I didn't consider dual-classing. But it should be okay - the 1st pip from the 1st mod would be suppressed (which is okay, it's a class-specific ability) but restored later, right? And the 2nd mod applies whenever equipping a weapon, so it should work regardless.
As far as using a 3rd, 4th, etc. mod with this stat: I think someone in another mod found that the game doesn't let you have more than 7 pips in a proficiency. So two might be the max.
The problem with dual-classing, is it will include any currently equipped proficiency effects when it creates the permanent base for the original class.
The proficiency "system" will only accept values up to 7 for active & original class, but its a stat like any other, and SPLPROT and CheckStat can detect it just fine. It's just a shame there is no bit-wise CheckStat trigger.
Basically just because F/Ms are ridiculously overpowered, and Blades are useless dorky bards... that's basically the only reason.
F/M strength is not in ability to dual wield (dual wield is fine as long as you remove speed weapons). All mages multi/dual classes are strong because how broken is mage at high level .
IMHO multiclass fighter can't get grandmastery it would be logical that multiclass mage, cleric and druid should not be a be to learn top levels of spells. They already have advantage of having more choice.
After reading some parts from Complete Warrior Handbook I've brainstormed this:
1) Group up all weapons in groups: a)Big swords - long swords and scimitars; b)Greatswords -Greatswords and bastard swords; c)Blundering - mace, hammer and club; d)Morningstars - flail and morningstar; e)Hurl weapons- dagger, axe; f)Thrown weapons -darts, sling; g)Small blades - dagger and short swords; h)Exotic weapons - katana, ninjato, waki;
2) Everyone starts by default with proficiency in weapon they can use;
3)Non warrior classes and multiclasses get nothing more;
4)Warrior multiclasses can get focus on weapon groups (+ 1 dmg +1 hit) every 3 level starting at 3th.
5)Warriors other then fighters and fighter kits can get focus at weapon group. After focusing on weapon group they can get single focus on weapon from that group ( +2 dmg +3 hit +3/2) or focus on another group.
6)Fighter can get focus at as much weapons as hi want as long as it is in group he is focused in.
7)Fighter can get Mastery with weapon hi got weapon focus. It gives him something like +3 dmg +3 hit;
8)Fighter can get Grandmastery ( +5 hit +5 dmg +1) with weapon hi got Mastery. Only single Grandmastery allowed and while fighter have Grandmastery hi will not get any other proficiency. Fighter will have to abandon Grandmastery if hi want to choose another weapon to focus on. So fighter will have choice: Grandmastery on single weapon but no more progress or mastery in as much weapons as hi want.
9)Dual from fighter will loose Grandmastery and focus and will get only focus on group fighter was focused.
10) So fighter will be able to focus on group at 3th level, focus on weapon at 6th, Mastery at 9th, Grandmastery at 12th.
11) All can be done though dialog and fighters should be able to abandon Grandmastery at every time hi would normally get proficiency.
12) Single and Multiclass warrior still will get additional 3/2 at 7th and 13th level.
14) Since Carsomyr and Purifier are sort of paladin relics I'd say any paladin should be able to wield them as they are focused on that weapon.
I wanted to install the revised weapon damage component, but the slings not getting a strength bonus killed that for me, as it would mess with my clerics too much, since all of those eventually get exceptional strength through items. I can't even see from a realistic standpoint why they wouldn't, either, given the many ancient accounts of their effectiveness.
I looked at the revised stats component, but couldn't figure out exactly how it worked, so was hesitant about installing it. It looked like you got some bonuses earlier, but with a lower max cap? I think for DEX, for example, it alternated AC and missile adjustment values, at different scores.
As far as the sling damage goes, Vegetius claims that sling bullets were, in fact, more damaging to soldiers in armor than arrows, and accounts of Spanish Conquistadors would tend to back this up. The issue to me isn't if the sling is doing more damage than the arrow or bolt, but would realistically, a high strength bonus be applied to such a weapon, given its mode of use and propulsion? In the case of lightweight throwing daggers and darts, I'd say, no they shouldn't--these weapons don't have the mass to properly take advantage of such strengths. Looking at the lead sling bullet, and how it is used, it only seems too logical that it would gain such an advantage, though I do agree with changing it to crushing damage.
(I honestly never understood why so many things were lumped under "Missile Damage." Slings and hammers crush, arrows, daggers and bolts pierce, and axes slash, unless it was strictly so that spells could figure out whether they would block it or not.)
Well, if say Protection from Normal Missiles functions simply by blocking all missile damage, then things could get wonky changing it, though the process might be more complex than that.
For me, it's mages with crossbows, and clerics with slings, though my main mage is habitually Imoen (BG EE and 2) or Nalia (BG 2) both of whom can use shortbows.
As a sidenote, in my days of DMing 3.0/3.5, I actually got rid of the Paladin, and combined it with the Cleric, giving Clerics a free martial weapon proficiency, and some Paladin abilities not already covered by their spells, such as Divine Grace and Divine Health. I also changed their spellcasting to run off of Charisma, not Wisdom, treating their spells more like prayers, with the idea that the deity would be more likely to respond to the invocations of a more charismatic cleric. I also separated divine spellcasters into Clerics and Priests, with the Clerics being the militant arm of the faith, and priests being the administrative arm. They functioned like divine sorcerers, with less in the way of weapons and armor training, and less spell selection, but more spells per day, which made sense given their main duties of tending to the daily needs of the faithful. It also meant that in the standard small town or village, you'd seldom have an actual Cleric in attendance. While it was mostly an NPC class, they did get enough perks to make them playable as PCs if someone wanted to, getting some of the monk abilities as they leveled up, things like the various immunities and buffs such as Diamond Body, and eventually Timeless body. At 20th level, they became an Outsider, and gained additional abilities along with it depending on the deity.
I'll look forward to trying that out, especially since I haven't done a cleric playthough yet. I began playing AD&D First Edition, when the Paladin was more of a knight-errant, but by 3.0/3.5 they were more the church militant, a role that had been the cleric's in earlier editions, so those changes were mainly intended to bring the Cleric back to its roots. In actual gameplay, it was a very powerful class if done right, largely due to everything being CHA based, especially as while it lost the Laying on of Hands ability of the Paladin, it kept the Smite. Later on, I also added some Pathfinder stuff, mainly replacing Turn Undead, but that was pretty much at the end of my GMing career, alas.
I'll always have a place in my heart for D&D, but the more I've learned about how real combat works, the more convinced I am that D&D doesn't model it very well. I haven't had a deep look at 5th ed, but it seems to be a rehash of previous editions, using the same flawed basic model.
Problems to me started occurring when the idea that you could buy magic items started getting spread about, and 3.0/3.5 was terrible about balancing AC vs Attack Bonus. I recall it getting bad enough at higher levels that fighters were just wearing mithril shirts with Heavy Fortification enchantments slapped on, because armor did so little to actually protect you after a certain point.
I developed a fix for this that proved to be less than popular with some groups, namely taking (a small) page from 4th edition, (which I otherwise despised) and making all classes have an attack bonus equal to half their level, and also getting a defense bonus equivalent to the same. It did actually work, but I was adamant about controlling party magic, drastically limiting what items could be bought. (mostly consumables--items could, of course be commissioned, but when the characters found out exactly what *that* involved, typically quests to get a laundry list of components, it wasn't a popular choice compared to relying on my (eventual) generosity.
I have to say, as for RPG combat, I liked New World of Darkness much better. You had around 7-11 health levels, and armor absorbed some damage, and converted the rest to nonlethal, unless the attack clearly overmatched it. (like shooting 7.62x51 NATO at a guy wearing a soft kevlar vest) I recall one group who had guys decked out in black full plate with Kevlar gambesons underneath. (the armor values didn't stack, but let them use the best value for ballistic vs melee attack) I always hated how high level D&D characters had enough HP to essentially make them Wile E. Coyote.
Speaking about armors - have you ever considered doing something about armor class at higher levels? It feels kind of wrong when everybody hits everything and shields become useless (and I am afraid that shield bash won't help remedy that).
The only thing I can think of would be to do what I did in my tabletop games and assign every creature and character a defense bonus based on level, though that could get out of hand quickly, as my Swashbuckler still doesn't get hit most of the time. (Of course, she has UAI, so can wear all the good AC items, even when meant for another class)
On another note, I did give SoD's altered stats a try, but it amounted to a big nerf of the character, while buffing all sorts of enemies--not the effect I was going for. Warriors got absolutely nothing for exceptional strength, and I think even a 19 was worth a measly +2/+3, which made it nothing special at all. Suffice to say, after 3 levels of trying to make it work, that component, along with the revised weapon proficiency component, (which also amounted to a big nerf) got uninstalled, making me have to go into EEK to fix everything back.
The *Only* build I might suggest the above for would be a two handed warrior, with the revised fighting style component installed, and an 18 INT, presuming the enhanced crit chances stack. I will say that the revised fighting styles is probably the gem of this entire mod.
Honestly, I'd love a version of this with just the INT and CHA changes that leaves STR and DEX alone, as it could make for a nice change of pace with Paladins and Swashbucklers. (Who I tend to give high CHA)
One functional change I might suggest for the condensed weapons categories is, if you want to be accurate, Morningstars should go under Mace/Club, as besides having spikes, they have little in common with flails.
I presumed that enemies with lower ability scores were also able to take advantage of the stat bonuses offered by the mod. I know I was getting torn to pieces and having a much harder time hitting guys that before I simply cut through without thinking too much about, even with the previous mods installed, so the only major changes since then was SoD.
The ability score nerf, meaning I was doing somewhat less damage, combined with the modified proficiencies, which meant I was also doing less damage, having no specialization at all until third level, meant I was really not faring well in the early part of the game. My Dex was also slightly lower, though probably not enough to matter.
With the intelligence bonus to crits, I was wondering if it stacked with the two handed style bonus to crits, which would make it very useful for that build.
I only have a partial install of the mod, as I did not see any value at all to certain components, like the armor component, which did some messing around with AC values adding DR. Usually with my main characters, I try to go for an "AC Lord" build, which means keeping DEX as high as I can while wearing the best armor items I can find. In BG EE, this, unlike BG II, or ToB, is viable. (Technically, you can manage it with a Swashbucker, at least to a certain point) At any rate, I didn't want to go modding the .ini because it felt too much like cheating, making it a matter of accepting it or not.
I'm suspicious of DR because playing in Normal mode gives you something like 20% effective DR, however, I use Core Rules setting, though I honestly don't notice a vast difference in overall gameplay. (I die about as often in both modes)
I'm not sure if their stats are the result of a mod or what, but the pair of that practically wiped the floor with my party 5 times in a row were Alexander and Delgod, Sendai's henchmen. Normally, they're a pushover, even for low level characters, but on this occasion they utterly destroyed me before I closed with Sendai herself. I was playing a 2nd level Dwarven Defender with max HP and good AC, with two paladins, a cleric, a cleric-thief, and a lv 1 Mage.
Both the pair are 81 point characters with
STR: 17 DEX: 16 CON:14 INT: 10 WIS: 11 CHA:13
I didn't have a mage in the party, but Command proved practically useless probably because they were 6th level, and entitled to saves, which they always made.
I'm not sure if their stats are the result of a mod or what, but the pair of that practically wiped the floor with my party 5 times in a row were Alexander and Delgod, Sendai's henchmen. Normally, they're a pushover, even for low level characters, but on this occasion they utterly destroyed me before I closed with Sendai herself. I was playing a 2nd level Dwarven Defender with max HP and good AC, with two paladins, a cleric, a cleric-thief, and a lv 1 Mage.
Both the pair are 81 point characters with
STR: 17 DEX: 16 CON:14 INT: 10 WIS: 11 CHA:13
I didn't have a mage in the party, but Command proved practically useless probably because they were 6th level, and entitled to saves, which they always made.
I had no mage either. Send in thief to backstab one and tank should charge another, kite Sendai. Or do you expect tank n spank?
I'd like to ask a few questions about component 200: Stat Bonus Overhaul.
1) Does Component 200 combine with Tome and Blood's component that grants extra spells and effective casting levels to mages and sorcerers with high Intelligence and Charisma? Looking at the descriptions of the two components, I fear one overwrites the other, and I like both.
2) With component 200, is there a cap to the Intelligence-based increased critical-hit chance, or will it stack with other skills and weapons? Say, for the sake of argument, an 18 Intelligence warrior (+15%) with two pips in two-hand style (+10%) and the Sword of Ruin from the initial dungeon in SoD (+5%) - does he REALLY have a 30% chance of a critical hit - a crit on a roll of 14 or above??
4) On crits: the revised stats imposes a minimum 14 INT to have the normal 5% crit chance... but at 16 and 18 INT you double and triple that chance. And you can increase it even higher with fighting styles. If you use INT as a dump stat yes this will be a slight (-5%) nerf, but the point is to enable different kinds of builds. You can drop STR and boost your INT, and design a crit-focused build. That kind of decision is not possible in vanilla.
Ok, say I run your Component 121 FIRST (I always run your stuff last due to stern warnings in the README) and THEN run the IWD-style component from Tweaks.... that'd give me nearly everything I want, except now ninja-tos are large swords. I'll give it a try one of these days. Heh, I might try to change the Tweaks component afterwards to the first, limited Tweaks version and see what sticks and what does not. Fun times! Will report my findings.
So, installing the Scales of Balance Component 121 first and then installing Tweaks Anthology weapon proficiency system component, subcomponent 4 (IWD-style weapon proficiencies, with weapon styles) gave me most of what I wanted, with a few quirks:
The (Tweaks) Dagger/darts and (SoB) Missile weapons (darts/slings) categories overlap, and both appear to work, but neither makes much sense to me thematically, although mechanically - combining weak categories - I see the point.
I wish I could further combine the proficiencies and mods and have daggers, short swords, ninja-tos (which are Large in the Tweaks component) combined in a Small Blades proficiency.
There is also some inconsistency with YARAS in EET, a lot of BG1 items (Plait Mail, Ankheg, Magma Bulwark, and other heavy armor ) don't get full changes.
Question - why is the F/M restricted from Two handed fighting style? I am having on mind one of the most natural weapon for F/M or any Mage multiclass - the Quarterstaff. If the concern is to prevent nonsense such casting while swinging with halberd, wouldn't it be better to restrict spears/halberds and greatswords ?
Actually, restricing twohanded weapons for purpose of "casting" is silly. You can easily hold such a weapon with one hand while casting. I can see the point for Shield & Sword & Dualwielding, though. (And even then, I say look at Gandalf. He dualwielded a sword AND a quarterstaff. )
Comments
The proficiency "system" will only accept values up to 7 for active & original class, but its a stat like any other, and SPLPROT and CheckStat can detect it just fine. It's just a shame there is no bit-wise CheckStat trigger.
IMHO multiclass fighter can't get grandmastery it would be logical that multiclass mage, cleric and druid should not be a be to learn top levels of spells. They already have advantage of having more choice.
a)Big swords - long swords and scimitars;
b)Greatswords -Greatswords and bastard swords;
c)Blundering - mace, hammer and club;
d)Morningstars - flail and morningstar;
e)Hurl weapons- dagger, axe;
f)Thrown weapons -darts, sling;
g)Small blades - dagger and short swords;
h)Exotic weapons - katana, ninjato, waki;
2) Everyone starts by default with proficiency in weapon they can use;
3)Non warrior classes and multiclasses get nothing more;
4)Warrior multiclasses can get focus on weapon groups (+ 1 dmg +1 hit) every 3 level starting at 3th.
5)Warriors other then fighters and fighter kits can get focus at weapon group. After focusing on weapon group they can get single focus on weapon from that group ( +2 dmg +3 hit +3/2) or focus on another group.
6)Fighter can get focus at as much weapons as hi want as long as it is in group he is focused in.
7)Fighter can get Mastery with weapon hi got weapon focus. It gives him something like +3 dmg +3 hit;
8)Fighter can get Grandmastery ( +5 hit +5 dmg +1) with weapon hi got Mastery. Only single Grandmastery allowed and while fighter have Grandmastery hi will not get any other proficiency. Fighter will have to abandon Grandmastery if hi want to choose another weapon to focus on. So fighter will have choice: Grandmastery on single weapon but no more progress or mastery in as much weapons as hi want.
9)Dual from fighter will loose Grandmastery and focus and will get only focus on group fighter was focused.
10) So fighter will be able to focus on group at 3th level, focus on weapon at 6th, Mastery at 9th, Grandmastery at 12th.
11) All can be done though dialog and fighters should be able to abandon Grandmastery at every time hi would normally get proficiency.
12) Single and Multiclass warrior still will get additional 3/2 at 7th and 13th level.
14) Since Carsomyr and Purifier are sort of paladin relics I'd say any paladin should be able to wield them as they are focused on that weapon.
P.S sorry for my terrible English
As far as the sling damage goes, Vegetius claims that sling bullets were, in fact, more damaging to soldiers in armor than arrows, and accounts of Spanish Conquistadors would tend to back this up. The issue to me isn't if the sling is doing more damage than the arrow or bolt, but would realistically, a high strength bonus be applied to such a weapon, given its mode of use and propulsion? In the case of lightweight throwing daggers and darts, I'd say, no they shouldn't--these weapons don't have the mass to properly take advantage of such strengths. Looking at the lead sling bullet, and how it is used, it only seems too logical that it would gain such an advantage, though I do agree with changing it to crushing damage.
(I honestly never understood why so many things were lumped under "Missile Damage." Slings and hammers crush, arrows, daggers and bolts pierce, and axes slash, unless it was strictly so that spells could figure out whether they would block it or not.)
For me, it's mages with crossbows, and clerics with slings, though my main mage is habitually Imoen (BG EE and 2) or Nalia (BG 2) both of whom can use shortbows.
As a sidenote, in my days of DMing 3.0/3.5, I actually got rid of the Paladin, and combined it with the Cleric, giving Clerics a free martial weapon proficiency, and some Paladin abilities not already covered by their spells, such as Divine Grace and Divine Health. I also changed their spellcasting to run off of Charisma, not Wisdom, treating their spells more like prayers, with the idea that the deity would be more likely to respond to the invocations of a more charismatic cleric. I also separated divine spellcasters into Clerics and Priests, with the Clerics being the militant arm of the faith, and priests being the administrative arm. They functioned like divine sorcerers, with less in the way of weapons and armor training, and less spell selection, but more spells per day, which made sense given their main duties of tending to the daily needs of the faithful. It also meant that in the standard small town or village, you'd seldom have an actual Cleric in attendance. While it was mostly an NPC class, they did get enough perks to make them playable as PCs if someone wanted to, getting some of the monk abilities as they leveled up, things like the various immunities and buffs such as Diamond Body, and eventually Timeless body. At 20th level, they became an Outsider, and gained additional abilities along with it depending on the deity.
I'll always have a place in my heart for D&D, but the more I've learned about how real combat works, the more convinced I am that D&D doesn't model it very well. I haven't had a deep look at 5th ed, but it seems to be a rehash of previous editions, using the same flawed basic model.
Problems to me started occurring when the idea that you could buy magic items started getting spread about, and 3.0/3.5 was terrible about balancing AC vs Attack Bonus. I recall it getting bad enough at higher levels that fighters were just wearing mithril shirts with Heavy Fortification enchantments slapped on, because armor did so little to actually protect you after a certain point.
I developed a fix for this that proved to be less than popular with some groups, namely taking (a small) page from 4th edition, (which I otherwise despised) and making all classes have an attack bonus equal to half their level, and also getting a defense bonus equivalent to the same. It did actually work, but I was adamant about controlling party magic, drastically limiting what items could be bought. (mostly consumables--items could, of course be commissioned, but when the characters found out exactly what *that* involved, typically quests to get a laundry list of components, it wasn't a popular choice compared to relying on my (eventual) generosity.
I have to say, as for RPG combat, I liked New World of Darkness much better. You had around 7-11 health levels, and armor absorbed some damage, and converted the rest to nonlethal, unless the attack clearly overmatched it. (like shooting 7.62x51 NATO at a guy wearing a soft kevlar vest) I recall one group who had guys decked out in black full plate with Kevlar gambesons underneath. (the armor values didn't stack, but let them use the best value for ballistic vs melee attack) I always hated how high level D&D characters had enough HP to essentially make them Wile E. Coyote.
.
The *Only* build I might suggest the above for would be a two handed warrior, with the revised fighting style component installed, and an 18 INT, presuming the enhanced crit chances stack. I will say that the revised fighting styles is probably the gem of this entire mod.
Honestly, I'd love a version of this with just the INT and CHA changes that leaves STR and DEX alone, as it could make for a nice change of pace with Paladins and Swashbucklers. (Who I tend to give high CHA)
One functional change I might suggest for the condensed weapons categories is, if you want to be accurate, Morningstars should go under Mace/Club, as besides having spikes, they have little in common with flails.
The ability score nerf, meaning I was doing somewhat less damage, combined with the modified proficiencies, which meant I was also doing less damage, having no specialization at all until third level, meant I was really not faring well in the early part of the game. My Dex was also slightly lower, though probably not enough to matter.
With the intelligence bonus to crits, I was wondering if it stacked with the two handed style bonus to crits, which would make it very useful for that build.
I only have a partial install of the mod, as I did not see any value at all to certain components, like the armor component, which did some messing around with AC values adding DR. Usually with my main characters, I try to go for an "AC Lord" build, which means keeping DEX as high as I can while wearing the best armor items I can find. In BG EE, this, unlike BG II, or ToB, is viable. (Technically, you can manage it with a Swashbucker, at least to a certain point) At any rate, I didn't want to go modding the .ini because it felt too much like cheating, making it a matter of accepting it or not.
I'm suspicious of DR because playing in Normal mode gives you something like 20% effective DR, however, I use Core Rules setting, though I honestly don't notice a vast difference in overall gameplay. (I die about as often in both modes)
I
Both the pair are 81 point characters with
STR: 17
DEX: 16
CON:14
INT: 10
WIS: 11
CHA:13
I didn't have a mage in the party, but Command proved practically useless probably because they were 6th level, and entitled to saves, which they always made.
p.s Or pull Sendai from her group?
1) Does Component 200 combine with Tome and Blood's component that grants extra spells and effective casting levels to mages and sorcerers with high Intelligence and Charisma? Looking at the descriptions of the two components, I fear one overwrites the other, and I like both.
2) With component 200, is there a cap to the Intelligence-based increased critical-hit chance, or will it stack with other skills and weapons? Say, for the sake of argument, an 18 Intelligence warrior (+15%) with two pips in two-hand style (+10%) and the Sword of Ruin from the initial dungeon in SoD (+5%) - does he REALLY have a 30% chance of a critical hit - a crit on a roll of 14 or above??Ah, nevermind, you discussed this above:
The (Tweaks) Dagger/darts and (SoB) Missile weapons (darts/slings) categories overlap, and both appear to work, but neither makes much sense to me thematically, although mechanically - combining weak categories - I see the point.
I wish I could further combine the proficiencies and mods and have daggers, short swords, ninja-tos (which are Large in the Tweaks component) combined in a Small Blades proficiency.
I can see the point for Shield & Sword & Dualwielding, though. (And even then, I say look at Gandalf. He dualwielded a sword AND a quarterstaff.