Two incredible differences: The Daily-show/Colbert Report/Samantha Bee arent intentionally gaslighting or lying to people for political gain, and they arent inciting people to violence.
Gaslighting?
I looked it up, apparently it means to manipulate someone into questioning their own sanity, but it just seems an incredibly odd choice of words to use in terms of politics.
Do you mean gaslighting as in, for example, denying some past event has happened? If so that hardly strikes me as a uniquely Trump move when the Democratic president before Obama's most famous lie was a denial of this very sort.
But you are right, these people don't lie for political gain, they tell lies for financial gain. If you want examples of political figures who have lied for political gain, we can use the past president, or the past presidential candidate, or the one before that, or almost anyone really.
Every President in recent memory has a lie or series of them they are famous for.
Obama's was his repeated claims of his signature healthcare policy allowing you to keep your doctor if you preferred to.
Bush was the dishonest selling of the Iraq War to the american people and other nations, at least IMO.
Clinton's was "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", we all know that.
Is it really all just Trump and right wingers?
Civil discourse didnt die when the left took to late night (Thomas Jefferson was doing this 200+ years ago), but the reality is that the game changed as soon as Trump was allowed to lie his way into the oval office and has numerous times suggested he wouldnt mind violence at his rallies.
I don't know what particular lie you think Trump told to get into the Oval Office but it strikes me as incredible that you would think this behavior was not common in politics. I wasn't even of age when Obama had his first term but I recall him "lying his way into the Oval Office" as well, if that's what you would like to call dishonest statements made on the campaign trail.
You are right he once suggested to "knock the crap out of" tomato throwers and, as far as I am aware, no President in recent memory has ever said that on the campaign trail.
Only one side made an entire political movement based on no more "political correctness" and the idea that feelings don't matter. You DO NOT get to then turn around and talk about how offended you are about the language people use.
Don't get it twisted, i'm not offended one bit. Merely amused at the notion that one could view Trump as a cause and not a symptom of vitriol in politics or the idea that left is somehow innocent of this behavior.
Political correctness is garbage and most people in the U.S seem to agree with me, at least according to Pew.
I looked it up, apparently it means to manipulate someone into questioning their own sanity, but it just seems an incredibly odd choice of words to use in terms of politics.
It has absolutely entered into the vernacular of american politics as it applies to the Trump Administration.
An example of Gaslighting in the current context is when Trump proclaims that the border separation was the result of a "democrat law" (It wasnt, was related to a court case and not to any particular law), and suggests that there's nothing his administration could possibly do about it... and proceeds to make an executive order that changes it. He made statements that attempted to change our perception of the reality of the situation, and then attempts to take credit for something he started. It's also highly (HIGHLY) abusive. Heaven help anyone who does something like this in a relationship...
Do you mean gaslighting as in, for example, denying some past event has happened? If so that hardly strikes me as a uniquely Trump move when the Democratic president before Obama's most famous lie was a denial of this very sort.
Dont confuse a pathological lie with the fact that not everyone tells the truth all of the time. Every politician lies, but none have ever lied at even close to the clip that Trump is. This is definitely a form of "whataboutism" or "Both sides". It doesnt work here. Our issue isnt that Trump is lying. It's how often he lies, and that a lot of people will believe anything he said.
Obama's was his repeated claims of his signature healthcare policy allowing you to keep your doctor if you preferred to.
Glad you brought that up. The difference between this lie and what Trump says is huge. I believe Obama *thought* this would be the case. It ended up not being in the legislation, and so it was absolutely a lie. However, the difference between that and some of Trump's lies (See I think it was @jjstraka34 's tweets from 3 days apart about the Goodlatte 2 bill) is just... gargantuan. It's intentional.
I don't know what particular lie you think Trump told to get into the Oval Office but it strikes me as incredible that you would think this behavior was not common in politics. I wasn't even of age when Obama had his first term but I recall him "lying his way into the Oval Office" as well, if you would like to call dishonest statements made on the campaign trail.
So you're saying Trump is "just like every politician", and that he doesnt lie any more or less than any president in the last 30 years? It seems like there are a LOT of fact checking sites that would fundamentally disagree with that statement. He lies more often, more provocatively. He distorts the truth constantly (The voter fraud thing, for example).
You are right he once suggested to "knock the crap out of" tomato throwers and, as far as I am aware, no President in recent memory has ever said that on the campaign trail.
He also said he'd pay the legal fees for anyone who got in a fight, if memory serves.
Alex Jones has apparently infiltrated the command bunker of the leftists and has let it be known that we are launching a Civil War on July 4th. I guess I really didn't have any other plans, but I would have appreciated more than 72-hrs. notice.
Glad you brought that up. The difference between this lie and what Trump says is huge. I believe Obama *thought* this would be the case.
You believe, but there's no proof, right? If we give Trump this same benefit of the doubt we could eliminate a full half or more of his inaccurate statements as his typical overblown, hyperbolic, "my crowds are the biggest crowds ever" sort of thing.
I mean, if you really want intentional, look at the Iran Deal. We are still uncovering untruths of the previous admin. Even WaPo, your side, calls it lying to new heights.
I wouldn't know who is the greatest liar of all time as i'm not keeping score more than anyone else honestly is, but I maintain that nothing of the sort under the Trump admin compares to lying to Congress itself (and the people) about the effects of a policy like this. So far at least.
I don't know what particular lie you think Trump told to get into the Oval Office but it strikes me as incredible that you would think this behavior was not common in politics. I wasn't even of age when Obama had his first term but I recall him "lying his way into the Oval Office" as well, if that's what you would like to call dishonest statements made on the campaign trail.
I don't take sides more generally, but in relation to Trump it is clear that he lies far far more than recent past presidents. I can understand taking the line that "he's a liar, but I still think he's doing a good job" - I may not agree, but that's a credible position. To suggest though that "they're all the same" seems to me incredible.
I don't know what particular lie you think Trump told to get into the Oval Office but it strikes me as incredible that you would think this behavior was not common in politics. I wasn't even of age when Obama had his first term but I recall him "lying his way into the Oval Office" as well, if that's what you would like to call dishonest statements made on the campaign trail.
I don't take sides more generally, but in relation to Trump it is clear that he lies far far more than recent past presidents. I can understand taking the line that "he's a liar, but I still think he's doing a good job" - I may not agree, but that's a credible position. To suggest though that "they're all the same" seems to me incredible.
Right, is that actually what I said though? I said neither vitriol nor lies were unique to Trump, and that I wouldn't pretend to know who tells the most lies but that his were not the greatest in significance. I don't think anybody, as i've said, can honestly claim to know who tells the most lies. I know media coverage of Trump is worse than average. I wouldn't conflate that with being more dishonest or corrupt than average.
But let's just assume for a moment I was completely skeptical. Is there actually a shred of credible evidence pinning him as the greatest liar in recent memory?
Although I am honestly sympathetic to the idea that he might be, I wouldn't pretend to have such evidence, and I wonder whether Trumps lies are simply more apparant compared to someone who is more cunning.
It's interesting that in a debate over the American president, the question under discussion is whether he's more dishonest than all other politicians, or just more dishonest than the majority of them.
You believe, but there's no proof, right? If we give Trump this same benefit of the doubt we could eliminate a full half or more of his inaccurate statements as his typical overblown, hyperbolic, "my crowds are the biggest crowds ever" sort of thing.
I mean, if you really want intentional, look at the Iran Deal. We are still uncovering untruths of the previous admin. Even WaPo, your side, calls it lying to new heights.
I wouldn't know who is the greatest liar of all time as i'm not keeping score more than anyone else honestly is, but I maintain that nothing of the sort under the Trump admin compares to lying to Congress itself (and the people) about the effects of a policy like this. So far at least.
It took me less than 30 seconds to figure out that the guy who wrote the article for WaPo used to write Speeches for Bush. Seriously. It's on the page when you click his name. So excuse me if I dont consider his word (as the author) "my side".
I'm going to time myself at one minute, and see how many different articles I can find that attempt to put a number on the lies that Trump as said.
Times up (actually, it wasnt - but I realized I needed to look at the articles. I edited a few, when I realized they were starting to reference each other)
Everything seems self referential, going back to this article. Suffice to say, almost no one seems to be making the argument that Obama lied as much as Trump has lied. At most, they're trying to make the "whataboutism" argument that "Hey! Sometimes Obama didnt tell the truth!".
Right, is that actually what I said though? I said neither vitriol nor lies were unique to Trump, and that I wouldn't pretend to know who tells the most lies but that his were not the greatest in significance. I don't think anybody, as i've said, can honestly claim to know who tells the most lies. I know media coverage of Trump is worse than average. I wouldn't conflate that with being more dishonest or corrupt than average.
But let's just assume for a moment I was completely skeptical. Is there actually a shred of credible evidence pinning him as the greatest liar in recent memory?
Although I am honestly sympathetic to the idea that he might be, I wouldn't pretend to have such evidence, and I wonder whether Trumps lies are simply more apparant compared to someone who is more cunning.
Also - I see this as a bit disingenuous. In your post you're saying "I dont think anyone can claim to know who tells more lies", and then say "Where's the evidence?" - You're setting up a request for information that you dont think is possible to know. How can anyone meet your standards, especially since you think the media is biased (and they're the only ones who have a vested interest in finding the information you want).
It took me less than 30 seconds to figure out that the guy who wrote the article for WaPo used to write Speeches for Bush.
And this means...the article is all lies and fake news? The government report being referenced is included and is, far as I can tell, accurately summarized.
You're setting up a request for information that you dont think is possible to know.
Indeed, but if the claim can't be proven, it shouldn't be being made, and this methodology
I'm going to time myself at one minute, and see how many different articles I can find that attempt to put a number on the lies that Trump as said.
But let's just assume for a moment I was completely skeptical. Is there actually a shred of credible evidence pinning him as the greatest liar in recent memory?
Although I am honestly sympathetic to the idea that he might be, I wouldn't pretend to have such evidence, and I wonder whether Trumps lies are simply more apparant compared to someone who is more cunning.
As @BallpointMan says there are plenty of fact-checkers demonstrating he consistently lies more often than other politicians. What sort of evidence would convince you if these don't?
I could understand the view that Trump is simply more honest in his dishonesty, i.e. he doesn't distinguish between the truth and lies, he just says whatever he wants to or what is expedient at a particular time and is perfectly happy to say the opposite a short time later. I would class though the extent of Trump's lies as pathological rather than normal - most people when lying will be conscious of that and attempt to make the lie credible (and stick to the truth if there's no advantage to lying).
It seems odd to me that anyone would believe anything Trump says without external verification. This article, apart from noting the frequency of Trump's lies, speculates on the reasons why people might accept them.
Indeed, but if the claim can't be proven, it shouldn't be being made, and this methodology
There's a very important difference between what you dont think can be proven, and what cannot actually be proven. When you require statistical proof of something, but discredit any institution that will attempt to provide those statistics ahead of time, this is what I see as disingenuous.
My process, while far from foolproof, does demonstrate that it's generally accepted that Trump has lied more than Obama. You'll find almost no one making the reverse argument.
It's actually all a bit like History. How do we *KNOW* something happened in the past? If you didnt see it yourself, how can you know Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon? You can look at historical records, and see what his contemporaries were saying. You can go look for physical evidence, and see what it says... but sometimes there's not a lot of evidence, and the reports are conflicting. Does that mean Caesar didnt cross the Rubicon? Not necessarily. You have confidence intervals. Enough people recited that this event happened, and their credibility is sufficient that we accept it as likely what happened.
This analogy works for now. When a sufficient number of sources suggest that Trump is lying more often than Obama, and almost no one is suggesting otherwise, it's reasonable to take this evidence at face value and say "By some value, Trump has lied a lot, and it appears to be significantly more than any other president in recent US history".
I just received my orders for the 4th of July assault. Apparently I am to report to a small town in Kansas, where we are going to bombard the local conservative resident's houses with massive pieces of tofu and cartons of soy milk shot out of a cannon until they surrender. Then we are going to take all their kids and put them in homosexual indoctrination camps, while we take all the adults away (in hemp ropes rather than handcuffs) where they will have the choice of either undergoing a forced sex change or working in an abortion clinic for the rest of their lives. We will say we have a plan to reunite them with their children, but we won't actually have one.
Alex Jones has apparently infiltrated the command bunker of the leftists and has let it be known that we are launching a Civil War on July 4th. I guess I really didn't have any other plans, but I would have appreciated more than 72-hrs. notice.
Those aren’t colourful fireworks you’re going to see.
They are explosive messages from the LGBTQ+ community lighting the sky up like their rainbow symbol and all the alt-right can do is sit their and watch! Even man’s best friend knows to cower and hide when they go off.
It's interesting that in a debate over the American president, the question under discussion is whether he's more dishonest than all other politicians, or just more dishonest than the majority of them.
At least he is dishonest to your face through tweets and tv, the other vipers do it behind your back.
As @BallpointMan says there are plenty of fact-checkers demonstrating he consistently lies more often than other politicians. What sort of evidence would convince you if these don't?
The methodology of Politifact, if you can call it that, is mere cherry picking. They do not investigate all claims by all politicians, and they do not investigate politicians equally. They focus on what they want to, when they want to. They do not even have the appearance of making accurate comparisons.
Under such a lack of restrictions I could make anyone look as honest or as deceptive as I wanted them to be, easily. All i'm asking for is evidence that is...well, legit. At least, some that uses a method that doesn't allow me to reach any conclusion I would want, regardless of what the truth is.
I can understand not liking Trump, or his rhetoric, but that's not the same as proof that he's exceptionally prone to lying compared to the average politician.
Trump though is right on one point, Europe does not spent enough on defence. The French government was often chastised for not respecting EU's rules on deficit (although it went back in line in 2017) but those countries often didn't respect NATO's rules on defence spending (2% of GDP not including nuclear deterence nor pensions).
I say all treaties should be respected in equal manners, France was wrong and had to get back in budgetary line, but now northern europeans have a lot of work to do on their defence.
However where Trump is wrong is on the American money being wasted. Plenty of European countries buy American products, sometimes over european competitors, sometimes even when the European product came before in technical evaluation (Poland ordered the Patriot despite the Aster being the clear winner on the technical competition and that's just an example). The USA have a "buy american" clause on defence industry, many Europeans don't. I mean people in aerospace industry still remember the KC-X procurement fiasco in the USA.
As @BallpointMan says there are plenty of fact-checkers demonstrating he consistently lies more often than other politicians. What sort of evidence would convince you if these don't?
The methodology of Politifact, if you can call it that, is mere cherry picking. They do not investigate all claims by all politicians, and they do not investigate politicians equally. They focus on what they want to, when they want to. They do not even have the appearance of making accurate comparisons.
Under such a lack of restrictions I could make anyone look as honest or as deceptive as I wanted them to be, easily. All i'm asking for is evidence that is...well, legit. At least, some that uses a method that doesn't allow me to reach any conclusion I would want, regardless of what the truth is.
I can understand not liking Trump, or his rhetoric, but that's not the same as proof that he's exceptionally prone to lying compared to the average politician.
If you reject Politifact on the grounds of political bias then what about FactCheck.org? As far as I can see everyone rates them unbiased in their search for truth. Their article "The Whoppers of 2017" starts as follows: "We first dubbed President Donald Trump, then just a candidate, as “King of Whoppers” in our annual roundup of notable false claims for 2015.
He dominated our list that year – and again in 2016 – but there was still plenty of room for others.
This year? The takeover is complete.
In his first year as president, Trump used his bully pulpit and Twitter account to fuel conspiracy theories, level unsubstantiated accusations and issue easily debunked boasts about his accomplishments."
If you don't feel information collected by others has any credibility you could of course just review Trump's own Twitter account. There have been plenty of examples of blatant lies on that posted on this thread, but there's lots more on his account.
As I said earlier I can understand someone saying they support Trump despite his lies, but I can't understand the view that he only lies as much as any other politician. In this respect, as in many others, he's setting new standards.
As @BallpointMan says there are plenty of fact-checkers demonstrating he consistently lies more often than other politicians. What sort of evidence would convince you if these don't?
The methodology of Politifact, if you can call it that, is mere cherry picking. They do not investigate all claims by all politicians, and they do not investigate politicians equally. They focus on what they want to, when they want to. They do not even have the appearance of making accurate comparisons.
Under such a lack of restrictions I could make anyone look as honest or as deceptive as I wanted them to be, easily. All i'm asking for is evidence that is...well, legit. At least, some that uses a method that doesn't allow me to reach any conclusion I would want, regardless of what the truth is.
I can understand not liking Trump, or his rhetoric, but that's not the same as proof that he's exceptionally prone to lying compared to the average politician.
I find Trump nowhere near the average politician.
He has more in common with late night infomercial hucksters.
He has never held office before he has no body of work to point out in politics other than demanding the central park 5 get the death penalty (they were later exonerated) and also he had some batshit crazy videos that were on YouTube where he complained about Obama or something . His business experience is terrible full of fails and bankruptcies. After all those fails he couldn't get anymore loans so he turned to Russian mobsters and apparently some other deals with Anthony Kennedy's son.
He has nothing in common with a common politician. He's much more willing to lie about everything big or small easily disproven or not. Examples of ridiculous lies are millions of illegals voted for hillary, he witnessed ICE clear towns that were under the control of ms13, he witnessed Muslims cheering on 9/11 in New Jersey, he said he'd release his tax returns, etc etc etc etc etc
It's interesting that in a debate over the American president, the question under discussion is whether he's more dishonest than all other politicians, or just more dishonest than the majority of them.
At least he is dishonest to your face through tweets and tv, the other vipers do it behind your back.
One does not exclude the other. Someone who lies so blatantly to your face is even more likely to do so behind your back.
There is no way of knowing that. I do agree though that all politicians are liars. Now the degree of lying can be debated. Like lying enough to invade a sovereign country and wiping out their leader. (Iraq, Lybia) I don't recall Trump asking congress to kill people in his or another country, yet. Hey there is still 6+ years for him to lie about that though.
It's interesting that in a debate over the American president, the question under discussion is whether he's more dishonest than all other politicians, or just more dishonest than the majority of them.
At least he is dishonest to your face through tweets and tv, the other vipers do it behind your back.
One does not exclude the other. Someone who lies so blatantly to your face is even more likely to do so behind your back.
There is no way of knowing that. I do agree though that all politicians are liars. Now the degree of lying can be debated. Like lying enough to invade a sovereign country and wiping out their leader. (Iraq, Lybia) I don't recall Trump asking congress to kill people in his or another country, yet. Hey there is still 6+ years for him to lie about that though.
That is a strange statement to make, considering the US-led coalition is currently doing just that: killing people in another country. Considering that Trump is your president, that means officially he commanded the recent strikes in Syria. And didn't he brag about this on twitter?
In addition to Syria the US military are also currently killing people in Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia and God knows where else.
It's interesting that in a debate over the American president, the question under discussion is whether he's more dishonest than all other politicians, or just more dishonest than the majority of them.
At least he is dishonest to your face through tweets and tv, the other vipers do it behind your back.
One does not exclude the other. Someone who lies so blatantly to your face is even more likely to do so behind your back.
There is no way of knowing that. I do agree though that all politicians are liars. Now the degree of lying can be debated. Like lying enough to invade a sovereign country and wiping out their leader. (Iraq, Lybia) I don't recall Trump asking congress to kill people in his or another country, yet. Hey there is still 6+ years for him to lie about that though.
That is a strange statement to make, considering the US-led coalition is currently doing just that: killing people in another country. Considering that Trump is your president, that means officially he commanded the recent strikes in Syria. And didn't he brag about this on twitter?
In addition to Syria the US military are also currently killing people in Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia and God knows where else.
All inherited and CIA involvement, big difference. Not arguing but very different than "Gaddafi bad" or "Weapons of mass destruction"
It's interesting that in a debate over the American president, the question under discussion is whether he's more dishonest than all other politicians, or just more dishonest than the majority of them.
At least he is dishonest to your face through tweets and tv, the other vipers do it behind your back.
One does not exclude the other. Someone who lies so blatantly to your face is even more likely to do so behind your back.
There is no way of knowing that. I do agree though that all politicians are liars. Now the degree of lying can be debated. Like lying enough to invade a sovereign country and wiping out their leader. (Iraq, Lybia) I don't recall Trump asking congress to kill people in his or another country, yet. Hey there is still 6+ years for him to lie about that though.
That is a strange statement to make, considering the US-led coalition is currently doing just that: killing people in another country. Considering that Trump is your president, that means officially he commanded the recent strikes in Syria. And didn't he brag about this on twitter?
Comments
Gaslighting?
I looked it up, apparently it means to manipulate someone into questioning their own sanity, but it just seems an incredibly odd choice of words to use in terms of politics.
Do you mean gaslighting as in, for example, denying some past event has happened? If so that hardly strikes me as a uniquely Trump move when the Democratic president before Obama's most famous lie was a denial of this very sort.
But you are right, these people don't lie for political gain, they tell lies for financial gain. If you want examples of political figures who have lied for political gain, we can use the past president, or the past presidential candidate, or the one before that, or almost anyone really.
Every President in recent memory has a lie or series of them they are famous for.
Obama's was his repeated claims of his signature healthcare policy allowing you to keep your doctor if you preferred to.
Bush was the dishonest selling of the Iraq War to the american people and other nations, at least IMO.
Clinton's was "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", we all know that.
Is it really all just Trump and right wingers? I don't know what particular lie you think Trump told to get into the Oval Office but it strikes me as incredible that you would think this behavior was not common in politics. I wasn't even of age when Obama had his first term but I recall him "lying his way into the Oval Office" as well, if that's what you would like to call dishonest statements made on the campaign trail.
You are right he once suggested to "knock the crap out of" tomato throwers and, as far as I am aware, no President in recent memory has ever said that on the campaign trail. Don't get it twisted, i'm not offended one bit. Merely amused at the notion that one could view Trump as a cause and not a symptom of vitriol in politics or the idea that left is somehow innocent of this behavior.
Political correctness is garbage and most people in the U.S seem to agree with me, at least according to Pew.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/20/in-political-correctness-debate-most-americans-think-too-many-people-are-easily-offended/
An example of Gaslighting in the current context is when Trump proclaims that the border separation was the result of a "democrat law" (It wasnt, was related to a court case and not to any particular law), and suggests that there's nothing his administration could possibly do about it... and proceeds to make an executive order that changes it. He made statements that attempted to change our perception of the reality of the situation, and then attempts to take credit for something he started. It's also highly (HIGHLY) abusive. Heaven help anyone who does something like this in a relationship... Dont confuse a pathological lie with the fact that not everyone tells the truth all of the time. Every politician lies, but none have ever lied at even close to the clip that Trump is. This is definitely a form of "whataboutism" or "Both sides". It doesnt work here. Our issue isnt that Trump is lying. It's how often he lies, and that a lot of people will believe anything he said.
Glad you brought that up. The difference between this lie and what Trump says is huge. I believe Obama *thought* this would be the case. It ended up not being in the legislation, and so it was absolutely a lie. However, the difference between that and some of Trump's lies (See I think it was @jjstraka34 's tweets from 3 days apart about the Goodlatte 2 bill) is just... gargantuan. It's intentional. So you're saying Trump is "just like every politician", and that he doesnt lie any more or less than any president in the last 30 years? It seems like there are a LOT of fact checking sites that would fundamentally disagree with that statement. He lies more often, more provocatively. He distorts the truth constantly (The voter fraud thing, for example). He also said he'd pay the legal fees for anyone who got in a fight, if memory serves.
I mean, if you really want intentional, look at the Iran Deal. We are still uncovering untruths of the previous admin. Even WaPo, your side, calls it lying to new heights.
I wouldn't know who is the greatest liar of all time as i'm not keeping score more than anyone else honestly is, but I maintain that nothing of the sort under the Trump admin compares to lying to Congress itself (and the people) about the effects of a policy like this. So far at least.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obama-took-lying-to-new-heights-with-the-iran-deal/2018/06/07/b75f72d2-6a7c-11e8-9e38-24e693b38637_story.html
But let's just assume for a moment I was completely skeptical. Is there actually a shred of credible evidence pinning him as the greatest liar in recent memory?
Although I am honestly sympathetic to the idea that he might be, I wouldn't pretend to have such evidence, and I wonder whether Trumps lies are simply more apparant compared to someone who is more cunning.
I'm going to time myself at one minute, and see how many different articles I can find that attempt to put a number on the lies that Trump as said.
Times up (actually, it wasnt - but I realized I needed to look at the articles. I edited a few, when I realized they were starting to reference each other)
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/01/politics/donald-trump-3000/index.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/05/01/president-trump-has-made-3001-false-or-misleading-claims-so-far/?utm_term=.6e998959b5f6
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html
I'll also look for Obama's
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/14/opinion/sunday/trump-lies-obama-who-is-worse.html
Everything seems self referential, going back to this article. Suffice to say, almost no one seems to be making the argument that Obama lied as much as Trump has lied. At most, they're trying to make the "whataboutism" argument that "Hey! Sometimes Obama didnt tell the truth!".
Also - I see this as a bit disingenuous. In your post you're saying "I dont think anyone can claim to know who tells more lies", and then say "Where's the evidence?" - You're setting up a request for information that you dont think is possible to know. How can anyone meet your standards, especially since you think the media is biased (and they're the only ones who have a vested interest in finding the information you want).
can never do so.
I could understand the view that Trump is simply more honest in his dishonesty, i.e. he doesn't distinguish between the truth and lies, he just says whatever he wants to or what is expedient at a particular time and is perfectly happy to say the opposite a short time later. I would class though the extent of Trump's lies as pathological rather than normal - most people when lying will be conscious of that and attempt to make the lie credible (and stick to the truth if there's no advantage to lying).
It seems odd to me that anyone would believe anything Trump says without external verification. This article, apart from noting the frequency of Trump's lies, speculates on the reasons why people might accept them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
My process, while far from foolproof, does demonstrate that it's generally accepted that Trump has lied more than Obama. You'll find almost no one making the reverse argument.
It's actually all a bit like History. How do we *KNOW* something happened in the past? If you didnt see it yourself, how can you know Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon? You can look at historical records, and see what his contemporaries were saying. You can go look for physical evidence, and see what it says... but sometimes there's not a lot of evidence, and the reports are conflicting. Does that mean Caesar didnt cross the Rubicon? Not necessarily. You have confidence intervals. Enough people recited that this event happened, and their credibility is sufficient that we accept it as likely what happened.
This analogy works for now. When a sufficient number of sources suggest that Trump is lying more often than Obama, and almost no one is suggesting otherwise, it's reasonable to take this evidence at face value and say "By some value, Trump has lied a lot, and it appears to be significantly more than any other president in recent US history".
They are explosive messages from the LGBTQ+ community lighting the sky up like their rainbow symbol and all the alt-right can do is sit their and watch! Even man’s best friend knows to cower and hide when they go off.
So the EU is a mini China in his eyes....
And LOL at the USA not protecting its farmers. American farmers are some of the most subsidied on earth
https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/agriculture/subsidies
This happened in Vancouver. I love it when people bring their political ideologies to work. It makes for a good chuckle for the rest of us.
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/restaurant-manager-fired-for-asking-customer-to-remove-make-america-great-again-hat-1.3995367
Also, is this considered fake news?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/30/reporter-resigns-after-false-tweet-that-maryland-shooting-suspect-had-maga-hat.html
Under such a lack of restrictions I could make anyone look as honest or as deceptive as I wanted them to be, easily. All i'm asking for is evidence that is...well, legit. At least, some that uses a method that doesn't allow me to reach any conclusion I would want, regardless of what the truth is.
I can understand not liking Trump, or his rhetoric, but that's not the same as proof that he's exceptionally prone to lying compared to the average politician.
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-says-us-risks-294-billion-hit-over-auto-tariffs/a-44485982
The EU unveiled phase 2 of its tariff plans, would Trump enforce his car tariffes plan the EU would answer with a 252 billions € tariff plan.
I say all treaties should be respected in equal manners, France was wrong and had to get back in budgetary line, but now northern europeans have a lot of work to do on their defence.
However where Trump is wrong is on the American money being wasted. Plenty of European countries buy American products, sometimes over european competitors, sometimes even when the European product came before in technical evaluation (Poland ordered the Patriot despite the Aster being the clear winner on the technical competition and that's just an example). The USA have a "buy american" clause on defence industry, many Europeans don't. I mean people in aerospace industry still remember the KC-X procurement fiasco in the USA.
He dominated our list that year – and again in 2016 – but there was still plenty of room for others.
This year? The takeover is complete.
In his first year as president, Trump used his bully pulpit and Twitter account to fuel conspiracy theories, level unsubstantiated accusations and issue easily debunked boasts about his accomplishments."
If you don't feel information collected by others has any credibility you could of course just review Trump's own Twitter account. There have been plenty of examples of blatant lies on that posted on this thread, but there's lots more on his account.
As I said earlier I can understand someone saying they support Trump despite his lies, but I can't understand the view that he only lies as much as any other politician. In this respect, as in many others, he's setting new standards.
He has more in common with late night infomercial hucksters.
He has never held office before he has no body of work to point out in politics other than demanding the central park 5 get the death penalty (they were later exonerated) and also he had some batshit crazy videos that were on YouTube where he complained about Obama or something . His business experience is terrible full of fails and bankruptcies. After all those fails he couldn't get anymore loans so he turned to Russian mobsters and apparently some other deals with Anthony Kennedy's son.
He has nothing in common with a common politician. He's much more willing to lie about everything big or small easily disproven or not. Examples of ridiculous lies are millions of illegals voted for hillary, he witnessed ICE clear towns that were under the control of ms13, he witnessed Muslims cheering on 9/11 in New Jersey, he said he'd release his tax returns, etc etc etc etc etc
Assuming Trump is my President? For shame.