I'm sure this is bound to be an unpopular opinion, but I don't even want the spells from BGII:EE brought over. I feel they'll completely change how the game plays. JNPCs even less so. IWD was all about the player created party. Hell, I'm not even sure how I feel about the class kits
Someone else made the comment, which I agree with: At what point does this become no longer Icewind Dale?
But, I understand there probably aren't many who will agree with me.
what's the point of the enhanced edition if there aren't going to be any changes? why not just play the original release?
I'm sure this is bound to be an unpopular opinion, but I don't even want the spells from BGII:EE brought over. I feel they'll completely change how the game plays. JNPCs even less so. IWD was all about the player created party. Hell, I'm not even sure how I feel about the class kits
Someone else made the comment, which I agree with: At what point does this become no longer Icewind Dale?
But, I understand there probably aren't many who will agree with me.
what's the point of the enhanced edition if there aren't going to be any changes? why not just play the original release?
I'm sure this is bound to be an unpopular opinion, but I don't even want the spells from BGII:EE brought over. I feel they'll completely change how the game plays. JNPCs even less so. IWD was all about the player created party. Hell, I'm not even sure how I feel about the class kits
Someone else made the comment, which I agree with: At what point does this become no longer Icewind Dale?
But, I understand there probably aren't many who will agree with me.
what's the point of the enhanced edition if there aren't going to be any changes? why not just play the original release?
Yes, they should get rid of all this "Kuldahar" nonsense, no one is interested in that. What people really want is a story about the Chosen One and his/her band of sidekicks and lovers.
who ever mentioned *getting rid* of anything? also, who mentioned romances?
also be so kind as to note that the post i was quoting was in essence against *almost all* *already confirmed* features of IWD:EE (people have a right to extreme opinions of course and other people have a right to give scrutiny)
such preposterous imputations, i'm almost inclined to suggest that an apology might be in place.
who ever mentioned *getting rid* of anything? also, who mentioned romances?
also be so kind as to note that the post i was quoting was in essence against *almost all* *already confirmed* features of IWD:EE (people have a right to extreme opinions of course and other people have a right to give scrutiny)
such preposterous imputations, i'm almost inclined to suggest that an apology might be in place.
If you think it's a strawman, then you haven't understood the plot of IWD.
who ever mentioned *getting rid* of anything? also, who mentioned romances?
also be so kind as to note that the post i was quoting was in essence against *almost all* *already confirmed* features of IWD:EE (people have a right to extreme opinions of course and other people have a right to give scrutiny)
such preposterous imputations, i'm almost inclined to suggest that an apology might be in place.
It's not -that- extreme. No spells and on the fence about kits. That's only 50%!
But to answer your first question, I mean, it's all subjective, but all I look for in the enhanced editions are bug fixes and the ability to play it at higher resolutions. Kits could be very interesting, and to be fair, I was pretty happy with the extra kits added in BG:EE and BGII:EE.
I'll probably come around. Let me be grumpy for now!
who ever mentioned *getting rid* of anything? also, who mentioned romances?
also be so kind as to note that the post i was quoting was in essence against *almost all* *already confirmed* features of IWD:EE (people have a right to extreme opinions of course and other people have a right to give scrutiny)
such preposterous imputations, i'm almost inclined to suggest that an apology might be in place.
Don't get pissed off with this kind of short mind dude, haters gonna hate, always.
Heck, I argued all I could for the inclusion of Ascension in BG2:EE because I thought that fitted the original design (being designed, you know, by one of BG2's designers), and even that was considered too much.
This is why we can't have nice things. Ascension makes Throne of Bhaal 20x more interesting. I would have been ecstatic if the story elements (not the harder battles) were added to the EEs because the mod doesn't seem to work yet.
Actually, my main complaint about the EEs (other than ALL the new material being linked to the new NPCs) is that it was supposed to be easier to modify, yet none of the best mods (Ascension and the BG1 NPC Project for example) STILL, after all this time, do not work. Super aggravating, and the reason I have yet to finish BG2:EE as I sit here waiting for Ascension to be compatible.
Hmmm @booinyoureyes BG1NPC is working you know, it maybe beta but it working.
Yeah, but it has been almost two years now and we have... a beta!
This is not the devs fault, but I will say that when they said that the EEs will have an easier time with mods I was very excited. It was probably the main reason I bought the games.
@booinyoureyes It in beta because it need to be test with tutu and the vanilla game as well not just with EE and also the EE still not in his final they add and change stuff so the NPC need changes as well.
Imagine a mod for BG1 where you where you where not Bhaalspawn from Candlekeep. Instead you where a random stranger from wherever you wanted, who arrived at the Friendly Arm Inn in search of adventure. You wouldn't need to change much of the content, but your perception of the storyline would be completly different. Baldur's Gate is about CHARNAME. The location is fairly incidental.
Adding BG style NPCs would have a similar affect on IWD. It is about Kuldahar, not about CHARNAME. Changing the focus would completly change the story. It's fine to change the story in a mod, but not in an enhanced edition purpoting to be the same game. And I would impore anyone who cares about stories not to use such a mod until they have played the game normally all the way through to experience the story the original writers intended.
what you imply is that there'd be a protagonist, but there really wouldn't. your character/s wouldn't have any meaningful development and story arc themselves.
all plot elements would remain identical.
for example, the introduction mentions a party. it might as well be that you (one or more created characters) are part of a larger group of previously unassociated adventurers that arrived in easthaven. hrothgar would give out the orders and you would draft a team (out of jNPCs) you find the most suitable at the moment - i don't see any story being changed there.
If your jNPCs didn't have any meaningful development and story arc, what would be the point? Why can't your "part of a larger group of previously unassociated adventurers" be the party you start with?
Story wise, adding jNPCs would not be particularly hard. For example, Hrothgar could have quite a few jNPCs staying his home that he asks you to take a few of them with you when searching for the caravan.
Then, you could have a few more jNPCs in Kuldahar (for example Orrick's apprentice) or, since they have done unconventional NPCs before, even an elven ghost from the Severed Hand (even an Archer - kit Kayleesa would "fit" if you could convince her to assist you in avenging her people... maybe you could even resurrect her eventually).
The story would still NOT be focused on the main character but that does not mean that your party cannot feel "alive" or that an inter-party romance cannot occur.
The real question is if such a thing would be worth the development time.
Sorry, but you really don't understand about stories, do you? It's not a matter of shoe-horning in additional characters. Of couse you could, it would be simple. But that is not what the story is ABOUT. If you start adding characters that are in an any way detailed, They become the FOCUS of the story. If you change the focus of the story, it becomes a whole different story. The themes also change. Even if Kuldahar was still there, it would fade into the background to your interparty soap opera.
Sorry, but you really don't understand about stories, do you? It's not a matter of shoe-horning in additional characters. Of couse you could, it would be simple. But that is not what the story is ABOUT. If you start adding characters that are in an any way detailed, They become the FOCUS of the story. If you change the focus of the story, it becomes a whole different story. The themes also change. Even if Kuldahar was still there, it would fade into the background to your interparty soap opera.
So if we develop alive character they quickly overcome the saga of IWD itself? This statement says that IWD saga is a shit then, as any well developed character will take the focus of the game story (what i know it's not truth).
No one is asking for a protagonist here, we just want NPCs that speak among each other, a bit of life in the party would be very appreciated. They don't even need to speak with the maked characters (while i hope they do).
Imagine a mod for BG1 where you where you where not Bhaalspawn from Candlekeep. Instead you where a random stranger from wherever you wanted, who arrived at the Friendly Arm Inn in search of adventure.
Interestingly though, I would gladly play this mod
Imagine a mod for BG1 where you where you where not Bhaalspawn from Candlekeep. Instead you where a random stranger from wherever you wanted, who arrived at the Friendly Arm Inn in search of adventure.
Interestingly though, I would gladly play this mod
Sure, so would I. It would be interesting to see the story from a different point of view. You could even add Abdel as a jNPC.
I've nothing against mods that change the story. It's just the claim that jNPCs would be expected as an "enhancement" that I am objecting to, and the assumption that they weren't in the original release because the product was rushed, not as a fundamental design decision.
If your jNPCs didn't have any meaningful development and story arc, what would be the point? Why can't your "part of a larger group of previously unassociated adventurers" be the party you start with?
i also haven't been super clear previously... i meant that *your created PCs* would not have anything to them storywise (so your fear that a protagonst would become dramatically prominent and take focus away from the story is baseless) but some of the jNPCs should have some development.
the ability to have the characters say something once in a while would mean a world to me when it comes to immersion. it's got nothing to do with any kind of story.
Sorry, but you really don't understand about stories, do you? It's not a matter of shoe-horning in additional characters. Of couse you could, it would be simple. But that is not what the story is ABOUT. If you start adding characters that are in an any way detailed, They become the FOCUS of the story. If you change the focus of the story, it becomes a whole different story. The themes also change. Even if Kuldahar was still there, it would fade into the background to your interparty soap opera.
you are fearmongering and really stretching it. i truly don't understand where you're coming from. character side plots and banters in BG1 and 2 don't change the main plot and "make it a whole different story" (???) they don't take the focus away from the main story either. there, if you don't like your followers talking you can even, almost always, just shut them up ("#3 yada yada i don't want to listen to what you have to say")
icewind dale also has side quests you know. should they be erased because they dillute the main quest action?
if you are so right and this idea is so stupid, why did prominent modders make mods to include some jNPCs?
It doesn't take much to make a jNPC the centre of attention. Consider Minsc in BG1. The thing is, the NPCs are with you all the time, so they have plenty of opportunity to make an impression. If you don't understand why having a character like Minsc along in IWD would have enormously changed the impression of the story, then I can only assume you didn't follow the story anyway.
I have no objection to modders adding jNPCs, since it is fine for a mod to change the story as much as they like. But Beamdog are making an Enhanced edition, not an altered edition. Adding jNPCs is not enhancement, it is alteration.
You could add NPCs to TotLM, since that dorsn't really have much plot, but when a plot is as finely crafted as IWD, it's akin to bowlderising Shakespeare or adding Legolas and Tauriel to The Hobbit.
@Fardragon Not to hit this thread with one of my infamous "derailments," but humanizing Tolkien's dry-as-hell prose with familiar characters he can develop and new characters to get involved in love triangles is adaptation. A film should never strive to be a complete recreation, as it will invariably be a bad film. Besides, it just makes sense for Legolas to be among those elves. That's his people and his father in the book. Why would he not be there just because Tolkien hadn't invented him yet?
@Fardragon Not to hit this thread with one of my infamous "derailments," but humanizing Tolkien's dry-as-hell prose with familiar characters he can develop and new characters to get involved in love triangles is adaptation. A film should never strive to be a complete recreation, as it will invariably be a bad film. Besides, it just makes sense for Legolas to be among those elves. That's his people and his father in the book. Why would he not be there just because Tolkien hadn't invented him yet?
The point is, the focus is changed completly. Tolkien is very careful not to include anything in his novel that Bilbo didn't experience directly or learn about later. Legolas may well have been there, but he isn't mentioned in the book because Bilbo wasn't introduced to him. This leads to a story which is very focused on Bilbo. That's why it was so difficult to film in the first place. But adding an elf-dwarf love triangle with scenes Bilbo would never know about it makes it a very different story. Better or worse is a matter of opinion, but it is a very different story to the one envisioned by the original author.
why would developers making this addition be in issue for you even tho you'd still be able to create a 6-member party?
also, don't you find it incredibly strange that on the whole journey no good soul or brave northern warrior is willing to join you? people might want to accompany you and you'd tell them "nah we're rounded out just fine, see you around". other players might say "ok come along" what's the problem with this situation?
why would developers making this addition be in issue for you even tho you'd still be able to create a 6-member party?
also, don't you find it incredibly strange that on the whole journey no good soul or brave northern warrior is willing to join you? people might want to accompany you and you'd tell them "nah we're rounded out just fine, see you around". other players might say "ok come along" what's the problem with this situation?
I dislike the feeling of having to turn down recruitable hopefuls. Leaving Imoen to her own devices in Spellhold sucks, even when I'm RPing Evil. So, if there's no NPCs, I never need turn them down.
And, again, modders can do this, so there's not much need for Overhaul to do it. Hell, if you listen to half the douche bags on this site, Overhaul can't even write a decent NPC, so apparently having modders do it would be preferable.
why would developers making this addition be in issue for you even tho you'd still be able to create a 6-member party?
also, don't you find it incredibly strange that on the whole journey no good soul or brave northern warrior is willing to join you? people might want to accompany you and you'd tell them "nah we're rounded out just fine, see you around". other players might say "ok come along" what's the problem with this situation?
It's not an "addition" it's an alteration.
If there was anyone in Kuldahar capable of saving Kuldahar, then the PCs wouldn't be needed. That's a key plot point.
Adventurers are rare. That's a feature of the setting. The figure was 1 in 10000. In a village of less than 100 souls there aren't going to be many!
Comments
--- what's the point of the enhanced edition if there aren't going to be any changes? why not just play the original release?
who ever mentioned *getting rid* of anything? also, who mentioned romances?
also be so kind as to note that the post i was quoting was in essence against *almost all* *already confirmed* features of IWD:EE (people have a right to extreme opinions of course and other people have a right to give scrutiny)
such preposterous imputations, i'm almost inclined to suggest that an apology might be in place.
But to answer your first question, I mean, it's all subjective, but all I look for in the enhanced editions are bug fixes and the ability to play it at higher resolutions. Kits could be very interesting, and to be fair, I was pretty happy with the extra kits added in BG:EE and BGII:EE.
I'll probably come around. Let me be grumpy for now!
Actually, my main complaint about the EEs (other than ALL the new material being linked to the new NPCs) is that it was supposed to be easier to modify, yet none of the best mods (Ascension and the BG1 NPC Project for example) STILL, after all this time, do not work. Super aggravating, and the reason I have yet to finish BG2:EE as I sit here waiting for Ascension to be compatible.
This is not the devs fault, but I will say that when they said that the EEs will have an easier time with mods I was very excited. It was probably the main reason I bought the games.
Adding BG style NPCs would have a similar affect on IWD. It is about Kuldahar, not about CHARNAME. Changing the focus would completly change the story. It's fine to change the story in a mod, but not in an enhanced edition purpoting to be the same game. And I would impore anyone who cares about stories not to use such a mod until they have played the game normally all the way through to experience the story the original writers intended.
all plot elements would remain identical.
for example, the introduction mentions a party. it might as well be that you (one or more created characters) are part of a larger group of previously unassociated adventurers that arrived in easthaven. hrothgar would give out the orders and you would draft a team (out of jNPCs) you find the most suitable at the moment - i don't see any story being changed there.
Then, you could have a few more jNPCs in Kuldahar (for example Orrick's apprentice) or, since they have done unconventional NPCs before, even an elven ghost from the Severed Hand (even an Archer - kit Kayleesa would "fit" if you could convince her to assist you in avenging her people... maybe you could even resurrect her eventually).
The story would still NOT be focused on the main character but that does not mean that your party cannot feel "alive" or that an inter-party romance cannot occur.
The real question is if such a thing would be worth the development time.
No one is asking for a protagonist here, we just want NPCs that speak among each other, a bit of life in the party would be very appreciated. They don't even need to speak with the maked characters (while i hope they do).
I've nothing against mods that change the story. It's just the claim that jNPCs would be expected as an "enhancement" that I am objecting to, and the assumption that they weren't in the original release because the product was rushed, not as a fundamental design decision.
i also haven't been super clear previously... i meant that *your created PCs* would not have anything to them storywise (so your fear that a protagonst would become dramatically prominent and take focus away from the story is baseless)
but some of the jNPCs should have some development.
the ability to have the characters say something once in a while would mean a world to me when it comes to immersion. it's got nothing to do with any kind of story. you are fearmongering and really stretching it. i truly don't understand where you're coming from.
character side plots and banters in BG1 and 2 don't change the main plot and "make it a whole different story" (???)
they don't take the focus away from the main story either. there, if you don't like your followers talking you can even, almost always, just shut them up ("#3 yada yada i don't want to listen to what you have to say")
icewind dale also has side quests you know. should they be erased because they dillute the main quest action?
if you are so right and this idea is so stupid, why did prominent modders make mods to include some jNPCs?
I have no objection to modders adding jNPCs, since it is fine for a mod to change the story as much as they like. But Beamdog are making an Enhanced edition, not an altered edition. Adding jNPCs is not enhancement, it is alteration.
You could add NPCs to TotLM, since that dorsn't really have much plot, but when a plot is as finely crafted as IWD, it's akin to bowlderising Shakespeare or adding Legolas and Tauriel to The Hobbit.
Not to hit this thread with one of my infamous "derailments," but humanizing Tolkien's dry-as-hell prose with familiar characters he can develop and new characters to get involved in love triangles is adaptation. A film should never strive to be a complete recreation, as it will invariably be a bad film. Besides, it just makes sense for Legolas to be among those elves. That's his people and his father in the book. Why would he not be there just because Tolkien hadn't invented him yet?
also, don't you find it incredibly strange that on the whole journey no good soul or brave northern warrior is willing to join you? people might want to accompany you and you'd tell them "nah we're rounded out just fine, see you around".
other players might say "ok come along"
what's the problem with this situation?
And, again, modders can do this, so there's not much need for Overhaul to do it. Hell, if you listen to half the douche bags on this site, Overhaul can't even write a decent NPC, so apparently having modders do it would be preferable.
If there was anyone in Kuldahar capable of saving Kuldahar, then the PCs wouldn't be needed. That's a key plot point.
Adventurers are rare. That's a feature of the setting. The figure was 1 in 10000. In a village of less than 100 souls there aren't going to be many!