Honestly, with the shield bashing, I've not noticed it having *any* real effect in combat, though that could be as much a lack of me paying attention as anything else.
I think one of the issues with Two Weapon Style is that nobody actually uses a longsword in the main hand, and a short sword or dagger in the other, because it's too mechanically advantageous to simply use two longswords, two bastard swords, or scimitars, which you can just pick one of, and get all your specialization/mastery bonuses with to boot. The other issue is most of the smaller weapons don't do as much damage, or have the kind of equipped abilities that the larger weapons do.
I'm not certain if it's possible to restrict what sorts of weapons can be used in offhand, but that might be worth a try.
Two handed weapons are either meh, or godly, with almost nothing in between, which *is* an issue and a large one.
Shields are also meh, with the exception of the Shield of Harmony, and the Shield of Balduran, if you're fighting beholders. Even so, I normally don't have them actually equipped, unless those specific enchantments are required.
@ObsidianShade try Item revisions, especially the improved shields component. But yeh shields should still use a buff, dexterous warrior with good armor and magical shield should be able to deflect attacks from Battle horrors.
From my observation the shield bash is basically knocking attackers back. I don't know how it is coded, but this might result them occasionally loosing an attack. I am not sure about it working when the enemy hit you - it makes no sense to bash 5 xvarts per round. Rather I would like to see something like pseudo extra attack, that would interrupt attacked target (possibly disrupting casting trough protections) and force enemy to save or get stunned for a round.
Perhaps more emphasis should be put on light/heavy weapons when dual-wielding. Dual-wielding Bastard swords, katana's or warhammers is not really humanly possible and it would take real master swordsman to effectively wield two scimitars or longswords.
But two short swords on the other hand should be doable right from the candle-keep.
There seems to be minor problem with YARAS. Some armors are not named properly, for example this is clearly Studded leather+2, yet it is titled as ordinary one, which can result into dazzling situations such as me wondering for 15 minutes why i cannot "identify" it.
You are right, i made errors during installation. In my previous installations i was preferring IR components over SoB components, which now has changed. I am trying to keep as much components from IR as possible to combine goodies from IR (shields and longer reach on spears is must ) with SoB which i believe should be possible without errors. I will cut thieving skills and armored casting from IR in my next install.
The issue i was referring to however is that enchanted items lack the "+1" part. I.e. both Ring of protection +1 and Ring of protection +2 are both labeled just "Ring of protection" and i cannot see a mod conflict here. This wasn't happening before i started using YARAS, Aestethic and Enhancement tweaks and Functional weapon tweaks.
@subtledoctor : Dual wielding two one handed swords is actually rather easy--I've done it myself in sparring many times, the issue being that in reality, it doesn't work the way it does in D&D; instead, you're mainly using that second weapon to parry, and *if* your opponent happens to give you an opening, you might take it with the second weapon. Mostly, it forces your opponent to be more wary, since attacks can come from more angles, though compared to using a shield, it's not that terribly useful, as even though you're carrying two weapons, you're really only able to attack with one at a time. I found it mainly useful in a context where your opponent is only armed with a single weapon, and no buckler or shield. Unfortunately, the rules set and game engine won't model this well.
I did have an idea about shields, though again, I don't know if the game engine will model it. Is it possible to have shields grant a % that the enemy will simply miss the target completely? For example a small shield might grant a base 20% chance that the opponent is never able to land the blow to begin with, and the game checks this before making the actual attack roll. Shields in D&D are far less effective than in real life--your basic shield offers a +1 to AC, which translates to about a 5% difference, when the reality is getting around one in real combat, carried by someone that knows how to use one is no easy undertaking, which is why I think the above models them far better.
Regards shields, I would argue that anyone who has the option of carrying one, *is* trained in how to use it already. Even Lv1 fighters, rangers, paladins, and clerics et al, aren't some yokel peasant picking up the thing up for the first time in their lives, rather characters who would have spent their youths learning basic combat tactics, including how to properly wield one, and even if they specialized in another style, or say two handed weapon, would still be able if the circumstance demanded, pick up a shield and use it to its *full* potential.
A character who is specialized in shields, in contrast, knows how to use them to their *maximum* potential.
Well, here's an idea. Why stop at two dots? Why not take shield specialization out to five dots, granting a corresponding boost to AC the way that other types of mastery do with weapons?
Well, I guess the only real solution is to just buff what the dots offer some. The shield bash is distinctly underwhelming, while the other bonuses are useful at low level, but just get lost as the character advances. Granted, I've never actually played with a dedicated shield fighter, mainly leaving shields for my clerics.
@Arizael My broad point is, I can't really debug your issue if there are mod conflicts like that. I looked over the YARAS code and there is nothing that overwrites the identified armor description, so I have to assume it is some weird effect of combining the two incompatible mods. At least, I have to assume that until someone experiences this problem without the mod conflict.
Fair point As an aside, one of my current frustrations is that IR doesn't let you install the Revised Shields unless you install the Revised Armors... I want to use IR Revised Shields with YARAS (and it sounds like you do too) but right now it's not possible. I've asked about the dependency on the IR forums but have not yet gotten a response.
Are you sure? Because I would certainly like to do that and in fact i did. Just double-checked my Weidu log and setup-item_rev.debug and i did not install Revised Armors and i do in fact have Revised shields.
Well, I guess the only real solution is to just buff what the dots offer some. The shield bash is distinctly underwhelming, while the other bonuses are useful at low level, but just get lost as the character advances. Granted, I've never actually played with a dedicated shield fighter, mainly leaving shields for my clerics.
Shields were always underwhelming in BG. They were only useful in early BG1 againts missiles or for cheese equip effects (shield of balduran and beholder rays). Putting pips there was regarded completely useless. Revised shields remedies the situation, but it does not seem to be enough. I am currently testing simply rewarding 2 pips in shield fighting with bonus 4 to ac and it seems to be fine.
The shield bash should IMO not really work like Fire shield, it does not make much sense. It should be a pseudo extra attack, that will shortly but strongly debuff the enemy (interrupt spell casting, penalty to ac, loosing APR etc.).
I looked at the weidu.log you posted above and there is casting in armor, thieving in armor, and revised shields. In my recent install I could not install revised shields without installing the armor stuff. (Though, maybe I'm misunderstanding how it works - I'd love to be wrong.)
Installed clean BG1:EE. Item revisions base component and Revised shields component nothing else.
// Log of Currently Installed WeiDU Mods // The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod // ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // [Subcomponent Name -> ] Component Name [ : Version] ~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #0 // Item Revisions by Demivrgvs: V4 Beta 8 ~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #10 // Revised Shield Bonuses: V4 Beta 8
Went to Winthrop and armors are completely vanilla, shields revised as expected, so there should be no problem fitting YARAS here.
I'm thinking about maybe reversing the vanilla bonuses - give shields extra AC bonus vs. melee, and little or none against ranged attacks (because how do you use a shield against a projectile striking from 30 yards away and maybe not even in your field of vision? But, balancing is tough. +4 AC, obstainsble at level 1, is kind of crazy. If you can't be hit what's the point of playing? Might as well add an Absolute Immunity equipping effect, or play in story mode.
Did not know you can specialize in Shield fighting at level 1. I think it would be better if you could not put pips into any style at level 1 at all. Anyway AC is not really overpowered. First every enemy always has at least 5% chance to hit you and they will do so as they generally outnumber you. Than even in BG1 there are really strong enemies that will hit even high AC characters (battle horrors) and as the saga continues you will see more and more such enemies. Finally the most dangerous attacks like spells ignore AC all together.
I am playing hardcore (Imoen and Charname must not die), SCS, random items, with your xp system (No murder XP is great idea btw) and the furthest i got so far was Cult Assasins in Ulgoth's beard. Even sturdy shield focused characters like Yeslick or Kagain burn trough potions pretty fast and dying to untimely crits definitely happens. My shield focusing high dex cavalier Charname with AC like -10 before buffs got literally obliterated by Avarice.
And remember that it would compound with the existing AC bonus from shields, which are negligible at first but get crazy later. It would mean a 10-point swing for picking up a shield. Honestly, that's just kind of silly.
Only with Item revision shields and these still carry penalty to thac0. My paladin had impressive AC, but was 4 thac0 behind Minsc and did way less dmg. 10 point swing in AC with impressive shields later in BG 2 like Shield of the Order might seem strong - But it has to compete with things like Carsomyr, Staff of the Ram, offhanding weapons like Belm, Corm Fayer or Defender of East Haven - these things are much more broken than large chunk of AC.
Thinking out loud... maybe split the baby a bit. maybe make all shields more effective (base 2-point AC bonus, plus enchantment) but make the bonus only apply against melee attacks if you aren't trained in using shields. And then have the fighting style give an AC bonus vs. ranged attacks. So if you are specialized with shields you get the full benefit.
A side effect of this would be, whereas right now AC is capped at -20, with this system shields would be capable of pushing your AC past the cap.
Like you said deflecting projectile coming from 30 yards makes no sense. Shield still offered good protection against skirmishers, but that's because they made it harder for the skirmisher to land a hit. The shield bearer simply covered behind the shield and hoped for the best. The smaller the shield the less cover and deflecting arrows with buckler or god forbid sword is pure luck.
Martial expertise with shield would play much more role in melee. Sadly this currently is not happening - level 1 warrior with the same equipment will have the same AC as at level 10.
I mean, let's not forget what we're talking about here. Conversations about this stuff used to be very short: "Hey do you think we could changes weapon styles so tha--" "No. Hard-coded."
That's still true. These things are horribly hard-coded and there is no way to create equipping effects that check you proficiency, without hacks and workarounds that severely limit what you can do.
A pseudo-Fireshield is interesting in that: it is doable; it is an effect normally impossible for characters who carry shields; it makes enough basic sense that it doesn't offend my suspension of disbelief (I fondly recall playing Oblivion where a high Block skill causes enemies to reel back a bit when they strike you); and it is doable.
I really thought it had been switched from Wing Buffet to Stun, though. There might have been a regression somewhere.
The problem is, that you can in theory perform 6 shield bashes per round if you are surrounded by say Xvarts. But you cannot shield bash casting mage. Maybe conditioned on hit effect, that can happen once per round?
If it cannot be done, that it cannot be done. But i have faith in your modding skills, you ve already done things i deemed not possible
The intelligence bonus to spells is not working for my Fighter/Mage PC, should it? I had Blood and Tome's stuff installed and I figured that might interfere, but I uninstalled it and still nothing.
Then I reinstalled Tome and Blood's attribute stuff, it only worked if I consoled in a Manual of Intelligence and used it.
On a side note, damaging shield bearing characters now seems to spam "One of the spells have failed", which can be pretty misleading when it involves casting cleric. I suspect shield bash is the culprit.
Icharyd, thrice he be damned, is still boasting 90 Magic Resistance despite having Magic resistance overhaul installed. I suspect Stratagems is the culprit as it probably overrides the value due to later installment. Any idea what would happen if I installed the component after SCS?
Magic Resistance ... Any idea what would happen if I installed the component after SCS?
I would work just fine - exactly as you desire, in fact.
Note to everyone: attempting to reinstall previous component will cause Weidu to reinstall all following components. Which in case of SCS will probably take more than hour. Plus no idea what it will do with Item Randomiser and my saves. Well I should have go to sleep anyway
Comments
I think one of the issues with Two Weapon Style is that nobody actually uses a longsword in the main hand, and a short sword or dagger in the other, because it's too mechanically advantageous to simply use two longswords, two bastard swords, or scimitars, which you can just pick one of, and get all your specialization/mastery bonuses with to boot. The other issue is most of the smaller weapons don't do as much damage, or have the kind of equipped abilities that the larger weapons do.
I'm not certain if it's possible to restrict what sorts of weapons can be used in offhand, but that might be worth a try.
Two handed weapons are either meh, or godly, with almost nothing in between, which *is* an issue and a large one.
From my observation the shield bash is basically knocking attackers back. I don't know how it is coded, but this might result them occasionally loosing an attack. I am not sure about it working when the enemy hit you - it makes no sense to bash 5 xvarts per round. Rather I would like to see something like pseudo extra attack, that would interrupt attacked target (possibly disrupting casting trough protections) and force enemy to save or get stunned for a round.
Perhaps more emphasis should be put on light/heavy weapons when dual-wielding. Dual-wielding Bastard swords, katana's or warhammers is not really humanly possible and it would take real master swordsman to effectively wield two scimitars or longswords.
But two short swords on the other hand should be doable right from the candle-keep.
The issue i was referring to however is that enchanted items lack the "+1" part. I.e. both Ring of protection +1 and Ring of protection +2 are both labeled just "Ring of protection" and i cannot see a mod conflict here. This wasn't happening before i started using YARAS, Aestethic and Enhancement tweaks and Functional weapon tweaks.
I did have an idea about shields, though again, I don't know if the game engine will model it. Is it possible to have shields grant a % that the enemy will simply miss the target completely? For example a small shield might grant a base 20% chance that the opponent is never able to land the blow to begin with, and the game checks this before making the actual attack roll. Shields in D&D are far less effective than in real life--your basic shield offers a +1 to AC, which translates to about a 5% difference, when the reality is getting around one in real combat, carried by someone that knows how to use one is no easy undertaking, which is why I think the above models them far better.
A character who is specialized in shields, in contrast, knows how to use them to their *maximum* potential.
The shield bash should IMO not really work like Fire shield, it does not make much sense. It should be a pseudo extra attack, that will shortly but strongly debuff the enemy (interrupt spell casting, penalty to ac, loosing APR etc.).
// The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod
// ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // [Subcomponent Name -> ] Component Name [ : Version]
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #0 // Item Revisions by Demivrgvs: V4 Beta 8
~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #10 // Revised Shield Bonuses: V4 Beta 8
I am playing hardcore (Imoen and Charname must not die), SCS, random items, with your xp system (No murder XP is great idea btw) and the furthest i got so far was Cult Assasins in Ulgoth's beard. Even sturdy shield focused characters like Yeslick or Kagain burn trough potions pretty fast and dying to untimely crits definitely happens. My shield focusing high dex cavalier Charname with AC like -10 before buffs got literally obliterated by Avarice. Only with Item revision shields and these still carry penalty to thac0. My paladin had impressive AC, but was 4 thac0 behind Minsc and did way less dmg. 10 point swing in AC with impressive shields later in BG 2 like Shield of the Order might seem strong - But it has to compete with things like Carsomyr, Staff of the Ram, offhanding weapons like Belm, Corm Fayer or Defender of East Haven - these things are much more broken than large chunk of AC. Like you said deflecting projectile coming from 30 yards makes no sense. Shield still offered good protection against skirmishers, but that's because they made it harder for the skirmisher to land a hit. The shield bearer simply covered behind the shield and hoped for the best. The smaller the shield the less cover and deflecting arrows with buckler or god forbid sword is pure luck.
Martial expertise with shield would play much more role in melee. Sadly this currently is not happening - level 1 warrior with the same equipment will have the same AC as at level 10. The problem is, that you can in theory perform 6 shield bashes per round if you are surrounded by say Xvarts. But you cannot shield bash casting mage. Maybe conditioned on hit effect, that can happen once per round?
If it cannot be done, that it cannot be done. But i have faith in your modding skills, you ve already done things i deemed not possible
Then I reinstalled Tome and Blood's attribute stuff, it only worked if I consoled in a Manual of Intelligence and used it.