Okay. Tomorrow or more precisely this evening I'll do fresh reinstall and try yet another BG1 hardcore attempt.
I would expect that, stun should definitely be way more powerful than wing buffet, especially if multiple enemies engage the bashed target.
Later as saving throws will improve the ability will loose on significance, so maybe adding saving throw penalty for high level and/or exceptionally strong warriors would not be bad. Plus consider making certain enemies immune (i.e. dragons).
Hey doctor ! You prob noticed some of my newbie posts in this forum (cause i am new to BG series ). So i finally gathered my mods and installed them BUT when the time came and i started creating my characters the first thing i noticed was that Attributes (Abilities named in BG) arent well made. First of all, WIS, INT, CHA are pretty much useless for pure fighters, meaning that if you go a fighter class you can MAX STR/DEX/CON which is simply LAME and a bad game design. So after noticing all these bad/oudated features of unmodded BG i remembered this mod of yours where i had read *changes on attributes* etc etc. So well done on making INT/CHA/WIS more useful. But i have some suggestions you might like.
Suggestions: 1)Why not make the Saving Throw bonus from CON apply on all races? It will rise the overall value of CON (hence better game).
2)WIS doesnt give anything to fighters Lore wise and realistically, wise ppl are more capable of reading other creatures. Meaning, you could make WIS give either Crit chance, Chance to Hit, Chance to evade (-armor in BG ) and other similar statistics. OFc i dont say WIS should give all of these but a similar bonus would be great, so that WIS become useful for fighters as well.
3)Last and least unimportant!! I think the amount of Attribute points on roll (ability points) is too high. Let me explain. Diversity in characters/classes in games comes when chars/classes DONT have everything. What do i mean? If a fighter can max STR/DEX/CON which are the attributes that he mostly needs then that fighter basically HAS EVERYTHING hence the build diversity part through Attributes is being removed, hence one of strongest aspects of the game. So what i suggest is: Reduce the overall Ability points given from rolls. If previously an average roll would give you 80 points now it will give you 70 (the numbers are examples, the general idea is to reduce the number from rolls). This will result in players making wiser choices regarding on HOW they want to play each class plus will add to the overall difficulty of the game. I hope you see my point of view.
Honestly... many "crazy" ideas come to my head and most of them are probably overhaul type of mechanics and already existing systems. Things such as:
Truly distinguishable races. Example: A fighter Halfling can have 17 STR while a Half-Orc can have 19 STR. Realistically speaking, this difference is laughable . Realistically the half-orc has probably at least twice the STR . So basically what i am thinking is: If the half-orc gets 1 STR per point (which is the most among all races), then the Halfling should get 0.3 STR per point. Ofc this would result in Halfling and Gnomes the worst races to become heavy weapon wielders but TO ME this is beautiful since it makes sense, fits the world, the lore and it gives every race its own unique characteristics. Arent D&D games all about identity/meaning/character/uniqueness after all ? Ofc this is just one example (i can help with ideas on this if you want )
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Yes i agree that Save vs Spells from CON doesnt make sense. According to wiki -> Regeneration: At 20+ constitution scores, characters start regaining lost hit-points automatically. This is not needed..
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I actually like that feature with INT = crit chance (for fighters). It kind of makes sense. And ofc it could be a Feat as well. Hell it could be gained both from Attribute (Ability) and Feat . Its just a matter how u want to balance the game. Other than that nothing negative in it. The point you must not miss is to make all Abilities as useful as possible. So they are all as valuable and competitive as possible with each other (not like in vanilla...).
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I havent check the MnG readme yet. But my idea for classes is the same with races. Classes SHOULD be different and if needed then A LOT different, just like with races. Because the truth is BG has enough meaningless Kits. One example everybody thought of is -> Barb and Bers.... I will expand on that as well. Ill share with you my point of view...
First of all i want to say that your approach to give classes feats is the best way of creating unique characters (as long as the choices are competitive with each other). That being said: The goal should be to make each classes as distinguishable as possible (just like with races). Highlighting their CONs and PROs. To do that you should focus on making sure that the feats given actually do fit the classes. For example dont give something like +Crushing dmg resist to Wizards, something like that would fit perfectly the Monk class and to a lower lvl to fighter class (less crushing dmg resist compare to Monk class).
Regarding to weapon Proficiencies. The part where you sacrifice WPO: Proficiency System Overhaul in order to make some items more usable in the early game is kind of unnecessary (not that before proficiencies were great, i personally wasnt impressed ). So since as you say, you liberalized the weapon use a little more. You could do this hereafter: Make all weapons "usable" by all classes BUT add a serious STR/DEX requirement for them. So, if your character doesnt have enough STR/DEX then he cant wield the weapon (this would fit beautifully with my suggestion about Truly distinguishable races). The above being said, you CAN still have class exclusive weapons. But the goal remains unsolved regarding on how to keep classes unique and highlight their CONs and PROs from Proficiencies. To my understanding in order to achieve this you must keep the maximum of profiencies different. For example, as the Sword Master the Kensai should be the only one that can achieve Grand Master at Katanas/Scimitar etc and the second best/s which could be from Fighter classes to Monk and Thief they should achieve third Master only (third). My point is that the max profieciency is what counts and makes the difference in classes. Because if both Kensai and Fighter can become Grand Masters in Katanas/scimitars then the whole point of classes is lost.
And this bring me (personally) to the point where i see that if you implement enough feats then many kits that didnt made much sense from the start now become useless and are being replaced by a system that offers a real class build option. For example, if you have enough feats you can choose 1 feat every 3 lvls (or every 5 lvls, totally depending on how many feats you have and whats the difficulty you want for the game). So lets say you pick your first feat when you create a character (lvl 1), then at lvl 4 the game gives you 3 other feats from which u can choose only 1. Then again at lvl 7, 10 etc.
Sorry if this has been answered a million times before, but are multiclass characters also still unable to gain feats, like it was when you first implemented the feat system?
Regarding the distribution of various bonuses between stats, one way to force players to spread around their stats a bit might be to give the same bonus from two stats (and reduce the individual bonuses accordingly).
E.g. if both STR and DEX give a thac0 bonus, then players who truly want to maximize thac0 couldn't dump either stat. Similarly, death saving throw could be based on both CON and CHA. And so on. Pillars of Eternity does it that way with its saving throws ("defenses"): Each defense is affected by two attributes.
Haven't really thought it through though, so I'm not sure if it would make sense in your system. It's just an idea.
Now here's the problem: I don't have a good way to make all of these react to in-game stat changes. There is one thing I could do... but I am loathe to do it because there is only one of it available to any mods anywhere, and why should I get to claim it? And if I do claim it, and someone else does also, it would create in incompatibility.
Wouldn't it make sense that a major rule overhaul mod gets to claim it?
And if there are multiple major rule overhaul mods, won't they likely be incompatible anyway?
Actually no, you can't do that - the "bonus crit chance" effect does not stack. So there can only be one source of it in the game. (Aside from fighting styles - the crit chance bonus there does stack with the spell effect.
Does the "bonus crit chance" feat stack with a weapon that gives crits on a roll of 19 or 20?
Regarding the distribution of various bonuses between stats, one way to force players to spread around their stats a bit might be to give the same bonus from two stats (and reduce the individual bonuses accordingly).
E.g. if both STR and DEX give a thac0 bonus, then players who truly want to maximize thac0 couldn't dump either stat. Similarly, death saving throw could be based on both CON and CHA. And so on. Pillars of Eternity does it that way with its saving throws ("defenses"): Each defense is affected by two attributes.
Haven't really thought it through though, so I'm not sure if it would make sense in your system. It's just an idea.
Now here's the problem: I don't have a good way to make all of these react to in-game stat changes. There is one thing I could do... but I am loathe to do it because there is only one of it available to any mods anywhere, and why should I get to claim it? And if I do claim it, and someone else does also, it would create in incompatibility.
Wouldn't it make sense that a major rule overhaul mod gets to claim it?
And if there are multiple major rule overhaul mods, won't they likely be incompatible anyway?
Actually no, you can't do that - the "bonus crit chance" effect does not stack. So there can only be one source of it in the game. (Aside from fighting styles - the crit chance bonus there does stack with the spell effect.
Do these stack though?
A weapon that gives +5% crit chance.
+5% crit chance from one-handed/two-handed weapon style specialization.
@subtledoctor I suggest again to use Opcode 232 for maintaining dynamic effects. Opcode 232 itself needs to be in an EFF called through opcode 177* to bypass some of its hardcoded nature. Timing = 9 param2 = 20 (HP%<) Special = 102*
No matter when during the round it is applied, every instance of this trigger is checked at a set interval(the end) of every round, similar to Modal Abilities, and checking Current HP < 102% will always return true.
*177 - Putting 232 directly in a spell will prevent all effects that follow it and the spell itself from being reapply-able, resulting in the feedback message "You cannot cast multiple instances of the same contingency spell on yourself." Where it's used directly in spells, it's the last effect for a reason.
*102 - Odd values will return a feedback message every single time it triggers("A contingency spell has fired."), so it needs to be an even value, that's why 102% instead of 101%.
That table does make high INT/WIS/CHA desirable even for warriors.
However, it still suffers from the issue that nothing changes at scores below around 14. So if a character can't afford to go that high in a stat (and they won't be able to go that high in all stats), they might as well dump it to the minimum.
This could potentially be fixed by...
1) Giving some small bonuses for scores as low as 11. Obviously, powerful bonuses like +1 Thac0 shouldn't come that early, but getting e.g. a single +1 breath saving throw at CHA 11 won't be unbalancing.
2) Giving corresponding penalties on a score of 9 and lower. (You could even change the minimum score back from 7 to 3, then. If players go that low in a stat, that's their business, but they'll pay for it.)
I would leave the XP bonus from WIS out of this, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Adding it seperately has its merit, though.
Splitting different dynamic bonuses for the same stat into multiple components will just make this needlessly confusing, I think. As long as the README recommends installing a cleric XP table nerf together with this, it'll be fine.
For the reasons I mentioned above, I'm thinking about imposing penalties if you go below 12. I mean let's stop pretending 9 is sn average roll, right? For BG players 12 is below average. So let's treat it that way.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but yes, that makes a lot of sense!
Chargen discards all rolls with a stat total below 75, i.e. even with the worst possible roll, player characters will have 12.5 points per stat. If they reduce a stat below that in order to raise another, it seems fair that they'd get a penalty to make up for the bonus.
Especially when rolls above 90 (i.e. 15 or more points per stat) are quite feasible to attain with a bit of re-rolling...
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PS: Preventing warriors from maxing STR/DEX/CON might tilt the power balance even further in favor of spellcasters who don't depend on (all) stats as much. E.g. a wizard might not care about a hefty Thac0 penalty for STR 7 DEX 7 if they're not using physical attacks anyway. To compensate, you could e.g. add
DEX ≤ 12 → Casting speed penalty.
CON ≤ 12 → Shorter duration for spells that require concentration or that are physically taxing.
Anything that will make a wizard think twice before maxing out INT (for the spells) and CHA (for the luck) and dumping everything else.
PS: If you're running out of penalties to add... Note that while you've given most saving throw bonuses for CHA, there's no reason why multiple stat's can't have penalties for them. E.g. low STR → breath saving throw penalty, because the character is too weak to brace against a current and not be pushed over. Low CON → death and polymorph save penalty, because their body can't resist the attack.
My initial reaction upon seeing those revised stat tables:
Matthew 13:12 - the FM & FMT Edition ☺
"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."
Among other cool stuff in this edition, It's cool to have an approximation of the Weapon Finesse feat at last in games other than IWD2. The Dex bonus to melee helps out thieves a lot, and enables cleric-thieves and mage-thieves to enter melee on somewhat better terms.
Bards, too, can become powerhouses if they focus on Dex, Int, and Cha. How do TomeAndBlood and Scales of Balance work together here? TaB has an option for increasing number of spells and caster levels for Bards based on CHA - SoB has the same based on INT, and I think it applies to bards too. Will these stack bonuses from Cha and Int stack? Should one component be avoided, and if so, which one?
Comments
I would expect that, stun should definitely be way more powerful than wing buffet, especially if multiple enemies engage the bashed target.
Later as saving throws will improve the ability will loose on significance, so maybe adding saving throw penalty for high level and/or exceptionally strong warriors would not be bad. Plus consider making certain enemies immune (i.e. dragons).
You prob noticed some of my newbie posts in this forum (cause i am new to BG series
So i finally gathered my mods and installed them BUT when the time came and i started creating my characters the first thing i noticed was that Attributes (Abilities named in BG) arent well made. First of all, WIS, INT, CHA are pretty much useless for pure fighters, meaning that if you go a fighter class you can MAX STR/DEX/CON which is simply LAME and a bad game design.
So after noticing all these bad/oudated features of unmodded BG i remembered this mod of yours where i had read *changes on attributes* etc etc.
So well done on making INT/CHA/WIS more useful. But i have some suggestions you might like.
Suggestions:
1)Why not make the Saving Throw bonus from CON apply on all races? It will rise the overall value of CON (hence better game).
2)WIS doesnt give anything to fighters
Lore wise and realistically, wise ppl are more capable of reading other creatures. Meaning, you could make WIS give either Crit chance, Chance to Hit, Chance to evade (-armor in BG
3)Last and least unimportant!!
I think the amount of Attribute points on roll (ability points) is too high. Let me explain. Diversity in characters/classes in games comes when chars/classes DONT have everything. What do i mean? If a fighter can max STR/DEX/CON which are the attributes that he mostly needs then that fighter basically HAS EVERYTHING hence the build diversity part through Attributes is being removed, hence one of strongest aspects of the game. So what i suggest is: Reduce the overall Ability points given from rolls. If previously an average roll would give you 80 points now it will give you 70 (the numbers are examples, the general idea is to reduce the number from rolls). This will result in players making wiser choices regarding on HOW they want to play each class plus will add to the overall difficulty of the game.
I hope you see my point of view.
(i will probably be back with more ideas
Honestly... many "crazy" ideas come to my head and most of them are probably overhaul type of mechanics and already existing systems. Things such as:
Truly distinguishable races.
Example: A fighter Halfling can have 17 STR while a Half-Orc can have 19 STR. Realistically speaking, this difference is laughable
So basically what i am thinking is: If the half-orc gets 1 STR per point (which is the most among all races), then the Halfling should get 0.3 STR per point.
Ofc this would result in Halfling and Gnomes the worst races to become heavy weapon wielders but TO ME this is beautiful since it makes sense, fits the world, the lore and it gives every race its own unique characteristics. Arent D&D games all about identity/meaning/character/uniqueness after all ?
Ofc this is just one example (i can help with ideas on this if you want
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Yes i agree that Save vs Spells from CON doesnt make sense.
According to wiki -> Regeneration: At 20+ constitution scores, characters start regaining lost hit-points automatically. This is not needed..
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I actually like that feature with INT = crit chance (for fighters). It kind of makes sense. And ofc it could be a Feat as well. Hell it could be gained both from Attribute (Ability) and Feat
---
I havent check the MnG readme yet. But my idea for classes is the same with races. Classes SHOULD be different and if needed then A LOT different, just like with races. Because the truth is BG has enough meaningless Kits. One example everybody thought of is -> Barb and Bers....
I will expand on that as well. Ill share with you my point of view...
First of all i want to say that your approach to give classes feats is the best way of creating unique characters (as long as the choices are competitive with each other).
That being said: The goal should be to make each classes as distinguishable as possible (just like with races). Highlighting their CONs and PROs. To do that you should focus on making sure that the feats given actually do fit the classes. For example dont give something like +Crushing dmg resist to Wizards, something like that would fit perfectly the Monk class and to a lower lvl to fighter class (less crushing dmg resist compare to Monk class).
Regarding to weapon Proficiencies.
The part where you sacrifice WPO: Proficiency System Overhaul in order to make some items more usable in the early game is kind of unnecessary (not that before proficiencies were great, i personally wasnt impressed
So since as you say, you liberalized the weapon use a little more. You could do this hereafter: Make all weapons "usable" by all classes BUT add a serious STR/DEX requirement for them. So, if your character doesnt have enough STR/DEX then he cant wield the weapon (this would fit beautifully with my suggestion about Truly distinguishable races).
The above being said, you CAN still have class exclusive weapons.
But the goal remains unsolved regarding on how to keep classes unique and highlight their CONs and PROs from Proficiencies. To my understanding in order to achieve this you must keep the maximum of profiencies different. For example, as the Sword Master the Kensai should be the only one that can achieve Grand Master at Katanas/Scimitar etc and the second best/s which could be from Fighter classes to Monk and Thief they should achieve third Master only (third).
My point is that the max profieciency is what counts and makes the difference in classes. Because if both Kensai and Fighter can become Grand Masters in Katanas/scimitars then the whole point of classes is lost.
And this bring me (personally) to the point where i see that if you implement enough feats then many kits that didnt made much sense from the start now become useless and are being replaced by a system that offers a real class build option.
For example, if you have enough feats you can choose 1 feat every 3 lvls (or every 5 lvls, totally depending on how many feats you have and whats the difficulty you want for the game). So lets say you pick your first feat when you create a character (lvl 1), then at lvl 4 the game gives you 3 other feats from which u can choose only 1. Then again at lvl 7, 10 etc.
E.g. if both STR and DEX give a thac0 bonus, then players who truly want to maximize thac0 couldn't dump either stat. Similarly, death saving throw could be based on both CON and CHA. And so on.
Pillars of Eternity does it that way with its saving throws ("defenses"): Each defense is affected by two attributes.
Haven't really thought it through though, so I'm not sure if it would make sense in your system. It's just an idea. Wouldn't it make sense that a major rule overhaul mod gets to claim it?
And if there are multiple major rule overhaul mods, won't they likely be incompatible anyway? Does the "bonus crit chance" feat stack with a weapon that gives crits on a roll of 19 or 20?
E.g. if both STR and DEX give a thac0 bonus, then players who truly want to maximize thac0 couldn't dump either stat. Similarly, death saving throw could be based on both CON and CHA. And so on.
Pillars of Eternity does it that way with its saving throws ("defenses"): Each defense is affected by two attributes.
Haven't really thought it through though, so I'm not sure if it would make sense in your system. It's just an idea. Wouldn't it make sense that a major rule overhaul mod gets to claim it?
And if there are multiple major rule overhaul mods, won't they likely be incompatible anyway? Do these stack though?
I suggest again to use Opcode 232 for maintaining dynamic effects.
Opcode 232 itself needs to be in an EFF called through opcode 177* to bypass some of its hardcoded nature.
Timing = 9
param2 = 20 (HP%<)
Special = 102*
No matter when during the round it is applied, every instance of this trigger is checked at a set interval(the end) of every round, similar to Modal Abilities, and checking Current HP < 102% will always return true.
*177 - Putting 232 directly in a spell will prevent all effects that follow it and the spell itself from being reapply-able, resulting in the feedback message "You cannot cast multiple instances of the same contingency spell on yourself." Where it's used directly in spells, it's the last effect for a reason.
*102 - Odd values will return a feedback message every single time it triggers("A contingency spell has fired."), so it needs to be an even value, that's why 102% instead of 101%.
That table does make high INT/WIS/CHA desirable even for warriors.
However, it still suffers from the issue that nothing changes at scores below around 14. So if a character can't afford to go that high in a stat (and they won't be able to go that high in all stats), they might as well dump it to the minimum.
This could potentially be fixed by...
1) Giving some small bonuses for scores as low as 11. Obviously, powerful bonuses like +1 Thac0 shouldn't come that early, but getting e.g. a single +1 breath saving throw at CHA 11 won't be unbalancing.
2) Giving corresponding penalties on a score of 9 and lower. (You could even change the minimum score back from 7 to 3, then. If players go that low in a stat, that's their business, but they'll pay for it.) Splitting different dynamic bonuses for the same stat into multiple components will just make this needlessly confusing, I think. As long as the README recommends installing a cleric XP table nerf together with this, it'll be fine.
Chargen discards all rolls with a stat total below 75, i.e. even with the worst possible roll, player characters will have 12.5 points per stat. If they reduce a stat below that in order to raise another, it seems fair that they'd get a penalty to make up for the bonus.
Especially when rolls above 90 (i.e. 15 or more points per stat) are quite feasible to attain with a bit of re-rolling...
---
PS: Preventing warriors from maxing STR/DEX/CON might tilt the power balance even further in favor of spellcasters who don't depend on (all) stats as much. E.g. a wizard might not care about a hefty Thac0 penalty for STR 7 DEX 7 if they're not using physical attacks anyway. To compensate, you could e.g. add
- DEX ≤ 12 → Casting speed penalty.
- CON ≤ 12 → Shorter duration for spells that require concentration or that are physically taxing.
Anything that will make a wizard think twice before maxing out INT (for the spells) and CHA (for the luck) and dumping everything else.PS: If you're running out of penalties to add... Note that while you've given most saving throw bonuses for CHA, there's no reason why multiple stat's can't have penalties for them. E.g. low STR → breath saving throw penalty, because the character is too weak to brace against a current and not be pushed over. Low CON → death and polymorph save penalty, because their body can't resist the attack.
Removing the XP bonus from the stat component (cfr CON), just means that there is a seperate XP component, not an extra stat component.
Matthew 13:12 - the FM & FMT Edition ☺
"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."
Among other cool stuff in this edition, It's cool to have an approximation of the Weapon Finesse feat at last in games other than IWD2. The Dex bonus to melee helps out thieves a lot, and enables cleric-thieves and mage-thieves to enter melee on somewhat better terms.
Bards, too, can become powerhouses if they focus on Dex, Int, and Cha. How do TomeAndBlood and Scales of Balance work together here? TaB has an option for increasing number of spells and caster levels for Bards based on CHA - SoB has the same based on INT, and I think it applies to bards too. Will these stack bonuses from Cha and Int stack? Should one component be avoided, and if so, which one?