you're quite right. that's why i've advocated that most of them should be mercenaries anyway. let's say... 60% mercenaries, 20% adventurers from the same group you came with to easthaven and 20% actual inhabitants of icewind dale. or something like that.
All we're asking for are BG 1 style NPCs. I've played with the IWD NPC project - I hated it! I lasted only as far as Kuldahar before I got rid of them in favour of my self made mutes. It is possible to have too much party interference, which does destroy the experience - that's the main reason I would prefer to pay Beamdog to do the work and produce DLC rather than leave it to modders, in my experience mods and propriety are a rare mix. (That's my opinion - I realise the NPC project has fans, it's just not to my taste - I like the look of the other NPC mod's more minimalist approach and I'll try it when it's compatible).
The way the mod added the NPCs though, I'm fine with - incorporate them into party generation. Or, I don't believe it alters anything to have a dozen NPCs in Easthaven who answered the call for help. I don't think there need to be more than 12-15 NPCs added, say 10-12 in Easthaven and a few more area specific NPCs spread out.
People seem to object just to object. Realistically, if joinable NPCs are added they will be added as DLC - if you don't want it, it need never be in your game. Or is the objection that some of us might get something that you don't want and so, you don't want us to get it...
People seem to object just to object. Realistically, if joinable NPCs are added they will be added as DLC - if you don't want it, it need never be in your game. Or is the objection that some of us might get something that you don't want and so, you don't want us to get it...
Or, instead of assuming that our position is unreasonable or childish, understand that effort expended on NPC DLC is effort not expended on other kinds of DLC, which is something I do not want. If they make DLC, it should be more like HoW or TotLM, adding more areas, encounters, and items. Not jNPCs.
Mods are better than DLC for this type of thing. In a mod there is licence to change things, from the focus of the plot to the survival of NPCs which originally died.
minimalist jNPCs are alive whereas created characters are dead minimalist jNPCs add flavor to a fairly barren world of IWD minimalist jNPCs can have special qualities, quirks and items while created characters are conforming-to-the-rules-boring-killing-machines minimalist jNPCs force you think strategically in the broader game during the coarse of the actual game (not just during party creation) - who to pick?, when to dualclass?, should you switch characters?, how to deal with opposing alignments? etc. minimalist jNPCs make for a super fun and tense first couple of playthroughs (remember playing BG1 for the first time and not being able to decide who to pick?) minimalist jNPCs that are mercenaries force you to factor in both gold and time as real and important resources (mercenaries have higher starting level; if they are the same alignment as you and you have high charisma, they join you permanently - this also enables charisma to become more prominent) minimalist jNPCs that are originally your enemies make it possible to resolve certain encounters in a diplomatic and RP-ing way in a game that's otherwise mostly a d&d combat simulator with nice backdrop scenery
need more? (i could list things 'till the sun dawns)
It sounds to me like you don't have enough imagination to create your own characters. You want the equivelent of "Story Mode" for people with a creativity bypass.
Here is a tip. You know that box labeled "biography"? Use it. You will soon find your characters stop being "dead".
Yeah, I don't see the argument of created NPCs being "dead" as a terribly good one. That just means you're either incapable of creating backstories or you're just lazy. I could make (at least) three full modded parties of JNPCs just from the parties of six I've already made in preparation of multiple play-throughs of this game. And while I enjoy writing, I don't think it's really that hard to come up with your own characters in general, which leads me to believe that you're just too lazy to do it.
If your problem is choosing the more random aspect of things, (such as class/stats/race/etc) then just use one of the two dozen methods of making more realistic and random characters. Attach a short biography to them, and bam. Alive. Even easier if all you're looking for is BG1 style NPCs, since they practically have no interaction whatsoever.
For me personally, I can see if there were NPCs around that could be hired on "In addition to your player created party" (like you saw in ToEE) for a short term or a long one as not being a problem or intrusion into the game, provided that there was a valid story and reason why they are there and joinable. They become hooks that allow for plot lines/quests to be a tiny bit more personable.
Equally, for those who don't enjoy the character creation process and want someone else to create the characters (it's a valid perspective, there's LOADS of other aspects of the game to enjoy) it seems like a valid design choice. Even from the perspective that NPCs have fixed (and sometimes unique) stats and abilities, there is a sort of logic for having them in the game even if they don't have "Personalities" and custom scripts etc...
If I were in charge of the project, having to decide what aspects got worked on and what didn't, I'd have a whole laundry list of things that would go above NPCs. But I don't have anything against them being in the game.
@bob_veng - despite what others have posted, I personally don't think it is laziness to not want to have to create and maintain 6 party members. The character creation system itself is so vast and complex that people can and have spent many MANY hours building 'the perfect character'. That's fun for some. Not for all.
I think there is a happy medium to be had here. Allow for a full party and throw in some extra NPCs around the camp fire (as it were) as extras. Who knows, it might end up as a challenge; "Play it hard core. If your PCs get chunked and you want to refill your ranks, you gotta choose from the NPCs available". Could be fun.
Not to change my previous stance that I don't think this is a HIGH priority, but I can definitely see it as very valid want for some folks.
I certainly didn't intend to flame anyone, so I hope spyder's statement wasn't aimed at me. I apologize if it came across as such. I still hold that created NPC's being "dead" is a silly argument, however.
Edit: After re-reading my post I see that my post WAS unnecessarily rude and inflammatory. I shouldn't have gotten so vindictive. My opinions are still the same, but I should have phrased them differently. I'm sorry.
Not everybody needs to be creative. People get by just fine without oodles of creativity. There's nothing lazy about it. Likewise, calling created NPCs dead is a bit of an exaggeration. They still have battle cries, after all. It's not like they're totally silent.
Even if you don't want to create your own characters, we know IWDEE will ship with pregenerated characters; and there are characters with biographies posted to the forums. You don't need to be a modder to share characters. IWD2EE shipped with around 6 pregenerated parties, with biographies for the group and each character. They just need adapting to the IWDEE rules. I can do it myself if anyone wants them.
It's fairly easy if you have the time to learn how to make your own minimalist NPCs. I made a couple with fairly complex kits and unique gear when I was 17, just from asking people on the G3 forums. I'm still proud of them. Give it a go when the EE comes out.
@Grimo88 Mind posting details about them on here? If you still have all the info, of course. I'd love to read about what you came up with.
It was for BG2. I made a half-orc ranger whose kit was a Monster Hunter (a ranger kit I made with some bonuses to damage, hold monster, some tracking abilities etc.) . He had a unique axe called the Taxidermist which had a chance to stun. He despised his orcish hertiage, and reconciled his beastly nature with his civilized one by hunting monsters in order to protect the communities that ultimately rejected him. He got along with NPCS like Keldorn, Mazzy and Valygar who valued structure and order, and despises Cernd for embracing his beastly nature. Naturally, he had a lot to say to CHARNAME after they become the slayer. He comes across the party outside Firkraag's lair, as he had been a victim of Firkraag's illusions, mistakenly slaying his only friends when he thought they were monsters.
I also made a Matzican NPC, a Jaguar Knight ranger kit. His jaguar knight kit allowed him to transform into a jaguar and use poison, spider and snake-themed mage spells, as he worshiped the Maztican god Zaltec. He was a slave brought from Helmport by the Roenalls and could be found on the docks. He had unique jaguar skin armor that he could not remove, and a unique club that had a chance to cripple, based on the Aztec maquahuitl weapon. I spend a heap of time on his class, and not so much on his dialogue or banter, so I didn't have much of a backstory for him.
Joinable NPCs would not be true to the original design or the original story, and the entire point of the Enhanced Edition is to be an upgrade to the original, not a mod.
Even if you don't want to create your own characters, we know IWDEE will ship with pregenerated characters; and there are characters with biographies posted to the forums. You don't need to be a modder to share characters. IWD2EE shipped with around 6 pregenerated parties, with biographies for the group and each character. They just need adapting to the IWDEE rules. I can do it myself if anyone wants them.
your point being? This, if anything, is even a stronger argument for joinable NPCs. If 'someone else's characters' already exist in the game, who cares if they are on the generation screen or in game? What's the difference?
You know, IWD:EE has a lot more in common with The Black Pits, than it does with Baldur's Gate.. I mean, both games have a pregenerated party, the plot is more about where the party is at, rather than the party itself, and neither IWD:EE or BP have JNPCs.
Thank you. I'd love to make an IWD NPC mod, but I don't have the chops. I feel like if you made just a handful of Planescape-depth NPCs, it would add a ton of story texture to IWD, and make a new playthrough feel completely fresh.
Even if you don't want to create your own characters, we know IWDEE will ship with pregenerated characters; and there are characters with biographies posted to the forums. You don't need to be a modder to share characters. IWD2EE shipped with around 6 pregenerated parties, with biographies for the group and each character. They just need adapting to the IWDEE rules. I can do it myself if anyone wants them.
your point being? This, if anything, is even a stronger argument for joinable NPCs. If 'someone else's characters' already exist in the game, who cares if they are on the generation screen or in game? What's the difference?
Thank you. I'd love to make an IWD NPC mod, but I don't have the chops. I feel like if you made just a handful of Planescape-depth NPCs, it would add a ton of story texture to IWD, and make a new playthrough feel completely fresh.
No, it wouldn't. Planescape level NPCs would tell a completly different story. You would be so busy engaging in the story arcs of the NPCs that you would completly miss the subtle, nuanced, and atmospheric story of IWD.
Not that that I have any objection to such a mod. It is just the idea that a mod of this type would "improve" the original story, rather than tell it's own story, that makes me cross.
I guess my ire is at least partially professional. As an English teacher I am constantly dealing with students missing the point of stories.
Thank you. I'd love to make an IWD NPC mod, but I don't have the chops. I feel like if you made just a handful of Planescape-depth NPCs, it would add a ton of story texture to IWD, and make a new playthrough feel completely fresh.
No, it wouldn't. Planescape level NPCs would tell a completly different story. You would be so busy engaging in the story arcs of the NPCs that you would completly miss the subtle, nuanced, and atmospheric story of IWD.
Not that that I have any objection to such a mod. It is just the idea that a mod of this type would "improve" the original story, rather than tell it's own story, that makes me cross.
I guess my ire is at least partially professional. As an English teacher I am constantly dealing with students missing the point of stories.
I'm an English teacher too! I feel your pain in some ways, but also acknowledge that readers find their own meaning in stories. For every person who reads Tolkien as a benign piece of escapism, there are at least 5 who see LOTR as a work of racism. But I digress.
I didn't say it would improve the narrative of IWD, just add texture. I totally agree that NPCs have the potential to derail the IWD plot. I feel that in many ways the Beamdog NPCs did this (Oh, you're the son of the Lord of Murder? The world is about to end? Look, that's great, but I am a wild mage and I have to protect my wild mage brethren so if we could go hack our way through some Red Wizards that'd be great. The terrifying legacy of your father can wait).
But, it would be folly to assume that even your created NPCs don't have some stake in doing what they're doing. I'd love to know why these adventurers keep doing what they're doing, and what they think about it. A survivor of the catastrophe at the Hand of the Seldarine, for instance, is going to have a lot they can add to the story in terms of emotional resonance. Having JNPCs with deep personalities would only serve to voice those motivations, and add to the narrative in a way silent, automaton NPCS cannot.
And, if we're being frank, I don't feel like the story of IWD is subtle or nuanced at all, and Black Isle devs have admitted as much. It's fairly straight forward sword and sorcery stuff; wonderfully enjoyable, but not exactly rich with meaning. I'm happy to be proved wrong though; there's every chance I've missed some important subtext.
@Grimo88 since the story of IWD is precisely the way you see it what do you think of my view that the game would benefit more from a larger number of plain combat-oriented NPCs than from a sprinkling of meticulously created NPCs lest their personal stories overbear upon the rather provisional main story? for example mercenaries, remaining hrothgar's retinue-men and other examples of 'simple motivations'...
@Grimo88 since the story of IWD is precisely the way you see it what do you think of my view that the game would benefit more from a larger number of plain combat-oriented NPCs than from a sprinkling of meticulously created NPCs lest their personal stories overbear upon the rather provisional main story? for example mercenaries, remaining hrothgar's retinue-men and other examples of 'simple motivations'...
I think a good mix of the mercenary and the ideological would be good. A paladin or a druid is going to see saving Kuldahar as a religious calling. A rogue or a merc would just see it as a way to get out of this damn mess and back home. I'd like to a see a good mix, otherwise, I don't feel like JNPCs would be needed at all.
Comments
or something like that.
The way the mod added the NPCs though, I'm fine with - incorporate them into party generation. Or, I don't believe it alters anything to have a dozen NPCs in Easthaven who answered the call for help. I don't think there need to be more than 12-15 NPCs added, say 10-12 in Easthaven and a few more area specific NPCs spread out.
People seem to object just to object. Realistically, if joinable NPCs are added they will be added as DLC - if you don't want it, it need never be in your game. Or is the objection that some of us might get something that you don't want and so, you don't want us to get it...
minimalist jNPCs add flavor to a fairly barren world of IWD
minimalist jNPCs can have special qualities, quirks and items while created characters are conforming-to-the-rules-boring-killing-machines
minimalist jNPCs force you think strategically in the broader game during the coarse of the actual game (not just during party creation) - who to pick?, when to dualclass?, should you switch characters?, how to deal with opposing alignments? etc.
minimalist jNPCs make for a super fun and tense first couple of playthroughs (remember playing BG1 for the first time and not being able to decide who to pick?)
minimalist jNPCs that are mercenaries force you to factor in both gold and time as real and important resources (mercenaries have higher starting level; if they are the same alignment as you and you have high charisma, they join you permanently - this also enables charisma to become more prominent)
minimalist jNPCs that are originally your enemies make it possible to resolve certain encounters in a diplomatic and RP-ing way in a game that's otherwise mostly a d&d combat simulator with nice backdrop scenery
need more? (i could list things 'till the sun dawns)
Here is a tip. You know that box labeled "biography"? Use it. You will soon find your characters stop being "dead".
i'll also meditate upon me not having enough imagination, maybe i'll enroll in an art craft class for kids.
If your problem is choosing the more random aspect of things, (such as class/stats/race/etc) then just use one of the two dozen methods of making more realistic and random characters. Attach a short biography to them, and bam. Alive. Even easier if all you're looking for is BG1 style NPCs, since they practically have no interaction whatsoever.
For me personally, I can see if there were NPCs around that could be hired on "In addition to your player created party" (like you saw in ToEE) for a short term or a long one as not being a problem or intrusion into the game, provided that there was a valid story and reason why they are there and joinable. They become hooks that allow for plot lines/quests to be a tiny bit more personable.
Equally, for those who don't enjoy the character creation process and want someone else to create the characters (it's a valid perspective, there's LOADS of other aspects of the game to enjoy) it seems like a valid design choice. Even from the perspective that NPCs have fixed (and sometimes unique) stats and abilities, there is a sort of logic for having them in the game even if they don't have "Personalities" and custom scripts etc...
If I were in charge of the project, having to decide what aspects got worked on and what didn't, I'd have a whole laundry list of things that would go above NPCs. But I don't have anything against them being in the game.
I think there is a happy medium to be had here. Allow for a full party and throw in some extra NPCs around the camp fire (as it were) as extras. Who knows, it might end up as a challenge; "Play it hard core. If your PCs get chunked and you want to refill your ranks, you gotta choose from the NPCs available". Could be fun.
Not to change my previous stance that I don't think this is a HIGH priority, but I can definitely see it as very valid want for some folks.
Edit: After re-reading my post I see that my post WAS unnecessarily rude and inflammatory. I shouldn't have gotten so vindictive. My opinions are still the same, but I should have phrased them differently. I'm sorry.
I also made a Matzican NPC, a Jaguar Knight ranger kit. His jaguar knight kit allowed him to transform into a jaguar and use poison, spider and snake-themed mage spells, as he worshiped the Maztican god Zaltec. He was a slave brought from Helmport by the Roenalls and could be found on the docks. He had unique jaguar skin armor that he could not remove, and a unique club that had a chance to cripple, based on the Aztec maquahuitl weapon. I spend a heap of time on his class, and not so much on his dialogue or banter, so I didn't have much of a backstory for him.
Not that that I have any objection to such a mod. It is just the idea that a mod of this type would "improve" the original story, rather than tell it's own story, that makes me cross.
I guess my ire is at least partially professional. As an English teacher I am constantly dealing with students missing the point of stories.
I didn't say it would improve the narrative of IWD, just add texture. I totally agree that NPCs have the potential to derail the IWD plot. I feel that in many ways the Beamdog NPCs did this (Oh, you're the son of the Lord of Murder? The world is about to end? Look, that's great, but I am a wild mage and I have to protect my wild mage brethren so if we could go hack our way through some Red Wizards that'd be great. The terrifying legacy of your father can wait).
But, it would be folly to assume that even your created NPCs don't have some stake in doing what they're doing. I'd love to know why these adventurers keep doing what they're doing, and what they think about it. A survivor of the catastrophe at the Hand of the Seldarine, for instance, is going to have a lot they can add to the story in terms of emotional resonance. Having JNPCs with deep personalities would only serve to voice those motivations, and add to the narrative in a way silent, automaton NPCS cannot.
since the story of IWD is precisely the way you see it what do you think of my view that the game would benefit more from a larger number of plain combat-oriented NPCs than from a sprinkling of meticulously created NPCs lest their personal stories overbear upon the rather provisional main story?
for example mercenaries, remaining hrothgar's retinue-men and other examples of 'simple motivations'...