@Tanthalas: lol, yeah the quest wasn't truly hard, but it was hard because it was a little confusing. And when you complete it, nothing happens. What. The. Hell.
@Quartz: Yeah, the voice actor doing Kagain kind of bothered me. I did like his rivalry with Yeslick. It's hilarious...he says something funny when Yeslick dies, I think.
@Silence- It ends when he says something about being tired of looking for the caravan- or something like that. And his line about Yeslick is "Stupid Dwarf was gonna get himself killed sooner or later."
lol, that sounds about right. I thought Yeslick was great too! But he was also in a bit of a weird place and deep into the main quest chain.
I think it's interesting that most of the game's most beloved NPCs are really accessible and out in the opening. I sometimes wonder if Kagain/Yeslick wouldn't have been more popular if they were just put in plain sight.
I didn't mind Yeslick, but Kagain never got a look in my parties ever again once I saw he was Evil
Lol, I feel bad for you. Most of the powerful NPCs are Evil for some reason. Kagain is a formidable fighter. Edwin is hands-down the best mage. Viconia is pretty much the best cleric.
It's not that hard to mix evil with good parties. At least not from my experience. I do it all the time.
Edwin got mauled by a bear while I was journing to the gnoll stronghold and Viconia was dumped once I realised every other healing spell was not going to work on her.
Kagain is one of my favourite characters and I love his world-weary voice. Also specialising in axes is great because for some reason throwing axes and battle axes are regarded as one proficiency so you get a two-for-one deal, you get better with your missile weapon and your melee weapon at the same time.
I do tend to completely forget that he is evil though. He just doesn't seem evil (his quest certainly isn't). I guess that's why they created Korgan for BG2. Now he really is a very naughty boy ...
Kagain is one of my favourite characters and I love his world-weary voice. Also specialising in axes is great because for some reason throwing axes and battle axes are regarded as one proficiency so you get a two-for-one deal, you get better with your missile weapon and your melee weapon at the same time.
I do tend to completely forget that he is evil though. He just doesn't seem evil (his quest certainly isn't). I guess that's why they created Korgan for BG2. Now he really is a very naughty boy ...
Yeah he's greedy and self-centered but other than that he hardly seems *evil.*
And ugh, Korgan. I can't help but be bitter about his existence, with him being so similar to Kagain and yet, his personality completely unimaginative.
Korgan was a big disappointment. He was very boring. I find that generally characters who are listed as evil are simply chaotic, in the alignment sense. Truly evil characters are usually too difficult to incorporate into a party-based rpg in an enjoyable way.
I don't find evil characters any better than the good ones. Viconia, IMHO, is not a better cleric than Branwen or Yeslick. Her biggest statistical benefit is a high DEX score. Her strength is too low for many good armours, she gets no Con bonus to HP and has only an average wisdom...and if you're good, she leaves your party if your rep gets too high, usually taking your Ankheg plate along with her (ha). What's best about Viconia, if you ask me, is her sass and cool backstory. Took her almost every time
All classes regen hit points at 20 Con. You simply do not gain bonus HP per level beyond 16.
Abusing Draw From Holy Might to gain 20+ Con before resting so you regain all your HP without healing spells is a particularly favorite tactic of mine.
You can actually do the same thing sort of with the innate "Vampiric Touch" spell (it may work with the spell when you are a mage/sorceror but I haven't tested it). Just cast Vampiric Touch on a chest or item on the ground and then immediately rest (I have had mixed results with creatures and casting on yourself). If you rest as soon as you can after the casting you can heal yourself much quicker than just by resting.
In the entire BG Saga, evil NPC's are just better than the good ones. It's a fact.
People get caught up in numbers a little too much without realizing what they really mean. You know that Viconia at 8 constitution only has 1 less HP per level than Branwen with 15? You don't hit a penalty for low constitution til you go below 7 and 15 constitution only nets you +1 per level through level 9. It's really not a big deal at all. Her lower strength kind of sucks but the only difference between 9 strength and 13 is carry weight and equipment possibilities. Branwen can't really equip very heavy armors herself, and her strength isn't high enough to give her any bonuses to THAC0 or damage. Branwen has slightly higher wisdom, but you know the only difference between 15 and 16? A level 2 spell and I think some extra lore value. Level 2 divine spells are all crap.
Edwin is hands-down the best mage in the game. He's the only mage, in fact, that can surpass the player character in spells per level, because his amulet secretly confers extra spells per level. The best mage beside him is sadly Imoen, and then you have to deal with leveling her as a thief first to a usable level and then regaining said levels.
Shar-Teel is the best archer in the game. The reason she's better than Kivan: Weapon proficiencies. Rangers can't go beyond 2. She can go all the way to 5.
Kaigan is the best tank in the game. Slap the gauntlets of dexterity on him and he's next to unkillable.
Montaron is a better fighter/thief than Coran, and Xzar is a pretty capable wizard himself. Plus, you get both of them basically on the starting screen so you can utilize them however you want whereas a lot of later NPCs will join with effed up abilities n such.
Hell, even Eldoth has his purpose as a money maker. Craft arrows, sell for gold. Profit. His arrows are pretty nasty helpful against wizards, too. (But he's still awful, and Skie sucks.)
Let's not even go into how every evil NPC in baldur's gate 2 is amaze-balls.
You know that Viconia at 8 constitution only has 1 less HP per level than Branwen with 15? You don't hit a penalty for low constitution til you go below 7 and 15 constitution only nets you +1 per level through level 9.
Actually I think Baldur's Gate behaves differently from how it says it does in the manual. I think I remember a character with Con8 suffering from reduced HP.
In the entire BG Saga, evil NPC's are just better than the good ones. It's a fact.
People get caught up in numbers a little too much without realizing what they really mean. You know that Viconia at 8 constitution only has 1 less HP per level than Branwen with 15? You don't hit a penalty for low constitution til you go below 7 and 15 constitution only nets you +1 per level through level 9. It's really not a big deal at all. Her lower strength kind of sucks but the only difference between 9 strength and 13 is carry weight and equipment possibilities. Branwen can't really equip very heavy armors herself, and her strength isn't high enough to give her any bonuses to THAC0 or damage. Branwen has slightly higher wisdom, but you know the only difference between 15 and 16? A level 2 spell and I think some extra lore value. Level 2 divine spells are all crap.
Edwin is hands-down the best mage in the game. He's the only mage, in fact, that can surpass the player character in spells per level, because his amulet secretly confers extra spells per level. The best mage beside him is sadly Imoen, and then you have to deal with leveling her as a thief first to a usable level and then regaining said levels.
Shar-Teel is the best archer in the game. The reason she's better than Kivan: Weapon proficiencies. Rangers can't go beyond 2. She can go all the way to 5.
Kaigan is the best tank in the game. Slap the gauntlets of dexterity on him and he's next to unkillable.
Montaron is a better fighter/thief than Coran, and Xzar is a pretty capable wizard himself. Plus, you get both of them basically on the starting screen so you can utilize them however you want whereas a lot of later NPCs will join with effed up abilities n such.
Hell, even Eldoth has his purpose as a money maker. Craft arrows, sell for gold. Profit. His arrows are pretty nasty helpful against wizards, too. (But he's still awful, and Skie sucks.)
Let's not even go into how every evil NPC in baldur's gate 2 is amaze-balls.
Thank you for beating me to the cake on Viconia there. Took the words out of my mouth. Sure other clerics excel at other things but they are only ever so slightly better, kind of sad. Then they bumped her Wisdom to 18 in BGII, I seriously dig that.
Agree with Edwin.
Disagree with Shar-Teel. Don't get me wrong I like Shar-Teel but having to train her to have all those Bow proficiencies you speak of takes time considering her first four are in Large Swords and Small Swords. Oh, and fighters get very few level ups in BG1, so she can only get up to 3 Bow Proficiencies before capping. Btw, since you said "people get caught up in the numbers a little too much," Shar-Teel's strength is only better than Kivan's by +1 damage. That's it. THAC0 bonus is the same even. And sure, Shar-Teel can have more proficiencies (by one), but Kivan is an Elf so he gets a nifty bow bonus.
With that said, I think Shar-Teel is a fantastic melee fighter and she is very capable. But no, not the best bow user.
Agree with Kagain. Agree with Montaron. Although your claim that "Xzar is a pretty capable wizard himself," lol I've managed to make him decent before but I don't think he's very good at all.
Eldoth really is pretty crappy it's true. Skie isn't bad but Imoen is just plain better and you can get her waaaaaay earlier so ... kind of stupid.
You know that Viconia at 8 constitution only has 1 less HP per level than Branwen with 15? You don't hit a penalty for low constitution til you go below 7 and 15 constitution only nets you +1 per level through level 9.
Actually I think Baldur's Gate behaves differently from how it says it does in the manual. I think I remember a character with Con8 suffering from reduced HP.
Well, to put it bluntly, you remember wrong. All Baldur's Gate NPCs get normal HP, even Xan who ranks in at the lowest with a Constitution of 7.
This just reminds me of how much more versatile the parties feel in bg1 over bg2. More possible varieties. More freedom about the order in which you meet them.
Also I hate the quest jam in bg2 I am in athkatla 2 days and I suddenly have 3 time sensitive quests with cranky noc's attached.
@sandmanCCL: That you feel evil NPCs are better is just that - a feeling, not a fact. Below follows my interpretation of the same characters:
Viconia: For all intensive purposes, Branwen and Viconia have the same AC, unless you give the Ankheg plate to Viconia. All clerics in the game have more HP and spells than Viconia. They also have useful special abilities, whereas Viconia does not. Viconia is best with slings, but these never deal much damage. There is no clear winner here: all are great clerics.
Kagain: He receives no dexterity bonus, only a small strength bonus, and is proficient in one of the games less useful weapons (axe). Khalid and Minsc are proficient in much more useful weapons, and Minsc has way more Strength and Berserker rage. The Bracers of Dex would make a wonderful tank of any character - Ajantis, Jaheria or even Yeslick - not just Kagain. Further, if Kagain is using the Bracers of Dexterity, he cannot equip the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Someone like Minsc needs neither item.
Shar-teel: She is not the best archer in the game - this is dead wrong. When you find her, she has zero proficiency points in bows. Kivan and Coran are both specialized in bows. Since archery in BG1 is exceptional, these two are likely to do more damage than Shar-teel, even if she is using a melee weapon! Also, Shar-teel is not the best melee warrior in the game: Minsc has higher strength Shar-Teel, more HP, and Berserker Rage. So there is no clear edge for Shar-Teel here.
Montaron: Lovable guy. Useful and versatile. But he's not proficient in bows, whereas Imoen is. Imoen has a higher DEX score and levels fast, so the two have very similar THAC0 scores throughout the game when it comes to missile weapons. Monty can backstab and tank, but Imoen cannot. However, Imoen can DC to create one of the most useful characters in the game: the thief/mage. Monty, in contrast, blows his thieving ability points on Stealth and can neither disarm traps nor open locks. Again, no clear edge.
Edwin: Clear edge for him. but not by much. He only gets a few extra spells. However, Dynaheir is pretty damn good too. Xan is also competitive, particularly if you like strategy spells.
It's fine if you want to say evil characters can be strong. I'm with you. But stronger than good characters? Just don't see that.
@sandmanCCL: That you feel evil NPCs are better is just that - a feeling, not a fact. Below follows my interpretation of the same characters:
Viconia: For all intensive purposes, Branwen and Viconia have the same AC, unless you give the Ankheg plate to Viconia. All clerics in the game have more HP and spells than Viconia. They also have useful special abilities, whereas Viconia does not. Viconia is best with slings, but these never deal much damage. There is no clear winner here: all are great clerics.
Kagain: He receives no dexterity bonus, only a small strength bonus, and is proficient in one of the games less useful weapons (axe). Khalid and Minsc are proficient in much more useful weapons, and Minsc has way more Strength and Berserker rage. The Bracers of Dex would make a wonderful tank of any character - Ajantis, Jaheria or even Yeslick - not just Kagain. Further, if Kagain is using the Bracers of Dexterity, he cannot equip the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Someone like Minsc needs neither item.
Shar-teel: She is not the best archer in the game - this is dead wrong. When you find her, she has zero proficiency points in bows. Kivan and Coran are both specialized in bows. Since archery in BG1 is exceptional, these two are likely to do more damage than Shar-teel, even if she is using a melee weapon! Also, Shar-teel is not the best melee warrior in the game: Minsc has higher strength Shar-Teel, more HP, and Berserker Rage. So there is no clear edge for Shar-Teel here.
Montaron: Lovable guy. Useful and versatile. But he's not proficient in bows, whereas Imoen is. Imoen has a higher DEX score and levels fast, so the two have very similar THAC0 scores throughout the game when it comes to missile weapons. Monty can backstab and tank, but Imoen cannot. However, Imoen can DC to create one of the most useful characters in the game: the thief/mage. Monty, in contrast, blows his thieving ability points on Stealth and can neither disarm traps nor open locks. Again, no clear edge.
Edwin: Clear edge for him, but not by much. He only gets a few extra spells. Dynaheir is pretty damn good too. Xan is also competitive, particularly if you like strategy spells.
It's fine if you want to say evil characters can be strong. I'm with you. But stronger than good characters? Just don't see that.
The clerics are pretty even it's true.
Kagain. He regenerates. He has a ton of hit points. I completely agree that other characters can tank; Minsc, Shar-Teel, Khalid, Ajantis; but from all my experimenting, he *does it best.* Yes, better than your precious little Minsc. On the contrary, come BG2 Minsc kicks the @#%$ out of Korgan. But Korgan sucks, so no bitterness here.
Shar-Teel: Umm yeah seriously, I was like what ... she is not an archer. Front-liner yes, archer no. I'll agree that Minsc is essentially better than her. She has one more Dex point (which you can also use to Dual her to a thief, randomly), big whoop.
Montaron: Pick him up early. He'll have 50% stealth, never level it ever again and it's perfect; Shadow Armor + Boots of Stealth = 100%. Your point on the thieving skills is moot if you ask me, so long as you pick him up early; which the game pretty much encourages you to. And he can heavy crossbow, those are actually pretty sweet. Especially since so few characters use them, it feels nice to actually *give* the Crossbow of Accuracy to someone for a change. However, comparing him to Imoen; I'll agree you can't compare to Imoen. She's pretty much perfect.
Edwin: "Only gets a few extra spells." Rofl. Unlock new level of spells, Mage: 1 Specialist: 2 Edwin: 4. Only a few extra spells ... that's a lot! As for your love of Dynaheir, I don't get it. She has the same awful armor class as Edwin, same good hit points as Edwin, and a worse Intelligence by 1 point. Don't get me wrong, she's a great choice if you are keeping Evil peoples out of your party. And truly, her innate ability of Slow Poison is pretty sweet. Xan is pretty good too I agree, so long as you have a Bard or another Mage to pick up the slack on the Evocation side of things. (Fireballs, Magic Missiles, Webs, Stinking Clouds, Cloudkills) He's fun to play alternatively. You have him cast Mirror Image and stuff and make him stab things. Have him throw Horror, Acid Arrows, and lovely SKULL TRAPS!
I pretty much agree with all your points. All I was trying to illustrate was that the evil characters are not infinitely superior, but pretty much equal with good characters overall.
I do not love Dynaheir, even as a friend. But I felt she was more than good enough, especially with a Ring of Wizardry, to be an excellent mage. Thank you for correcting me on Edwin - I had no idea how ridiculous his spellcasting powers were. I knew he was the best mage, but I underestimated just how much better he was.
I pretty much agree with all your points. All I was trying to illustrate was that the evil characters are not infinitely superior, but pretty much equal with good characters overall.
I do not love Dynaheir, even as a friend. But I felt she was more than good enough, especially with a Ring of Wizardry, to be an excellent mage. Thank you for correcting me on Edwin - I had no idea how ridiculous his spellcasting powers were. I knew he was the best mage, but I underestimated just how much better he was.
Yes, I agree that people probably shouldn't say "well this character is just infinitely better, I'll use them." Way more fun to role play it and mix things up and make all sorts of different teams.
Glad I could clear that up. "Ridiculous" is definitely a good word for it haha!
Shar-Teels main strength is to be dual-classed as a Thief at an appropriate level. Either at Fighter level 3 (weapon proficiency), Fighter level 6 (weapon proficiency) or Fighter level 7 (extra 1/2 attack). It depends how long you want to wait to gain your Fighter skills back.
It's perfectly possible to level Imoen as a Thief and level Shar-Teel as a Fighter, then midgame dual-class them both and have Shar-Teel take up Imoens Thieving duties whilst Imoen gains levels as a Mage. It takes a bit of micro-management but is managable.
All of this talk about Edwin, Korgan, and Viconia make me wanna run an evil party just to try to 'redeem' as many as I can.
Or at least run Viconia with a mod for F/F romances (since you CAN make her CG).
So say: Bard (Blade) PC Imoen Thief dualed Mage Korgan (AXES) Viconia Kivan Xan (so much arcane but I hear the banter between the 3 elves is worth it).
Then I guess in BG2: Blade Imoen/Nalia Edwin Viconia Korgain XXXXXXXX /Saervok in ToB to redeem him too
This is my party in BG1: Fighter, Xzar (buffed to be more viable), Coran, Korgan, Kivan and Viconia. I really like Branwen and Yeslick, but I can't fit them in. I think I'm also really going to like Dorn.
BG2: Same Fighter, Viconia, Yoshimo and Sarevok, when you can get him. I just don't like the other NPCs in BG2. I might give a few of them a try when I get the Enhanced Edition.
I am honestly surprised that none of you guys have tried out Shar-Teel as an archer. Give it a shot. She's amazing from a distance. You can get her at level 2 if you want, which leaves as much room as you want for leveling her how you want. Remember, Mazzy is a fighter in BG2 but no one really considers her one because of her default procifiency in bows as well as her unique one. (Oddly enough Mazzy is arguably the best tank in the series but we're not talking BG2 so I won't get into it.) Saying she's a "front line fighter" as if that's her only role is ignorant.
I also want to point out I wasn't saying Kivan is bad. Just saying she's on par with him at the very least, and people never seem to recognize that. Kivan is the de facto NPC when people discuss archers, and she's basically an evil version of him.
Minsc is great, but he's saddled with Dynaheir who is my least favorite mage in the game. She's the worst mage kit, bar none. She's barred from TWO schools, both of which are rather good. Honestly if he wasn't saddled with the nonsensical multi-class to cleric, Quayle would be the better NPC. Enchantment and Abjuration are absolute must-haves and she loses Enchantments. Losing Conjurations on top of that means she can't buff/debuff worth a damn. No Sleep? No Armor? No Hold Person? No summoning of any kind? All she can do is lob damage, but even Xan can do that if you give him a wand of fireballs. If I could get Minsc alone, I'd consider him the best melee fighter in the game.
The Branwen/Viconia debate for me comes down to ranged THAC0 honestly. Neither one of them can tank worth a damn, so Viconia is the deadlier NPC when it comes to auto-attacking. The only difference between them due to their wisdom scores is a SINGLE level 2 spell. Let's go look at level 2 Cleric spells, shall we? Draw Upon Holy Might is not really great for either Vic or Bran because they aren't really up their to tank and neither of them ever gets strength worth writing home about. Spiritual Hammer and Flame Blade are worthless on characters better off slinging bullets. Honestly the only spell I find myself frequently using at that level is Hold Person. I can live one less cast of that per day if it means my character is better in every other aspect.
Oh, and Viconia has 50% innate magic resist. That's her "special ability." And a pretty good one. Much more useful than spiritual hammer on someone who has no business in Melee. Are there better? Yes, because Tiax exists. But still. It's nice.
I'd also like to point out I said "hands down" better. Not infinitely superior. There are plenty of great good NPCs. However, the evil ones all manage to be the best-in-class at what they do, even if it's by small margins. I am quite fond of Khalid as a tank, but Kagain is still better at it (and I don't have to bring his horrible, horrible, just sub-par crappy wife with me). I like Coran, but Montaron is just so much more useful due to where/when you pick him up and just has better overall stats. I actually think Minsc is overrated in BG1 because 15 dexterity is only a single whopping -1 AC, so he's starved for the Gauntlets of Dexterity if you want him to fight in melee battle as much as Kagain is, plus my burning hatred for Dynaheir knows no bounds.
We didn't even really get to talk about an all neutral party. Those can be a lot of fun. Turning Xan into a melee machine of killy death is quite possibly my favorite thing in BG1 even though it's not a terribly viable tactic.
@Humanoid_Taifun: You don't suffer -1 HP per level til you have 6 Con. I've tested it. There aren't any NPCs with constitution that low for a reason (though Xan brushes up against it.) Unless you're a shorty, there's no difference in combat between 7 and 14 constitution, in AD&D rules. Your guy will almost always be tired with constitution that low, but it doesn't affect your HP pool.
@sandmanCCL Well of course you can MAKE Shar-Teel a good archer by working your ass off on it, but it takes a damn lot more time and effort. Flat out calling her an "archer" sounds ridiculous; that'd be like calling Xzar a Cleric, just because if you hand him a tome he can do that dual-class. Same sort of time and work commitments there. So yes if you are going through the game with an already mostly evil (or completely evil) party then duh you are going to pick her up and work hard to make her an archer. But otherwise, ehh. With 3 slots and enough levels she'll have a better THAC0 than Kivan, but still not by much since he's an elf and gets an innate bow bonus. Plus, by the time you have those 3 slots them fighters already hit pretty much everything, THAC0 isn't a big deal, damage is however. And her strength only gives her +1 THAC0 over Kivan's, no extra damage unfortunately.
Btw I completely agree on Dynaheir being miserable. And Viconia kickin' ass. Thank you.
Coran's a bit overrated. His cheater three slots in Bows allow for some awesomely delicious THAC0 but with no strength bonus that's hardly exciting. I agree that Montaron has much better overall abilities.
Comments
@Quartz: Yeah, the voice actor doing Kagain kind of bothered me. I did like his rivalry with Yeslick. It's hilarious...he says something funny when Yeslick dies, I think.
I found this strait from the players handbook.
20 1/6 turns
21 1/5 turns
22 1/4 turns
23 1/3 turns
24 1/2 turns
25 1/1 turns
To me it sounds like 1 every 6 turns, 1 every 5 turns, etc.
I think it's interesting that most of the game's most beloved NPCs are really accessible and out in the opening. I sometimes wonder if Kagain/Yeslick wouldn't have been more popular if they were just put in plain sight.
Kagain is a formidable fighter.
Edwin is hands-down the best mage.
Viconia is pretty much the best cleric.
It's not that hard to mix evil with good parties. At least not from my experience. I do it all the time.
That's definitely not true for Baldur's Gate. I know because I've seen Con25 in action. That should no longer be an issue, now that we're using the BG2 engine.
I do tend to completely forget that he is evil though. He just doesn't seem evil (his quest certainly isn't). I guess that's why they created Korgan for BG2. Now he really is a very naughty boy ...
And ugh, Korgan. I can't help but be bitter about his existence, with him being so similar to Kagain and yet, his personality completely unimaginative.
People get caught up in numbers a little too much without realizing what they really mean. You know that Viconia at 8 constitution only has 1 less HP per level than Branwen with 15? You don't hit a penalty for low constitution til you go below 7 and 15 constitution only nets you +1 per level through level 9. It's really not a big deal at all. Her lower strength kind of sucks but the only difference between 9 strength and 13 is carry weight and equipment possibilities. Branwen can't really equip very heavy armors herself, and her strength isn't high enough to give her any bonuses to THAC0 or damage. Branwen has slightly higher wisdom, but you know the only difference between 15 and 16? A level 2 spell and I think some extra lore value. Level 2 divine spells are all crap.
Edwin is hands-down the best mage in the game. He's the only mage, in fact, that can surpass the player character in spells per level, because his amulet secretly confers extra spells per level. The best mage beside him is sadly Imoen, and then you have to deal with leveling her as a thief first to a usable level and then regaining said levels.
Shar-Teel is the best archer in the game. The reason she's better than Kivan: Weapon proficiencies. Rangers can't go beyond 2. She can go all the way to 5.
Kaigan is the best tank in the game. Slap the gauntlets of dexterity on him and he's next to unkillable.
Montaron is a better fighter/thief than Coran, and Xzar is a pretty capable wizard himself. Plus, you get both of them basically on the starting screen so you can utilize them however you want whereas a lot of later NPCs will join with effed up abilities n such.
Hell, even Eldoth has his purpose as a money maker. Craft arrows, sell for gold. Profit. His arrows are pretty nasty helpful against wizards, too. (But he's still awful, and Skie sucks.)
Let's not even go into how every evil NPC in baldur's gate 2 is amaze-balls.
I think I remember a character with Con8 suffering from reduced HP.
Then they bumped her Wisdom to 18 in BGII, I seriously dig that.
Agree with Edwin.
Disagree with Shar-Teel. Don't get me wrong I like Shar-Teel but having to train her to have all those Bow proficiencies you speak of takes time considering her first four are in Large Swords and Small Swords. Oh, and fighters get very few level ups in BG1, so she can only get up to 3 Bow Proficiencies before capping. Btw, since you said "people get caught up in the numbers a little too much," Shar-Teel's strength is only better than Kivan's by +1 damage. That's it. THAC0 bonus is the same even. And sure, Shar-Teel can have more proficiencies (by one), but Kivan is an Elf so he gets a nifty bow bonus.
With that said, I think Shar-Teel is a fantastic melee fighter and she is very capable. But no, not the best bow user.
Agree with Kagain. Agree with Montaron. Although your claim that "Xzar is a pretty capable wizard himself," lol I've managed to make him decent before but I don't think he's very good at all.
Eldoth really is pretty crappy it's true. Skie isn't bad but Imoen is just plain better and you can get her waaaaaay earlier so ... kind of stupid. Well, to put it bluntly, you remember wrong. All Baldur's Gate NPCs get normal HP, even Xan who ranks in at the lowest with a Constitution of 7.
Also I hate the quest jam in bg2 I am in athkatla 2 days and I suddenly have 3 time sensitive quests with cranky noc's attached.
Viconia: For all intensive purposes, Branwen and Viconia have the same AC, unless you give the Ankheg plate to Viconia. All clerics in the game have more HP and spells than Viconia. They also have useful special abilities, whereas Viconia does not. Viconia is best with slings, but these never deal much damage. There is no clear winner here: all are great clerics.
Kagain: He receives no dexterity bonus, only a small strength bonus, and is proficient in one of the games less useful weapons (axe). Khalid and Minsc are proficient in much more useful weapons, and Minsc has way more Strength and Berserker rage. The Bracers of Dex would make a wonderful tank of any character - Ajantis, Jaheria or even Yeslick - not just Kagain. Further, if Kagain is using the Bracers of Dexterity, he cannot equip the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Someone like Minsc needs neither item.
Shar-teel: She is not the best archer in the game - this is dead wrong. When you find her, she has zero proficiency points in bows. Kivan and Coran are both specialized in bows. Since archery in BG1 is exceptional, these two are likely to do more damage than Shar-teel, even if she is using a melee weapon! Also, Shar-teel is not the best melee warrior in the game: Minsc has higher strength Shar-Teel, more HP, and Berserker Rage. So there is no clear edge for Shar-Teel here.
Montaron: Lovable guy. Useful and versatile. But he's not proficient in bows, whereas Imoen is. Imoen has a higher DEX score and levels fast, so the two have very similar THAC0 scores throughout the game when it comes to missile weapons. Monty can backstab and tank, but Imoen cannot. However, Imoen can DC to create one of the most useful characters in the game: the thief/mage. Monty, in contrast, blows his thieving ability points on Stealth and can neither disarm traps nor open locks. Again, no clear edge.
Edwin: Clear edge for him. but not by much. He only gets a few extra spells. However, Dynaheir is pretty damn good too. Xan is also competitive, particularly if you like strategy spells.
It's fine if you want to say evil characters can be strong. I'm with you. But stronger than good characters? Just don't see that.
Kagain. He regenerates. He has a ton of hit points. I completely agree that other characters can tank; Minsc, Shar-Teel, Khalid, Ajantis; but from all my experimenting, he *does it best.* Yes, better than your precious little Minsc. On the contrary, come BG2 Minsc kicks the @#%$ out of Korgan. But Korgan sucks, so no bitterness here.
Shar-Teel: Umm yeah seriously, I was like what ... she is not an archer. Front-liner yes, archer no. I'll agree that Minsc is essentially better than her. She has one more Dex point (which you can also use to Dual her to a thief, randomly), big whoop.
Montaron: Pick him up early. He'll have 50% stealth, never level it ever again and it's perfect; Shadow Armor + Boots of Stealth = 100%. Your point on the thieving skills is moot if you ask me, so long as you pick him up early; which the game pretty much encourages you to. And he can heavy crossbow, those are actually pretty sweet. Especially since so few characters use them, it feels nice to actually *give* the Crossbow of Accuracy to someone for a change.
However, comparing him to Imoen; I'll agree you can't compare to Imoen. She's pretty much perfect.
Edwin: "Only gets a few extra spells." Rofl. Unlock new level of spells, Mage: 1 Specialist: 2 Edwin: 4. Only a few extra spells ... that's a lot! As for your love of Dynaheir, I don't get it. She has the same awful armor class as Edwin, same good hit points as Edwin, and a worse Intelligence by 1 point. Don't get me wrong, she's a great choice if you are keeping Evil peoples out of your party. And truly, her innate ability of Slow Poison is pretty sweet. Xan is pretty good too I agree, so long as you have a Bard or another Mage to pick up the slack on the Evocation side of things. (Fireballs, Magic Missiles, Webs, Stinking Clouds, Cloudkills) He's fun to play alternatively. You have him cast Mirror Image and stuff and make him stab things. Have him throw Horror, Acid Arrows, and lovely SKULL TRAPS!
I do not love Dynaheir, even as a friend. But I felt she was more than good enough, especially with a Ring of Wizardry, to be an excellent mage. Thank you for correcting me on Edwin - I had no idea how ridiculous his spellcasting powers were. I knew he was the best mage, but I underestimated just how much better he was.
Glad I could clear that up. "Ridiculous" is definitely a good word for it haha!
It's perfectly possible to level Imoen as a Thief and level Shar-Teel as a Fighter, then midgame dual-class them both and have Shar-Teel take up Imoens Thieving duties whilst Imoen gains levels as a Mage. It takes a bit of micro-management but is managable.
Or at least run Viconia with a mod for F/F romances (since you CAN make her CG).
So say:
Bard (Blade) PC
Imoen Thief dualed Mage
Korgan (AXES)
Viconia
Kivan
Xan (so much arcane but I hear the banter between the 3 elves is worth it).
Then I guess in BG2:
Blade
Imoen/Nalia
Edwin
Viconia
Korgain
XXXXXXXX /Saervok in ToB to redeem him too
BG2: Same Fighter, Viconia, Yoshimo and Sarevok, when you can get him. I just don't like the other NPCs in BG2. I might give a few of them a try when I get the Enhanced Edition.
I am honestly surprised that none of you guys have tried out Shar-Teel as an archer. Give it a shot. She's amazing from a distance. You can get her at level 2 if you want, which leaves as much room as you want for leveling her how you want. Remember, Mazzy is a fighter in BG2 but no one really considers her one because of her default procifiency in bows as well as her unique one. (Oddly enough Mazzy is arguably the best tank in the series but we're not talking BG2 so I won't get into it.) Saying she's a "front line fighter" as if that's her only role is ignorant.
I also want to point out I wasn't saying Kivan is bad. Just saying she's on par with him at the very least, and people never seem to recognize that. Kivan is the de facto NPC when people discuss archers, and she's basically an evil version of him.
Minsc is great, but he's saddled with Dynaheir who is my least favorite mage in the game. She's the worst mage kit, bar none. She's barred from TWO schools, both of which are rather good. Honestly if he wasn't saddled with the nonsensical multi-class to cleric, Quayle would be the better NPC. Enchantment and Abjuration are absolute must-haves and she loses Enchantments. Losing Conjurations on top of that means she can't buff/debuff worth a damn. No Sleep? No Armor? No Hold Person? No summoning of any kind? All she can do is lob damage, but even Xan can do that if you give him a wand of fireballs. If I could get Minsc alone, I'd consider him the best melee fighter in the game.
The Branwen/Viconia debate for me comes down to ranged THAC0 honestly. Neither one of them can tank worth a damn, so Viconia is the deadlier NPC when it comes to auto-attacking. The only difference between them due to their wisdom scores is a SINGLE level 2 spell. Let's go look at level 2 Cleric spells, shall we? Draw Upon Holy Might is not really great for either Vic or Bran because they aren't really up their to tank and neither of them ever gets strength worth writing home about. Spiritual Hammer and Flame Blade are worthless on characters better off slinging bullets. Honestly the only spell I find myself frequently using at that level is Hold Person. I can live one less cast of that per day if it means my character is better in every other aspect.
Oh, and Viconia has 50% innate magic resist. That's her "special ability." And a pretty good one. Much more useful than spiritual hammer on someone who has no business in Melee. Are there better? Yes, because Tiax exists. But still. It's nice.
I'd also like to point out I said "hands down" better. Not infinitely superior. There are plenty of great good NPCs. However, the evil ones all manage to be the best-in-class at what they do, even if it's by small margins. I am quite fond of Khalid as a tank, but Kagain is still better at it (and I don't have to bring his horrible, horrible, just sub-par crappy wife with me). I like Coran, but Montaron is just so much more useful due to where/when you pick him up and just has better overall stats. I actually think Minsc is overrated in BG1 because 15 dexterity is only a single whopping -1 AC, so he's starved for the Gauntlets of Dexterity if you want him to fight in melee battle as much as Kagain is, plus my burning hatred for Dynaheir knows no bounds.
We didn't even really get to talk about an all neutral party. Those can be a lot of fun. Turning Xan into a melee machine of killy death is quite possibly my favorite thing in BG1 even though it's not a terribly viable tactic.
@Humanoid_Taifun: You don't suffer -1 HP per level til you have 6 Con. I've tested it. There aren't any NPCs with constitution that low for a reason (though Xan brushes up against it.) Unless you're a shorty, there's no difference in combat between 7 and 14 constitution, in AD&D rules. Your guy will almost always be tired with constitution that low, but it doesn't affect your HP pool.
Btw I completely agree on Dynaheir being miserable. And Viconia kickin' ass. Thank you.
Coran's a bit overrated. His cheater three slots in Bows allow for some awesomely delicious THAC0 but with no strength bonus that's hardly exciting. I agree that Montaron has much better overall abilities.
Minsc has a 16 Dex, FYI.