Actually, from what I understand, the IWD NPCs are part of your party from before the game starts, likely due to the limitation of the engine. Hopefully, this limitation is lifted for IWDEE, allowing us to recruit people out in the world, though in a linear game, it does force all NPCs close together as you want to be able to pick them up early, but I don't see that as a big problem.
NPCs are not needed in IWD. The party you create shows up in Easthaven and from there they proceed to investigate the mysterious goings-on north of the Spine of the World.
I can't really seem to wrap my head around the NPC's ruining the concept of the game...
It's largely down to the structure of the story and how it is told. The Baldur's Gate saga is a story about one specific character, the Bhaalspawn. You see this in most NPC driven RPGS: Nameless One, Shepard, Revan etc. The NPCs are defined by there relationship with this central character. Icewind Dale is a story about a PLACE. The only characters who are significant are the ones who live there all the time.
Icewind Dale is also like A Fistful of Dollars. Spending time fleshing out Clint Eastwood's character (like a name, for example) would have lessened the mythic nature of the story.
Actually, from what I understand, the IWD NPCs are part of your party from before the game starts, likely due to the limitation of the engine. Hopefully, this limitation is lifted for IWDEE, allowing us to recruit people out in the world, though in a linear game, it does force all NPCs close together as you want to be able to pick them up early, but I don't see that as a big problem.
That's a main issue for me too @Thels, i'm with crossed fingers in the hope of an enhancement that allow, at least, modded NPCs to be introduced in the game by Baldur's Gate style. Much of the immersion is killed when i add an joinable NPC with the character creation system.
NPCs are not needed in IWD. The party you create shows up in Easthaven and from there they proceed to investigate the mysterious goings-on north of the Spine of the World.
you see, @Mathsorcerer, that a point of view, your point of view of the game. This is not my point of view or the point of many others, when i introduced the DLC only option, that option was meant to exactly protect this, the different points of view around this subject.
Into an contrary sense, i affirm strongly that NPCs are much needed in IWD (to the point that even recognizing a well developed game in the old IWD, i didn't liked it much as i did with BG and others).
How the party begin is irrelevant as the ones i meet in the game could have the same objective, or no, that's in the hands of the NPC creator. Their motivation can be a lot more diferent or darker for example to partake in the same adventure, and that can add a entirely new taste in the game.
Since there seems to be a lot of questions surrounding this:
Because IWDEE is built with the same engine as BGEE/BGIIEE, modders will be able to make NPCs just as they do in BGEE/BGIIEE. You can have them scattered about the game world and have them join/leave, have personal quests, etc.
Adding NCPs would be like removing the NPCs form PS:T, I'd say that it should be better left to mods (anyway if they do add NPCs I won't have anything against it but, again, it's not the game's spirit).
I can't really seem to wrap my head around the NPC's ruining the concept of the game...
It's largely down to the structure of the story and how it is told. The Baldur's Gate saga is a story about one specific character, the Bhaalspawn. You see this in most NPC driven RPGS: Nameless One, Shepard, Revan etc. The NPCs are defined by there relationship with this central character. Icewind Dale is a story about a PLACE. The only characters who are significant are the ones who live there all the time.
Icewind Dale is also like A Fistful of Dollars. Spending time fleshing out Clint Eastwood's character (like a name, for example) would have lessened the mythic nature of the story.
I'm not sure I understand. I don't exactly know what the plotline of IWD is, but I would assume, since you make all your own characters that it's about achieving some goal that seems like an appealing thing to do... that is to say, it's not about some personal agenda involving only 1 or a select few people. It is something that many people might want to accomplish for many different reasons, like liberating a kingdom, defeating an evil warlord, or even just saving the world. Therefore, would it not make sense that more than 1 person is invested in seeing the mission accomplished? And couldn't these people join up to achieve their common goal? Do the NPC's have to be drawn to a certain individual instead of all drawn to the same cause?
If IWD is supposed to be more about the people of the dale, and not about just one individual would having recruitable NPC's scattered throughout that land not enrich the setting? You'd be getting more exposure to the people of the North, what they are like, and how they are invested in fixing the troubles of their region...
Also, I'm sure that many people are planning on creating backstories and personalities for their adventuring group (I am), would you advise against that? If getting emotionally invested in your characters beyond that their just a human fighter or a dwarf cleric will lessen the mythic nature of the story I'm intrigued as to what this story might be...
Well I won't spoil anything! There isn't any reason not to make background stories for your party, but they do have to be strangers to the location. When NPCs talk to the party they will treat them as strangers, and any party member can initiate dialogue.
they may be strangers in the beginning, of course. yet, they are working together in their "adventure", getting to know each other while they travel together, they have a background story (maybe) and they have for sure a personal opinion about their quest, about events along the way, etc. they don't necessarily stay complete strangers to each other from the beginning till the end of the game. that's what i'm missing from the IWD characters so far, they are very silent just whatever great victory they have just accomplished, just how long they have been traveling together and what foes they have encountered, or whatever plot twist they have just been thrown into ...
i don't get the real difference to the BG NPCs – they are strangers to each other too, but they travel together, develope, interact and have an opinion on what just happened or is going ot happen while they work together. the only difference is there is no main character the plot is hooked to. they may are all be "equal" in the beginning. yet they travel together and might exchange while they do ... therefore: more depth to the game with interacting characters! be it officials or mods, but make it possible at least
I've personally never played IWD, I did play through IWD2 however and one of my biggest gripes about that game is that you had a party full of silent characters. I'm a big fan of BG and BG2, As well as Dragon Age Origins because of the party interaction (I use the NPC Project mod for BG1.) It makes the games more immersive and fun for me to play, so I wouldn't be against there being new social NPC's added to the game.
Now, I've never played the first game so I'm not really sure to what degree people consider the experience ruined or changed too much from adding recruitable NPC's but as an outsider looking in, that argument doesn't really make that much sense to me. IWD is a roleplaying game, while it might have more focus on tactics and strategy than some, at its core it is a roleplaying game, no? Why would anyone be against the addition of something that makes the game, typically, feel more immersive and alive in a role playing game? I'm genuinely asking because, like I said, I've never played IWD. I can't really seem to wrap my head around the NPC's ruining the concept of the game... Would it require less strategy or tactics if you didn't create all of your party members? Will you not play multiplayer because of this?
It's not so much that NPCs ruin anything as the game is really great without them. The game was purposefully designed without them to focus on a different kind of experience from Baldur's Gate, to differentiate the franchises. I want that design philosophy to inform IWDEE the way it informed IWD. There's plenty of roleplaying opportunities, world building, and immersive elements to be had in IWD. Those elements just are not the same as those employed in Baldur's Gate, and that is perfectly okay. In fact, it's more than okay. It's wonderful. It keeps these games from being homogeneous.
Since there seems to be a lot of questions surrounding this:
Because IWDEE is built with the same engine as BGEE/BGIIEE, modders will be able to make NPCs just as they do in BGEE/BGIIEE. You can have them scattered about the game world and have them join/leave, have personal quests, etc.
@Camdawg - Will the IWD-in-BG2 Tweakpack NPCs work with IWD:EE? Any chance it would be installable?
Icewind Dale is also like A Fistful of Dollars. Spending time fleshing out Clint Eastwood's character (like a name, for example) would have lessened the mythic nature of the story.
An absolutely #bhaaler analogy there. Spot on
What I would really like to see is a major adventure expansion. Like a massive quest pack a la Trials of the Luremaster or even better... a continuation after the events of Heart of Winter. There are several spots to add sidequests too.
Even something seperate, like The Black Pits, would be nice as long as it had more of a story and less of a gladiator arena style thing going on.
I bought this game when it first came out and while I loved the ambiance I was only able to finish it once because of the lack of NPCs and banter. I returned many times reminded by the good stuff, but always stopped half way as I got bored by the series of silent battles. I'll be buying this for ipad from the moment there are at least some decent npc mods available.
@recklessheart, I apologize if my post offended you (or others). I do think the resources-argument you and others mentioned against the addition of Beamdog NPCs, is a valid one, and I tried to bring that across in my post. But maybe I failed to do so properly. Once more, sorry if I sounded too harsh. What I was trying to say is that I'm less convinced about the more principal 'spirit of the game' argument against Beamdog NPCs, especially if such NPCs were to be optional content for everyone to use or not use. Those who like NPCs can use them, and those who don't can ignore them. BG can be played solo, with NPCs or with a custom party without any of that necessarily going against the 'spirit' of that game imo, and I would personally appreciate the same flexibility for IWD, if technically/financially feasible. (I also don't think IWD is like 'For a Fistful of Dollars' because The Man with No Name is the ultimate solo character, whereas IWD is often played with parties.) Anyway I'm a clear minority here, and I'm well aware that this discussion is a theoretical one, so I'll leave it at that. It's not a major issue for me anyway.
@Blackraven I think that how optional NPCs are is not really my issue, but more of the aesthetic mindset that goes into working on the game. Black Isle decided not to include JNPCs, and so they focused on other things with that mindset. I want Overhaul to approach the game the same way.
@blackraven Oh, no, not at all - I wasn't offended, and you needn't apologise. I just wanted to illuminate as many sides of the debate as possible, starting with my own, that's all
I understand what you mean. However, more than 10 years on, while EE will advance the nuances of the gaming engine, and the gaming engine is still more enjoyable than many modern ones, it still remains a 'primitive' engine by modern purchaser standards. Therefore, for people to want to actually -buy- IWD:EE, it stands to reason that the optional content needs to be universally desirable, if that makes sense. Nobody will spend $19.00 or whatever it is on a re-release of an older game that offers content they don't want. It's fairly understandable and legitimate marketing, I think.
In fact, following that argument, the NPC-dependant side-quest areas of BG EEs seems like bad marketing, in hindsight. BG however, will stand the test of time better than IWD due to its built-in and irrevocably powerful narrative, despite the limitations of the engine under which it is ran (which I, personally, have no objection to. But you see what I mean, I hope).
However, for the point of DLC only NPCs i'm a bit curious to people resisting the idea.
@kamuizin my resistance to adding NPCs is more of a practical one, since I believe the time and resources of the developers (which are clearly limited) would be better spent enhancing the game in other ways, and ways more in line with the original direction of the game (ie Quests, customization) rather than introducing new aspects to the experience. Of course, if time and resources were not an issue, I would love to see more NPCs, since more options are always better (if you like them, you can use them. If not, then create your own characters).
I do hope that eventually people will create baller mod NPCs that will add a lot to the game, and I will try those mods.
As others have said several times all over the Forum, IWD is not BG.
*If* joinable NPCs are found to be necessary, I'd prefer them to be in some sort of optional mode. To me it doesn't make much sense from a story point of view to have them anywhere beyond Easthaven or Kuldahar, because a midgame change in the party setup would really break the flow of the narrative. The party as a whole is the actual protagonist of Icewind Dale.
I'm for the idea of NPCs even though I'm fairly certain there won't be any with the initial release. I like the game as it is and have finished the original version multiple times, but more features and options are always a good thing even if some of them are additions I won't use much (I've yet to create a Blackguard character in the EEs for instance, and I'm unlikely to make use of any of the modder friendly changes made to the engine).
However, for the point of DLC only NPCs i'm a bit curious to people resisting the idea.
@kamuizin my resistance to adding NPCs is more of a practical one, since I believe the time and resources of the developers (which are clearly limited) would be better spent enhancing the game in other ways, and ways more in line with the original direction of the game (ie Quests, customization) rather than introducing new aspects to the experience. Of course, if time and resources were not an issue, I would love to see more NPCs, since more options are always better (if you like them, you can use them. If not, then create your own characters).
I do hope that eventually people will create baller mod NPCs that will add a lot to the game, and I will try those mods.
Ok, but... if despise this fact you raised, if the NPC DLCs came anyway, would that offend you? If the Devs position themselfs in make NPC DLCs, would that bother you? Would you criticize the devs for NPC DLCs if they come or give up playing the game for their presence?
That's the point i raise when i speak about curiosity.
I have selected ''Yes, i vote for Beamdog Core NPCs to be added on IWD:EE'' since I'm not again it, same thing for the DLC addition only, I'm not again it.
I love the way IWD1 and IWD2 are different from BG1 and BG2; creating your whole party vs recruiting your whole party, having only a few quests and a lot of fighting vs having an overwhelming number of quests and a good share of fighting . But I realize that the main difference between IWD and BG at the end is not that, it's the party interaction.
None of your party member will never speak to you directly and they will never speak to each other, they will never comment on anything during your journey, that the main difference in my opinion. That a different style and I love it, but really, how can I mind if Beamdog add 4-6 characters scattered here and there that can add this ''little something'' that so many people love in BG1 and BG2.
The party interaction (adding npcs) in IWD is for me the equivalent of the arena in BG:EE and BG2:EE, not necessary, but can be a nice addition for some players and then I'm not again it. I suppose that some players just do not want them to be forced in their throat in game with some aggressive of desperate scenario as ''bring me with you right now or I leave for good'' or ''if you don't take me with you they will kill me'' which can be easily managed by the devs.
] 1. Ok, but... if despise this fact you raised, if the NPC DLCs came anyway, would that offend you? 2. If the Devs position themselfs in make NPC DLCs, would that bother you? 3. Would you criticize the devs for NPC DLCs if they come or give up playing the game for their presence?
Ah, if that is the case, I'll answer the three questions you posed 1. Nope! I'm fine with it. I don't own the rights to the game! They can do what they want. I'll probably buy them 2. Not at all for the reasons stated above. In fact I would be quite happy that people like yourself would get what they wished for 3. If the NPCs sucked (in my opinion) then I would probably say that, but I wouldn't go out of my way to voice that opinion, nor would I give up playing the game since it would only be an optional component.
*If* joinable NPCs are found to be necessary, I'd prefer them to be in some sort of optional mode. To me it doesn't make much sense from a story point of view to have them anywhere beyond Easthaven or Kuldahar, because a midgame change in the party setup would really break the flow of the narrative.
hmmm... I'm not actually sure I entirely agree with this. I actually would not mind NPCs to show up in certain places. Maybe I should make a thread...
Comments
Icewind Dale is also like A Fistful of Dollars. Spending time fleshing out Clint Eastwood's character (like a name, for example) would have lessened the mythic nature of the story.
you see, @Mathsorcerer, that a point of view, your point of view of the game. This is not my point of view or the point of many others, when i introduced the DLC only option, that option was meant to exactly protect this, the different points of view around this subject.
Into an contrary sense, i affirm strongly that NPCs are much needed in IWD (to the point that even recognizing a well developed game in the old IWD, i didn't liked it much as i did with BG and others).
How the party begin is irrelevant as the ones i meet in the game could have the same objective, or no, that's in the hands of the NPC creator. Their motivation can be a lot more diferent or darker for example to partake in the same adventure, and that can add a entirely new taste in the game.
Because IWDEE is built with the same engine as BGEE/BGIIEE, modders will be able to make NPCs just as they do in BGEE/BGIIEE. You can have them scattered about the game world and have them join/leave, have personal quests, etc.
3 companion packs, 10$ each (or however much it takes), here's my card!
Adding NCPs would be like removing the NPCs form PS:T, I'd say that it should be better left to mods (anyway if they do add NPCs I won't have anything against it but, again, it's not the game's spirit).
No, i vote for Beamdog Core NPCs to not be added on IWD:EE
If IWD is supposed to be more about the people of the dale, and not about just one individual would having recruitable NPC's scattered throughout that land not enrich the setting? You'd be getting more exposure to the people of the North, what they are like, and how they are invested in fixing the troubles of their region...
Also, I'm sure that many people are planning on creating backstories and personalities for their adventuring group (I am), would you advise against that? If getting emotionally invested in your characters beyond that their just a human fighter or a dwarf cleric will lessen the mythic nature of the story I'm intrigued as to what this story might be...
yet, they are working together in their "adventure", getting to know each other while they travel together, they have a background story (maybe) and they have for sure a personal opinion about their quest, about events along the way, etc. they don't necessarily stay complete strangers to each other from the beginning till the end of the game.
that's what i'm missing from the IWD characters so far, they are very silent just whatever great victory they have just accomplished, just how long they have been traveling together and what foes they have encountered, or whatever plot twist they have just been thrown into ...
i don't get the real difference to the BG NPCs – they are strangers to each other too, but they travel together, develope, interact and have an opinion on what just happened or is going ot happen while they work together. the only difference is there is no main character the plot is hooked to.
they may are all be "equal" in the beginning. yet they travel together and might exchange while they do ... therefore: more depth to the game with interacting characters! be it officials or mods, but make it possible at least
What I would really like to see is a major adventure expansion. Like a massive quest pack a la Trials of the Luremaster or even better... a continuation after the events of Heart of Winter. There are several spots to add sidequests too.
Even something seperate, like The Black Pits, would be nice as long as it had more of a story and less of a gladiator arena style thing going on.
What I was trying to say is that I'm less convinced about the more principal 'spirit of the game' argument against Beamdog NPCs, especially if such NPCs were to be optional content for everyone to use or not use. Those who like NPCs can use them, and those who don't can ignore them. BG can be played solo, with NPCs or with a custom party without any of that necessarily going against the 'spirit' of that game imo, and I would personally appreciate the same flexibility for IWD, if technically/financially feasible. (I also don't think IWD is like 'For a Fistful of Dollars' because The Man with No Name is the ultimate solo character, whereas IWD is often played with parties.) Anyway I'm a clear minority here, and I'm well aware that this discussion is a theoretical one, so I'll leave it at that. It's not a major issue for me anyway.
I think that how optional NPCs are is not really my issue, but more of the aesthetic mindset that goes into working on the game. Black Isle decided not to include JNPCs, and so they focused on other things with that mindset. I want Overhaul to approach the game the same way.
I understand what you mean. However, more than 10 years on, while EE will advance the nuances of the gaming engine, and the gaming engine is still more enjoyable than many modern ones, it still remains a 'primitive' engine by modern purchaser standards. Therefore, for people to want to actually -buy- IWD:EE, it stands to reason that the optional content needs to be universally desirable, if that makes sense. Nobody will spend $19.00 or whatever it is on a re-release of an older game that offers content they don't want. It's fairly understandable and legitimate marketing, I think.
In fact, following that argument, the NPC-dependant side-quest areas of BG EEs seems like bad marketing, in hindsight. BG however, will stand the test of time better than IWD due to its built-in and irrevocably powerful narrative, despite the limitations of the engine under which it is ran (which I, personally, have no objection to. But you see what I mean, I hope).
I do hope that eventually people will create baller mod NPCs that will add a lot to the game, and I will try those mods.
*If* joinable NPCs are found to be necessary, I'd prefer them to be in some sort of optional mode. To me it doesn't make much sense from a story point of view to have them anywhere beyond Easthaven or Kuldahar, because a midgame change in the party setup would really break the flow of the narrative. The party as a whole is the actual protagonist of Icewind Dale.
Ok, but... if despise this fact you raised, if the NPC DLCs came anyway, would that offend you? If the Devs position themselfs in make NPC DLCs, would that bother you? Would you criticize the devs for NPC DLCs if they come or give up playing the game for their presence?
That's the point i raise when i speak about curiosity.
I love the way IWD1 and IWD2 are different from BG1 and BG2; creating your whole party vs recruiting your whole party, having only a few quests and a lot of fighting vs having an overwhelming number of quests and a good share of fighting . But I realize that the main difference between IWD and BG at the end is not that, it's the party interaction.
None of your party member will never speak to you directly and they will never speak to each other, they will never comment on anything during your journey, that the main difference in my opinion. That a different style and I love it, but really, how can I mind if Beamdog add 4-6 characters scattered here and there that can add this ''little something'' that so many people love in BG1 and BG2.
The party interaction (adding npcs) in IWD is for me the equivalent of the arena in BG:EE and BG2:EE, not necessary, but can be a nice addition for some players and then I'm not again it. I suppose that some players just do not want them to be forced in their throat in game with some aggressive of desperate scenario as ''bring me with you right now or I leave for good'' or ''if you don't take me with you they will kill me'' which can be easily managed by the devs.
1. Nope! I'm fine with it. I don't own the rights to the game! They can do what they want. I'll probably buy them
2. Not at all for the reasons stated above. In fact I would be quite happy that people like yourself would get what they wished for
3. If the NPCs sucked (in my opinion) then I would probably say that, but I wouldn't go out of my way to voice that opinion, nor would I give up playing the game since it would only be an optional component.