Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Your favourite BG2 romance including the new enhanced edition characters?

13

Comments

  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,585
    Jarrakul said:

    There are a million counter-arguments I could make, but I'm gonna stick to the one that's demonstrably true. There is a drow goddess of redeemed drow. She's an intermediate goddess, which means that in a world where power is determined by number of worshipers, she's on the same level as favorites like Rillifane, Bhaal (when he was alive), and Helm. In light of that, it's hard to argue that non-evil drow are as rare as their detractors like to claim.

    Sounds like writers either not entirely thinking it through, or trying to make more "misunderstood good guys from a bad background." But whatevs. I don't dislike the drow, I just think that people read the description "evil race" and immediately think "I'm gonna make a good one! No, scratch that, an entire group of good ones!" because it's such an original and creative idea. Anyway, this is the second thread I've tried derailing tonight, and I don't really mean to, so I'll shut up.

    typo_tilly
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    edited December 2014
    Viconia
    Arguing about stuff that doesn't matter is what the internet is all about! What did you think it was about? Education? Sharing information? Piffle.
    Elrandir said:


    Xenophobia (racism doesn't really qualify in a world with such diverse races as D&D has) isn't good ever, but when you're someone who works to destroy evil and protect the innocent, a being from a race known for literally BEING EVIL is something you'd at least want to watch closely, if not imprison immediately, possibly even killing on sight. Writers try to make the D&D races like our world's races by humanizing them, but it's a world where there ARE absolutes. For instance, gnolls ARE disgusting hyena men with a sickening culture and truly evil souls. (any gnoll lovers can back off. I like them too, but read up on their culture. It's kind of horrific.) Drow are just dark skinned elves with a sickening culture and truly evil souls. Occasionally a good soul comes out of it, but the chances are in the 0.something percentages

    This is so good you should put it in its own thread. I 99 percent agree -- which is why I dislike it when monsters are humanized. In this fantasy world evil really does exist. The gnolls worship a real demon and they are born with real, evil souls. In this world killing gnolls is good because you removing real evil from the world.

    Drowz are different. Like gnolls, drow are also actually -- really -- evil monsters who worship a real demon but they are also different in key way: they are a corrupted people, they fell from grace. Because the drow were once a good elven subculture that divested themselves of goodness in return for power, the good drow are completing a revolution -- they are returning to their uncorrupted state.

    So, that why weenog bugs me but Drizzt and Viconia don't.

    oh @typo_lilly -- wot? not even a skunk romance? I mean that would be sweet right? :3

    Now returning to your regularly scheduled discussion of romantic pixels.

    Elrandirtypo_tilly
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    edited December 2014
    Jaheira
    Elrandir said:

    Sounds like writers either not entirely thinking it through, or trying to make more "misunderstood good guys from a bad background."

    You see lazy/bad writing when people play on common redemption tropes. I see lazy/bad writing when people resort to "they're just inherently evil so it's okay to kill them". To each their own, I guess. I'm just pointing out that, while the various D&D authors have definitely tended to use the "inherently evil" thing to describe a lot of races, that doesn't appear to be the case with Forgotten Realms drow.

  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,585

    This is so good you should put it in its own thread. I 99 percent agree --

    And I didn't even get an "agree", let alone a "like"? I'm hurt, @killerrabbit‌. I'm hurt. ;p
    Jarrakul said:

    You see lazy/bad writing when people play on common redemption tropes. I see lazy/bad writing when people resort to "they're just inherently evil so it's okay to kill them".

    Woah woah woah. Did I say it was alright to just kill them? No. It's never okay to strike at something unprovoked, (and I'm talking short term provocation, not "the race has hated us for years so when we see one we kill it.") and I said that in a previous comment.

    Evidence:
    Elrandir said:

    Now. Looping back around from my massive and incredibly off-topic tangent, I prefer more passive paladins who never strike first at anyone. If they are attacked they defend themselves. If someone they believe to be good is attacked, they will defend them. I play guardians.

    Also, I really do apologize to @Rhelna‌ for completely taking her thread off topic, and to all the other people who just want to read about love between pixels and code...

    killerrabbit
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702

    Arguing about stuff that doesn't matter is what the internet is all about! What did you think it was about? Education? Sharing information? Piffle.

    oh @typo_lilly -- wot? not even a skunk romance? I mean that would be sweet right? :3

    Now returning to your regularly scheduled discussion of romantic pixels.

    You get an "insighful" for using the word "piffle" and mentioning skunk romances. X3

    Elrandirkillerrabbit
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    Viconia
    Elrandir said:

    This is so good you should put it in its own thread. I 99 percent agree --

    And I didn't even get an "agree", let alone a "like"? I'm hurt, @killerrabbit‌. I'm hurt. ;p

    I have left a well deserved 'insightful' for you. Twice even -- because of your important correction to my point. These romances are not just a collection of pixels -- they are also a few lines of code. I know I've learned something.

    Elrandir
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Jaheira
    @Elrandir‌: So, I'm confused. Do we agree that Keldorn is a racist or not? Because that's really the endpoint of the argument I was trying to make. Not, mind you, that I think it would be bad writing for paladins to be racist. They're called to be perfect, but in the end they're only human. I just wish he fell aftewards, because regardless of Viconia being kind of an ass, she's not really hurting anyone or planning to hurt anyone, and he just kind of attackers her without provocation.

  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    edited December 2014
    Viconia
    *reminds self that discussions of racism in rpgs never end well*
    *casts stoneskin*

    In real life human 'races' don't exist outside of the minds of humans -- we are all homo sapiens with minor geographic variations in superficial characteristics. When you look at the genes of homo sapiens the variations count for exactly bupkiss and, besides, we have fewer variations than most other primates. Racists erroneously believe that 'races' do exist that people with ancestors from different geographical regions are like different breeds of dogs and discriminate against some people upon the basis of this belief. IRL, racists believe that race is a biological reality and that this matters.

    In D&D 'races' do exist -- humans and dwarves are different species. Thus the notion that races exist and this matters is therefore not 'racist' -- but you can still take exception to Keldorn's actions using different terms.

    *casts shadow door*

    Oh, and @typo_tilly . Many thanks! Pepe le pew has le moves! :3

    Elrandir
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Jaheira
    See, I would still argue that hating someone for their race alone is pretty racist. I mean, let's take a look at another popular "ism". Men and women are demonstrably different in certain ways, but someone who looks for differences where they don't exist, or who judges someone based solely or primarily on their gender, is sexist. In FR, racism takes on a similar form. Humans and drow are demonstrably different in a number of ways, but non-evil drow are far from unheard of, in spite of a culture that strongly encourages evil behavior. Killing someone who has specifically abandoned that culture for no other reason than their race is, frankly, ascribing a racial generalization without consideration for the individual. That strikes me as pretty definitionally racist, whether or not actual racial differences exist.

  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,585
    Xenophobia. It's xenophobia, not racism. Not much difference, but it's a difference. And yeah, Keldorn's a xenophobe. In some ways he has every right to, except for it's never "right". But there are arguments for why he would feel the way he does. Y'know, evil race and all.

    If you're trying to prove that Keldorn's a xenophobe, or, in your terms, a "racist", then yes. I agree.

    killerrabbitQuartz
  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749
    Neera
    Neera is so unconventionally funny. So yeah

    killerrabbit
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Jaheira
    I would argue that, since the different races are, you know, called "races", and since they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, that the term "racist" does in fact apply. Regardless, I'm not gonna split hairs over terms if we agree on the general idea.

    As for him having reasons... yeah, of course he does. So do most racists in the real world, although I'll grant that Keldorn's are better. The thing is, it's still wrong, whatever reasons he has, and while a lot of generally good folks have some understandable flaws, paladins are definitionally not allowed to get away with stuff like that. Which is why I think he should fall for killing Viconia. I'd love for him to be very confused at the fact that he just fell, but he should fall nonetheless.

    Ardul
  • T2avT2av Member Posts: 202
    Viconia
    Is race restriction romances Still there in EE?

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,851
    Viconia
    I picked Viconia but honestly it'd be impossible to pick between Viconia and Jaheira. Both very good and pretty realistic -- Jaheira's is especially realistic.

    LOL, the poll results really do show how generally superior the older writing is...

  • AedanAedan Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 8,325
    T2av said:

    Is race restriction romances Still there in EE?

    Yes.

  • IsabellaGrangerIsabellaGranger Member Posts: 52
    Anomen
    Oh, well, this post is long outdated already. But I just wanted to defend Anomen as well :lol:
    Pretty much everything's already been said by Ravenslight and the same happened to me. Like, ''Ugh, this dude is obnoxious. No way you're entering my party, farewell.'' But when I read he had a romance, I wanted to give it a try. And when I did, he became my favorite character, no question about it. He really grew on me, I didn't like him at first, but he was this vulnerable, that I just ended up caring about him :cry: His erratic personality indeed was unbearable sometimes, but his struggle against didn't feel forced at all, so I got to understand him better. And he improved a lot after failing his test (yeah, I prefer a thousand times CN Anomen, to be honest.), felt natural and actually began to be a nice guy. So, for me, that was the best romance. Probably because I've got a thing for ''failed'' characters as well, but still.
    I played Viconia's, Aerie's and Jaheira's romance as well, but only the first one going till the end. Out of the three, I only enjoyed Aerie's. I can't stand Jaheira, and I utterly hate Viconia. The latter is loud, slutty, obnoxious and annoying as hell. Jaheira is irritating, but at least she's decent. So, that's my choice, given that I haven't played EE yet :disappointed:

    RavenslightJuliusBorisov
  • sparrow13xsparrow13x Member Posts: 120
    Jaheira
    I want Viconia's romance to be my favourite but the way it ends in SoA always bugged me, and I've never made it to ToB with her yet because I have a habit of getting bored after the Underdark.

    Jaheira's feels the most organic to me personally, and I like the music. I just wish I could change her portrait back to her BG1 version...

    JuliusBorisov
  • SvarSvar Member Posts: 156
    Rasaad
    I actually didn't know that romancing was a thing you could do back when I played vanilla BG2, because I always played a woman and I never added Anomen to my party due to the fact that his manner immediately repelled me, so when I started playing BG:EE, I had no idea what would happen when I added Rasaad to my party. The whole thing really came out of left field for me. I, in my surprise, reacted emotionally to his advances almost as much as my character did. I was thoroughly charmed by the way he slowly turns from simply being a good friend to having a massive, poorly hidden crush and I think that speaks of a very appealing organic quality in his romance.

    Even now, after I've seen through other romances, Rasaad's still my absolute favourite, hands down. Looking at it from a writer's perspective, I think it was done extremely well in the way it comes on naturally and meshes with both Charname's and Rasaad's storylines. I also think there's a lot of complexity and potential for interesting symbolism in that relationship worth exploring. Add to that the fact that his personality is pretty much exactly my type and voilà.

    Anomen's romance strikes me as the antithesis of Rasaad's in many ways. I could honestly write a long essay about my objections to his arc. Some of them are narratological. Some of them are feminist. Some of them are intensely personal. That last one is a large factor in why my opinion here should be taken less with a grain, more with a whole shaker of salt.

    In terms of the romanceable women, I have to give my vote to Viconia, partly because I'm always down for anything that involves drow redemption, and partly because most of the others bother me in some significant way. Aerie's and Jaheira's romances feel utterly wrong to me. Hexxat's is just a mess (still infinitely better than Twilight, though). I've not done Neera's for BG2 yet, but in BG1, it came across like some teenager's stereotyped ideal.

    As for Dorn, I'm weirdly neutral about him. I'd probably have stronger feelings one way or the other if I was into playing evil characters.

    NonnahswriterJuliusBorisovNimranZaxares
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,202
    Jaheira


    Jaheira's feels the most organic to me personally, and I like the music. I just wish I could change her portrait back to her BG1 version...

    @sparrow13x You can change Jaheira's BG2 portrait if you put new portraits (they can be her BG1 portraits) into your override folder named
    JAHEIRAL.bmp
    JAHEIRAM.bmp
    JAHEIRAS.bmp

    sparrow13x
  • sparrow13xsparrow13x Member Posts: 120
    Jaheira
    bengoshi said:


    @sparrow13x You can change Jaheira's BG2 portrait if you put new portraits (they can be her BG1 portraits) into your override folder named
    JAHEIRAL.bmp
    JAHEIRAM.bmp
    JAHEIRAS.bmp

    Yeah I figured this out the other day, it made me so happy! I didn't actually have an override folder there for some reason but I just made one and it worked out just fine.

    JuliusBorisov
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,743
    Viconia
    do i really need to name drop who?

  • AerieAerie Member Posts: 74
    Aerie
    Obviously myself.

    Also bump.

    Aerakar
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,372
    Neera
    as the poll was resurrected i voted, neera.
    and the main reason of it, silly as it can be, is that i like very much the voice of the voice actress.
    but overall, including mods, my preferred romance is with tashia.
    among the official npcs i never romanced anomen, even if i did RP many times female charnames, RP me as a female i don't find his personality or portrait attractive at all, while some other male npcs could intrigue me.
    and i never did, and probably will never in the future romance hexxat or dorn, actually i can not even have in the party such a vampire or a demon worshiper as i always play in a good oriented way, even if i have a neutral charname.
    i can romance viconia, that romanced can change alignment, as i don't see alignments set in stone in the game, charname and 3 npcs can change it, and actually i like her romance.
    of the good aligned npcs romances i find the one with aerie (sorry my beloved one... :D ) the dullest, even if i like very much aerie both from a power gamer point of view, she is the epitome of versatility and power if properly used, and rp wise, as i like how she gains mind strength and confidence in herself as she gains experience. i almost always have her in the party, but i romanced her only once.

  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 495
    Jaheira
    I always vote for Jaheira, even though I always play a female PC and have to "cheat" it to get it started. I agreed with pretty much everything Julius said about her character, and would only add that she could have easily been modified to be bisexual by literally altering two or three lines of dialog and a romance check. Aside from I believe one, maybe two, love talks, her romance is well written for both male and female PC's.

    I chalk that up to vastly different levels of acceptance at the time BG2 was first released. Given how much flak BD got over SoD's characters, I imagine a bisexual Jaheira would have gone over like a lead balloon in the early naughties.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,299
    Jaheira
    Voted Jaheira. While I like Aerie as a personality and character more, Jaheira has the deepest and best written romance.

  • SkitiaSkitia Member Posts: 358
    edited March 5
    Aerie
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    as the poll was resurrected i voted, neera.
    and the main reason of it, silly as it can be, is that i like very much the voice of the voice actress.
    but overall, including mods, my preferred romance is with tashia.
    among the official npcs i never romanced anomen, even if i did RP many times female charnames, RP me as a female i don't find his personality or portrait attractive at all, while some other male npcs could intrigue me.
    and i never did, and probably will never in the future romance hexxat or dorn, actually i can not even have in the party such a vampire or a demon worshiper as i always play in a good oriented way, even if i have a neutral charname.
    i can romance viconia, that romanced can change alignment, as i don't see alignments set in stone in the game, charname and 3 npcs can change it, and actually i like her romance.
    of the good aligned npcs romances i find the one with aerie (sorry my beloved one... :D ) the dullest, even if i like very much aerie both from a power gamer point of view, she is the epitome of versatility and power if properly used, and rp wise, as i like how she gains mind strength and confidence in herself as she gains experience. i almost always have her in the party, but i romanced her only once.

    For me Neera has my least favorite voice of all romanceable NPCs, at first I thought it was audio quality but it may just be how I am receiving it. Even with the voice quality however she is second fave of the new romances behind Rasaad. I love Rasaad's Voice.


    Aerie would be my #1 however, I love her development over time, and the conflict with Haer'Daelis if you add him. (I like how Haer'Daelis picks the bad option that would end your own CHARNAME romance with her in ToB and they break apart.)

    I'll sinfully put Anomen as #2, Viconia as #3, Jaheira as #4, Rasaad as #5 Neera as #6, Dorn as #7, and Hexxat as #8. I want to put Rasaad higher, but the love of the old NPCs is too strong.

    gorgonzolaleeux
  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    edited March 5
    Viconia
    I voted Viconia as looking at this from a fantasy world and role-playing perspective, I best enjoyed the journey with her through TOB in the alignment change dialogues. This romance is more enjoyable if your rp a neutral or good aligned character. I also think she has the best transition if you did her romance in SOD as well. What I liked about this, is that it starts very small in SOD but is really the one that escalates to the potentially highest level in TOB.

    Jaheira is interesting because of the Harper quests, but honestly I found the first half of her dialogues annoying as she constantly talks about her dead husband. It's understandable but still not my favorites. Plus her TOB romance is pretty bland.

    Neera actually was my close second. I liked that you can carry this through BG1 and SOD. My only complaint is that there isn't much of a connection between her romance ending in SOD and continuing in SOA. Perhaps if the transition were written better, I'd like this better than the Viconia romance.

    Also if they had allowed the continuation of the Corwin romance from SOD to SOA/TOB, it could have been interesting as well. Perhaps it wasn't done because it felt like Corwin was the "canon" romance in SOD if there is such as thing, and Jaheira was to be the canon for SOA/TOB.

    Post edited by Shangeroo on
    gorgonzolaAerakar
  • SkitiaSkitia Member Posts: 358
    Aerie
    Despite the (Can I politely say terrible?) books, I don't really believe in canon romance. While I wish the other romances got Jaheira's treatment, Jaheira also has too much content and it could be cut to keep things in time. They did a better job in ToB keeping things more equal.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,299
    Jaheira
    I'd consider Rasaad's romance as the best if it didn't end in a complete diabolus ex machina. He gets it even worse than VIconia.

    ilduderino
Sign In or Register to comment.