I think NPCs showing up later could be very interesting, but it definitely could screw up the strategy focused gameplay by altering your carefully laid out team.
I think NPCs showing up later could be very interesting, but it definitely could screw up the strategy focused gameplay by altering your carefully laid out team.
For sure, and would make the earlier parts of the game harder. Still could be worth it.
Entering this discussion only now, I have to admit I didn't hesitate answering the question even for one second.
Before we all found out from the official announcement there would be no NPCs in IWDEE, I had feared Beamdog would include Dorn and Co into IWDEE, I really had done. A reason?
Well, there're several, in fact:
1) I feared that developing NPCs would take too much time. We're talking about a game with 6 characters in a party and no vanilla NPCs at all, so there would have to be at least 6 NPCs if Beamdog have chosen that route. We see how long it took to develop BG:EE NPCs and it could be even a bigger task to create NPCs for IWDEE.
2) I feared the quality of NPCs would be not enough. The need to create many NPCs would mean even less resourses were taken to develop them. If 4 NPCs get negative reviews, how could they create 6 or even more new NPCs? And if it were the same BG:EE NPCs, there would be a risk of making Dorn and Co look short in IWD if compared to their BG versions.
3) IWD feels differently than BG. This game is just different. It would be strange to change the basics of IWD in the EE if the basics of BG have not been changed in the EEs.
4) It's better to concentrate on bug-fixing and polishing the game than on developing NPCs for the game that was not designed for having NPCs.
i already said something on this topic a long time ago on the forums i voted for beamdog adding NPC's but i know that it's never going to happen (edit: and i'm not really dissapointed about it because i don't think it's realistic for them to do)
so basically, i would like there to be a *mod* that adds a large roster (around 40) of fairly plain NPC's that would act as soldiers/henchmen that you would typically find in fairly large squads in towns alongside important quest-giving characters and taverns. you would typically get them as retinue for the mission at hand but you'd get to pick which ones you like and keep them for the rest of the game. ~25 should be available in the first quarter of the game and the other 15 or so in the remaining 3/4.
what they would need to have - just three things essentialy: 1. a *join/leave condition*
- a scripted condition mostly tied to the main quest but preferably tied to sidequests as well - a charisma check *but only* for some of the opposing alignment chars (if you want to minmax the party configuration, gotta raise that charisma) - for many there could be a joining price - evil NPC's (placed incospicuously alongside enemy groups) you could routinely meet in combat situations with resolutions such as: "give me x number of coins or i'll kill you" and instead you offer them a y number of coins in order for them to join you and they do - as for quitting, it should tied to reputation, nothing else; some lawful-good boors might give you a time limit to complete a certain part of the main quest in x days or they leave
2. written lines of *simple dialogue* to go along boss fights and important quest resolutions
all in all maybe 5-10 units of short dialogue for each NPC (40x10 = 400; it's not that much because they wouldn't have fleshed out personalities so the dialogue would be fairly similar among equally aligned chars); among those 40 NPC's only maybe 3 would have fairly distinct personalities, 10 would have somewhat distinct personalities and the rest would be absolutely stereotypical when it comes to writing
3. *unique stats, abilities and limitations* (distinctive stats) - THIS is the reason why NPC's are needed in the first place!
human-made starting NPCs are so boring for me because none of them have anything individual about them stat-wise, they all conform to the rules perfectly (and more often than not have super attributes that you give them). the reason BG saga NPCs have individuality is partly because of their nicely designed personalities but *for me* more importantly because they fail to obey to rules, typically having some of the following traits - wrong attributes/race/alignment for their class and kit, idiotic items nailed to their inventory, narrow utility in combat (some weaker bg1 ones especially), scandalously placed proficiency pips, most can't dualclass like you'd want them to, some have awesome special abilities (deathbringer assault, mazzy's paladin powers) and some are simply gods (again, sarevok)
^^^ that's (#3) what IWD always lacked for me - every party that i have played the game with worked like a swiss watch - from conception to execution. ever since i first completed the game there was nothing unpredictable or at least something that complicates the choices that you have to make (do you want to dualclass that character at point-in-time-x? lol you've known the answer to that from the moment you created her, didn't you). this way you get infinitely more choice and strategy throughout the game because you've had less choice at the beginning - combined with random drops (there should be more of them) this could produce some fascinating outcomes where you have to adapt, switch characters and make build choices that you weren't planning all along.
i know the game is not about choice but that's also why it's not about replayability, at least for me and a certain number of others. this would totally fix it for me and some future players i suppose and make it a *real* RPG.
what the NPC's would not need to have: 1. elaborate character design and artistic writing (however the simple writing that's required can also be high-quality and appropriate in tone) 2. NPC quests 3. romances 4. conflicts and other in-between interactions 5. newly made portraits (a bunch of them is already in the game and a bunch of others are at disposal) 6. newly made sound (just let them have the same generic voices)
yes, some you could get for free, but most you would have to pay for (moderate one-time sums); you're the hero of the saga after all not them
also the buy-out option in some battles (that nets you one or more npc's; but now we're talking epic amounts of gold of course) could also be pretty exciting
edit: none of the characters would however be true mercenaries in the sense that you pay them as you go, in regular intervals. but that could be implemented too and it's easy to script i suppose - this idea could combine very neatly with alignments and reputation - the greater the alignment conflict in the party the more you pay overall (say, every 24h)
edit #2: it seems this is also a very reasonable solution to rest-scumming (that's how i call the practice in my own case, i don't blame anyone for their style of play) - too much resting wastes gold edit #3: ^it seems like a prettier way to factor in passage of time as a strategic factor (which i feel all IE games are missing, sorely) than my previous idea with rations and compelling events http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/199492/#Comment_199492
I liked the idea, mercenary characters can not develop links with the party (and the player), thus being able to die or be used as cannon fodder without regret. Some places could even need the sacrifice of a mercenary or two (by being too difficult or quest alike event)
@kamuizin yeah. for example: the evil totem promises you a reward if you bring it five pure souls to be sacrificed (five good npcs which are all supposed to die) but as they arrive at the destination alongside you they smell what's going on and attack you - you can beg the totem for help, it sends a spirit to help you manage the crowd but the totem is not happy with the outcome because the offering is now ruined (too much blood spilled, dunno lol) so the spirit turns on to you and you have to kill it all by yourself and it leaves a weird powerful ethereal item.
the second solution would be to bring five naive npc's (neither has wisdom above 12) and the ritual would succeed, but the totem would turn against you too, much stronger this time of course because of the ritual and summon some powerful corporeal monsters, however you manage to escape, return with the (normal, presumably evil) party, clean up and get different, more conventional loot and a significant amount of exp.
the third solution is you persuade the totem to fulfill it's obligation (super high wis check) and you get the promised reward in the form of some attribute increase or permanent immunity.
in order to have even moderately fleshed out personal followers (such as BG1) you would have to have a lot of dialogue written for each one of them, and since IWD is primarily a tactical game, every important and interesting class and role would have to be covered all with different alignments and that by my estimates means at least 30-40 npc's. that would amount to inconceivable amounts of text and scripting, it's not only *literally* impossible, it would also clutter the game.
only a couple real followers could theoretically be introduced while at least 90% would have to be simpler henchmen
for example 3 true followers - one good, one evil, one neutral (perhaps already existing characters in the game that could be modded to join you at a certain point)
with ~28 npc's the pool would still looks fairly dull in terms of choice in my opinion; some of these characters could have special abilities and items to make them stand out.
the remaining 10 should be the most generic kitless NPCs. that would round it up nicely.
I missed this. Don't say it again.... ever ever ever!!!! Someone could misunderstand, and no one should ever think at this as a possibility!!!!! ^____^
In a multiverse with infinite universe, there must be somewhere one universe (more than one is far too much even in a multiverse with infinite universe) where they have Planescape: Torment without NPCs!!!!!
And somewhere else, there must be infinite monkeys randomly typing in a keyboard trying to create a Planescape: Torment without NPCs! And in a too early infinite amount of time they will be able to achieve their purpose!!!
I can't stand it!! Please someone must give something else to think about!!!!
Okay, where did Boo hide when Minsc was captured by Irenicus?
Obviously in his left sock. Irenicus thought it looked funny, but he'd rather assume Minsc had horrible bunions then try and take those suckers off. Just imagine how bad that guy's feet smell.
Okay, where did Boo hide when Minsc was captured by Irenicus?
Obviously in his left sock. Irenicus thought it looked funny, but he'd rather assume Minsc had horrible bunions then try and take those suckers off. Just imagine how bad that guy's feet smell.
Myconids aren't the only fungoids to worry about, after all.
I want to qualify my answer (because it is pretty Meh...). I would love to have the option to add NPCs to my group if I so choose. I think it adds something even to a game where you can specifically create all 6 party members. Maybe you have a blended group? But you aren't required to do so. I also think that the inclusion of NPC characters adds the potential for character driven content and side quests. I think that is EXCELLENT for additional content.
However, I would not fault the team if they chose to focus more on other areas of development instead. Call me Neutral/Good (were good is in favor of NPCs and Evil is against).
yeah i agree, you might as well create 5 characters and take one along during the game. IWD has a range nice non-playable characters, what do you think about making some of them joinable at a certain point?
Please no. Black Isle would never have added joinable NPCs. They didn't in any of the expansions and they still didn't in the sequel. I would bet there's nothing in the design documents about this either. It's simply not part of the game design for Icewind Dale. Please stay true to the original designers' intentions.
Please no. Black Isle would never have added joinable NPCs. They didn't in any of the expansions and they still didn't in the sequel. I would bet there's nothing in the design documents about this either. It's simply not part of the game design for Icewind Dale. Please stay true to the original designers' intentions.
Well, that was their market choice, but the rights belongs to beamdog now. We don't have to stand only in their steps, cos if i'm not wrong Dorn, Neera and Rasaad aren't original NPCs either and Black Isle surely didn't planed these ones.
it was a storytelling choice for there to be no npc driven storytelling, yeah. doesn't mean the current state of the game would suffer if something was added to it.
we're not even proposing story-heavy npc's, just fighting followers.
it was a storytelling choice for there to be no npc driven storytelling, yeah. doesn't mean the current state of the game would suffer if something was added to it.
we're not even proposed story-heavy npc's, just fighting followers.
IWD, both the original and the EE, would sell/have sold more copies with jNPCs. Hence, the reason for not having them had nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with design.
JNPCs where tagged onto NWN as a marketing decision.
It was an "market" choice. It was a storytelling choice.
You presume that, as much as i presume it's an marketing choice.
Baldur's Gate had to have the unfinished business mod because it was launched before being ready, in reason of a "marketing" choice, so maybe, just maybe, the company that make the work not always have full control of all the decisions toward the game it produce.
Joinable NPCs are evolution, tell me the name of a single actual RPG party structured game without joinable NPCs, cos in my mind the names that come to favor my example are many.
what i think was an actual design choice was the player's ability to create as many playable characters as you like. and a good one at that.
but they (the original devs) should have added more flavor and depth to the game because it's so close to being a very solid full-fledged crpg. in my opinion, adding some joinable npc's would have been a solid step closer to that goal. it's simply intuitive to me that they might have thought the same - the same way beamdog developers have apparently entertained the idea
but it was judged otherwise for reasons probably having to do with preventing feature-creep and keeping the game narrowly focused on it's main thing (tactics). at the time, baldur's gate was there to provide the broader experience and IWD was more of a side dish.
if that's true, the decision not to include any jNPCs is not a true design decision - it's more of a project management decision.
but beamdog also have similar practical restrictions and i don't expect them to build upon the games design, just add polish and content, that's what the EE project is about anyway.
that's why when they said "that's not what the game is about", what they really meant is "that's not what our project is about" and i respect that.
doesn't mean the game would be somehow ruined by having jNPCs.
Comments
Before we all found out from the official announcement there would be no NPCs in IWDEE, I had feared Beamdog would include Dorn and Co into IWDEE, I really had done. A reason?
Well, there're several, in fact:
1) I feared that developing NPCs would take too much time. We're talking about a game with 6 characters in a party and no vanilla NPCs at all, so there would have to be at least 6 NPCs if Beamdog have chosen that route. We see how long it took to develop BG:EE NPCs and it could be even a bigger task to create NPCs for IWDEE.
2) I feared the quality of NPCs would be not enough. The need to create many NPCs would mean even less resourses were taken to develop them. If 4 NPCs get negative reviews, how could they create 6 or even more new NPCs? And if it were the same BG:EE NPCs, there would be a risk of making Dorn and Co look short in IWD if compared to their BG versions.
3) IWD feels differently than BG. This game is just different. It would be strange to change the basics of IWD in the EE if the basics of BG have not been changed in the EEs.
4) It's better to concentrate on bug-fixing and polishing the game than on developing NPCs for the game that was not designed for having NPCs.
I think the Devs' decision here was spot on.
i voted for beamdog adding NPC's but i know that it's never going to happen (edit: and i'm not really dissapointed about it because i don't think it's realistic for them to do)
so basically, i would like there to be a *mod* that adds a large roster (around 40) of fairly plain NPC's that would act as soldiers/henchmen that you would typically find in fairly large squads in towns alongside important quest-giving characters and taverns. you would typically get them as retinue for the mission at hand but you'd get to pick which ones you like and keep them for the rest of the game.
~25 should be available in the first quarter of the game and the other 15 or so in the remaining 3/4.
what they would need to have - just three things essentialy:
1. a *join/leave condition*
- a charisma check *but only* for some of the opposing alignment chars (if you want to minmax the party configuration, gotta raise that charisma)
- for many there could be a joining price - evil NPC's (placed incospicuously alongside enemy groups) you could routinely meet in combat situations with resolutions such as: "give me x number of coins or i'll kill you" and instead you offer them a y number of coins in order for them to join you and they do
- as for quitting, it should tied to reputation, nothing else; some lawful-good boors might give you a time limit to complete a certain part of the main quest in x days or they leave
2. written lines of *simple dialogue* to go along boss fights and important quest resolutions
3. *unique stats, abilities and limitations* (distinctive stats) - THIS is the reason why NPC's are needed in the first place!
the reason BG saga NPCs have individuality is partly because of their nicely designed personalities but *for me* more importantly because they fail to obey to rules, typically having some of the following traits - wrong attributes/race/alignment for their class and kit, idiotic items nailed to their inventory, narrow utility in combat (some weaker bg1 ones especially), scandalously placed proficiency pips, most can't dualclass like you'd want them to, some have awesome special abilities (deathbringer assault, mazzy's paladin powers) and some are simply gods (again, sarevok)
^^^ that's (#3) what IWD always lacked for me - every party that i have played the game with worked like a swiss watch - from conception to execution. ever since i first completed the game there was nothing unpredictable or at least something that complicates the choices that you have to make (do you want to dualclass that character at point-in-time-x? lol you've known the answer to that from the moment you created her, didn't you).
this way you get infinitely more choice and strategy throughout the game because you've had less choice at the beginning - combined with random drops (there should be more of them) this could produce some fascinating outcomes where you have to adapt, switch characters and make build choices that you weren't planning all along.
i know the game is not about choice but that's also why it's not about replayability, at least for me and a certain number of others. this would totally fix it for me and some future players i suppose and make it a *real* RPG.
what the NPC's would not need to have:
1. elaborate character design and artistic writing (however the simple writing that's required can also be high-quality and appropriate in tone)
2. NPC quests
3. romances
4. conflicts and other in-between interactions
5. newly made portraits (a bunch of them is already in the game and a bunch of others are at disposal)
6. newly made sound (just let them have the same generic voices)
also the buy-out option in some battles (that nets you one or more npc's; but now we're talking epic amounts of gold of course) could also be pretty exciting
edit: none of the characters would however be true mercenaries in the sense that you pay them as you go, in regular intervals. but that could be implemented too and it's easy to script i suppose - this idea could combine very neatly with alignments and reputation - the greater the alignment conflict in the party the more you pay overall (say, every 24h)
edit #2: it seems this is also a very reasonable solution to rest-scumming (that's how i call the practice in my own case, i don't blame anyone for their style of play) - too much resting wastes gold
edit #3: ^it seems like a prettier way to factor in passage of time as a strategic factor (which i feel all IE games are missing, sorely) than my previous idea with rations and compelling events http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/199492/#Comment_199492
yeah. for example: the evil totem promises you a reward if you bring it five pure souls to be sacrificed (five good npcs which are all supposed to die) but as they arrive at the destination alongside you they smell what's going on and attack you - you can beg the totem for help, it sends a spirit to help you manage the crowd but the totem is not happy with the outcome because the offering is now ruined (too much blood spilled, dunno lol) so the spirit turns on to you and you have to kill it all by yourself and it leaves a weird powerful ethereal item.
the second solution would be to bring five naive npc's (neither has wisdom above 12) and the ritual would succeed, but the totem would turn against you too, much stronger this time of course because of the ritual and summon some powerful corporeal monsters, however you manage to escape, return with the (normal, presumably evil) party, clean up and get different, more conventional loot and a significant amount of exp.
the third solution is you persuade the totem to fulfill it's obligation (super high wis check) and you get the promised reward in the form of some attribute increase or permanent immunity.
only a couple real followers could theoretically be introduced while at least 90% would have to be simpler henchmen
for example
3 true followers - one good, one evil, one neutral (perhaps already existing characters in the game that could be modded to join you at a certain point)
25 soldiers/mercs
good/neutral warriors - fighter, wizard slayer, undead hunter, cleric/ranger, archer
good/neutral casters - specialist mage, kitted cleric, druid, thief>mage, cleric/mage
good/neutral others - swashbuckler, bounty hunter, skald, monk, cleric/thief
evil warriors - berserker, barbarian, blackguard, fighter/thief
evil casters - sorcerer, dragon disciple, necromancer, evil cleric
evil others - assassin, jester, some mage>thief combo (for a change)
with ~28 npc's the pool would still looks fairly dull in terms of choice in my opinion; some of these characters could have special abilities and items to make them stand out.
the remaining 10 should be the most generic kitless NPCs. that would round it up nicely.
Don't say it again.... ever ever ever!!!! Someone could misunderstand, and no one should ever think at this as a possibility!!!!!
^____^
In a multiverse with infinite universe, there must be somewhere one universe (more than one is far too much even in a multiverse with infinite universe) where they have Planescape: Torment without NPCs!!!!!
And somewhere else, there must be infinite monkeys randomly typing in a keyboard trying to create a Planescape: Torment without NPCs! And in a too early infinite amount of time they will be able to achieve their purpose!!!
I can't stand it!! Please someone must give something else to think about!!!!
I don't wanna know thank you very much
However, I would not fault the team if they chose to focus more on other areas of development instead. Call me Neutral/Good (were good is in favor of NPCs and Evil is against).
we're not even proposing story-heavy npc's, just fighting followers.
(edited for grammar)
JNPCs where tagged onto NWN as a marketing decision.
Baldur's Gate had to have the unfinished business mod because it was launched before being ready, in reason of a "marketing" choice, so maybe, just maybe, the company that make the work not always have full control of all the decisions toward the game it produce.
Joinable NPCs are evolution, tell me the name of a single actual RPG party structured game without joinable NPCs, cos in my mind the names that come to favor my example are many.
but they (the original devs) should have added more flavor and depth to the game because it's so close to being a very solid full-fledged crpg.
in my opinion, adding some joinable npc's would have been a solid step closer to that goal.
it's simply intuitive to me that they might have thought the same - the same way beamdog developers have apparently entertained the idea
but it was judged otherwise for reasons probably having to do with preventing feature-creep and keeping the game narrowly focused on it's main thing (tactics). at the time, baldur's gate was there to provide the broader experience and IWD was more of a side dish.
if that's true, the decision not to include any jNPCs is not a true design decision - it's more of a project management decision.
but beamdog also have similar practical restrictions and i don't expect them to build upon the games design, just add polish and content, that's what the EE project is about anyway.
that's why when they said "that's not what the game is about", what they really meant is "that's not what our project is about" and i respect that.
doesn't mean the game would be somehow ruined by having jNPCs.