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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2017
    Ok, Twitter is in rapture at the moment as reporters are tweeting about Senator's body language and every move and word John McCain utters that they can see or hear. From what I can gleam, they would be voting already if they had it, McCain may in fact save his legacy and be a no, which is making Heller think twice about walking the plank for a dead bill. We'll see.

    Update: Now reports that Pence has left the chamber, which, if true, would mean there is no reason for him to be there to break the tie.

    Pence returns to the floor, McConnell leaves. McCain starts talking to a crowd of Democrats and apparently tells a hilarious joke or story. Apparently Orrin Hatch and John Cornyn look pissed. McConnell walks right by McCain without acknowledging him at all. Group of Republicans lobbying hard on Murkowski of Alaska, who the Trump Administration threatened this morning.

    Alright, seriously at this point, the only thing left to happen is for the lights to go out, Kane's music from the WWF to start playing, and Jim Ross to say "What is that King?? By god, by god King, it's Scaramucci!!!"
    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited July 2017

    Ok, Twitter is in rapture at the moment as reporters are tweeting about Senator's body language and every move and word John McCain utters that they can see or hear. From what I can gleam, they would be voting already if they had it, McCain may in fact save his legacy and be a no, which is making Heller think twice about walking the plank for a dead bill. We'll see.

    Update: Now reports that Pence has left the chamber, which, if true, would mean there is no reason for him to be there to break the tie.

    he's still there, I see him on the live stream on cnn. Obamacare is getting repealed tonight in the dead of night, they've shown no signs of stopping being awful yet, why stop now?
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2017
    McCain votes no and saves his legacy. Quite possible that his diagnosis and the speech by Hawaii Senator Mazie Hirono who also has Stage-4 cancer had some effect on him. Hard to say. This is STILL not over, Trumpcare is a hydra, and if you cut the heads off, they grow back. Nothing is safe until after the recess when they can't pass it by reconciliation.

    This honestly felt like a minor reliving of election night to me. And I don't stand to personally lose anything. For those who stand to lose their insurance, what the GOP continues to do on healthcare is nothing less than emotional terrorism.

    Biggest mystery is why the hell Heller would vote yes on a bill he knew was going to be defeated on vote. Heller is toast in Nevada. He's gone.
    semiticgoddess
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    51-49 hilarious! Failed.
    [Deleted User]
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2017
    deltago said:

    51-49 hilarious! Failed.

    This was some seriously compelling political theater. However, to millions, it wasn't a game. There was serious anxiety all over this country tonight leading up to this vote. Mitch McConnell is on the verge of crying, and Trump's tweets tomorrow morning will be....quite interesting to see.
    semiticgoddess
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited July 2017

    deltago said:

    51-49 hilarious! Failed.

    This was some seriously compelling political theater. However, to millions, it wasn't a game. There was serious anxiety all over this country tonight leading up to this vote. Mitch McConnell is on the verge of crying, and Trump's tweets tomorrow morning will be....quite interesting to see.
    prediction: tomorrow trump announces charges against hillary clinton and obama and declares war against north korea and iran. And announces a new arm of the military the religious police while he's at it.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    deltago said:

    51-49 hilarious! Failed.

    This was some seriously compelling political theater. However, to millions, it wasn't a game. There was serious anxiety all over this country tonight leading up to this vote. Mitch McConnell is on the verge of crying, and Trump's tweets tomorrow morning will be....quite interesting to see.
    No, it pretty much shows what they are trying to do isn't working and that they need to change course. This tiny little vote was just suppose to be a win for them, to prove they can pass something, to move past the dysfunctional and split party. It didn't happen, because they are not communicating properly.

    It was amusing to hear McConnell say, "well what's your idea then?"

    Well there idea was Obamacare. You are the party with no ideas and can't get a damn thing passed.

    Hopefully for the sanity of the United States this is a turning point for the better or it's going to be a very long and frustrating few years until the American people can fix their mistake.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    So this is the fourth time they tried to pass a new health law and it didn't even make it to an actual vote.

    How long is this going to go on?
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957
    edited July 2017

    Logically, "not having health insurance" is not equivalent to "killing someone" or "allowing someone to die". If it were, then everyone who died throughout human history before health insurance existed was "killed" or "allowed to die". Find a better, more logical argument.

    True. They didn't have health care before.

    Then you give it to them. Tens of thousands of people who would have died are SAVED.

    Then you take it away from them. Now those tens of thousands are back on the chopping block.

    See how it works?

    You could make the argument, as my father did that "Well, nobody died. They just went to ERs".

    That is:
    a. A load of B.S. Sure, some, let's even say MOST did. Hospitals are not required to do what is necessary to save you, they only have to STABILIZE you enough to kick you out.
    b. A very expensive and costly, backwards, and stupid way of doing things. Which has been hashed out probably since before hospitals have been required by law to do so. (Reagan era I think?)

    Mitch McConnell is on the verge of crying

    Good, I want to see that heartless bastard weep. Ryan's close with his desire to see Medicaid gutted (and the consequent affect on millions), but nothing beats McConnell and the Garland nomination for sheer asshattery.
    jjstraka34
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Curious quote from the BBC coverage:

    "The arc of history is long, but it bends towards revenge."
    - Anthony Zurcher

    bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40750071
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957
    Fardragon said:

    Curious quote from the BBC coverage:

    "The arc of history is long, but it bends towards revenge."
    - Anthony Zurcher

    bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40750071

    Next paragraph paints it as McCain getting revenge on Trump for Trump's disparagement of McCain.

    *shrug*
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Meanwhile in Finland Putin came to visit for our country's 100th birthday

    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/fridays_papers_putin_putin_putin/9745793
    Artonadeltago
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    edited July 2017
    ThacoBell said:


    Thanks for proving my point. I'm white so my difficulties don't matter.

    If you cannot be bothered to actually learn what white privilege is, maybe you shouldn't have such a strong opinion on it. Your anecdotal unlucky life experience is irrelevant, just like mine is irrelevant. If you don't know why it doesn't matter how your life is, and if you don't realise why bad things happening in your life do not mean you never benefited from white privilege, then you never understood the concept in the first place.

    Or, since you drew an erroneous conclusion from that the first time: your anecdotal experience does not erase white privilege, and it does not mean you didn't benefit from it. If you think it does, you have no idea what white privilege is, and you should educate yourself before you opine on it.
    Post edited by Ayiekie on
    DreadKhan
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    ThacoBell said:

    @Artona Was this line not clear enough? "One of the most unacknowledged white privileges is how virtually everyone else has not held the undying blood vendetta against white people that, morally, they are pretty entitled to."
    Remember kids, its the moral thing to go on a genocidal ramapage against people whose skin color is different than yours. Yeah, I don't see how this is racist at all. It clearly promotes acceptance and love. Because I am white, I am clearly a vile human being that spends my weekends killing and enslaving all minority groups, and they are ENTITLED to want to slaughter me and my family. My wife? She's white so she must also be a genocidal tyrant. My ! year old son? Doesn't matter, genocidal tyrant. Don't waste my time trying to defend hateful tripe like this. There is NO excuse for it. Frankly, I'm shocked that saying crap like that is allowed in the site rules.

    Per the site rules, I'm only discussing the actual idea here.

    You're mistaking the idea of a collective group's actions with the moral culpability of every member of that group. There is a reason I made a point of saying that I myself am white, and that I have not personally done anything to harm, say, aboriginal Australians. And yet I would not be surprised or resentful to speak to or hear an aboriginal Australian that resented me and those who look like me. They are entitled to. The history speaks for itself, and it's a history that goes right up to the present day. And I'm squatting on their stolen land, so there's that too.

    That is most certainly also correct of African-Americans. The end of slavery did not magically lead to the end of their mistreatment. Neither did the 20th century. It happens to this day. The President of the United States was once convicted of racial bias in his renting practices (and started his campaign by calling Mexicans rapists) - and then got elected almost entirely by white people. I resent that deeply, and I'm white. Imagine what I'd feel if I had actual skin in the game, so to speak.

    I also mentioned the Nazis for a reason. Where is this careful separation of group and individual culpability there? Where is the appreciation that not everyone who was a Nazi or in the German military was evil? I don't know your views on the matter, but I know where America collectively falls on the matter. Oh, but let's get a little more modern with this: how about ISIS? There are many reasons people joined ISIS, and there are many levels of individual guilt there (including "basically none"). Is that how it's treated in US media? Ha ha, of course not. Everyone in ISIS is guilty. Collective punishment is due to them, their family members, everyone who happens to be nearby to them, and this is the verdict of the overwhelming majority of US citizens. Indeed, their verdict extends out collectively to literally anyone Islamic who the government accuses of anything on any pretext.

    And yet the crimes of ISIS are utterly piddly and transient compared to the crimes of white people against people of sub-Saharan African descent. Read sometime, if you will, about the conditions on sugar plantations in the Americas. Read sometime, if you will, about the Tuskagee Syphilis Experiment. Read about what white landlords in Chicago did to black tenants for the last sixty years. Read and read and read until you can't stand it anymore, because it never, never ends and it gets worse and worse than you can imagine.

    Collective guilt happens all the time, and I sincerely doubt you hold out for the possible innocent humanity of the individual Nazi (read: German), or the individual ISIS member (read: Sunni Iraqi). But if you do: great! I agree with you. But most people don't. And that is why it is an amazing thing that so few POC hold the blood vendetta against white people that, morally, they are entitled to.

    That's not even getting into the fact that white Americans, collectively, have all benefited from the enslavement, theft, murder and genocide of POC. (The same is true of Canadians; the economic benefits of the trans-Canada railroad did not flow to the Chinese labourers who died to built it, for instance.) When people horded Nazi gold and stolen art in Swiss bank accounts and such, this was not considered a morally neutral act, and mysteriously, their descendants are not entitled to the profits of such "labours" if it comes out. But then, the Nazis lost, and as we all know, that makes their moral wrongness much more wrong than if they had won.

    Grond0ronaldoDreadKhanNonnahswriter
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975


    The distinction is that while the folks who fought the Native Americans were white, and while the folks who owned the slaves were white, white people today committed neither of those things. Those crimes happened before they were even born. I don't think differently of white Americans for slavery for the same reason I don't think differently of Japan for the Rape of Nanking: because the perpetrators are dead.

    Out of curiosity, what did you think of Japan for the Rape of Nanking, let's say, twenty years ago, when they weren't all dead?

    (In fact, do you have any knowledge that says they're all dead now? There's still a fair few WWII vets alive.)


    You can rightly point out that anecdotal evidence isn't convincing on its own, but @ThacoBell's life experience shouldn't be dismissed out of hand just because of the color of his skin.

    Perhaps my distaste for anecdotal evidence muddied my point. The real problem here was that "white privilege" does not have anything to do with anyone's anecdotal life story. Like, at all. It isn't about "all white people have it good", and it isn't even about "all white people are better off". Even relating it to your own anecdotal experience misses the point, since white privilege is functionally invisible to white people who have no been made aware of it. It never occurs to me to be thankful for the privilege of having never, ever been pulled over by a cop for no clear reason, for instance, because to me that is the normal state of being: cops do not pull you over unless you do something. (But don't take that example too seriously - first, it could be just statistical, and second, see below.)

    More to the point, it is an academic term. And it really shouldn't be used lightly by people who are not actually educated in it (much like critical literary theory, or feminist theory). People go to university for years to understand these concepts, which are not low-level easy-to-digest things any more than fractional calculus is. This is also why I'm trying to avoid giving a specific definition of the term myself. I know enough to know what it is not in this case, but that does not make me an expert.

    Anyway, long story short - his anecdotal evidence wasn't merely insufficient, it was completely irrelevant and thus revelatory of a lack of understanding of the concept. Also, had he ever looked it up, he would have seen his own "I'm white and I'm not privileged!" argument used again and again and again - and what the standard responses to it were (even the Wikipedia article has a rebuttal to this argument).

    With regards to your argument, boiled down again: being white doesn't mean your experience isn't important, but it also doesn't mean POC have to consider it important. If they do, that is being kind.

    Also, one could argue the fact you consider it a problem, rather than totally normal, to be dismissed because of the colour of your skin is actually white privilege in action. :)
    ArtonaDreadKhan
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    Fardragon said:

    Curious quote from the BBC coverage:

    "The arc of history is long, but it bends towards revenge."
    - Anthony Zurcher

    bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40750071

    Next paragraph paints it as McCain getting revenge on Trump for Trump's disparagement of McCain.

    *shrug*
    But is that a fair assessment? Unless there is actually evidence that this was McCain's motive, rather than that he simply thought it was a bad idea, it would seem to go beyond journalism and into opinion.
    Ayiekiesemiticgoddess
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2017
    Fardragon said:

    Fardragon said:

    Curious quote from the BBC coverage:

    "The arc of history is long, but it bends towards revenge."
    - Anthony Zurcher

    bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40750071

    Next paragraph paints it as McCain getting revenge on Trump for Trump's disparagement of McCain.

    *shrug*
    But is that a fair assessment? Unless there is actually evidence that this was McCain's motive, rather than that he simply thought it was a bad idea, it would seem to go beyond journalism and into opinion.
    No way to know for sure, but a large part of McCain's "maverick" mythos has been sticking it to people as revenge, or can at least be construed that way based on how he voted previously on the same issues. He did it to Bush a few times, and you may recall that the Bush campaign was spreading a rumor in the South Carolina primary that he had an out of wedlock black child (in 2000). Word is that while Pence was having his 20 conversation with McCain on the Senate floor last night, the President called him to lobby for support. Wonder why that call would have no effect......

    "He's not a war hero, he's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured."

    In the end, I don't care WHY John McCain voted against it, only that it happened. Quite honestly, his grandstanding before the vote to reporters (who asked what his vote was going to be and he replied "watch the show") would lend credence to the fact that McCain was relishing the idea of cementing his legacy with this vote bucking his own party, and especially Trump. I'm fairly certain that had alot to do with it.
    Mathsorcerer
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    @Ayiekie maybe point out to white people bringing up personal experience that they are not a statistically significant sample? It sounds less offensive than saying they 'don't matter'. Just window dressing.
    semiticgoddess
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367

    Meanwhile in Finland Putin came to visit for our country's 100th birthday

    https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/fridays_papers_putin_putin_putin/9745793

    At least he didn't bring the Red Army with him like the last time the Russians came to visit...
    smeagolheart
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037

    Obamacare had 10 months of debate. Nearly a month on the Senate floor itself. Democrats bending over backwards, moving the bill further and further to the right in some HOPE of cooperation from Republicans.

    That is the part which still confuses me. Why did the Democrats even bother consulting with Republicans at the time? When the ACA passed, the Democrats had majorities in both Houses of Congress so they could have passed whatever they wanted yet they chose to pass what got passed. Why?

    I guarantee that the next time they wind up with majorities in both Houses (whenever that might occur) they won't bother about trying to include the other side. Quit trying to be "bipartisan"--if you have the votes to pass your legislation then just vote and pass it. Of course, the flip side of that coin is that if your legislation winds up being a really bad idea you have to own it.
    apparently it's foolish to try and be bipartisan is what you're saying. Republicans certainly weren't and certainly are not now.
    If the two sides dislike each other to the degree which they do then yes, that is what I am saying. I will go back to my usual analogy of being in a marriage. If you and your spouse have gotten to the point where you can't really stand each other and every discussion, sometimes even the trivial ones, result in an argument then why bother trying to find any sort of compromise? When a decision is up to you just do what you want and when a decision is up to them they do what they want, without consulting the other side. Given that the two of you have decided that you aren't getting divorced and you are going to live in the same house even though you cannot stand each other, at least this way both of you are able to find a little peace every now and then when you get to make the decisions.

    *************

    "Not going to the doctor because I don't have insurance" is a choice. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head, forcing them to stay in a job situation where they don't make enough money. 11 years ago today, I was living in a rent-by-the-week hotel, riding a bicycle to the bus station so I could get to work. I decided to change the direction of my life so I scraped the money, bought the study book and self-taught myself into a computer certification, got a better job with it, got another certification, moved into an even better job, and so on. Now I make triple what I made back then and the monthly household budget question isn't "are we going to be able to pay the bills?" but "how much money will be left over after everything gets paid?".

    There is an unfortunate truth which applies to everyone, including me: right now, you are living the life you chose to live. No matter who you are, your circumstances, whether good or bad, are the sum total of the choices you have made in life. If you don't like your circumstances, then do something about it.
    Balrog99
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    Balrog99 said:

    At least he didn't bring the Red Army with him like the last time the Russians came to visit...

    Maybe he knows it wasn't exatly the brightest idea that last time. ;)
    Balrog99FinneousPJ
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857

    Obamacare had 10 months of debate. Nearly a month on the Senate floor itself. Democrats bending over backwards, moving the bill further and further to the right in some HOPE of cooperation from Republicans.

    That is the part which still confuses me. Why did the Democrats even bother consulting with Republicans at the time? When the ACA passed, the Democrats had majorities in both Houses of Congress so they could have passed whatever they wanted yet they chose to pass what got passed. Why?

    I guarantee that the next time they wind up with majorities in both Houses (whenever that might occur) they won't bother about trying to include the other side. Quit trying to be "bipartisan"--if you have the votes to pass your legislation then just vote and pass it. Of course, the flip side of that coin is that if your legislation winds up being a really bad idea you have to own it.
    apparently it's foolish to try and be bipartisan is what you're saying. Republicans certainly weren't and certainly are not now.
    If the two sides dislike each other to the degree which they do then yes, that is what I am saying. I will go back to my usual analogy of being in a marriage. If you and your spouse have gotten to the point where you can't really stand each other and every discussion, sometimes even the trivial ones, result in an argument then why bother trying to find any sort of compromise? When a decision is up to you just do what you want and when a decision is up to them they do what they want, without consulting the other side. Given that the two of you have decided that you aren't getting divorced and you are going to live in the same house even though you cannot stand each other, at least this way both of you are able to find a little peace every now and then when you get to make the decisions.

    *************

    "Not going to the doctor because I don't have insurance" is a choice. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head, forcing them to stay in a job situation where they don't make enough money. 11 years ago today, I was living in a rent-by-the-week hotel, riding a bicycle to the bus station so I could get to work. I decided to change the direction of my life so I scraped the money, bought the study book and self-taught myself into a computer certification, got a better job with it, got another certification, moved into an even better job, and so on. Now I make triple what I made back then and the monthly household budget question isn't "are we going to be able to pay the bills?" but "how much money will be left over after everything gets paid?".

    There is an unfortunate truth which applies to everyone, including me: right now, you are living the life you chose to live. No matter who you are, your circumstances, whether good or bad, are the sum total of the choices you have made in life. If you don't like your circumstances, then do something about it.
    ...yeah, **** those kids born disabled, they ought to have chosen better! **** blacks too for that matter.

    PS this view is why people continue to **** on veterans. You are NOT the grand architect of the world. If you were assaulted daily, you may not have been able to get that desireable education. You get where you are in part because society ALLOWED YOU TO.
    jjstraka34Grond0
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2017

    Donald Trump doesn't even understand the rudimentary BASICS of what is going on. Last night's vote WAS a 51 vote majority bill. The entire point of Republicans trying to rush this through now was to get it done before the recess so it could be done under reconciliation, due to rules regarding the budget. What in the hell is he even talking about?? Does the President need to locked in a room with a Best of Schoolhouse Rock DVD?? Maybe someone could draw him a chart in crayon. If you're a Republican voter who wanted Obamacare repealed, and you are looking for someone to blame, it isn't the Democrats. Look at your idiot king who doesn't have the first clue about how the legislative process even works.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    DreadKhan said:

    ...yeah, **** those kids born disabled, they ought to have chosen better! **** blacks too for that matter.

    PS this view is why people continue to **** on veterans. You are NOT the grand architect of the world. If you were assaulted daily, you may not have been able to get that desireable education. You get where you are in part because society ALLOWED YOU TO.

    This has to be one of the stupidest posts I have seen in a long time. Disability and ethnicity are not choices, which any sane, rational person would know, and are thus not subject to my comments. Also, I never claimed to be architect of the world, only the architect of my own life. No one else helped me get to where I am now--and, no, an employer deciding to hire someone is not them "helping" you but is an economic contract because they are offering you money in exchange for your labor and/or expertise.

    Society doesn't "allow" me to do anything, as long as I am not breaking any laws. I choose for myself the direction my life is going; I don't have to ask anyone's permission. In fact, I don't seek out anyone else's approval or permission--if I want to do x and x is not illegal then I am going to do x. No one else has to like it but their decision not to like my decision is, ultimately, not my problem.

    This, of course, marks the end of this particular discussion. You may continue it if you so desire but be aware that I will not.

    *************

    @jjstraka34 I think what he means is that he wants all legislation to be passed by only a 51-vote majority...maybe? *shrug* Sometimes it is difficult to discern what he is actually saying versus what he really wants. Anyway, some votes do require only 51 but others require 60. That is the way the system works, Don, so get used to it.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963


    Donald Trump doesn't even understand the rudimentary BASICS of what is going on. Last night's vote WAS a 51 vote majority bill. What in the hell is he even talking about?? Does the President need to locked in a room with a Best of Schoolhouse Rock DVD?? Maybe someone could draw him a chart in crayon.
    Even though Republicans have a majority in House, Senate, White House and Supreme Court Donald Trump is going to lie (shocking!) and blame this on Democrats when they weren't consulted and had nothing to do with these awful obamacare repeal bills that the Republicans keep coming up with.

    Republicans are not acting in good faith, they are not negotiating with Democrats. They are not even trying to pass a healthcare bill. Their objectives are to a) give tax breaks to the rich b) get rid of something that Obama did that helps people. That's it.

    These Republican ideas that aren't passing have nothing to do with Democrats. The GOP keeps dreaming up ideas to push through the worst possible thing for the people that benefits the rich by passing something with a simple majority. And then they haven't yet even passed that.

    As I said there is no better Republican healthcare plan than Obamacare. Obamacare is the best Republican healthcare plan there is. The next option is nothing or something worse than "failing obamacare". They could pass a slightly more liberal healthcare bill that covers more people but they don't want to do that, it wouldn't be significantly different than obamacare. If you go for something worse than obamacare, like something more market based then you get less people covered and it still might cost more, if you take away the individual mandate and employer based requirements then the cost for everyone will go up.

    We should not be shocked that Trump is lying at this point.
    jjstraka34DreadKhan
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    edited July 2017

    DreadKhan said:

    ...yeah, **** those kids born disabled, they ought to have chosen better! **** blacks too for that matter.

    PS this view is why people continue to **** on veterans. You are NOT the grand architect of the world. If you were assaulted daily, you may not have been able to get that desireable education. You get where you are in part because society ALLOWED YOU TO.

    This has to be one of the stupidest posts I have seen in a long time. Disability and ethnicity are not choices, which any sane, rational person would know, and are thus not subject to my comments. Also, I never claimed to be architect of the world, only the architect of my own life. No one else helped me get to where I am now--and, no, an employer deciding to hire someone is not them "helping" you but is an economic contract because they are offering you money in exchange for your labor and/or expertise.

    Society doesn't "allow" me to do anything, as long as I am not breaking any laws. I choose for myself the direction my life is going; I don't have to ask anyone's permission. In fact, I don't seek out anyone else's approval or permission--if I want to do x and x is not illegal then I am going to do x. No one else has to like it but their decision not to like my decision is, ultimately, not my problem.

    This, of course, marks the end of this particular discussion. You may continue it if you so desire but be aware that I will not.

    *************

    @jjstraka34 I think what he means is that he wants all legislation to be passed by only a 51-vote majority...maybe? *shrug* Sometimes it is difficult to discern what he is actually saying versus what he really wants. Anyway, some votes do require only 51 but others require 60. That is the way the system works, Don, so get used to it.
    Right, I'm the idiot because you clearly stated "No matter who you are, ***your circumstances, whether good or bad, are the sum total of the choices you have made in life.*** If you don't like your circumstances, then do something about it.", which clearly and unequivocally shows that you are victim blaming. Those kids thst get bullied to death? **** them, they should have chosen not to get bullied.

    Yes, society literally allows you to be successful at your craft. If nobody hired you or would do business with you, you would be, to be polite, screwed. This is still true today, even if it was more obvious historically. Guess what? Not only do you depend on social contract, there are literally people who are not judged based on qualifications. Assuming you already lack an 'ethic' name, try looking for a new job as Jamal Abdullah, see how things go. Its been proven already that you'll get less call backs, and if you get hired? Well, you chose to get paid less too over time.

    Edit: For the record, had you said 'life is what you make of the hand you are dealt' instead, I'd have nothing to say. Its still harsh, but kinda true.
    Grond0Balrog99
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    edited July 2017
    @Mathsorcerer
    There is an unfortunate truth which applies to everyone, including me: right now, you are living the life you chose to live. No matter who you are, your circumstances, whether good or bad, are the sum total of the choices you have made in life. If you don't like your circumstances, then do something about it.

    I think that the opposite would be closer to truth: your life choices are the result of circumstances beyond your control.
    Of course, it's not entire truth, but in my opinion something much closer to reality. Claiming that circumstances are dependent on choices is like pitting strawweight woman against heavyweight man in boxing brawl, and then saying that the outcome of the fight solely depends on training, skill and talent. Well, while there is a chance that woman will win (and if we are in the movie, that chance is something like 95%), man will have advantage he did not earn. He did not earn that he was born as a member of physically stronger sex, nor his bigger size.
    After all, it's possible for us all to be in this forum because our mothers did not abort us - and what kind of control would we have over that? ;)
    Balrog99jjstraka34DreadKhansmeagolheart
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    If you work twice as hard, or twice as many hours, as the guy next door, you're probably going to make a lot more money than he does. Maybe twice as much.

    But the average wage in South Korea is half that of the United States. Does that mean we work twice as hard as the South Koreans?

    It's kind of hard to say how much is the environment and how much is the individual.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    @DreadKhan
    @Mathsorcerer

    Unfortunately, I think both of you are partially right. You do have some control over your destiny but certainly things beyond your control can change circumstances in a hurry. We don't, however, get to choose what race or sex we are born with. Trying to make somebody feel guilty about either is just not productive. How you as an individual treat those less fortunate (or even those more fortunate) than yourself is the key factor in what kind of person you are.

    Having said that, no matter what cards you're dealt you'll have more success in life if you have a good work ethic, a sense of gratitude and a positive attitude. I think it's a lot harder to have those attributes when you're dealt a crappy hand in life, but that doesn't make it any less true...
    Grond0jjstraka34DreadKhansemiticgoddess
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited July 2017
    Balrog99 said:

    @DreadKhan
    @Mathsorcerer

    Unfortunately, I think both of you are partially right. You do have some control over your destiny but certainly things beyond your control can change circumstances in a hurry. We don't, however, get to choose what race or sex we are born with. Trying to make somebody feel guilty about either is just not productive. How you as an individual treat those less fortunate (or even those more fortunate) than yourself is the key factor in what kind of person you are.

    Having said that, no matter what cards you're dealt you'll have more success in life if you have a good work ethic, a sense of gratitude and a positive attitude. I think it's a lot harder to have those attributes when you're dealt a crappy hand in life, but that doesn't make it any less true...

    I always do a double-take when I agree with @Balrog99, but let me point something out. When he says "cirumstances beyond your control can change things in a hurry", the #1 circumstance that comes up is serious medical issues. And that is why having as many people have insurance as possible is so important for society. Getting diagnosed with something like cancer already makes your life nearly unrecognizable to what it was before. Not knowing if you can get treatment, or the thought that you may leave your family with insurmountable debt, makes life nearly unbearable. And all the spaghetti and chilli feeds in the world won't defer the cost of a long treatment. And this goes beyond the financial aspects. The worry over health insurance, especially for parents with children, is unbelievably psychologically taxing, and contributes to a deterioration of the mental health of the country at large. Every other country in the world looks at our health care system and says "what the hell is wrong with you people??"
    ThacoBellArtonaBalrog99Grond0
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