph of the story.

    All this is responsible journalism.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,653
    The classification of terrorist or not is academic imo. Like today, another truck attack on a police officer in Champs-Elysees the same location that some pro ISIS guy shot a police officer. Nearly every week we see this. Does the classification of terrorism make it worse, or is it the act itself?

    The fact is Europe has imported an insane number of terrorists who have murdered there way across Europe in 2016 to either silence or appeasement and the violence is only going to get worse, from all sides, because of the environment that's been created. It's just the reality we are now faced with due to the incompetence of Merkel and the EU in general.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    deltago said:

    deltago said:

    The government is treating this as a terror attack. The media?? Well.....

    Unless a terrorist organization takes credit for it, or the police charge the offender with a terrorism related charge, responsible media will not label it a terrorist attack.

    This is to prevent libel and to make sure the accused gets a fair trial.
    I agree with that sentiment, but to not even mention a suspect in any of the headlines, or even an ALLEGED suspect (which would be the responsible qualifier)??
    You should never see a headline that says "Muslim drives car into pedestrians killing three" as you are never for certain sure that the person is a muslim? You may get "Middle Eastern man drives..." but once again, you are never certain that is the case.

    It should also be rare for a story to lead with one ethnic background such as "A black middle aged man opened fire in a crowded shopping centre..." as it is considered racist.

    You will also notice, when talking about an alleged crime, the name of those accused are usually buried in the last paragraph of the story.

    All this is responsible journalism.
    I'm not calling for the ethnicity of the suspect to be blasted on the front page, I'm saying they could have acknowledged that there was, in fact, a suspect who did this. According to those headlines, one would surmise that a van became sentient and started running over people.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    You mean like the BBC did?

    The Beeb are a lot slower to mention ethnicity if the suspect isn't white though.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited June 2017
    @Fardragon: I doubt it would be slower. In order for it to be slower, people would have to mention a white person's color earlier than they would mention a non-white person's color.

    But if somebody is white, people don't mention their ethnicity in the first place. Not quickly, not slowly; not at all.

    Personally, I don't see the need to mention it. I can understand posting a photo, which would incidentally show skin color, but who cares what ethnicity they are? A terrorist is a terrorist regardless of their color.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,389

    I'm not calling for the ethnicity of the suspect to be blasted on the front page, I'm saying they could have acknowledged that there was, in fact, a suspect who did this. According to those headlines, one would surmise that a van became sentient and started running over people.

    All the headlines you refer to related to stories released very soon after the incident, i.e. before much at all was known beyond that a van had been driven into a crowd outside a mosque. Even so, while the headlines just refer to the incident itself, the stories behind some of them have already picked up that a man has been arrested. As the reporting is online it's entirely normal that stories are rewritten and expanded as more information becomes available and all the information I'm aware of now is covering the arrest of a suspected terrorist - I'm struggling to see what the concern is about the way this has been reported to be honest.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    True... Early reports aren't going to carry as much detail, and the details are less likely to be accurate.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2017

    @Fardragon: I doubt it would be slower. In order for it to be slower, people would have to mention a white person's color earlier than they would mention a non-white person's color.

    But if somebody is white, people don't mention their ethnicity in the first place. Not quickly, not slowly; not at all.

    Personally, I don't see the need to mention it. I can understand posting a photo, which would incidentally show skin color, but who cares what ethnicity they are? A terrorist is a terrorist regardless of their color.

    Did you read the BBC quote I posted: "a 48 year old WHITE man has been arrested"!? I even incuded a link.

    Although it now turns out he is 47.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    deltago said:

    deltago said:

    The government is treating this as a terror attack. The media?? Well.....

    Unless a terrorist organization takes credit for it, or the police charge the offender with a terrorism related charge, responsible media will not label it a terrorist attack.

    This is to prevent libel and to make sure the accused gets a fair trial.
    I agree with that sentiment, but to not even mention a suspect in any of the headlines, or even an ALLEGED suspect (which would be the responsible qualifier)??
    You should never see a headline that says "Muslim drives car into pedestrians killing three" as you are never for certain sure that the person is a muslim? You may get "Middle Eastern man drives..." but once again, you are never certain that is the case.

    It should also be rare for a story to lead with one ethnic background such as "A black middle aged man opened fire in a crowded shopping centre..." as it is considered racist.

    You will also notice, when talking about an alleged crime, the name of those accused are usually buried in the last paragraph of the story.

    All this is responsible journalism.
    I'm not calling for the ethnicity of the suspect to be blasted on the front page, I'm saying they could have acknowledged that there was, in fact, a suspect who did this. According to those headlines, one would surmise that a van became sentient and started running over people.
    What if he...

    Lost control of the car?
    Swerved to avoid a head on collision?
    Fell asleep at the wheel?
    Had a seizure behind the wheel?
    The steering mechanism alignment malfunctioned/broke?
    Someone else was driving that was being attacked by the accused which actually caused the car to go up on the sidewalk in the first place and the driver was still in the vehicle injured or dead?

    When reporting on incidents like this, you can not assume anything regardless of how obvious it might be.

    Stick with what is known. A van ploughed through a crowd of pedestrians as they were leaving a mosque after morning prayers.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Unlikely a accident, but fair point.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    The Supreme Court just struck down a law giving the government the ability to deny trademarks containing disparaging words or images, so organizations like the Washington Redskins may continue to use the name "Redskins" and the image of a Native American on its products. The actual text of the decision may be found here (it will open as a .pdf in your browser). The decision finds that "the disparagement clause violates the First Amendment's Free Speech clause" and that "contrary to the government's contention, trademarks are private, not government speech".

    Some people may not agree with this ruling but the Supreme Court is correct on this--offensive speech must be protected by the First Amendment. Now, this is not license to go out and be offensive on purpose but if you do say something offensive or you register a trademark which some may find offensive then the Court states that you may do so legally.

    On a broader question, are some things offensive based only upon the person engaging in the speech? Consider Underdover Brother. Is this movie not offensive only because John Ridley wrote the screenplay, Malcolm D. Lee directed it, and Eddie Griffin starred in it? Quentin Tarantino peppers certain pejoratives into some of his movies, most notable Django Unchained and The Hateful Eight, but is he merely being "historically accurate" or does he just want to have his actors say it as many times as the script will allow?
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited June 2017

    The Supreme Court just struck down a law giving the government the ability to deny trademarks containing disparaging words or images, so organizations like the Washington Redskins may continue to use the name "Redskins" and the image of a Native American on its products. The actual text of the decision may be found here (it will open as a .pdf in your browser). The decision finds that "the disparagement clause violates the First Amendment's Free Speech clause" and that "contrary to the government's contention, trademarks are private, not government speech".

    Some people may not agree with this ruling but the Supreme Court is correct on this--offensive speech must be protected by the First Amendment. Now, this is not license to go out and be offensive on purpose but if you do say something offensive or you register a trademark which some may find offensive then the Court states that you may do so legally.

    On a broader question, are some things offensive based only upon the person engaging in the speech? Consider Underdover Brother. Is this movie not offensive only because John Ridley wrote the screenplay, Malcolm D. Lee directed it, and Eddie Griffin starred in it? Quentin Tarantino peppers certain pejoratives into some of his movies, most notable Django Unchained and The Hateful Eight, but is he merely being "historically accurate" or does he just want to have his actors say it as many times as the script will allow?

    This ties in with what I've said from the beginning. Despite what the Alt-right would have you believe, you can say anything you want, and no one is going to LEGALLY stop you. The only actual attempts at suppressing speech have been Republican State legislatures trying to make it illegal to protest.

    What the First Amendment DOES NOT do is entitle you to a platform for your speech, or the financial security of your business. If other people want to try destroy your business because they disagree with you, that is not your rights being violated. It is other people using their own right of free speech as they see fit, to organize against you.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Fardragon said:

    @Fardragon: I doubt it would be slower. In order for it to be slower, people would have to mention a white person's color earlier than they would mention a non-white person's color.

    But if somebody is white, people don't mention their ethnicity in the first place. Not quickly, not slowly; not at all.

    Personally, I don't see the need to mention it. I can understand posting a photo, which would incidentally show skin color, but who cares what ethnicity they are? A terrorist is a terrorist regardless of their color.

    Did you read the BBC quote I posted: "a 48 year old WHITE man has been arrested"!? I even incuded a link.

    Although it now turns out he is 47.
    No, I was referring to all of the other articles I've ever read.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    deltago said:

    Here is a question for those in U.K.

    Was the murder of the MP Jo Cox during Brexit reported as a terrorist attack?

    Yes.

    He was however only charged for murder. This was only due to a lack of evidence on the terror charge. I only know this due to a recent documentary that was shown a year on from her death. You can watch it here...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08v9vmc
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,389
    The fact that the charge used was murder, as opposed to a specific terrorism offence, does not mean that the death was not classed as terrorism - see the following explanation:
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/23/thomas-mair-trial-and-the-question-of-terrorism-jo-cox
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037

    This ties in with what I've said from the beginning. Despite what the Alt-right would have you believe, you can say anything you want, and no one is going to LEGALLY stop you. The only actual attempts at suppressing speech have been Republican State legislatures trying to make it illegal to protest.

    In the interest of being equitable, we cannot forget the various instances of people being disinvited from speaking at college campuses because of student protests. Milo is a waste of time and space, certainly, but if he is invited as part of a forum then he should be allowed to speak.

    Besides, if we don't let the nut-jobs speak their mind we will never be able to figure out who they are merely by looking at them.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    This ties in with what I've said from the beginning. Despite what the Alt-right would have you believe, you can say anything you want, and no one is going to LEGALLY stop you. The only actual attempts at suppressing speech have been Republican State legislatures trying to make it illegal to protest.

    In the interest of being equitable, we cannot forget the various instances of people being disinvited from speaking at college campuses because of student protests. Milo is a waste of time and space, certainly, but if he is invited as part of a forum then he should be allowed to speak.

    Besides, if we don't let the nut-jobs speak their mind we will never be able to figure out who they are merely by looking at them.

    This may be AN issue, but it is nowhere near the same thing as the government criminalizing or shutting down speech themselves through laws.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited June 2017

    The decision finds that "the disparagement clause violates the First Amendment's Free Speech clause" and that "contrary to the government's contention, trademarks are private, not government speech".

    This is a weakening of the governments power to control trademarks.

    So going back to the Redskins example, the NFL could absolutely force the team to rename the Redskins. For example, if people boycott the NFL and the NFL could decide to force the Redskins to rename. That would be just fine with the Supreme Court. It's just not a government issue that the government could step in and force the team to rename. They took the literal definition thing there.

    So if you or I could own a company called "(insert offensive terms here)" or something and that would be fine and dandy, it's not the governments place to stop you because we the people are consumers owned by private industry.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235

    The decision finds that "the disparagement clause violates the First Amendment's Free Speech clause" and that "contrary to the government's contention, trademarks are private, not government speech".

    This is a weakening of the governments power to control trademarks.

    So going back to the Redskins example, the NFL could absolutely force the team to rename the Redskins. For example, if people boycott the NFL and the NFL could decide to force the Redskins to rename. That would be just fine with the Supreme Court. It's just not a government issue that the government could step in and force the team to rename. They took the literal definition thing there.

    So if you or I could own a company called "(insert offensive terms here)" or something and that would be fine and dandy, it's not the governments place to stop you because we the people are consumers owned by private industry.
    No its because the government (intentionally) has never had the right to censorship.
This discussion has been closed.