I always disliked the "I immune to level x or lower" mechanic. That type of monsters should have high saves and use spells to protect them self.
The same is for magic resistance. If something is magical (for example magic missile) and you are resistant to magic, MR should protect you. But when you the target of a fireball that should work, because the damage comes from fire not from magic.
To come back to the topic, a fireball should be able to hurt Rakshasas and Liches, but as powerful magic users, they should be able to cast the spells (or have items) to protect them from the fireball.
At least that is my opinion.
About the things you are doing for 3.0: - More config options are always nice - can't wait to see and use the new wizard kits (in my BG 1&2 run, almost done with IWD, had not much free time lately) - will you list the "Slightly improved various existing kits" changes? - Spellbender sounds fun, what does the kit do? - I'm very interested on the Wizard Slayer dual class kit (please give a sneak peak)
It's sad that you need to redo you "Proficiency Overhaul", but the new one sounds less complicated and less buggy I approve it very much.
Again, thanks for doing this awesome mod. I have a lot of fun with it in IWD!
I don't think it is a good idea to completely give up on your previous design of the proficiency system. There were some very nice elements to it. I propose that you organize it in this way:
- Characters start at proficiency zero. They receive more pips than normally, but can only assign 1 point in any group in the beginning. - Fighters could for instance start with 8 pips, while paladins and rangers start with 6 pips, priests and rogues 4 and mages 3. - Keep the 4 pip maximum and APR from pips. - Let Clerics be able to put pips in more weapons like long sword, axes, daggers and so on. - Allow rogues and priests to assign two pips in any weapon they can use, and three pips in their speciality depending on the kit. - Allow Clerics to assign three pips to their Favoured Weapon. - Warriors gain a new pip every 3rd level, priests and rogues every fourth. - Mages can't advance in weapon use beyond level 1. - Do away with scripts that add proficiency points.
What is the idea behind APR from pips kicking in later? And why is the APR from 3 pips given much later than the one from 4 pips?
What I think is a bit sad about going away from a 4 pip system is, that it removes some of the uniqueness of e.g. assassins and skalds getting mastery. Even if they are getting High Mastery in selected weapons now instead, it is more expensive and will take them much longer time to reach.
Thank you @subtledoctor for the detailed explanation. It makes a lot of sense, and I am looking forward to playtesting it. I think collapsing some weapon groups will make the shortage of pips, that I also find very noticeable in vanilla, less of a problem. It is too bad you have to give pips at constant intervals, and can't add in an extra one here and there. It might be a bit power-gamey, but I lean towards that I would rather have too many than too few pips.
I really hope that you can fix the bug with advancing beyond your current class limit in a weapon, if you dual from a fighter. I have always hated that and it is one of the major reasons for why I don't dual.
A few more questions - Will Clerics be able to specialize in e.g. axes, or are they limited to blunt weapons? I really like having them being able to use weapons like axes, long swords, bastards swords and so on.. Giving Mastery to Clerics chosen weapon is a great idea. - Could you write a bit about your changes to mages? - How do you deal with multiclasses? Can a fighter/thief get grandmastery, high-mastery or mastery? What about a fighter/cleric or a fighter/mage?
Spell Revisions, Spell Revisions, Spell Revisions. Demi needs to release SRv4 because I basically do all my testing with SR pre-installed. Monster Summoning, proper True Sight and NonDetection... the 3.0 specialist kit revisions are only a shadow of their true potential if you don't pair them with SR.
Also Item Revisions. SCS for AI, Refinements for HLAs... other kit mods too. I have code that specifically looks for and adds options for Divine Remix, Faerunian Monastic Orders, and Frosty Journey.
Btw I keep a 'to-do list' text file on my phone, I tick things off as I complete them. I have it all the way back to v0.2 from last year when this mod had nothing but druid shapechanges. The move from 2.9 to 3.0 probably won't seem too drastic to players, a couple more options and some refinements. But to give a sense of the work put into it, here is the to-do list for the jump from 1.6 to 2.0 back in December:
- put out v2........................................./
And here is the current to-do list for the jump from 2.9 to 3.0:
- all files lower-case in .tp2................/ - all components = .tpa files............../ - fix NPC kit assignments................../ - re-do the whole prof. overhaul......../ -- change base component............../ -- change descriptions....................../ -- change warrior kits......................../ -- change rogue kits........................../ -- change cleric kits........................../ -- change druid kits........................../ -- change base/mod NPCs.............../ -- add DC fighter kit........................../ -- add DC ranger kit........................../ -- change NPC components........ - re-tweak druid shapechanges........./ -- druid = wolf, rat, lion, bear............/ -- avenger = spider, wyvern, troll....../ -- add elementalist kit......................./ -- negative resists to spider, rat......../ -- auto-invis for small spider, rat......./ - kensai into warrior tweaks.............../ - monks to separate component......./ - make saving throw component......./ -- save bonus with death ward........./ -- vamp drain = save vs. death........./ -- other undead = save vs. death..../? - fix boon of lathander......................../ - fix lore bonuses.............................../ - fix permanent luck effect................./ - luck bonus for Luckriders................/ - luck bonus for Swashies................../ - luck bonus for Corsairs..................../ - luck bonus for Gallants..................../ - luck bonus for Misadventurers......../ - change Loremaster description......./ - Find Traps for Loremaster................/ - divinations for Loremaster.............../ - extra spells for Loremaster............../ - add spellbender kit........................../ -- make spells & .2da files................./ -- add kit & files................................./ -- add descriptions............................/ - remake Wizard Slayer....................../ -- w/ save bonuses.........................../ -- w/ Shout/Deafness......................../ -- w/ miscast on melee...................../ -- make abilities bypass MR............./ -- add fighter /thief option................./ -- edit descriptions............................/ ... Tweak wizard kits: - separate crafting component........../ - *no opposition schools*.................../ - fix xx_list_sr for MS spells.............../ - replace planetar w/ elemental........../ - planetar instead of deva at lvl 30...../ Diviner = ............................................/ -- innate Contingency......................../ -- at 11th lvl, load 2 spells................./ -- luck bonus...................................../ -- lore bonuses................................../ -- backstab immunity......................../ -- add divination spells in CLAB......./ Invoker = .........................................../ -- + fire/elec/cold/magic damage...../ -- add invocation spells in CLAB....../ Illusionist = ......................................../ -- Sanctuary, more priest spells......../ -- permanent SR NonDetection......../ -- block nondetection scroll use......./ - give illusionist Shadow Step............/ -- add illusion spells in CLAB............/ Transmuter = ...................................../ -- regeneration spells......................../ -- brew potions................................./ -- Form Stability................................/ -- add alteration spells in CLAB......../ Abjurer = ............................................/ -- .EFF for auto Spell Shield............../ -- separate spells for non-EE............/ -- block scrolls usability..................../ -- unblock scroll use!......................../ -- add abjuration spells in CLAB......./ Enchanter = ......................................./ -- Charm/Sleep immunity................../ -- Aura of save vs. spell penalty......../ -- craft wands..................................../ -- add enchant spells in CLAB........../ Conjurer = ........................................./ -- non-SR: MS I-III as innates.........../ -- SR summons, 1 level lower.........../ -- block scrolls usability..................../ -- unblock scroll use!......................../ -- add conjuration spells in CLAB...../ Necromancer = ................................./ -- sole access to Necromancy........../ -- innate Touch spells......................../ -- add necro spells in CLAB............../ - improve Larloch's Drain................../ - improve Ray of Enfeeblement........./ - remove Anticipation cantrip............./ - improve Bedazzle cantrip................/ - improve Stiffen Bones cantrip........./ - improve Protective Shell cantrip....../ - improve Earthen Grasp cantrip......../ - nerf Edwin's necklace....................../ - use kreso's tweak for Deflections..../ ... .ini options: - warriors: kits_no_tweaks................./ - warriors: replace_wizard_slayer......./ - warriors: change_kensai................../ - rogues: thieves_no_bards................/ - rogues: bards_no_thieves................/ - divines: paladin_names_only.........../ - wizards: spell_battle_changes........./ ... from testing: - fix necromancer hand BAMs.........../ - fix equipped prof for shambler........./ - give natural form for shambler........./ - improve fire elemental form............./ - fix giant spider form........................./ - no extra spells for Bladesinger....../? - add Valygar = F/T Wiz Slayer.........../ - add Nalia = Spellbender.............. - rbarb gets Quickstride if present... - use barb rage for berserker.......... -- no Maze/Drain immunity........ -- +1/2 APR............................. -- disable spellcasting............. -- save vs. breath penalty......... - test backstab immunity on TOB... -- give to rbarb if works................. - SR animal summons to Meister.... - SR animal summons to Baervan... - reduced spells for Harrier............ - test Bladesinger.......................... -- fix d5_blad1............................. - test Spellbender.......................... - update readme........................... -- prof overhaul........................... -- warrior tweaks......................... -- rogue tweaks.......................... -- cleric restricted spells............. -- druid tweaks........................... -- wizard tweaks.........................
- put out v3.0...................................
The earlier one isn't as specific so it's not quite apples-to-apples... but even so, it's just a massive difference.
Oh, where might I find the current version of Spell Revisions? Also, does it work with IWD:EE or just BG:EE? I usually use IWD:EE as my testing grounds for mods and such.
@subtledoctor I have given your mod some more thoughts, that I would like to share with you. I am sure you are ecstatic
- Is there a flag or something that can be given to sequencers and contingencies so that they can't be prepared in combat? I think it is important that they can't be spammed every round. - It seems to me, that some of the Cleric kits are much stronger than others. Especially Dark Cloak of Shar stands out as being too weak, with only one cast of a few mediocre/weak mage spells pr day. Contrast this with Mistwalker of Leira which gets a good mage spell each level and even Project Image (!!) at level 7. It is mainly Shar that is noticeably weak, but Malar and Baervan might also do with a small buff. - Both Shar and Sune specialize in daggers. I am not sure if this is strictly lore, but gameplay wise I would like them to differ in that respect. - Is it doable to split up the Paladin part and the Cleric part of Divine Class Tweaks into seperate components? It would make compability with KR easier, even if that is not your goal currently. - Following that line of thought: Do the original Cleric kits also get a favoured weapon?
- Sequencers: Well that's what I get for not having time to play the game and merely theorycraft Luckily we agree ^^ As an addendum, can you use sequencers immediately once you find the scroll or is there a level requirement somehow?
- Mistwalkers: I do get the difference between innates and extra spells. But clerics don't exactly lack spell slots and the spells mistwalkers get are so much better than Shars' (Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, Project Image are among the best).
I do not think that Mistwalkers are owerpowered exactly, but Shar really needs a buff in my opinion. Tymora get's better spells and more castings. Spells like Blur, Ice Storm (?), Secret Word, Phantom Blade, Contingency (?), Power Word Silence might be other possibilities?
Once again I really like a lot of your changes and this mod looks very promising. I am eagerly awaiting release of V. 3.0
Congratulations with the new release @subtledoctor - it looks very promising and interesting!
I have a problem when trying to install though. I get the error message: "[SETUP-SOB.TP2] not found". I unpacked the zip archive, and then copied the files to the 00783 folder. Any ideas?
So my little update thing didn't tell me that there were new posts in this thread. I just chanced upon it while looking at recent discussions.
Anyway.
YEAHHHH THIS MOD IS SO HYPE! Thanks for releasing v3! Time to go and install TnB and this to IWD:EE and begin my run of that game alongside my RP run of BG:EE! I'll just wait for the public release of spell revisions and pick that up when I can. The hype is so real! n_n
I only check the forums to see the progress of Adventure Y and this mod. While I completely trust your creativity as I'm always in awe with each and every changes, I couldn't help but notice the Shadow Step ability for Illusionists. I don't think an Illusionist necessarily dabbles with the Shadow Realm. It doesn't help that I'm not a fan with the way the said ability works i.e. it works like a nerfed Time Stop - it doesn't make much sense to me. I'm not a lore expert so I'm not so sure either, but it somewhat bothers me.
@Ardul I forgot to change the .exe file! rename it to "setup-scales_of_balance.exe" and it should work. (I test on a Mac so a little thing like that got right by me. I'll re-upload with the correct file name.)
@Illustair I gave Illusionists permanent NonDetection first, then made a bunch of abilities for the other specialists, and then it seemed like Illusionists needed something extra and Shadowstep was fairly easy to adapt. It was a last minute thing.
I agree that it's kind of like Dimension Door, and you could make an argument that it's more appropriate for Conjurers or Transmuters. But on the other hand Illusionists have spells like Demishadow Monsters and Shades, so shadow-based magic is within their field of expertise.
I'm all ears - if you or anyone suggests something good, I won't hesitate to change it. I'm just a bit burnt out and can't think of another good ability at the moment.
I like the idea of illusionists getting shadow step. Doesn't the shadow-weave give strength to necromancy, illusion, and. . . another school I can't remember atm?
@subtledoctor oh that worked awesome. It skips the Weapon Proficiency overhaul though, and the Divine Class tweaks won't install either. I changed paladins, spell battle changes and Wizard HLA to 0 in the ini.
Edit: This also happens on a clean install of BG:EE, so it seems to be something with the component.
Edit II: Looking at the install file, the only thing noticeable is that the component requires ToBex.. Is that a problem for EE?
@subtledoctor nah, if you don't mind, and considering it's actually not a big deal to me, I don't mind also. Although I could somewhat see the connection, shadow and all, it's just like what I said, not a fan of the "nerfed Timestop that doesn't make sense why it acts like that." Perhaps after all, that is mainly the reason, and not so much on "doesn't necessarily dabble with Shadow Realm" that I figured would be debatable. Just a personal preference, not a big deal. Just thought I should ask. But I'd tell you if I can think of something as a possible replacement.
Whenever I install Tome and Blood and then Scales of Balance in IWD:EE I get this error message with the wizard changes Guess I'll do my run of IWD:EE without TnB for now I suppose.
Comments
That type of monsters should have high saves and use spells to protect them self.
The same is for magic resistance. If something is magical (for example magic missile) and you are resistant to magic, MR should protect you. But when you the target of a fireball that should work, because the damage comes from fire not from magic.
To come back to the topic, a fireball should be able to hurt Rakshasas and Liches, but as powerful magic users, they should be able to cast the spells (or have items) to protect them from the fireball.
At least that is my opinion.
About the things you are doing for 3.0:
- More config options are always nice
- can't wait to see and use the new wizard kits
(in my BG 1&2 run, almost done with IWD, had not much free time lately)
- will you list the "Slightly improved various existing kits" changes?
- Spellbender sounds fun, what does the kit do?
- I'm very interested on the Wizard Slayer dual class kit (please give a sneak peak)
It's sad that you need to redo you "Proficiency Overhaul", but the new one sounds less complicated and less buggy
Again, thanks for doing this awesome mod. I have a lot of fun with it in IWD!
Enjoyed the revised mage kits you have planned, look forward to trying those.
- Characters start at proficiency zero. They receive more pips than normally, but can only assign 1 point in any group in the beginning.
- Fighters could for instance start with 8 pips, while paladins and rangers start with 6 pips, priests and rogues 4 and mages 3.
- Keep the 4 pip maximum and APR from pips.
- Let Clerics be able to put pips in more weapons like long sword, axes, daggers and so on.
- Allow rogues and priests to assign two pips in any weapon they can use, and three pips in their speciality depending on the kit.
- Allow Clerics to assign three pips to their Favoured Weapon.
- Warriors gain a new pip every 3rd level, priests and rogues every fourth.
- Mages can't advance in weapon use beyond level 1.
- Do away with scripts that add proficiency points.
What I think is a bit sad about going away from a 4 pip system is, that it removes some of the uniqueness of e.g. assassins and skalds getting mastery. Even if they are getting High Mastery in selected weapons now instead, it is more expensive and will take them much longer time to reach.
I really hope that you can fix the bug with advancing beyond your current class limit in a weapon, if you dual from a fighter. I have always hated that and it is one of the major reasons for why I don't dual.
A few more questions
- Will Clerics be able to specialize in e.g. axes, or are they limited to blunt weapons? I really like having them being able to use weapons like axes, long swords, bastards swords and so on.. Giving Mastery to Clerics chosen weapon is a great idea.
- Could you write a bit about your changes to mages?
- How do you deal with multiclasses? Can a fighter/thief get grandmastery, high-mastery or mastery? What about a fighter/cleric or a fighter/mage?
- Is there a flag or something that can be given to sequencers and contingencies so that they can't be prepared in combat? I think it is important that they can't be spammed every round.
- It seems to me, that some of the Cleric kits are much stronger than others. Especially Dark Cloak of Shar stands out as being too weak, with only one cast of a few mediocre/weak mage spells pr day. Contrast this with Mistwalker of Leira which gets a good mage spell each level and even Project Image (!!) at level 7. It is mainly Shar that is noticeably weak, but Malar and Baervan might also do with a small buff.
- Both Shar and Sune specialize in daggers. I am not sure if this is strictly lore, but gameplay wise I would like them to differ in that respect.
- Is it doable to split up the Paladin part and the Cleric part of Divine Class Tweaks into seperate components? It would make compability with KR easier, even if that is not your goal currently.
- Following that line of thought: Do the original Cleric kits also get a favoured weapon?
- Mistwalkers: I do get the difference between innates and extra spells. But clerics don't exactly lack spell slots and the spells mistwalkers get are so much better than Shars' (Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, Project Image are among the best).
I do not think that Mistwalkers are owerpowered exactly, but Shar really needs a buff in my opinion. Tymora get's better spells and more castings. Spells like Blur, Ice Storm (?), Secret Word, Phantom Blade, Contingency (?), Power Word Silence might be other possibilities?
Once again I really like a lot of your changes and this mod looks very promising. I am eagerly awaiting release of V. 3.0
I have a problem when trying to install though. I get the error message: "[SETUP-SOB.TP2] not found". I unpacked the zip archive, and then copied the files to the 00783 folder. Any ideas?
So my little update thing didn't tell me that there were new posts in this thread. I just chanced upon it while looking at recent discussions.
Anyway.
YEAHHHH THIS MOD IS SO HYPE! Thanks for releasing v3! Time to go and install TnB and this to IWD:EE and begin my run of that game alongside my RP run of BG:EE! I'll just wait for the public release of spell revisions and pick that up when I can. The hype is so real! n_n
Edit: This also happens on a clean install of BG:EE, so it seems to be something with the component.
Edit II: Looking at the install file, the only thing noticeable is that the component requires ToBex.. Is that a problem for EE?
Guess I'll do my run of IWD:EE without TnB for now I suppose.