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The more I play this, the more I feel like giving up.

InvictusCobraInvictusCobra Member Posts: 108
edited July 2014 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Hello everyone. So I'm making this thread due to seeing that Baldur's Gate I or II are considered the magnum opus of RPGs, be it old or new. I played the Enhanced Edition for a while and well... I felt overwhelmed by the sheer infodumping of the D&D system. I never, ever, touched a D&D game, be it computer or board game, and I just find it too confusing.I've understood enough by now to play melee,but that's pretty much it. I've reached Chapter IV using a guide for exploration and finding out where the side quests are, and don't feel like I'm having fun playing it. Now I'm a big Bioware fan, loved KOTOR I and II, played DA:O, (won't mention Mass Effect as it's different in terms of combat) and could handle the combat and mechanics, but BG just seems like a colossal endeavor. Ever since the Friendly Arm Inn I've felt like just quitting the game and returning to Skyrim or another RPG. Does it get better later on? Should I keep playing for the sake of it being "THE RPG"? Or just say "Screw this and all who say I'm dumb for not understanding or liking D&D."? Thank you for reading this.

TL;DR: After hearing no modern RPG compares to this game, tried it out and was overwhelmed by it's D&D infodumping. Reached Friendly Arm Inn and the game stopped being fun. I'm in Chapter IV and feel like qutting, even though I love Bioware and it's games. Should I keep going for the sake of it getting better or give up and admit D&D rules and systems are too complex and have no patience for them? Thank you for reading.
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Comments

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    What part of the rules seems hard?

    When I first started, I had, long ago, this http://wootgeek.com/pin/8872/ the ultimate Fantasy Pack, and I didn't even understand what HD or dice were. I thought a 2d4 was better than 1d10 because the 2 is higher.

    I didn't understand races had level limits.

    I went into Baldur's Gate relatively lost and at first struggled immensely. I enjoyed it though, despite this because I felt immersed in a way and soon I started to actually read the rules and things began to make sense.


    Granted, 2E D&D (or AD&D) can be very cruel, especially at lower levels. Gygax's own campaigns I hear were outright twisted.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Oh yeah, avoid dual classing until you've played a bit. Dual classing is pretty byzantine, and not easy to use imho... extremely easy to make downright bad characters!
  • InvictusCobraInvictusCobra Member Posts: 108
    Dazzu said:

    What part of the rules seems hard?

    Most of the magic and spells, as some descriptions I read just make me go: "Wait, what?"
    DreadKhan said:

    First playthroughs should be without a guide wherever possible... these leech fun. Badly.

    Well, in my opinion, guides only spoil the fun if you see every detail of the game on it. I just use it as a sort of compass a la Oblivion or Skyrim telling me where to go, since spending 2h searching for Brage or any other thing/quest for that matter isn't exploration or fun, it's a waste of time. I still fight all enemies and do all the dialogue and puzzles by myself.
  • InvictusCobraInvictusCobra Member Posts: 108
    meagloth said:

    Don't give up.

    That's kinda getting harder and harder as playing the game just makes me frustrated more than making me feel like I'm having fun and the fact that I'm not playing it haunts me most of the time now, so I can't play any game without feeling I should be playing BG D:
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited July 2014
    InvictusCobra said:

    meagloth said:

    Don't give up.

    That's kinda getting harder and harder as playing the game just makes me frustrated more than making me feel like I'm having fun and the fact that I'm not playing it haunts me most of the time now, so I can't play any game without feeling I should be playing BG D:
    Tell is what class you are, who is in your party, and what exactly you're having trouble with and we'll be able to help a lot better.
    Is there a particular battle you can't get past?
  • InvictusCobraInvictusCobra Member Posts: 108
    meagloth said:

    Tell is what class you are, who is in your party, and what exactly you're having trouble with and we'll be able to help a lot better.

    I'm a Human Cavalier with two points in 2h proficiency and 2h Sword and one point in Bastard Sword. My party consists of Jaheira,Rasaad,Neera,Imoen,Khalid and me. The problem is I don't know what exactly my problem with the game is, it just doesn't feel fun for me. That kinda went away during the Mines and Chapter III but now I feel like my level 3 party is ill leveled and equipped for Cloakwood.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited July 2014
    One thing that may help with the descriptions for spells is some understanding of the language used.

    If you see a spell or weapon that says it does 1d4 damage that means to determine the damage 1 die with the values of 1-4 on it is being rolled. So the possible amounts of damage are anywhere between 1-4.

    If you see a spell or weapon that says it does 2d4 damage that means that the game is rolling 2 dies that each have a value of 1-4 on them. Each dice then can get a value of 1-4 so together you are going to do anywhere between 2-8 damage from this.

    1 round = 6 seconds of unpaused real-life time
    1 turn = 10 rounds (60 seconds unpaused real-life time).
    5 turns = 50 rounds (or 5 minutes in real-life time). To make things even more confusing this is also the same as one hour in the game (you can check the hour by looking at the clock in game). Some spells will say they will last for a certain number of hours. This is referring to in-game hours.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,410
    First thing I would say is start over. Use a single class warrior (fighter or paladin/cavalier). Use all the tutorial elements of Candlekeep. Be sure you equip weapons you specialized in! This will make a huge difference on your effectiveness. Don't worry about learning everything at once; once you have the hang of combat, start figuring out thieving (Imoen) then spell casting (maybe Jaheira).
    You will never need to know all the spells; start with Cure Light Wounds and Command.
    Just play around with the others. It's okay if you have to reload a few times! We all have different favorite spells and tactics, find some things that work for you.

    There is no "right answer" on most of this stuff.

    And don't spend hours looking for Brage! The fun of the game is exploring and stumbling across stuff. When you hear of something like that, file it away. When you do find Brage, then you'll know what to do. That is how MOST quests and adventures work. There is only rarely a timer, and you'll know clearly when there is.
    Again, relax and enjoy the exploring, don't go rushing off without a clue. There are fun things on every single map.
  • kcwisekcwise Member Posts: 2,287
    Taking a break from the game for a while might not be a bad idea. When you're frustrated and/or bored with something continued play is likely to make that feeling more intense. After a break, you can come back and sometimes have a new perspective.

    There's another possibility: cheat. Use the guides around to activate the console and give yourself better equipment, or at the very least bump your characters up a few levels. That way, you'll have a much more forgiving experience as you figure out the mechanics. After a time, if you find yourself more comfortable with the mechanics and less frustrated, restart with a fresh character and set forth with your newfound knowledge to save the Realms.

    The other possibility is simply that BG isn't the game for you. Whether or not a lot of other people think it is great really doesn't matter, since it's supposed to be fun. If it isn't, why torture yourself? I can sympathize with your situation. Most of my friends think Game of Thrones is the greatest thing since miniature giant space hamsters, but I can't stand the books or the television series. I've tried, but it's just not my thing. Life is far too short to endure frustration and boredom with your leisure time.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    I don't feel like BG has much information, I think you never played Dwarf Fortress BTW.
    I won't call you dumb, nor I think anyone here (this forums have a pretty good community,like most of the IE games) would, the game is pretty difficult (only the first time, then it's easy), so most people will try to help and tell you that there are a lot of games that are even more difficult, have much more quests to search people you don't know their location (Planescape: Torment for example, that game is probably better than BG anyway), and have amazing shitloads of information (Dwarf Fortress, that game has literally (probably not but well...) a command for every key in the keyboard, and it weights 50 MB, just of code, since it's an ASCII graphics game).

    But don't worry, BG is the perfect balance of all that, KotOR II seemed too easy for me, your companions 'woke up' at the end of combat if they had died, being a Star Wars geek I can say this isn't unrealistic (considering the amount of medicines and drugs you can find in the SW universe... And that many injuries can be non-lethal), but when I saw that in DA2... I think that was enough to keep my hands away from DA, and go back to BG. Rogue-likes games are created to be difficult, challenging and with a permanent death system, Angband and NetHack (the ones I play), are extremely difficult, I think that only 1/3 (or even less...) of the people that played them actually won the game(s).
  • nosecretnosecret Member Posts: 92
    edited July 2014
    meagloth said:

    LiamEsler said:

    Skip BG1. Play BG2, seriously. It's a much better introduction to the series and the ruleset, and much more forgiving.

    Nonononono! Don't do this! It will completely spoil the entirety of bg1, story and gameplay, and if you think the spells system in bg1 is overwhelming... Well, there's over 300 spells available in bg2. You definitely want to play the story in order.
    BOTH of the posts are right (how's that for a paradox). Liam is right in that not dying constantly is more forgiving (though a new player will still likely die at least once in the introductory dungeon). Meagloth is right in that the number of spells by mid-game (when you should have all or nearly all of them available to you (or found via scrolls) is overwhelming.

    Invictus, try these - yes, they're old, but still relevant and HANDY. Preferably read in this order.

    http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/faqs/8566
    http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/faqs/9853

    Those were godsends for me way back when I started - I think they will help turn down the firehose.
    You could just as easily read DnD wiki's, but the fact Dan wrote those with BG2 specifically in mind makes them easier to consume.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Level 3 is very low for the Cloakwoods... the easiest way to get more XP is to explore a bit. You're lost and alone at the start of the game, exploring is pretty expected behaviour. Note, if you get farther away from the road (ie edges of the map) it will get VERY dangerous in some areas. In the name of all thsts Holy, dont go in the abandoned bridge until you're level 4 or 5. Its hands down the most frustrating dungeon I've ever entered in any game ever.

    I think EVERYONE hates Cloakwood until they've developed s good strategy to deal with the traps, and the poison. One tactic I regularly employ is a Potion of Freedom on a character with good stealth. Have him trigger every trap possible. I often use an invisibility potion here, to make it easier. Theres some gear you have to pick up on your firdt visit to the 'traps and poison spider' area (I think of this as 'horrible newbie death area', its brutal until you're tactically equipped), so try to find it. ;)

    Overall, Cloakwoods is my least favourite point in the game, and this is when the game starts actually challenging you. It'll get much harder, but more satisfying than anything in KOTOR.

    As has been mentioned, ranged weapons are POWERFUL. Consider making Khalid an archery based warrior, he's best that way.

    If you restart, try using Kivan, Coran or Shar-Teel maybe in place of Rasad. Hes not very beginner friendly imo. Different NPCs will change how the game plays.
  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    Give it another try. Bother reading the manual. You do not need much. Simple game mechanics, to get a grasp of... And the spells. You know the core mechanics, and the spells? Then you need nothing more, than any other rpg out there demands (regularly visit merchants, examine through their wares/services, etc).

    It is one of the hardest games in existence. Actually, the first game to create the term, "play it hardcore". Rules, rules, rules... Dice, dice, dice. The enemy is right next to you, but if you do not roll a good dice, you miss, even if your weapon is magical. You cast that badass, one hit kill spell? Enemy gets lucky, rolls enough to avoid death. Difficult, annoying, defies logic sometimes too, but that is that, and we love it. Or actually, we got to love it. At first, years ago, i was exactly right there where you are now, and abandoned it for the sake of diablo 2. Just because it seemed more straightforward and felt deceptively more satisfying.

    You can die a lot in 1. You begin super weak. Almost pathetic. In the original, you would kill firebead elvenhair once or twice, get those level ups, and begin the game easier. Now... well... they fixed that. Ah, and when you manage to level up, save/load until you get the maximum hitpoints. Or begin in core difficulty, and when you level up, set it to normal and get your max hp. But we could do worse. BG1 is far more survivable, than Gothic 2, for example (in which you begin even weaker and every battle is super dangerous). Get a group, explore, go after xp and good loot, spend points wisely, and there you go. General tactics of MMO apply here, too; warriors at the front to tank, archers/mages behind and casting/shooting, hybrids to protect the rear (clerics, druids) and heal/cure poison/cure disease, that kind of stuff. Correct formation, and nothing can go wrong; except a death that results into player's body chopped down into tiny bits (cannot ressurect), or an unlucky roll against a clever, timely, enemy spell thrown at your face.

    It might be overhyped, it might not be THE, RPG tm, but for many people, it is. And even if it is not, it is still a classic masterpiece, commanding enough respect, so as it was necessary to be remade anew.
  • InvictusCobraInvictusCobra Member Posts: 108
    edited July 2014
    Ok, first of all, thanks for all the tips and help, but if I may be allowed to get something about this game off my chest/confess, here goes (sorry if I ofend anyone who really loves the game):

    Since this Saturday, at 10pm, when I installed and began playing this game, nothing game related has been fun. Absolutely nothing. I try to play it, spend an hour tops and then quit, either frustrated or bored and just feel like sitting in a corner muttering “No more,please no more”. I try to play any other game/genre, I can't have fun because I feel that I should be playing this and am not a true gamer if I don't play this. All different games I try just make me rage more. My friends say it's because I'm too dumb for D&D and/or that I'm too much of a noob for it's difficulty. I went to the Steam forums, BG's Reddit and here. The 2nd and 3rd were nice to me and a bit helpful, but the game never became actually fun. It's not that it's battles are very hard (that I can handle), it's just that the game was never able to make me care about the characters or it's story and I can't take the villain seriously (wtf is wrong with that helmet of his?).

    Now I have two options: Just bear this and play the game until the end while cursing it and the world,hoping I might start enjoying it by the end and play BGII, or just say "Fuck it" and kick it so hard off my PC it will reach space and leave me with a smile on my face.Honestly, the second one sounds much more enticing.

    Overall, this game has not been fun for me. I though I might be in for a great game and adventure but, alas the only thing that came out of me playing this game was endless frustration and rage and finding out that I hate it and D&D with a blazing passion. I do not know if I will ever touch this again and if I offended any fan of BG and D&D in the process, I am truly sorry. Thank you for reading and have fun playing this game, because I sure won't.At least for now and in the near future.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    You might want to look into installing the NPC project. Its in beta still but it will at least flesh out the characters to the point that you might find it more interesting.

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/32379/bg1npc-for-bgee-prerelease
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    If it's that miserable, then don't play it. No ones making you. Bg2 is the one that get all the glory, you'll probably like that one more. Despite this, I strongly recommend you play bg1 before bg2. Even though the last book in a series may be the most intense and well written, you wouldn't read the series backwards, would you?

    The reason the game is so hard is that you are far to low a level. I would suggest that you have Neara learn the spell "protection from petrification" as many times as she can and that you take the party to this place:image
    Here you will find creatures called basilisks, that are very powerful, as they can turn you to stone like once every 10 seconds or something. PfP of course stops this completely. If you cast this on you and khalid(strongest fighters) then you will be able to clear the area of basilisks, making a huge amount of XP. You will also meet someone in that area that will help you, for a short time(he's a really great helper though).
    Also, there are two really great stashes of treasure hidden in Nashkel and the friendly arm inn. You want these:
    imageimageimageimage
    Remember you can press tab and that will reveal where it is.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    99% of all learning is through making mistakes.

    Smile each time you die!

    I will say this. I once for some reason put the game slider on idiotic hard by accident. It is easy to do. Normal difficulty is well, normal. Core rules can wait a bit.

    Also let Imoen attack everything. You can run away and raise her at the temple...

    Aah yes. I remember when I let Imoen do all the manly fighting while my Gnome ran away...
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,410
    Well its not for everyone! Seriously I was first drawn to BG because I already loved AD&D. So I only had to learn the game engine, not the mechanics. If what you're seeing isn't your cup of tea, that's fine. It does us no favors if you resent it!

    Ultimately, the AD&D game is about story telling. The rules facilitate the story telling. But if they remain opaque to you, its unlikely you'll ever be able to enjoy the tale.
    That is no slam or insult. Honestly, I find later D&D rules sets maddening and annoying myself. It may not even be a matter of understanding, just a matter of what feels right to you. You might feel differently if you ever played it PNP. But I'd say this experience is a bust for you. That's fine.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Wait, you dont like the villain?!

    "I will be the last... and you will go first!"

    *awesomegasm*

    Whats with his helmet?! GALLONS OF AWESOME! ;) I love the villain in BG1.

    If you dont like the NPCs, try going evil. Dorn, Edwin, Kagain, Montaron, and Viconia are pretty easy to gather, and crazy powerful. Xzar is VERY entertaining though, you can take him instead of Edwin. If he dies, pick up Edwin or Baeloth. This party is very powerful, and they all have some personality.

    From what you're saying, just try BG2 if you're still curious. BG1 came out during the transition in CRPGs, and is still at heart more like old RPGs than a new game. BG2 is much more 'new', and is quite railroady. You'll find it easier to play probably.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I feel the same way sometimes. It's a bit of a nightmare trying to quickly test the later parts of the game, when some of those early fights can be brutal.

    If what bugs you is the difficulty, setting the difficulty slider to easy is a good start. Equip everyone with ranged weapons, at least early on, and you'll have a much better time of it.

    Paladins get a lot of praise for being powerful, but in early BG, an elf ranger is actually a better asset, especially an Archer.
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