Actually, restricing twohanded weapons for purpose of "casting" is silly. You can easily hold such a weapon with one hand while casting. I can see the point for Shield & Sword & Dualwielding, though. (And even then, I say look at Gandalf. He dualwielded a sword AND a quarterstaff. )
Actually, restricing twohanded weapons for purpose of "casting" is silly. You can easily hold such a weapon with one hand while casting. I can see the point for Shield & Sword & Dualwielding, though. (And even then, I say look at Gandalf. He dualwielded a sword AND a quarterstaff. )
Not quite. The point is not about being able to cast while holding the weapon idly. Its about the ability to cast, while parrying or even swinging at your foe (which is what happens in BG, you both cast AND make your attacks per round). You definitely can not do that with halberd or greatsword, but it could be doable with wizards staff.
Gandalf is my most favorite fictional character, but he isn't really good example when trying to balance classes in dnd based game
Eh that was actually fine. He was good swordsman in the books as well and it was definitely better, than if he would spam fire and lightning bolts at every orc around.
Eh that was actually fine. He was good swordsman in the books as well and it was definitely better, than if he would spam fire and lightning bolts at every orc around.
Agree, but it is one thing to be master of both sword and magic and another thing to perform spell while swinging with sword.
I noticed as well, that mages are missing the bonus wizard spells from high Int. (Only because you mentioned it in another thread.) Furthermore the AC-bonuses from high dexterity don´t match the description. My warrior has a bonus of -6 AC with a dexterity of 19 (should only be 4). I don´t know if it is a bug or intended and only the description is not up to date.
Another minor thing regarding the Revised Monk Fists from MnG. It seems that the icons for normal- and ki-fists are reversed. Or do I get something wrong?
And hey, I´m very happy about the upcoming release of your Faiths and Powers mod. Should be awesome.
Will the spells from IWDification be integrated in the new release? Because I still have problems with some of the spells not working as intended. Additionally I noticed some false strings when activating innate abilities. I guess, that the FnP-beta, which I currently use, is not EET-compatible.
Actually, restricing twohanded weapons for purpose of "casting" is silly. You can easily hold such a weapon with one hand while casting. I can see the point for Shield & Sword & Dualwielding, though. (And even then, I say look at Gandalf. He dualwielded a sword AND a quarterstaff. )
Not quite. The point is not about being able to cast while holding the weapon idly. Its about the ability to cast, while parrying or even swinging at your foe (which is what happens in BG, you both cast AND make your attacks per round). You definitely can not do that with halberd or greatsword, but it could be doable with wizards staff.
Gandalf is my most favorite fictional character, but he isn't really good example when trying to balance classes in dnd based game
Eh that was actually fine. He was good swordsman in the books as well and it was definitely better, than if he would spam fire and lightning bolts at every orc around.
I'm basing my idea on the fact that some "twohanded styles", like quarterstaff fighting & bastardsword fighting actually switch between one- and twohanded uses. (Given my own limited martial experience.) Anyway, especially in a fantasy setting, it doesn't seem so far fetched that twohanded weapon styles would incorporate casting techniques. Also, for what it is worth, the D&D rules (in any edition, as far as I know) have always allowed for casting while wielding twohanded weapons without restriction. Finally, I don't think that twohanded weapons are so much more powerful than one-handed weapons that F/M should be barred from using them on "balance" grounds, especially with the revisions to SWS/Fencing. I'm in favour of granting them specialisation in twohanded style solely so you can have different visuals in your party.
I noticed as well, that mages are missing the bonus wizard spells from high Int. (Only because you mentioned it in another thread.) Furthermore the AC-bonuses from high dexterity don´t match the description. My warrior has a bonus of -6 AC with a dexterity of 19 (should only be 4). I don´t know if it is a bug or intended and only the description is not up to date.
Another minor thing regarding the Revised Monk Fists from MnG. It seems that the icons for normal- and ki-fists are reversed. Or do I get something wrong?
And hey, I´m very happy about the upcoming release of your Faiths and Powers mod. Should be awesome.
Will the spells from IWDification be integrated in the new release? Because I still have problems with some of the spells not working as intended. Additionally I noticed some false strings when activating innate abilities. I guess, that the FnP-beta, which I currently use, is not EET-compatible.
Oh, I see that you installed both FnP and IWDIFICATION divine pack... I couldn't check your log on my cell.
I suggest that you do not install the IWDIFICATION divine pack, actually. I think that a) you will be missing out on a few spells, and b) as Subtledoctor says, the implementation may not be perfect.
Ok Installed, i am going to do some compatability testings. Few questions about components:
1) Removing magic resistance and replacing it by saves sounds really cool. Spamming fireballs on drow parties is something I always wanted to do. Could you share any feedback how it actually affects gameplay? Most notably doesn't it render save or die spells even more useless (e.g. Pierce magic+Malison on dragons tactic now might not work).
2) YARAS seems really like step forward when compared to Item revisions. I have my classic concern about AC thought - how much it nerfs AC total in later parts of BG 2?
3) How exactly does shield bash work currently ?
4) Full STR from 2-hand only - I like the idea in theory, but stat penalty seems way to inelegant (and I can't imagine selling it to my friends). Wouldn't it be better to perhaps revamp 2 handed weapons (i.e. more dmg and str requirement).
5) What happened to my favorite Monitor of Mystra kit from M&G ? :P
Subtledoctor and Aquadrizzt, Thank you for your hard work.
I've just played around with this a little. The interplay between T&B (0.7) and SoB works to some extent, but something is off. Weidu included at the end of this post. This is a bare-bones minimal-mod install for testing, so I don't think there's interference from other mods.
1) Unlike the descriptions of STR, DEX, CON, INT, and WIS, the sorcerer bonus spell and casting level boni from Charisma do not show up in the descriptions of ability scores during character creation. I suppose this is because SoB overwrites the descriptions from T&B (if there are any). The description of INT is definitely from SoB (% for crit hits and bonus spells). SoB was installed last.
2) The T&B Bonuses are clearly there in the background, but not consistently. I don't know if this is a stand-alone T&B issue or is due to the combination with SoB, which of course also modifies CHA. Example: a level 7, 18 charisma sorcerer fires off 4 magic missiles (which is fine, the 18 Cha adds +1 casting level, so level 8 = 4 missiles). A level 8, 18 charisma sorcerer fires 5 magic missiles (fine, the 18 Cha adds +1 casting level, so level 9, = 5 missiles); BUT a level 7, 19 Cha sorcerer still only fires 4 missiles and not the 5 he should've had from +2 casting levels, and this is so regardless of whether the +1 Cha (going from a natural 18 to a 19) was added through EEkeeper or from the Tome of Leadership and Understanding EEkeepered into a savegame and then activated (a meandering path towards the +1 Cha chosen due to the warning in T&B readme about adding Cha bonus from mods). This persists even after waiting for a while and resting repeatedly, etc. I chose this example because it is very easy to see if something's amiss, just count the missiles.
WeidU:
// Log of Currently Installed WeiDU Mods // The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod // ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // [Subcomponent Name -> ] Component Name [ : Version] ~SKIPCHATEAUIRENICUS/SETUP-SKIPCHATEAUIRENICUS.TP2~ #0 #0 // Skip Chateau Irenicus: 2.3 ~SKIPCHATEAUIRENICUS/SETUP-SKIPCHATEAUIRENICUS.TP2~ #0 #102 // Deal with skipped NPCs -> All available NPCs: 2.3 ~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2020 // Two-Handed Bastard Swords: Beta 5 ~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2030 // Two-Handed Katanas: Beta 5 ~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2035 // Two-Handed Axes: Beta 5 ~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2060 // Weapon Styles for All: Beta 5 ~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2163 // Alter Weapon Proficiency System -> IWD-Style Proficiencies with Weapon Styles: Beta 5 ~TOMEANDBLOOD/SETUP-TOMEANDBLOOD.TP2~ #0 #0 // Revised Specialists: 0.7 ~TOMEANDBLOOD/SETUP-TOMEANDBLOOD.TP2~ #0 #1 // Revised Dragon Disciples: 0.7 ~TOMEANDBLOOD/SETUP-TOMEANDBLOOD.TP2~ #0 #14 // Ability Score Bonuses: 0.7 ~SCALES_OF_BALANCE/SCALES_OF_BALANCE.TP2~ #0 #124 // WPO - Fighting Style Changes: v5.5.6 ~SCALES_OF_BALANCE/SCALES_OF_BALANCE.TP2~ #0 #200 // SBO - Stat Bonus Overhaul: v5.5.6
Cheers. I thought as much regarding my first comment, and the game works, text or no. The second question is more important. So it's a T&B thing specifically. I'll let @Aquadrizzt know.
One of the things I realized playing with the revised fighting styles component, and it's a good addition to the game, my favorite, in fact, is that Two Weapon style is still rather unbalanced, not so much as far as the direct benefits it gives you with the extra attack, but by virtue of the fact that so many swords (in particular) offer a host of immunities to various things, that not only are you getting that extra attack, but also the fringe benefits that go along with the extra weapon.
This makes me think that:
(A:) Fencing should offer another attack per round, in addition to the current benefits the component gives
(B) Shields in general need to be buffed.
We also probably need some good mod shields out there that do more than the current ones. It's a bit silly that weapons offer more defensive abilities and immunities than most shields do.
One of the points in which the whole D20 system fails in, is in regards to how it handles defense vs real combat. In D&D, you main line of defense (in order of importance) is armor (in various guises), dexterity, and shield. In real life, your main line of defense is your weapon, then your shield, dexterity, and finally armor, if all else fails. This is why, in my DMing days, I instituted a rule than anytime your Attack bonus went up, for whatever reason, your defense bonus to AC also went up. Of course, I also capped Base Attack Bonus at +10 at 20th level.
This would change things to be more realistic, because in real life a man with nothing but a sword and shield is still perfectly capable of successfully defending themselves, because armor is only a tertiary defense, while in D&D the same individual against anything like peer enemies is going to be very, very dead in no time.
I'm not certain this will work in a 2nd edition framework like we have here, but perhaps it's something that might be considered as a starting point.
Yeah, a lot of things really start to break down in SoA.
Personally, I still think that adding the +1 APR to SWS while letting it keep all the other benefits you've given it in earlier updates is the way to go. Sure, it's going to be very powerful, especially at low levels, but will making choosing between SWS and TWS a real dilemma.
Currently, I only have my party clerics like Bran and Vici investing in Weapon and Shield Style, which even with the buffs you've added still comes out the loser, with fighting characters. Two Handed Style is pretty much strictly the province of Minsc, Saravok, or anyone planning on using Carsomyr or the Silver Blade, but it's a nice extra add-on for those characters.
The style itself is not the problem, the power level of off hand items is. This means that the style only gets out of hand in latter part of SoA and only if player beelines these items. With stuff like Item revisions or Item randomizer present, the issue becomes much less severe.
Yes one extra attack is very strong benefit, but off hand attack does not equal main hand attack - there is no thac0 bonus from Str and off hand weapon will generally be way less powerful than main hand weapon. Plus the style itself gives penalties to main hand thac0 even when specialized.
If you give SWS half attack on each pip, than we will have following scenario: Trueclass fighters or 13 INT warriors will start with 2 attacks on level 1, with extra thac0 and AC and getting much stronger every 3 levels. Now compare it to play fair dualwielder in BG with say longsword and shortsword.
If you wish to fix dual wield, you'll have to concentrate on the offending items. The style itself is very much balanced if used with fair items.
What needs buffing are two handed weapons and more importantly shields. Shield bash is cute, but so far it seems to have very minor actual effect on combat itself.
Comments
Gandalf is my most favorite fictional character, but he isn't really good example when trying to balance classes in dnd based game
PLAT06 Ankheg Plate Mail
BDPLAT03 Bloody Bone Plate +2
BDPLAT01 Daeros's Full Plate +1
PLAT11 Delver's Plate +2
PLAT12 Doomplate +3
PLAT 02 Fallorain's Plate +1
PLAT13 Gorgon Plate +4
SOAIM02 Kalindra's Armor
PLAT01 Plate Mail
PLAT10 Plate Mail +1
OHPLAT50 Plate Mail +2
BDPLAT04 Rhino Beetle Plate
PLAT17 T'rachie's Plate +5
PLAT24 The Magma Bulwak +2
PLAT08 The Practical Defence +3
X#GARCH Bardic Chain
L#WILARM Beary Powerful Dragon Scale Armor
As you may see majority of this are Heavy Armor.
I noticed as well, that mages are missing the bonus wizard spells from high Int. (Only because you mentioned it in another thread.) Furthermore the AC-bonuses from high dexterity don´t match the description. My warrior has a bonus of -6 AC with a dexterity of 19 (should only be 4). I don´t know if it is a bug or intended and only the description is not up to date.
Another minor thing regarding the Revised Monk Fists from MnG. It seems that the icons for normal- and ki-fists are reversed. Or do I get something wrong?
And hey, I´m very happy about the upcoming release of your Faiths and Powers mod. Should be awesome.
Will the spells from IWDification be integrated in the new release? Because I still have problems with some of the spells not working as intended.
Additionally I noticed some false strings when activating innate abilities. I guess, that the FnP-beta, which I currently use, is not EET-compatible.
Anyway, especially in a fantasy setting, it doesn't seem so far fetched that twohanded weapon styles would incorporate casting techniques.
Also, for what it is worth, the D&D rules (in any edition, as far as I know) have always allowed for casting while wielding twohanded weapons without restriction.
Finally, I don't think that twohanded weapons are so much more powerful than one-handed weapons that F/M should be barred from using them on "balance" grounds, especially with the revisions to SWS/Fencing. I'm in favour of granting them specialisation in twohanded style solely so you can have different visuals in your party.
Are you having trouble with spells from iwdification or from my spell mod ( or fnp?)
I can't help with iwdification, but if one of the others, what spells are you having trouble with?
Edit: by "my spell mod", I mean:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/59668/iwd-divine-spells-in-bgee-sod-and-bg2ee/p1
Edit2: reading closer, I see you are using the fnp beta:
So, yeah, what spells are giving you problems? I have not tested extensively on eet
I suggest that you do not install the IWDIFICATION divine pack, actually. I think that a) you will be missing out on a few spells, and b) as Subtledoctor says, the implementation may not be perfect.
Thanks for your replies. Good to know, that only the descriptions are outdated. Much easier to fix.
Regarding FnP I will wait for the new beta and check if my problems persist in the new version.
Hope I can check it soon.
Shouldn't be long...
1) Removing magic resistance and replacing it by saves sounds really cool. Spamming fireballs on drow parties is something I always wanted to do. Could you share any feedback how it actually affects gameplay? Most notably doesn't it render save or die spells even more useless (e.g. Pierce magic+Malison on dragons tactic now might not work).
2) YARAS seems really like step forward when compared to Item revisions. I have my classic concern about AC thought - how much it nerfs AC total in later parts of BG 2?
3) How exactly does shield bash work currently ?
4) Full STR from 2-hand only - I like the idea in theory, but stat penalty seems way to inelegant (and I can't imagine selling it to my friends). Wouldn't it be better to perhaps revamp 2 handed weapons (i.e. more dmg and str requirement).
5) What happened to my favorite Monitor of Mystra kit from M&G ? :P
Subtledoctor and Aquadrizzt, Thank you for your hard work.
I've just played around with this a little. The interplay between T&B (0.7) and SoB works to some extent, but something is off. Weidu included at the end of this post. This is a bare-bones minimal-mod install for testing, so I don't think there's interference from other mods.
1) Unlike the descriptions of STR, DEX, CON, INT, and WIS, the sorcerer bonus spell and casting level boni from Charisma do not show up in the descriptions of ability scores during character creation. I suppose this is because SoB overwrites the descriptions from T&B (if there are any). The description of INT is definitely from SoB (% for crit hits and bonus spells). SoB was installed last.
2) The T&B Bonuses are clearly there in the background, but not consistently. I don't know if this is a stand-alone T&B issue or is due to the combination with SoB, which of course also modifies CHA.
Example: a level 7, 18 charisma sorcerer fires off 4 magic missiles (which is fine, the 18 Cha adds +1 casting level, so level 8 = 4 missiles). A level 8, 18 charisma sorcerer fires 5 magic missiles (fine, the 18 Cha adds +1 casting level, so level 9, = 5 missiles); BUT a level 7, 19 Cha sorcerer still only fires 4 missiles and not the 5 he should've had from +2 casting levels, and this is so regardless of whether the +1 Cha (going from a natural 18 to a 19) was added through EEkeeper or from the Tome of Leadership and Understanding EEkeepered into a savegame and then activated (a meandering path towards the +1 Cha chosen due to the warning in T&B readme about adding Cha bonus from mods). This persists even after waiting for a while and resting repeatedly, etc. I chose this example because it is very easy to see if something's amiss, just count the missiles.
WeidU:
// Log of Currently Installed WeiDU Mods
// The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod
// ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // [Subcomponent Name -> ] Component Name [ : Version]
~SKIPCHATEAUIRENICUS/SETUP-SKIPCHATEAUIRENICUS.TP2~ #0 #0 // Skip Chateau Irenicus: 2.3
~SKIPCHATEAUIRENICUS/SETUP-SKIPCHATEAUIRENICUS.TP2~ #0 #102 // Deal with skipped NPCs -> All available NPCs: 2.3
~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2020 // Two-Handed Bastard Swords: Beta 5
~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2030 // Two-Handed Katanas: Beta 5
~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2035 // Two-Handed Axes: Beta 5
~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2060 // Weapon Styles for All: Beta 5
~CDTWEAKS/SETUP-CDTWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2163 // Alter Weapon Proficiency System -> IWD-Style Proficiencies with Weapon Styles: Beta 5
~TOMEANDBLOOD/SETUP-TOMEANDBLOOD.TP2~ #0 #0 // Revised Specialists: 0.7
~TOMEANDBLOOD/SETUP-TOMEANDBLOOD.TP2~ #0 #1 // Revised Dragon Disciples: 0.7
~TOMEANDBLOOD/SETUP-TOMEANDBLOOD.TP2~ #0 #14 // Ability Score Bonuses: 0.7
~SCALES_OF_BALANCE/SCALES_OF_BALANCE.TP2~ #0 #124 // WPO - Fighting Style Changes: v5.5.6
~SCALES_OF_BALANCE/SCALES_OF_BALANCE.TP2~ #0 #200 // SBO - Stat Bonus Overhaul: v5.5.6
EDIT: typos and brain farts.
This makes me think that:
(A:) Fencing should offer another attack per round, in addition to the current benefits the component gives
(B) Shields in general need to be buffed.
We also probably need some good mod shields out there that do more than the current ones. It's a bit silly that weapons offer more defensive abilities and immunities than most shields do.
One of the points in which the whole D20 system fails in, is in regards to how it handles defense vs real combat. In D&D, you main line of defense (in order of importance) is armor (in various guises), dexterity, and shield. In real life, your main line of defense is your weapon, then your shield, dexterity, and finally armor, if all else fails. This is why, in my DMing days, I instituted a rule than anytime your Attack bonus went up, for whatever reason, your defense bonus to AC also went up. Of course, I also capped Base Attack Bonus at +10 at 20th level.
This would change things to be more realistic, because in real life a man with nothing but a sword and shield is still perfectly capable of successfully defending themselves, because armor is only a tertiary defense, while in D&D the same individual against anything like peer enemies is going to be very, very dead in no time.
I'm not certain this will work in a 2nd edition framework like we have here, but perhaps it's something that might be considered as a starting point.
Personally, I still think that adding the +1 APR to SWS while letting it keep all the other benefits you've given it in earlier updates is the way to go. Sure, it's going to be very powerful, especially at low levels, but will making choosing between SWS and TWS a real dilemma.
Currently, I only have my party clerics like Bran and Vici investing in Weapon and Shield Style, which even with the buffs you've added still comes out the loser, with fighting characters. Two Handed Style is pretty much strictly the province of Minsc, Saravok, or anyone planning on using Carsomyr or the Silver Blade, but it's a nice extra add-on for those characters.
Yes one extra attack is very strong benefit, but off hand attack does not equal main hand attack - there is no thac0 bonus from Str and off hand weapon will generally be way less powerful than main hand weapon. Plus the style itself gives penalties to main hand thac0 even when specialized.
If you give SWS half attack on each pip, than we will have following scenario: Trueclass fighters or 13 INT warriors will start with 2 attacks on level 1, with extra thac0 and AC and getting much stronger every 3 levels. Now compare it to play fair dualwielder in BG with say longsword and shortsword.
If you wish to fix dual wield, you'll have to concentrate on the offending items. The style itself is very much balanced if used with fair items.
What needs buffing are two handed weapons and more importantly shields. Shield bash is cute, but so far it seems to have very minor actual effect on combat itself.