plebiscite for Joinable NPCs (this doesn't compels the devs)

kamuizin

Well, based on the discussion we're having in the IWD:EE Joinable NPCs - A vital question, i'm making this pool to research the community opinion about Joinable NPCs in IWD:EE.

The intent of this pool is just for the vote (and explain the vote maybe), but it's not in my power to force anyone to post here or on the previous discussion.

The yes and DLC only answers should be added to form the positive opinion about Beamdog Joinable NPCs.
The No and Mod only answers should be added to form the negative opinion about Beamdog Joinable NPCs.

Vonbek777

Icewind Dale is not Baldur's Gate. You don't need npcs. I wouldn't mind encounters with computer controlled npcs in the form of DLC cameos and quest content, but that would be about it. IWD is about as perfect as you can get with a tactical party based rpg exercise. I suggest everyone take a specialist mage group once. For fun. Sixes mages all running away from ogres in a cave. The chaotic evil transmuter trying to outsmart the lawful evil necromancer while both trying to offer up the goody two shoes diviner up to the ogre on a silver platter. Memories. Not sure that party even made it to Kuldahar.

Kamigoroshi

I'd be only interested in joinable monster NPC's, really. A Yeti Shaman, for example, would be cool. Although an Remorhaz Frost Mage would be downright freezing as well. Hell, I'd even settle for a Rhinoceros Beetle Paladin here just to get the ball rolling.

Schneidend

I'll probably try any NPC mods that come out, as I did with the IWD2 NPC mod, but I want Overhaul to focus on improving the spirit of the original IWD experience, building a custom party to fight big, tough battles.

EnialusMeliamne

I would totally incorporate a few core NPC's in my party, but realizing that not all feel the same way, I'd be comfortable downloading a separate packet for the privilege.

SapphireIce101

No to Core NPCs, but I definitely expect NPC mods as soon as @kulyok‌'s IWD NPC Project is updated for the IWD:EE. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if it served as a tutorial for people wanting to make their own IWD NPCs.

Finellach

Plain and simple no.

Adding joinable NPCs would make a mockery out of the EE project. IWD is IWD not BG or PST.

Blackraven

I can't see why one would vote against NPCs as downloadable content. Now if there were technical or budgetary reasons not to add NPCs as DLC I could totally understand that, but otherwise it just feels a bit egoistic to me, like saying "I don't need Beamdog NPCs, so other people shouldn't have any access to them either." Really, I'd say that if you dont care for DLC NPCs don't download them.

Vonbek777

Blackraven said:

I can't see why one would vote against NPCs as downloadable content. Now if there were technical or budgetary reasons not to add NPCs as DLC I could totally understand that, but otherwise it just feels a bit egoistic to me, like saying "I don't need Beamdog NPCs, so other people shouldn't have any access to them either." Really, I'd say that if you dont care for DLC NPCs don't download them.

Heck why stop there, just label me with narcissistic personality disorder!

Schneidend

Blackraven said:

I can't see why one would vote against NPCs as downloadable content. Now if there were technical or budgetary reasons not to add NPCs as DLC I could totally understand that, but otherwise it just feels a bit egoistic to me, like saying "I don't need Beamdog NPCs, so other people shouldn't have any access to them either." Really, I'd say that if you dont care for DLC NPCs don't download them.

Somebody has to write, code, and voice those NPCs. It's extra effort I'd rather Overhaul not bother undertaking, especially considering the sheer number of NPCs IWDEE would need to have a full roster.

Blackraven

@Schneidend, I hear you. Those would be the technical/budegtary reasons I mentioned. I have no insight in them but like I said I'd understand it if limited resources were an issue.

Schneidend

I wouldn't say it's a limited resources issue so much as just resource allocation. Even given unlimited resources, it's not something I want Overhaul to concern themselves with. It is, and should remain, purely within the domain of modding to add NPCs to the IWD games.

SharGuidesMyHand

Finellach said:

IWD is IWD not BG or PST.

This.

Asking for IWD to be turned into a joinable NPC game would be like asking for PST to be turned into a hack-n-slash game IMO.

Each game has a different approach that suits different people's tastes. Beamdog shouldn't be taking it upon themselves to decide that any one approach is "better" than another and insert it into other games - and I say this as someone who generally prefers BG over IWD. If there is a faction of people who want to see the fundamental spirit of a game be changed, then let them mod it.

Elrandir

While NPCs are cool, I don't really want Beamdog to focus on this at all. If they made one or two neutral (aligned) NPCs I wouldn't say no, but I don't want them to concern themselves with this. I fully expect the modding community to create brilliant displays of their prowess, however, and while I don't plan on using many of these mods, others will want to.

meagloth

Disclaimer: I have never played IWD.

But that aside, I don't think it's an intelligent use of resources. Add enough NPC's at a high enough quality to make it worthwhile would require to much time and effort. Beamdog already has adventure Y and Z lined up, and reading in between the lines when Mr. Foley talks I think that's where the bulk of the creative talent is going.
I would rather they focus on just fixing and porting, instead of the complications and new bugs that come with the kind of new content they put into bg2(bg2 needed it though. Pure class thief and full evil party).

jackjack

No no no.

kamuizin

Schneidend said:

I wouldn't say it's a limited resources issue so much as just resource allocation. Even given unlimited resources, it's not something I want Overhaul to concern themselves with. It is, and should remain, purely within the domain of modding to add NPCs to the IWD games.

While to a degree this argument is highly valid, i'm seeing the "time of the devs" justify becoming a huge snow ball of excuse lately. It's not a criticize to you @Schneidend, cos that argument became alive a long time ago, even before the release of the BG/BG2:EE versions.

While i don't agree with the argument, that sound as if the devs are made of crystal and any excess of work would exaust them, i can easly understand people feeling joinable NPCs as incompatible, and i also see this being an act of violation to nostalgia for some people. I voted pure yes because that's my opinion, my vote is more for argument than impose an individual will.

However, for the point of DLC only NPCs i'm a bit curious to people resisting the idea.

DLCs by nature will come after the game or at very least at the same time. The project of IWD:EE is already set in motion, so the devs already have the script of work they have to follow. DLCs are profitable, and selling an DLC for $10 buckets for example is 1/2 the price of a single full game sale.

Trent already gave his opinion on this matter, so the debate is more theorical than pratical here until the game is released, but while i want the devs commited the fastest possible in the making of an Planescape: Torment EE, i hope they find a bit of time after the release of IWD:EE to release a bunch of Joinable NPCs DLCs.

booinyoureyes

hehehehe "plebiscite"

The congress is now in session! Representative Boo votes no NPCs, but instead work on new adventures, baller quests and bug fixes.

However, mods are always nice and I will try some of them. If Beamdog did make NPCs I would try them out for sure, but I don't think it is necessary in any way and I think there are better uses of their limited time and resources

Schneidend

kamuizin said:

Schneidend said:

I wouldn't say it's a limited resources issue so much as just resource allocation. Even given unlimited resources, it's not something I want Overhaul to concern themselves with. It is, and should remain, purely within the domain of modding to add NPCs to the IWD games.

While to a degree this argument is highly valid, i'm seeing the "time of the devs" justify becoming a huge snow ball of excuse lately. It's not a criticize to you @Schneidend, cos that argument became alive a long time ago, even before the release of the BG/BG2:EE versions.

While i don't agree with the argument, that sound as if the devs are made of crystal and any excess of work would exaust them, i can easly understand people feeling joinable NPCs as incompatible, and i also see this being an act of violation to nostalgia for some people. I voted pure yes because that's my opinion, my vote is more for argument than impose an individual will.

However, for the point of DLC only NPCs i'm a bit curious to people resisting the idea.

DLCs by nature will come after the game or at very least at the same time. The project of IWD:EE is already set in motion, so the devs already have the script of work they have to follow. DLCs are profitable, and selling an DLC for $10 buckets for example is 1/2 the price of a single full game sale.

Trent already gave his opinion on this matter, so the debate is more theorical than pratical here until the game is released, but while i want the devs commited the fastest possible in the making of an Planescape: Torment EE, i hope they find a bit of time after the release of IWD:EE to release a bunch of Joinable NPCs DLCs.

Like I said, it's not a matter of limited time, divided resources, or anything like that. I don't think it's impossible or would hinder other things for the devs to spend time to do Game Feature B. Believe me, as a Mass Effect, Borderlands, and Dragon Age fan, I constantly have to battle against the flawed "this will divide muh dev resources" argument. The difference is, Overhaul is a hell of a lot smaller than Bioware or GearBox, so their resources actually are limited. But, even given infinite resources, I simply never want to see any DLC in the form of party NPCs in IWDEE, ever. It's not in keeping with the spirit of the original game, and is something that the modding community can, and should, step up to the plate to do on their own initiative. If you want it so badly, either learn to mod yourself, or motivate others to do it for you. I'd probably try those NPCs on my second or third run, too.

Thels

Schneidend said:

But, even given infinite resources, I simply never want to see any DLC in the form of party NPCs in IWDEE, ever.

I don't like cake, so nobody in the world should be allowed to eat cake...

I'd love to see an NPC DLC, though I don't consider it very likely. But I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to be against the existence of such a DLC.

Say you like Realtime Strategy Games more than Turnbased Strategy Games, would you ban all Turnbased Strategy Games from existing because according to you Realtime Strategy Games are better?

People have different likes and dislikes. Saying the game should more be like X than Y, because more people like X than Y I understand completely. Saying Z should not exist because you don't like Z so others shouldn't like Z either, is about the most selfish thing I ever herd.

Schneidend

Thels said:

I don't like cake, so nobody in the world should be allowed to eat cake...

I'd love to see an NPC DLC, though I don't consider it very likely. But I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to be against the existence of such a DLC.

Say you like Realtime Strategy Games more than Turnbased Strategy Games, would you ban all Turnbased Strategy Games from existing because according to you Realtime Strategy Games are better?

People have different likes and dislikes. Saying the game should more be like X than Y, because more people like X than Y I understand completely. Saying Z should not exist because you don't like Z so others shouldn't like Z either, is about the most selfish thing I ever herd.

If Overhaul were to make DLC content, I'd rather it be more items, or a new quest. I don't really see how that's selfish. My holding that opinion doesn't harm you in anyway. It's not as if Overhaul takes orders from me.

But, like @booinyoureyes‌, if they add quests that are not baller, I won't be happy.

Thels

Schneidend said:

If Overhaul were to make DLC content, I'd rather it be more items, or a new quest.

That I can understand. "I'd rather have the devs work on X than on Y, because I like X more." I can totally agree with that.

Your previous post however described a situation with infinite resources, where getting Y or not would have no effect whatsoever on getting X or not.

Schneidend

Thels said:

That I can understand. "I'd rather have the devs work on X than on Y, because I like X more." I can totally agree with that.

Your previous post however described a situation with infinite resources, where getting Y or not would have no effect whatsoever on getting X or not.

I'd still rather not see NPC DLC, either way. Overhaul's job is to enhance the game, not go against the spirit of the original design team. In the same way that you would rather not see BG/BG2/IWD's stat rolling be replaced by point-buy even though you like point-buy, which I agree with, I don't want Overhaul to add NPCs by that same token.

Thels

Schneidend said:

I'd still rather not see NPC DLC, either way. Overhaul's job is to enhance the game, not go against the spirit of the original design team. In the same way that you would rather not see BG/BG2/IWD's stat rolling be replaced by point-buy even though you like point-buy, which I agree with, I don't want Overhaul to add NPCs by that same token.

I personally wouldn't mind point buy, but it's not everyone's cake, so it shouldn't just replace the stat system in the game. If there was like a free patch replacing it with point buy, or an option in the settings, then yes, I'd enable it.

A DLC is a totally different case, as people that like NPCs could buy it, and those that don't could ignore it. It would require quite a bit of work, though, which might be better spent elsewhere, but the same applies to a point buy patch.

(Also, since point buy WAS added in IWD2, I don't consider it really against the spirit of the game. Finally, 2nd edition doesn't lend itself to point buy very well, due to the nonlinear bonuses.)

Thunder

I'd rather see them make other content.

CheOffshore

I would like to see joinable NPCs, not necessarily fleshed out, romancable or with unique quests, just maybe a pool of 10 or 12 dotted around the early sections of the game between Easthaven and Kuldahar with a pre generated background and a couple of lines of initial dialogue... mercenaries, local fighters or someone youve saved from a goblin who just want to help out... possibly a handful of high level ones later on ("thanks for letting me out of prison, let me come along, im a wizard" etc) to offer a swap... I don't think this would go against the spirit of the game, more help out people who don't have the imagination or patience to set up 6 characters at the start

recklessheart

Blackraven said:

I can't see why one would vote against NPCs as downloadable content. Now if there were technical or budgetary reasons not to add NPCs as DLC I could totally understand that, but otherwise it just feels a bit egoistic to me, like saying "I don't need Beamdog NPCs, so other people shouldn't have any access to them either." Really, I'd say that if you dont care for DLC NPCs don't download them.

While respecting and understanding what you're saying, fan created mods for NPCs will hopefully be available. I don't necessarily agree that what you are suggesting is the mentality of those of us that vote 'no'. Merely, it would be tasking and not necessarily beneficial to see Beamdog/Overhaul stretching out their resources to create NPCs that only part of the community will download, when they could expand their activity to creating new opportunities and gaming prospects that appease a larger market.

GoodSteve

I've personally never played IWD, I did play through IWD2 however and one of my biggest gripes about that game is that you had a party full of silent characters. I'm a big fan of BG and BG2, As well as Dragon Age Origins because of the party interaction (I use the NPC Project mod for BG1.) It makes the games more immersive and fun for me to play, so I wouldn't be against there being new social NPC's added to the game.

Now, I've never played the first game so I'm not really sure to what degree people consider the experience ruined or changed too much from adding recruitable NPC's but as an outsider looking in, that argument doesn't really make that much sense to me. IWD is a roleplaying game, while it might have more focus on tactics and strategy than some, at its core it is a roleplaying game, no? Why would anyone be against the addition of something that makes the game, typically, feel more immersive and alive in a role playing game? I'm genuinely asking because, like I said, I've never played IWD. I can't really seem to wrap my head around the NPC's ruining the concept of the game... Would it require less strategy or tactics if you didn't create all of your party members? Will you not play multiplayer because of this?

BelegCuthalion

i voted for beamdog NPCs, not because i urgently *want* them, but if they are included, they are a guarantee that mod NPCs actually *can* be added flawlessly (BG:EE-engine will do lots of the work of course, eliminating some compromises that had to be made in the IWD-NPC-mod-project so far).
In very general, i just prefer NPCs with scripted personality over those who just walk with you ... IWD original characters were so colorless to me i never even remembered the names i gave them, while in comparison i can call every single name of every official or inofficial npc i ever played in BG series.

For all who don't want NPCs, nothing will change with their inclusion, they'll definitely be optional and can be ignored.

Grammarsalad

I have no problem at all with joinable NPC's as long as no new content (eg new areas) is tied to them.

SapphireIce101

Actually, if @kulyok can get her IWD NPC Project mod compatible with IWD:EE, then that's the guarantee that mod npcs can be added. For instance, just because Pillars of Eternity has NPCs, doesn't necessarily guarantee that modded ones can be added in there flawlessly. It just means that Obsidian made NPCs, and since there is an option in PoE to basically make your own party, it's a kind of valid point.

Another problem is the lack of spots for character development. I mean, if I were to make a pie chart of where your party is going to spend most of its time at, dungeons would probably have most of the pie. Followed by hub cities, talking to quest givers, talking to the innkeeper, and the shopkeeper combined. I admire @kulyok for making her own character development spots. Even if they weren't the ideal place.