@biffbamboombap It's not SoB. You need to apply Modmerge to your game (I assume it is from GOG or Steam?) before installing Weidu mods.
There is a stickied thread on Modmerge in this forum.
Thanks for the quick reply!
I'm going to try that, and I'm sure you're right and it will work, but I'm curious to ask one thing (for science): why would I need mod merge if it's the only mod I have installed? I'm interested in the technical side of that. Is Siege of dragonspear being considered a conflicting mod?
Regarding Demibard kits (particularly Hexblade) [M&G obv] why they don't get their first level specialization for high Int while other warrior kits and multi class warriors get it.
Regarding Demibard kits (particularly Hexblade) [M&G obv] why they don't get their first level specialization for high Int while other warrior kits and multi class warriors get it.
They should. Did you install SoB after MnG?
No idea, its BWS, I guess since it doesn't work I did
Does the extra equipping effect (*cough*Belm) outweigh simpler considerations like to-hit bonuses? Should SWS be +1 APR with specialization? Then the two styles would simply trade
(thac0 bonus + AC bonus)
vs.
(thac0 penalty + extra equipping effect)
Why not remove speed weapons from equation? Much easier to balance few weapons around system instead of balancing whole system around them.
And I'm not talking about complete removal, just change. Changing from permanent effect to on-hit-chance should make balancing weapon styles easier.
@Zerguu can you use NI, or just find in your override folder and open with a text editor, d5fgalla.2da? And see if it has entries for AP_D5IPRF4 and AP_D5IPRF5?
There is also something strange going on with extra attacks. Plain Fighter with **** in Greatswords gains 4 attacks (17 lvl) while other fighters like Cavalier and Hexblade with *** gain only 2 attacks. It seems that Fighter gets extra 0.5 attack and other warriors loose 1 attack. Is it intended?
Further investigation found that plain Fighter without equipped weapon have 2,5 attack. I assume this is it.
It seems something to do with ToB, as soon as I transfer save from BG1 to ToB figter gets 1.5 additional base attack
Also Corsair's Swashbuckling grants additional 1 attack. Is it intended?
I've tried re-equipping and changing weapons, but it keeps coming up with 3/2 attacks.
Unfortunately this is going to be counterproductive. You need to equip a single-handed weapon, then have the game clock running, and wait for six seconds of game time to pass. Then the extra .5 APR will kick in.
Switching weapons a lot will make this hard to keep up. Switching from ranged to melee, it will take six seconds before your APR is corrected. Think of it like a momentum kind of thing - you need to get going a bit before you get the full benefit of the fighting style.
(Unfortunately this is the only possible way to code it - I've put in feature requests for Beamdog to extend certain effects to make it cleaner, we'll see what happens with the 2.4 patch.)
Any idea how is this going to work in multiplayer ? I have experience that similar stuff results in weird OOTS issues, resulting in different displayed values for everyone and in the end nobody being sure if it works or not.
Cool news about the APR corrections, and the 1-handed light crossbows. I never thought about that one but it makes perfect sense once it's been pointed out to you.
Here's a mod request for your consideration: Subdivide Component 121(Weapon Proficiency Overhaul) into its constituent parts to allow players to pick and choose which ones to install. I love the Greatswords category, and the spear/halberd one will breathe new life into neglected proficiencies, and the club/mace makes perfect sense, and the singular Bows proficiency makes sense even if it perhaps hands a bit too much power to single-class thieves; but the other weapon proficiencies I'd like to leave in the vanilla version or use the Tweaks Anthology versions (the wakizashi/katana group and the short sword/ninja-to group) instead.
General feats are great idea, especially if they would benefit from high INT. If you do that, I would suggest to change bonus wizard spells from INT into feats. This would help to balance multiclasses - i.e. Fighter/Mage would have to actually make a meaningful choice between being better fighter or caster.
Proficiencies: I am all for going wide instead of dumping all stars into one category asap, but i would not cut out the 5th pip. I like progression trough the whole saga, so the later you reach proficiency cap the better. Grand mastery really sounds like something that should belong to HLAs instead what can random veteran mercenary reach on level 9.
Styles: Not being able to pick styles with pips sounds good (currently I basically auto pick 1-2 styles on level 1). However consider decreasing the number of starting pips - with collapsed weapon categories and no styles there will be much less meaningful choices to make. For example wizards can currently pick 4 out of 5 options on level 1, which feels weird.
Draft would look like this:
Arcane caster - Can become only proficient(*) with clubs, daggers, xbows, quarterstaffs and slings (maybe also short swords?). Starts with 3 pips, gain none with leveling.
Cleric - Can specialize (**) with deity favored weapon, otherwise only proficient (*) with the rest. Starts with four pips, gains one every 5th level. May use precious higher level feat to become expert(***) with deity favored weapon or specialized(**) with other weapon.
Druid - Can specialize (**) in non metal weapons (please no more druids with scimitars). Starts with four pips, gains one every 5th level. May use precious higher level feat to reach expertise(***) with non metal weapon.
Rogue and Bard - Can specialize (**) in thief weapons (no Greatswords, spears/halberds, warhammers and cutting consider scimitars and katanas). Starts with four pips, gains one every 4thlevel. May use precious higher level feat to achieve expertise(***) in thief weapons.
Warrior - Can become Expert (***) in all weapons. Starts with 5 pips, gains one every 3rd level. May use precious higher level feat to achieve mastery(****) in any weapon.
Trueclass single Fighter - Can become Master (****) with all weapons. Starts with 6 pips. gains one every 3rd level. May use precious higher level feat to achieve Grand mastery(*****) in any weapon.
Rogue and Bard - Can specialize (**) in thief weapons (no Greatswords, spears/halberds, warhammers and cutting consider scimitars and katanas). Starts with four pips, gains one every 4thlevel. May use precious higher level feat to achieve expertise(***) in thief weapons.
Ah, but I, um, wanted to use Tweaks Anthology's IWD-style proficiencies (with your component 124: WPO weapon styles on top) because I ... just like that the Tweaks version actually changes the proficiency of individual two-handed swords and bastard swords to "Greatswords". Because correct descriptions make me happy. Clearly we are in nit-picking obssessive territory here, there's no pleasing some people, etc., but the heart wants what the heart wants.
Ok, say I run your Component 121 FIRST (I always run your stuff last due to stern warnings in the README) and THEN run the IWD-style component from Tweaks.... that'd give me nearly everything I want, except now ninja-tos are large swords. I'll give it a try one of these days. Heh, I might try to change the Tweaks component afterwards to the first, limited Tweaks version and see what sticks and what does not. Fun times! Will report my findings.
Thanks for all your hard work and tireless replies.
I've installed the component which should allow fighter/clerics to use any weapon, but during level up I can only pick weapon proficiency points for the usual cleric weapons only. Also, while I can use weapons like long swords, others like halberds are unusable for my fighter/cleric.
Is this supposed to happen?
EDIT: I installed the 'Loosen Item Restrictions for Multi- and Dual-class Clerics/Druids' from Tweaks Anthology and it seems to have fixed it for now.
EDIT 2: And I've just realised I can't access the dual wielding profiency, as in I can't see it on the screen at all. Very odd.
Oooo, another idea: Also: I'm toying with the idea of *removing* weapon styles from normal proficiencies, and making them feats instead. And adding a min INT requirement (maybe 12 for proficiency, 15 for specialization). So styles become an advantage for intelligent, trained fighters, against simple weapon mastery learned by unintelligent brutes. the idea being, again, to make you consider putting points into INT instead of STR.
(In that case I would remove the INT-based crit bonuses, and instead make a crit bonus feat, which you could choose (if you want to) with your extra INT-based feats.)
When writing my post, I digged few pages back and was referring to this idea which I liked - not realizing it is from October and thus might actually be obsolete. Hence why less starting pips - if there are no styles to put pips into, you need less starting pips for the system to effectively stay the same.
Here's an idea that was suggested to me, which I like: in addition to eliminating the useless 4th "high mastery" pip, eliminate the 1st "proficiency" pip
Eliminating the first pip? Actually why not. Might not be easy to implement thought, especially when considering mod compatibility.
Problem is, in vanilla that 4th pip gets you nothing. Except a wasted pip that could have contributed to broader weapon mastery. My goals here are 1) make players generally able to effectively use more weapons, and 2) reduce complexity in the system.
As far as delaying grandmastery: that is actually possible now in the 2.0 engine. And implemented, to an extent: if an intelligent fighter has 2 pips at 1st level you would think they could reach 4 pips by 6th, right? Actually, profsmax.2da delays that 4th pip until 9th level.
Vanilla high mastery is indeed useless, but I had SoB overhaul in mind.
My problem is the general progression over the course of game. Current progression allows every "6th level shmuck who grew up in library" to be master swordsman. And at level 9, which even with SoB revised XP is easily achieved in Dragonspear, you become a grandmaster. Leaving you with no more proficiency advancement in the entirety of BG 2. The limits I would envision would be somewhere like level 7/8 for 3rd pip, 12/13 for 4th pip and level 16/17 for 5th pip.
My ideal of inteligent warrior is somebody who has wider choice of weapons and combat roles even at earlier levels. Then he would gradually get better with these choices over the course of saga. Currently every time we played multiplayer(using SoB, last session was IWD in summer) each warrior focused one weapon until he reached the cap, than put one more point in either Dual wield or Two handed style. Up to the point people were eagerly looking to getting new pips, after reaching the cap interest quickly diminished and it felt like "picking up the scraps". When we found a good weapon nobody focused on it got sold. Everyone was pissed off, but nobody actually wanted to spread their pips wider. Extra half attacks were simply that much appealing.
Bards should be versatile, but they're still not soldiers. I think they should get a combination of 'rogue weapons' and 'simple weapons.'
Soldier is not who can handle big weapon but rather who can use it effectively. I understand that clerics or druids have some restrictions due to their faith/oaths but there is no reason why bard cant pick up bastard sword or any other soldier weapon.
Also on fighter/mages if they can't cast with weapon in offhand because they need to use it to cast spells then would it be logically to use same logic to other classes? Is it possible to block all magic while u have something in your offhand (both weapon and shield)?
Also on fighter/mages if they can't cast with weapon in offhand because they need to use it to cast spells then would it be logically to use same logic to other classes? Is it possible to block all magic while u have something in your offhand (both weapon and shield)?
Unlike armor you can change your weapons in the middle of combat instantly and without restrictions. It would be maybe only slightly effective on shields as you would loose the ac bonus when unequipping to cast a spell.
In theory it makes sense to prevent fighter/mage from using shields, heavy weapons and dual-wield. But I imagine that people would not be exactly happy to play Blade who cannot dual-wield.
In theory it makes sense to prevent fighter/mage from using shields, heavy weapons and dual-wield. But I imagine that people would not be exactly happy to play Blade who cannot dual-wield.
I don't think that Blade is supposed to be dual wielder in a first place.
“Blades are master artisans with bladed weapons… [they] perform amazing displays of weapon skill and control as they flash various weapons all about their bodies with deadly precision…Blades also perform slow, elegant dances, involving incredibly precise movement and timing. These dances include thrusts, lunges, leaps, graceful arcs, etc. “Blades have a great reputation as the most deadly weapon masters in the land. This is generally far from the truth… Blades don’t understand offensive and defensive maneuvers, nor do they know the locations of vital body parts. Blades can be effective in many combat situations, however, as they use flash and flare to enhance their attacks.”
Again why fighter/mage can't dual wield and Blade (his lesser cousin) can? Why fighter/cleric can dual wield and cast spells?
The only available stats I know of are extraproficiency20 and Tracking... I already use extraproficiency20 for two different mods, I don't think it could be extended to support three different simultaneous effects...
Four mods could use the same first byte of the Extraproficiency20, provided the checks were done with SPLPROT and not Scripts(CheckStat/GT/LT). [spoiler]Mod1 sets EP20 +1. Checks bit1 true/false. SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 8"
param1 = 1, true
param1 = 0, false
Mod2 sets EP20 +2 per hand equipped. Checks bit 3 true/false. SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 8"
param1 = 4, both
param1 = 2, just one
SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 9"
param1 = 6, niether
Mod3 sets EP20 +8 per hand equipped. Checks bit 5 true/false. SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 8"
param1 = 16, both
param1 = 8, just one
SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 9"
param1 = 24, niether
Mod4 sets EP20 +32 per hand equipped. Checks bit 7 true/false. SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 8"
param1 = 64, both
param1 = 32, just one
SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 9"
param1 = 96, niether
[/spoiler] If you use "Increment" in all your EP20 proficiency effects, you can use an opcode 337, parameter1 = 134, parameter2 = 233, in the first level of CLAB's or on equip to reset this proficiency after dual-classing screws it up. Since the proficiency and modifier type(set/increment) are all a part of "Parameter2", opcode 337's parameter1 can be set to only remove the "Set" effects(which those from levelup/dual-classing always will be).
Comments
I'm going to try that, and I'm sure you're right and it will work, but I'm curious to ask one thing (for science): why would I need mod merge if it's the only mod I have installed? I'm interested in the technical side of that. Is Siege of dragonspear being considered a conflicting mod?
Regarding this: Why not remove speed weapons from equation? Much easier to balance few weapons around system instead of balancing whole system around them.
And I'm not talking about complete removal, just change. Changing from permanent effect to on-hit-chance should make balancing weapon styles easier.
There is also something strange going on with extra attacks. Plain Fighter with **** in Greatswords gains 4 attacks (17 lvl) while other fighters like Cavalier and Hexblade with *** gain only 2 attacks. It seems that Fighter gets extra 0.5 attack and other warriors loose 1 attack. Is it intended?Further investigation found that plain Fighter without equipped weapon have 2,5 attack. I assume this is it.It seems something to do with ToB, as soon as I transfer save from BG1 to ToB figter gets 1.5 additional base attack
Also Corsair's Swashbuckling grants additional 1 attack. Is it intended?
Here's a mod request for your consideration:
Subdivide Component 121(Weapon Proficiency Overhaul) into its constituent parts to allow players to pick and choose which ones to install. I love the Greatswords category, and the spear/halberd one will breathe new life into neglected proficiencies, and the club/mace makes perfect sense, and the singular Bows proficiency makes sense even if it perhaps hands a bit too much power to single-class thieves; but the other weapon proficiencies I'd like to leave in the vanilla version or use the Tweaks Anthology versions (the wakizashi/katana group and the short sword/ninja-to group) instead.
General feats are great idea, especially if they would benefit from high INT. If you do that, I would suggest to change bonus wizard spells from INT into feats. This would help to balance multiclasses - i.e. Fighter/Mage would have to actually make a meaningful choice between being better fighter or caster.
Proficiencies: I am all for going wide instead of dumping all stars into one category asap, but i would not cut out the 5th pip. I like progression trough the whole saga, so the later you reach proficiency cap the better. Grand mastery really sounds like something that should belong to HLAs instead what can random veteran mercenary reach on level 9.
Styles: Not being able to pick styles with pips sounds good (currently I basically auto pick 1-2 styles on level 1). However consider decreasing the number of starting pips - with collapsed weapon categories and no styles there will be much less meaningful choices to make. For example wizards can currently pick 4 out of 5 options on level 1, which feels weird.
Draft would look like this:
Cleric - Can specialize (**) with deity favored weapon, otherwise only proficient (*) with the rest. Starts with four pips, gains one every 5th level. May use precious higher level feat to become expert(***) with deity favored weapon or specialized(**) with other weapon.
Druid - Can specialize (**) in non metal weapons (please no more druids with scimitars). Starts with four pips, gains one every 5th level. May use precious higher level feat to reach expertise(***) with non metal weapon.
Rogue and Bard - Can specialize (**) in thief weapons (no Greatswords, spears/halberds, warhammers and cutting consider scimitars and katanas). Starts with four pips, gains one every 4thlevel. May use precious higher level feat to achieve expertise(***) in thief weapons.
Warrior - Can become Expert (***) in all weapons. Starts with 5 pips, gains one every 3rd level. May use precious higher level feat to achieve mastery(****) in any weapon.
Trueclass single Fighter - Can become Master (****) with all weapons. Starts with 6 pips. gains one every 3rd level. May use precious higher level feat to achieve Grand mastery(*****) in any weapon.
Ok, say I run your Component 121 FIRST (I always run your stuff last due to stern warnings in the README) and THEN run the IWD-style component from Tweaks.... that'd give me nearly everything I want, except now ninja-tos are large swords. I'll give it a try one of these days. Heh, I might try to change the Tweaks component afterwards to the first, limited Tweaks version and see what sticks and what does not. Fun times! Will report my findings.
Thanks for all your hard work and tireless replies.
Is this supposed to happen?
EDIT: I installed the 'Loosen Item Restrictions for Multi- and Dual-class Clerics/Druids' from Tweaks Anthology and it seems to have fixed it for now.
EDIT 2: And I've just realised I can't access the dual wielding profiency, as in I can't see it on the screen at all. Very odd.
My problem is the general progression over the course of game. Current progression allows every "6th level shmuck who grew up in library" to be master swordsman. And at level 9, which even with SoB revised XP is easily achieved in Dragonspear, you become a grandmaster. Leaving you with no more proficiency advancement in the entirety of BG 2. The limits I would envision would be somewhere like level 7/8 for 3rd pip, 12/13 for 4th pip and level 16/17 for 5th pip.
My ideal of inteligent warrior is somebody who has wider choice of weapons and combat roles even at earlier levels. Then he would gradually get better with these choices over the course of saga. Currently every time we played multiplayer(using SoB, last session was IWD in summer) each warrior focused one weapon until he reached the cap, than put one more point in either Dual wield or Two handed style. Up to the point people were eagerly looking to getting new pips, after reaching the cap interest quickly diminished and it felt like "picking up the scraps". When we found a good weapon nobody focused on it got sold. Everyone was pissed off, but nobody actually wanted to spread their pips wider. Extra half attacks were simply that much appealing.
Also on fighter/mages if they can't cast with weapon in offhand because they need to use it to cast spells then would it be logically to use same logic to other classes? Is it possible to block all magic while u have something in your offhand (both weapon and shield)?
In theory it makes sense to prevent fighter/mage from using shields, heavy weapons and dual-wield. But I imagine that people would not be exactly happy to play Blade who cannot dual-wield.
“Blades are master artisans with bladed weapons… [they] perform amazing displays of weapon skill and control as they flash various weapons all about their bodies with deadly precision…Blades also perform slow, elegant dances, involving incredibly precise movement and timing. These dances include thrusts, lunges, leaps, graceful arcs, etc.
“Blades have a great reputation as the most deadly weapon masters in the land. This is generally far from the truth… Blades don’t understand offensive and defensive maneuvers, nor do they know the locations of vital body parts. Blades can be effective in many combat situations, however, as they use flash and flare to enhance their attacks.”
Again why fighter/mage can't dual wield and Blade (his lesser cousin) can? Why fighter/cleric can dual wield and cast spells?
[spoiler]Mod1 sets EP20 +1. Checks bit1 true/false.
SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 8"
- param1 = 1, true
- param1 = 0, false
Mod2 sets EP20 +2 per hand equipped. Checks bit 3 true/false.SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 8"
- param1 = 4, both
- param1 = 2, just one
SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 9"- param1 = 6, niether
Mod3 sets EP20 +8 per hand equipped. Checks bit 5 true/false.SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 8"
- param1 = 16, both
- param1 = 8, just one
SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 9"- param1 = 24, niether
Mod4 sets EP20 +32 per hand equipped. Checks bit 7 true/false.SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 8"
- param1 = 64, both
- param1 = 32, just one
SPLPROT: "# 134 -1 9"- param1 = 96, niether
[/spoiler]If you use "Increment" in all your EP20 proficiency effects, you can use an opcode 337, parameter1 = 134, parameter2 = 233, in the first level of CLAB's or on equip to reset this proficiency after dual-classing screws it up.
Since the proficiency and modifier type(set/increment) are all a part of "Parameter2", opcode 337's parameter1 can be set to only remove the "Set" effects(which those from levelup/dual-classing always will be).