"In my opinion, if you are not the one wronged, then forgiveness is not yours to give."
Oh absolutely.
For the record I have some interesting family history on the subject. I am half Scottish and on my dad's side one of my ancestor's who immigrated over to the US is known to have *ahem* several deadly encounters with Native Americans. The interesting part is that on my mother's side, I am Native American. One of my ancestors just one generation later was a Cherokee. So at some point in time, my family was probably killing each other.
If you want to take a Sins of the Father approach, be consistent. Everyone owes everybody else reperations for nearly every crime imaginable. The West shouldnt be uniquely held responsible in a way the rest of the world isnt. Thats all I ask.
With power comes responsibility and visibility. Victory doesn't wipe out past behaviour, and the real isdue is technically how whites today treat non-whites, both on micro and macro levels. We're the ones that have the opportunity to be bigger, and we instead as a whole continue to exploit and abuse.
I don't see a major problem in the U.S with whites treating nonwhites bad. Especially.not worth condemning them as a whole. Maybe im missing something?
For what it's worth, research has found that although racist attitudes go towards one direction--that is, it's mostly fear and loathing for blacks and Hispanics--they actually come from all directions. Studies have found that resumes and emails with stereotypically "white"-sounding names get much better responses than other names, and that this trend applies even if the receiver is black/Hispanic/whatever him or herself.
That's the weird thing about racist attitudes. Minorities often internalize them.
For what it's worth, research has found that although racist attitudes go towards one direction--that is, it's mostly fear and loathing for blacks and Hispanics--they actually come from all directions. Studies have found that resumes and emails with stereotypically "white"-sounding names get much better responses than other names, and that this trend applies even if the receiver is black/Hispanic/whatever him or herself.
That's the weird thing about racist attitudes. Minorities often internalize them.
The most visible racism isn't actually the most destructive. It causes the most fireworks, but it is the structural racism that no one can even see exists anymore that causes the real harm. It's all been kept under a lid for almost 300 years, and without exposure to air, the vile stench keeps getting worse. It's easy to point out someone who uses the "n" word, it's quite another to deal with these structural problems that aren't even visible unless you look below the surface.
For what it's worth, research has found that although racist attitudes go towards one direction--that is, it's mostly fear and loathing for blacks and Hispanics--they actually come from all directions. Studies have found that resumes and emails with stereotypically "white"-sounding names get much better responses than other names, and that this trend applies even if the receiver is black/Hispanic/whatever him or herself.
That's the weird thing about racist attitudes. Minorities often internalize them.
I had a friend that did this. When handing out resumes she changed her last name so it sounded more Caucasian since she realized she recieved more job interviews this way.
She figured it boiled down to some people being blatantly racist, others being ignorant about dealing with a Fresh-off-the-boat immigrant and the ESL issues that may arise because of it and others not knowing how to pronounce her last name, so in risking to not offend when they call, they just don't.
Customer services will also encourage, but not demand, those with a foriegn sounding first names to adopt an easier to pronounce name so customers/clients do not trip up on it and will feel more "comfortable" approaching or dealing with them. Once again, boiling down to the last two points above, FOB ignorance and not wanting to offend. It can be as simple as shortening it to the first Syllable or adopting a nickname.
So minorities know how they are percieved by some, and it is mostly born from ignorance than racism. They just adapt to them.
I think most of it is just a subconscious love of the familiar. If you grew up with people named Jake and Kim, the names Jake and Kim will sound nicer than Ci Xiuseng or Ahemmusa Urshilaku.
In other news, CNN hires an Al-Qaida propagandist to do a documentary on Syria for them. I wish the right wing media could take credit for this find, but it's the far left wing media calling them out.
Latest on Trump Russia is campaign members Trump Jr., Kushner and at the time campaign chairman Paul Manafort jumped at the opportunity to meet with a Russian lawyer in June 2016.
The New York Times' reports that Trump Jr. "was promised damaging information about Hillary Clinton before agreeing to meet with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer during the 2016 campaign." The New York Times cited three advisers to the White House briefed on the meeting and two others with knowledge of it.
Prior to the release of the story, Trump Jr. must have heard that it was coming because he claimed the meeting with Kremlin-linked lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya was simply to discuss an adoption program. That's all. But once the facts came out about how he and the others were lured there with promises of damaging information on Clinton his story changed.
After this was reported Trump Jr. made a statement to try and discredit it, which makes no sense so it confirms it happened the way it was reported. "After pleasantries were exchanged, the woman stated that she had information that individuals connected to Russia were funding the Democratic National Committee and supporting Ms. Clinton," Trump Jr. said in the statement prepared by his lawyer. "Her statements were vague, ambiguous and made no sense. No details or supporting information was provided or even offered. It quickly became clear that she had no meaningful information." Hmm, no mention of Russian adoption there.
The story, prepared with help from his lawyers, is a tried and true Trump fiction. He's using the old "it wasn't me, it was you!" misdirection. Apparently Kushner has been under investigation after failing to disclose his own meetings with Russian officials during Trump’s transition in December, and the Times found this new revelation through a revised version of a form that Kushner filled out to receive a government security clearance.
My Pictish ancestors slaughtered the ninth legion 2000 years ago. 1500 years ago my viking ancestors slaughtered the helpless christian monks of Lindisfarne.We are all decended from murderers and thieves if you look back far enough.
Maybe, but it has nothing to do with what I said. I'm talking about *benefit*. Benefit, that is possible to track and pinpoint ones responsible for it. If your grand-grand-grand-...-grandfather Ulrik stolen some golden cross from Bedivere the Monk, and that cross would be in your posession, then grand-grand-grand-...grandson would have every right to demand from you to give it back.
Everything that happened to the previous family, happened independent of your knowledge or intent.
We may differ in that instance, but I wouldn't be comfortable with that situation: yeah, this nice big house I have was previously owned by Jews who got murder during Holocaust... Sucks for them, eh? Still, layout of bedroom is cool!.
I'm pretty sure Mongolia owes trillions of dollars to a lot of people for past transgressions. Good luck getting them to pay for it!
The Egyptians used slaves. Better get them to pony up too.
Don't forget about the Italians, the Greeks, the Macedonians, the Syrians, the Turks, the Saracens, the Babylonians, the Jews, the Huns, the Aztecs, the Spaniards, the Mayans, the Brits, the Russians, the Portuguese, the Belgians, Hell I guess the Scandinavians should pay for the Viking transgressions too. Let's get the lawyers and accountants hashing all this out...
Living in the past will prevent people from looking to the future imo.
The other reason it's morally wrong to hold people responsible for the actions of their ancestors is it implies the opposite argument: "I'm filthy rich, but because my great grandparents where slaves I can be as selfish as I like".
The other reason it's morally wrong to hold people responsible for the actions of their ancestors
Is something getting lost in translation here? Does anyone in Western world want to trial white people for ownership of slaves and put them in jail? Because this is what "holding people responsible for their ancestors' actions" is. The only country I know that does that is North Korea. You are not responsible for your ancestors wrongs (obviously), but you are personaly responsible for taking benefit from them. If you know house you live in belonged to someone your grandfather killed and took the house over, then you are choosing to benefit from the crime. Not you grandfather. You.
Seeing as very few people in the world are talking about actual fair remuneration for abuse to ancestors, I like to think that this is one of many attempts to simply reframe the discussion in a more 'elite friendly' way... its problematic because the world still does not treat people very equally. Its a way to pretend that anyone ever mentioning history for context is a crazy person we don't need to take seriously.
@Artona "Does anyone in Western world want to trial white people for ownership of slaves and put them in jail? "
Yes. More people than you would think.
Are any of them in this discussion though?
If the people in this discussion were able to influence politics, I honestly believe that we would generally be better off than we are now.
@Artona "I'll need some citation for that. " Unfortunately, I'm not the director of the FBI and have not kept memos of every conversation I've ever had. I can only speak from experience as a native of the US that I have personally encountered a enough people that believe this, to expect that it is not an isolated belief.
Unfortunately, I'm not the director of the FBI and have not kept memos of every conversation I've ever had. I can only speak from experience as a native of the US that I have personally encountered a enough people that believe this, to expect that it is not an isolated belief.
If you say so. If it's so common, then I'm surprised I've never heard anyone in media saying so. And I spent fair amount of time few years ago listening to guys like Sargon of Akadon or Milo, who'd simply love to show such demand as examply of how crazy BLM is. Apparently it's more of the underground thing, I guess.
Unfortunately, I'm not the director of the FBI and have not kept memos of every conversation I've ever had. I can only speak from experience as a native of the US that I have personally encountered a enough people that believe this, to expect that it is not an isolated belief.
If you say so. If it's so common, then I'm surprised I've never heard anyone in media saying so. And I spent fair amount of time few years ago listening to guys like Sargon of Akadon or Milo, who'd simply love to show such demand as examply of how crazy BLM is. Apparently it's more of the underground thing, I guess.
I wouldn't say its *common* but it exists and I've encountered it more than once.
Normally I wouldn't support reparations for crimes against the dead--the dead are beyond our help--but I would support reparations for segregation, if not slavery, depending on the terms. Unlike the case of slavery, the victims of segregation are still very much alive. We'd be able to provide compensation for the actual victims, rather than just their distant relatives.
I wouldn't say its *common* but it exists and I've encountered it more than once.
I have no reason not to believe you. I think that anyone who seriously wants to prosecute someone because ancestors of that person committed a crime is simply a barbarian, who rejects basic rules of Western societies.
The other reason it's morally wrong to hold people responsible for the actions of their ancestors
Is something getting lost in translation here? Does anyone in Western world want to trial white people for ownership of slaves and put them in jail? Because this is what "holding people responsible for their ancestors' actions" is. The only country I know that does that is North Korea. You are not responsible for your ancestors wrongs (obviously), but you are personaly responsible for taking benefit from them. If you know house you live in belonged to someone your grandfather killed and took the house over, then you are choosing to benefit from the crime. Not you grandfather. You.
So, my Anglo Saxon ancestors killed lots celts and took over Britain. I now live in Britain. Should I pay renumirations to the celts? Which Celts? Because the ones the country was stolen from are long dead.
My ancestors where also desperately poor, up to my Grandparents. Do the decendents of the people who where running the country at the time owe me a debt for the appalling poverty my ancestors lived in?
As a child, I spent a lot of time in the Liverpool municipal museum. I learned a lot there, and it helped me to become a teacher, sharing what I learned with many others. But the museum was in part paid for with profits from the slave trade in the 18th century.
This is a gordian knot that is impossible to unravel, and if you did it would leave everyone worse off. The only way to move forward is to cut it at the here and now
This is a gordian knot that is impossible to unravel, and if you did it would leave everyone worse off. The only way to move forward is to cut it at the here and now
How convienent for white Westerners!
As for above questions I was clear enough in my previous comments, but let me spelling out again: if you benefit directly from wrongdoings of your ancestors, it's your personal responsibility. There is no point in repeating the same point again and again in answer to "examples" that miss the point. I never said anything about any kind of "global responsibility", and anyone reading my comments in good faith would see that. I was talking about real-life, specific situations and specific people. So yeah, if your ancestor killed some Celt and took over his land, and descendant of that Celt presents you proof of that, then you have moral responsibility to make up for that fact. Speficic situation, specific people, not some butterfly-effect what ifs. Not for murder and taking over the land, but taking benefit from it.
Let's avoid resorting to caps lock; it looks like shouting. I generally find it's better to use italics, bold font, or line breaks to emphasize important points.
Beyond Segregation, another really, really good example of a historical issue is Residential Schools in Canada, where there was deliberate cultural genocide committed. So, there are 3 main affected groups I think: the sbused dead, the abused living, and the children of the abused that were raised w/out parents and thus were unsurprisingly bad parents. The Canadian government can't help the dead, but our government deliberately created a situation to disadvantage only Native American children, so most feel some manner of reparation is probably in line, even for people that did not live in Residential Schools.
The very obvious difference between these examples and the abuses of for example the Normans or Saxons is that nobody can really show direct cause and effect, AND neither the original Saxons or Normans still exist as a ruling, empowered group. You can't find anyone culturally connected to the Saxons, so frankly yes, they ultimately get a pass. They lived in a different world than we do though, or I'd like to think thry did, judging by the level of civilization. @Fardragon you're a bright fellow, I do I know you know this.
Regarding the slave trade, thats probably not as destructive as colonization was for Africa, especially when Europeans pulled overnight in most countries. Kidnapping millions did damage, but enslaving the entire population as colonialization did?? Ick.
Comments
Oh absolutely.
For the record I have some interesting family history on the subject. I am half Scottish and on my dad's side one of my ancestor's who immigrated over to the US is known to have *ahem* several deadly encounters with Native Americans. The interesting part is that on my mother's side, I am Native American. One of my ancestors just one generation later was a Cherokee. So at some point in time, my family was probably killing each other.
That's the weird thing about racist attitudes. Minorities often internalize them.
She figured it boiled down to some people being blatantly racist, others being ignorant about dealing with a Fresh-off-the-boat immigrant and the ESL issues that may arise because of it and others not knowing how to pronounce her last name, so in risking to not offend when they call, they just don't.
Customer services will also encourage, but not demand, those with a foriegn sounding first names to adopt an easier to pronounce name so customers/clients do not trip up on it and will feel more "comfortable" approaching or dealing with them. Once again, boiling down to the last two points above, FOB ignorance and not wanting to offend. It can be as simple as shortening it to the first Syllable or adopting a nickname.
So minorities know how they are percieved by some, and it is mostly born from ignorance than racism. They just adapt to them.
http://m.truthdig.com/report/item/cnn_hired_al-qaida_propagandist_award-winning_syria_documentary_20170709
The New York Times' reports that Trump Jr. "was promised damaging information about Hillary Clinton before agreeing to meet with a Kremlin-connected Russian lawyer during the 2016 campaign." The New York Times cited three advisers to the White House briefed on the meeting and two others with knowledge of it.
Prior to the release of the story, Trump Jr. must have heard that it was coming because he claimed the meeting with Kremlin-linked lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya was simply to discuss an adoption program. That's all. But once the facts came out about how he and the others were lured there with promises of damaging information on Clinton his story changed.
After this was reported Trump Jr. made a statement to try and discredit it, which makes no sense so it confirms it happened the way it was reported. "After pleasantries were exchanged, the woman stated that she had information that individuals connected to Russia were funding the Democratic National Committee and supporting Ms. Clinton," Trump Jr. said in the statement prepared by his lawyer. "Her statements were vague, ambiguous and made no sense. No details or supporting information was provided or even offered. It quickly became clear that she had no meaningful information." Hmm, no mention of Russian adoption there.
The story, prepared with help from his lawyers, is a tried and true Trump fiction. He's using the old "it wasn't me, it was you!" misdirection. Apparently Kushner has been under investigation after failing to disclose his own meetings with Russian officials during Trump’s transition in December, and the Times found this new revelation through a revised version of a form that Kushner filled out to receive a government security clearance.
Maybe, but it has nothing to do with what I said. I'm talking about *benefit*. Benefit, that is possible to track and pinpoint ones responsible for it. If your grand-grand-grand-...-grandfather Ulrik stolen some golden cross from Bedivere the Monk, and that cross would be in your posession, then grand-grand-grand-...grandson would have every right to demand from you to give it back.
We may differ in that instance, but I wouldn't be comfortable with that situation: yeah, this nice big house I have was previously owned by Jews who got murder during Holocaust... Sucks for them, eh? Still, layout of bedroom is cool!.
It really reminds me of this.
I'm absolutely okay with Europeans asking for reparations people from different parts of the world, if they can prove they have been wronged.
The Egyptians used slaves. Better get them to pony up too.
Don't forget about the Italians, the Greeks, the Macedonians, the Syrians, the Turks, the Saracens, the Babylonians, the Jews, the Huns, the Aztecs, the Spaniards, the Mayans, the Brits, the Russians, the Portuguese, the Belgians, Hell I guess the Scandinavians should pay for the Viking transgressions too. Let's get the lawyers and accountants hashing all this out...
Living in the past will prevent people from looking to the future imo.
Is something getting lost in translation here?
Does anyone in Western world want to trial white people for ownership of slaves and put them in jail? Because this is what "holding people responsible for their ancestors' actions" is. The only country I know that does that is North Korea.
You are not responsible for your ancestors wrongs (obviously), but you are personaly responsible for taking benefit from them.
If you know house you live in belonged to someone your grandfather killed and took the house over, then you are choosing to benefit from the crime. Not you grandfather. You.
Yes. More people than you would think.
I'll need some citation for that.
Indeed it seems to be an easy way to shift responsibility ("it's not me but my ancestor bro!").
@Artona "I'll need some citation for that. " Unfortunately, I'm not the director of the FBI and have not kept memos of every conversation I've ever had. I can only speak from experience as a native of the US that I have personally encountered a enough people that believe this, to expect that it is not an isolated belief.
Yes
Put me in charge
Mua
Mua ha ha
Mua ha ha ha
If you say so. If it's so common, then I'm surprised I've never heard anyone in media saying so. And I spent fair amount of time few years ago listening to guys like Sargon of Akadon or Milo, who'd simply love to show such demand as examply of how crazy BLM is.
Apparently it's more of the underground thing, I guess.
I have no reason not to believe you.
I think that anyone who seriously wants to prosecute someone because ancestors of that person committed a crime is simply a barbarian, who rejects basic rules of Western societies.
My ancestors where also desperately poor, up to my Grandparents. Do the decendents of the people who where running the country at the time owe me a debt for the appalling poverty my ancestors lived in?
As a child, I spent a lot of time in the Liverpool municipal museum. I learned a lot there, and it helped me to become a teacher, sharing what I learned with many others. But the museum was in part paid for with profits from the slave trade in the 18th century.
This is a gordian knot that is impossible to unravel, and if you did it would leave everyone worse off. The only way to move forward is to cut it at the here and now
How convienent for white Westerners!
As for above questions I was clear enough in my previous comments, but let me spelling out again: if you benefit directly from wrongdoings of your ancestors, it's your personal responsibility.
There is no point in repeating the same point again and again in answer to "examples" that miss the point. I never said anything about any kind of "global responsibility", and anyone reading my comments in good faith would see that. I was talking about real-life, specific situations and specific people. So yeah, if your ancestor killed some Celt and took over his land, and descendant of that Celt presents you proof of that, then you have moral responsibility to make up for that fact. Speficic situation, specific people, not some butterfly-effect what ifs.
Not for murder and taking over the land, but taking benefit from it.
The very obvious difference between these examples and the abuses of for example the Normans or Saxons is that nobody can really show direct cause and effect, AND neither the original Saxons or Normans still exist as a ruling, empowered group. You can't find anyone culturally connected to the Saxons, so frankly yes, they ultimately get a pass. They lived in a different world than we do though, or I'd like to think thry did, judging by the level of civilization. @Fardragon you're a bright fellow, I do I know you know this.
Regarding the slave trade, thats probably not as destructive as colonization was for Africa, especially when Europeans pulled overnight in most countries. Kidnapping millions did damage, but enslaving the entire population as colonialization did?? Ick.