Multiclass fighters shouldn't be on par with a single class. They have a whole second class to draw on that already makes them stronger than any single class in the game.
Multiclass fighters shouldn't be on par with a single class. They have a whole second class to draw on that already makes them stronger than any single class in the game.
While you are generally right, there is doesn't mean that multi-classes should be balanced in a way by nerfing THAC0 or APR: I'm personally think that current SoB state around APR/weapon styles/weapon proficiency is around perfect.
Just try look on same thing from different side: why level 40 fighter in game are worse than level 20 fighter/anything, even if you doesn't account second class? And because game generally balanced around level 20 - there is in my taste more issue to pure class design, but not multis.
@subtledoctor Sorry to bother you again, but for some reason dual wielding at ++ gives both my main hand and off hand +4 thac0 malus. Despite dual wielding daggers, or short (main) + dagger (off). That doesn't seem right...unless readme is dated on this part again.
Also, any idea why does my thac0 infobox in inventory screen say: base thac0 18 (ok) str mod -1 (17 str, ok) proficiencies -1 (++ ok) long sword -1 (not ok, wielding a regular non-enchanted)
@subtledoctor Sorry to bother you again, but for some reason dual wielding at ++ gives both my main hand and off hand +4 thac0 malus. Despite dual wielding daggers, or short (main) + dagger (off). That doesn't seem right...unless readme is dated on this part again.
Also, any idea why does my thac0 infobox in inventory screen say: base thac0 18 (ok) str mod -1 (17 str, ok) proficiencies -1 (++ ok) long sword -1 (not ok, wielding a regular non-enchanted)
Even my fists are -1 thac0. What gives?
My guess: You have installed the Stat overhaul and get a +1 melee THAC0 from Dex?
@GawainBS Nope, dex bonus is listed as "ability bonuses"
EDIT: Disregard. You are right about that one, just checked on halfling thief with 19 dex, his short sword says -2 and high quality dagger -3 which seems like the case. No idea what hides behind ability bonuses then. EEKeeper says it's D5_TWF2 effect.
EDIT: Oh boy, now I'm even more confused. The D5_DWF2 activates after a second or two when wielding a short sword. So a single short sword gets a -2 thac0 for no apparent reason. The D5_DWF3 is added when you wield a dagger for a total of -4 to thac0.
So the script improperly assigns bonuses from dual-wield proficiency and/or light weapon when single wielding. And wielding a shorty in main and dagg in off (or vice versa) gives both hands a -2 bonus and +4 malus. Wielding double daggers gives me both -4 bonus and +4 malus to cancel each other out for ++ in dual wield. Script seems kinda messy...
So I can have a single dagger with thac0 10 right now, single short with 12, or short sword + dagger with thac0 16/16 or double daggers with thac0 14/14.
I went by the readme and didn't instal any conflicting mods. Just some ease-of-use tweaks from cdtweaks, rogues rebalanced mod (but not the core which is said to conflict, mostly the bard enhancements).
The completely unconflicting mods are wizard slayer rebalance, archer rebalance, monastic orders, tomeandblood, msfm (magic styles or something), some extra items and portraits.
Scales of Balance were installed last over any previous mods anyway.
Found another thing. My dwarven fighter3/cleric4 with 19 CON has following saving throws with the ST overhaul: death 11 wand 13 poly 11 breath 13 spell 13
Without overhaul: death 4 wand 8 poly 12 breath 15 spell 9
So did dwarves/halflings/gnomes lose their CON bonus in the overhaul? Their ST are on par with non-shorty characters.
EDIT: probably unrelated since uninstalling SoB did nothing to it...maybe it's the 2.5 IWDEE beta bug... Saving throws from items don't show up on character sheet. Saving throws remain the same before and after equipping.
I see...are you perhaps planning on updating char creation screen and other sheets changed by the mod or at least the readme?
Because shorty-race pages list CON bonuses while readme is conveniently silent in that regard. Using the mod feels kinda like buying a cat in a bag to me at this point.
Archer is not allowed to progress past +++ in bows/crossbows. The + sign in level up screen is available but clicking on it does nothing, doesn't add the 4th point, neither spends the point.
What about dividing Component #200: Stat Bonus Overhaul (SBO) into 6 sub-components? (so that one can install the stat(s) he/she wants to be revised...... -> For instance, I'm just interested in STR, DEX and maybe CHA......)
What about dividing Component #200: Stat Bonus Overhaul (SBO) into 6 sub-components? (so that one can install the stat(s) he/she wants to be revised...... -> For instance, I'm just interested in STR, DEX and maybe CHA......)
Clever suggestion!
Love Charisma overhaul as it stops being a dump stat and actually does something for bard and paladins. Dex giving melee thac0 at high levels is superb for melee fighter/thieves. Not a fan of specialization from INT bonuses + I would lower required INT for spell save bonuses - 17+ for any noticable effect is too high.
Am a fan of WIS bonus to XP - multi-classed/dual-classed clerics level up meaningfully faster. Am in to have CON ST bonuses (perhaps with a lower cap than in vanilla) for shorties back. (+3 at 18 CON or the like)
I think the shorty save bonuses are leftovers tied to the racial level limit rules pre dnd 3.0 edition. Makes sense to have the shorty bonuses if you can't advance beyond level 12 as a demi human and all the humans in the party have gotten to level 18. Of course, it's still OP for low level parties.
13 INT: an extra proficiency every 10 levels (10, 20 - so +2 overall) 15 INT: an extra proficiency every 7 levels (7, 14, 21 - so +3 overall) 17 INT: an extra proficiency every 5 levels (5, 10, 15, 20 - so +4 overall)
(That would probably be only for warriors.)
Seems fine for only warriors. For the save vs. spell bonuses from INT, I wouldn't necessarily up the total number but just lower the thresholds - say +1 save for 13-15 INT, +2 for 16-18 ad so on. It will still be a dump stat for non-casters but at least you can now consider getting an extra +1/+2 in creation. It just feels to me like the gap of "do something" and "do nothing" is too large while the other revised stats always do something.
As for the shorty bonuses I can't say anything in defense of them, I just like them as it promoted a diverse party in vanilla game (My parties are basically fellowships of the ring in terms of races). If they are omitted completely (and I actually quite like your sugestion of giving them inherent +2 death for dwarves, +2 breath halfling, +2 spells gnomes since you are otherwise doing away with them, if at all). I think, if it had been said in readme (with an explanation of "this is not really balanced") and in the race's description in char creation screen that the bonuses were in fact gone, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I consider serious modders people who know better than me.
Leaving this here, just in case you didn't note my above post:
"Archer is not allowed to progress past +++ in bows/crossbows. The + sign in level up screen is available but clicking on it does nothing, doesn't add the 4th point, neither spends the point." Or is it my game only?
@subtledoctor Thought so too that could be the case when I encountered it except I was level 9 at the time, consoling experience for levels of ~15 adding 2 more profs did nothing to solve this bug. Had to keeper it.
Comments
Thank you.
Just try look on same thing from different side: why level 40 fighter in game are worse than level 20 fighter/anything, even if you doesn't account second class? And because game generally balanced around level 20 - there is in my taste more issue to pure class design, but not multis.
That doesn't seem right...unless readme is dated on this part again.
Also, any idea why does my thac0 infobox in inventory screen say:
base thac0 18 (ok)
str mod -1 (17 str, ok)
proficiencies -1 (++ ok)
long sword -1 (not ok, wielding a regular non-enchanted)
Even my fists are -1 thac0. What gives?
EDIT: Disregard. You are right about that one, just checked on halfling thief with 19 dex, his short sword says -2 and high quality dagger -3 which seems like the case. No idea what hides behind ability bonuses then. EEKeeper says it's D5_TWF2 effect.
The dual wield question stands though.
EDIT:
Oh boy, now I'm even more confused. The D5_DWF2 activates after a second or two when wielding a short sword. So a single short sword gets a -2 thac0 for no apparent reason. The D5_DWF3 is added when you wield a dagger for a total of -4 to thac0.
So the script improperly assigns bonuses from dual-wield proficiency and/or light weapon when single wielding.
And wielding a shorty in main and dagg in off (or vice versa) gives both hands a -2 bonus and +4 malus.
Wielding double daggers gives me both -4 bonus and +4 malus to cancel each other out for ++ in dual wield. Script seems kinda messy...
So I can have a single dagger with thac0 10 right now, single short with 12, or short sword + dagger with thac0 16/16 or double daggers with thac0 14/14.
I went by the readme and didn't instal any conflicting mods. Just some ease-of-use tweaks from cdtweaks, rogues rebalanced mod (but not the core which is said to conflict, mostly the bard enhancements).
The completely unconflicting mods are wizard slayer rebalance, archer rebalance, monastic orders, tomeandblood, msfm (magic styles or something), some extra items and portraits.
Scales of Balance were installed last over any previous mods anyway.
death 11
wand 13
poly 11
breath 13
spell 13
Without overhaul:
death 4
wand 8
poly 12
breath 15
spell 9
halfling fgt3/thf4 with 18 CON
with:
death 11
wand 13
poly 11
breath 11
spell 14
without:
death 8
wand 9
poly 12
breath 16
spell 10
So did dwarves/halflings/gnomes lose their CON bonus in the overhaul? Their ST are on par with non-shorty characters.
EDIT: probably unrelated since uninstalling SoB did nothing to it...maybe it's the 2.5 IWDEE beta bug... Saving throws from items don't show up on character sheet. Saving throws remain the same before and after equipping.
Because shorty-race pages list CON bonuses while readme is conveniently silent in that regard. Using the mod feels kinda like buying a cat in a bag to me at this point.
A little feedback :
Why not start intelligence saving throw bonus earlier ? Many npcs have 15-16 intel, maybe 15-17 +1 and 18-20 +2.
Archer is not allowed to progress past +++ in bows/crossbows. The + sign in level up screen is available but clicking on it does nothing, doesn't add the 4th point, neither spends the point.
Love Charisma overhaul as it stops being a dump stat and actually does something for bard and paladins. Dex giving melee thac0 at high levels is superb for melee fighter/thieves.
Not a fan of specialization from INT bonuses + I would lower required INT for spell save bonuses - 17+ for any noticable effect is too high.
Am a fan of WIS bonus to XP - multi-classed/dual-classed clerics level up meaningfully faster.
Am in to have CON ST bonuses (perhaps with a lower cap than in vanilla) for shorties back. (+3 at 18 CON or the like)
Of course, it's still OP for low level parties.
As for the shorty bonuses I can't say anything in defense of them, I just like them as it promoted a diverse party in vanilla game (My parties are basically fellowships of the ring in terms of races). If they are omitted completely (and I actually quite like your sugestion of giving them inherent +2 death for dwarves, +2 breath halfling, +2 spells gnomes since you are otherwise doing away with them, if at all).
I think, if it had been said in readme (with an explanation of "this is not really balanced") and in the race's description in char creation screen that the bonuses were in fact gone, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I consider serious modders people who know better than me.
Leaving this here, just in case you didn't note my above post:
"Archer is not allowed to progress past +++ in bows/crossbows. The + sign in level up screen is available but clicking on it does nothing, doesn't add the 4th point, neither spends the point." Or is it my game only?