he didn't say that they weren't willing to change it because it was the same in vanilla, he only said that since it was already in vanilla it is most likely not game breaking.
When you factor in sorcerers and how good clerical and druidic spells are, and the fact that all warrior classes have new items to play with, mages got dealt a poor hand. Lots of new spells for mages but oh you can't use them until late in the game.
What was game breaking back then may not be game breaking now, and what is game breaking now may not have been game breaking back then. Remember how much of the game has changed, when you factor in new kits etc.
it's true, mages are comparatively weaker but buffing them will only make the game easier (and also compromise on some aesthetical choices which have become emblematic of the game) which is too high a price to pay for the luxury of having classes seem more even. you have to see both sides of the coin.
It sounds like it is not difficulty that is the issue here, but frustration due to the fact that have to sit around and cast magic missile all day at times when they have access to 5th level spells.
Sure, it will affect difficulty. Is that necessarily a problem? Right now, the mage class is short changed. They are next to useless in the early part of the game - whereas sorcerers are not.
Its like, you can play any class you want - just avoid mage.
@Com_Solaufein Would you mind making another one of your store type mods to either add the "missing" scrolls or add a new vendor? It sounds like a job very similar to your excellent TeamBG's Armor Pack For BG2EE or TeamBG's Weapon Pack For BG2EE.
This is just my personal opinion, but I think it makes the game more exciting to have to find most of the powerful spells, just like most of the best weapons come from adentures, not shops.
Especially in the early game it is extremely rare to be able to affort to buy a weapon. So, unless a scroll would also cost tens of thousands of gp, instead of a few thousand top, I see nothing wrong with them being unavailable for sale.
Yeah I think it's a perfectly legit game design decision. The mage remains an important part of a balanced party, but they're not silly over-powered like in the BG saga. They also could have handled spells like the magic weapons, that is, have the scrolls just be crazy expensive. That would actually be more like most PnP I've played (10K or so for a 3rd level scroll).
But either way I like the result, it makes IWD a more restrained setting where resource management is a bigger issue, for longer in the game, than it is in BG.
I think the issue here is. You look at Sorcerers they get spells on level up, as do Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers..... The only other class that doesn't is the Bard. Now lets look at a Bard with no spells vs. a Wizard. The bard can put a point in any weapon, and sing his bard song, and can identify anything. The wizard on the other hand he gets mauled to death by a house cat.
Mages are always fragile. But they do still get magic, they do still get to pick any two spells at first level, and their spells do scale as they go up levels. Some things, they just have to wait a little longer for. As I said before, it's a game design decision, and it strikes me as legitimate. I understand they are less dominating than in some games, but they remain useful and capable in IWD. Fardragon mentioned above going without a mage. I've occasionally used a bard instead of a mage in IWD, and I now have a party going that uses a Sorcerer instead of a Mage. Those are all viable options that alter the feel and balance of the world. It's no different than if you chose a Druid instead of a cleric. Balance, mood and feel can all vary based on the setting, and the party decisions we make.
I think the issue here is. You look at Sorcerers they get spells on level up, as do Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers..... The only other class that doesn't is the Bard. Now lets look at a Bard with no spells vs. a Wizard. The bard can put a point in any weapon, and sing his bard song, and can identify anything. The wizard on the other hand he gets mauled to death by a house cat.
run away from the house cat and use your sling to shoot rocks at it.
Someday, you'll grow up and pwn everything but for now, don't carry around any catnip on your personage.
I don't see this as a game balance issue, but more as a class viability issue. It's not about making the game easier or not (since you can go with a sorcerer).. it's about opening up the option of enjoying your class to its full extent.
If the spells are added to a store or added as loot is beside the point - a well designed game shouldn't remove the joy of a certain class, especially not in an RPG since a part of the fun is too see your character grow.
But your character will grow. This is blown way out of proportion. So you have to scrounge a few scrolls before you can buy what you want. It is not a big deal. The player plays in a world that the GM designed. If you don't like the world, don't play in it. I LIKE the slower amassing of magic in this game. Of course I love BG too. But I think it's good to have a different balance and feel for the two games.
Y In a pen&paper campaign I wouldn't let the DM get away with willfully crippling a character by denying the very basic tools of the trade.
Wait, what? DM did what he bloody well liked and we took it. LOL. He was actually pretty good to us, but he did run an entire campaign where my wizard's spell book got heisted. We spent the first three sessions trying to track down the thief who pilched it from me. I was able to purchase a few spells, but they were things like chill touch where I was used to Magic Missile. It really made me appreciate the spells that I had acquired. Particularly when I failed my scribing percentage on some terribly useful (and the only one that I had at the time) third level spell. That hurt.
I think the issue here is. You look at Sorcerers they get spells on level up, as do Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers..... The only other class that doesn't is the Bard. Now lets look at a Bard with no spells vs. a Wizard. The bard can put a point in any weapon, and sing his bard song, and can identify anything. The wizard on the other hand he gets mauled to death by a house cat.
run away from the house cat and use your sling to shoot rocks at it.
Someday, you'll grow up and pwn everything but for now, don't carry around any catnip on your personage.
Shame that cat had monk levels.... couldn't run fast enough.
Serious note the best fix I can imagine probably allowing mages to cast lower level spells in the higher spell spots but it's not doable do to game design issues
Serious note the best fix I can imagine probably allowing makes to cast lower level spells in the higher spell spots but it's not doable do to game design issues
That's 2E not a design limitation. later editions would handle this differently. But in any game branded as 2E, you can expect this restriction.
Y In a pen&paper campaign I wouldn't let the DM get away with willfully crippling a character by denying the very basic tools of the trade.
Wait, what? DM did what he bloody well liked and we took it. LOL. He was actually pretty good to us, but he did run an entire campaign where my wizard's spell book got heisted. We spent the first three sessions trying to track down the thief who pilched it from me. I was able to purchase a few spells, but they were things like chill touch where I was used to Magic Missile. It really made me appreciate the spells that I had acquired. Particularly when I failed my scribing percentage on some terribly useful (and the only one that I had at the time) third level spell. That hurt.
That sounds like an awesome adventure! I remember several campaigns where it was a BIG DEAL to acquire new spells. Many DMs would require players to research every spell themselves, and it might take weeks or months, with your character out of action just to add a new spell to their book. These were typically worlds where all magic was hoarded carefully; no spell or weapon or anything magical would ever be "for sale". You had to use what you found, or spend a fortune making your own.
If Mages were allowed to pick one new spell on getting access to a new tier of magic I think it'd go a long way to offsetting the issue without making scrolls available. "Man, if I didn't get to pick a new spell every time I got a new level of spells I'd be in real trouble!"
That sounds like an awesome adventure! I remember several campaigns where it was a BIG DEAL to acquire new spells. Many DMs would require players to research every spell themselves, and it might take weeks or months, with your character out of action just to add a new spell to their book. These were typically worlds where all magic was hoarded carefully; no spell or weapon or anything magical would ever be "for sale". You had to use what you found, or spend a fortune making your own.
The campaign was awesome, if a bit frustrating at times. It stretched over an entire summer although I got most of my spells back by midway through.
My DM allowed me to research spells, but just not "Name" spells like Tensers or Bigby's. Those I had to find. But we did have many an adventure start out with "And there is rumor of an ancient wizard's spell book somewhere in those tombs". All in all, maybe 90% of my spells were found but there were a select few that I researched. And we never purchased them (with coin).
I actually liked that because you didn't just 'Pick' what spells you wanted. You learned what spells were available. With the way NWN handled things such that you picked from the available list every level, I just felt that coddled the players far to much. But that is merely an opinion.
I don't see how making scrolls less scarce would somehow unbalance the game; honestly it would make the game closer to being balanced. Think of it this way: in Baldur's Gate 2, it is commonly believed that sorcerers are much better than mages, even though scrolls are more common in that game. So in a game like Icewind Dale where not only are scrolls more scarce but mages don't get experience for learning new spells (not to mention that the specialist mages aren't as good), the balance between mages and sorcerers is even less substantial. Making scrolls less rare is the least they can do to maintain that impression of balance.
No one said classes should be balanced. Just ask the Wizard Slayer.
Yeah I don't think that sort of balance is a very worthy goal. I think it's a flaw in later systems that everything is all matchy/matchy. Too much balance ends up with a homogenized boring feel. Balance is more interesting when it's a little alop...
No one said classes should be balanced. Just ask the Wizard Slayer.
Yeah I don't think that sort of balance is a very worthy goal. I think it's a flaw in later systems that everything is all matchy/matchy. Too much balance ends up with a homogenized boring feel. Balance is more interesting when it's a little alop...
If someone's efforts at balancing a game causes a "homogenized boring feel," they didn't do a very good job at balancing the game.
I'm not saying that mages and sorcerers should be exactly as good as each other, but rather that it shouldn't feel like one is just better than the other. Each class should have many advantages that make them unique from any other class, even if these advantages don't end up creating a perfect balance. I feel like Icewind Dale altogether did a pretty good job at this; there are just some cases where it could've done better, that's all.
Does that mean people sticking with single class Mages are screwed? Sure. But provided they know spell scrolls are limited, then it's their own damn fault for using a single class Mage despite that.
Does that mean people sticking with single class Mages are screwed? Sure. But provided they know spell scrolls are limited, then it's their own damn fault for using a single class Mage despite that.
I WANT to have fun with pure mages. Don't you? Even if they obviously aren't nearly as good as multiclassed mages, I don't want them to FEEL inferior. I want them to have quirks that multiclassed mages don't. That is what can make a class fun to play, even if it is worse than another class.
I mean, do you think they put single class mages in the game just to screw over people who didn't realize that multiclasses are better?
No one said classes should be balanced. Just ask the Wizard Slayer.
Yeah I don't think that sort of balance is a very worthy goal. I think it's a flaw in later systems that everything is all matchy/matchy. Too much balance ends up with a homogenized boring feel. Balance is more interesting when it's a little alop...
Many of the best games have a sort of asymmetrical balance to them. Like Starcraft. Before that RTS games tended to just have two identical forces with art/thematic differences. 4e made things too equal, and some classes were still "more equal" than others; it washed out all the colors and left it a bland melange with few motes of color flitting about in a grey fog. (That's my poetry allotment for the month of November, you better enjoy it. =-p .)
We can also compare BG to IWD the same way. They have different feels, different paths to success, etc. Flooding the game with scrolls would wreck Icewind Dale, on the other hand making magic a little more available to wizards wouldn't be bad.
Something Like:
Starting at Spell Level Two, wizards may select one additional new spell for their new level.
Generalist Wizards may select any spell of the given spell level.
Specialist Wizards must select a spell from their favored school.
Wild Mages are assigned a spell randomly. Alternately they are given a group of spells randomly determined and may choose out of one of them. IE "Here's three spells, pick one." The spells should be determined, if possible, randomly when the character is rolled so you can't just reload and get a different one. Muahahaha~
Does that mean people sticking with single class Mages are screwed? Sure. But provided they know spell scrolls are limited, then it's their own damn fault for using a single class Mage despite that.
Wait, what? Oh, I assume this means that the lack of available spells early on screws them. Because the other is far from the truth. My Wizards are always ultimately THE power of the party, at least in my own mind.
I admit that it is a small inconvenience that you can't find 3rd level spells in abundance by the time you reach 5th level. I don't think it in any way BREAKS the game. You have a PARTY. Where one member is slightly inconvenienced, the rest pick up the slack. That's the way D&D always was.
Does that mean people sticking with single class Mages are screwed? Sure. But provided they know spell scrolls are limited, then it's their own damn fault for using a single class Mage despite that.
Wait, what? Oh, I assume this means that the lack of available spells early on screws them. Because the other is far from the truth. My Wizards are always ultimately THE power of the party, at least in my own mind.
I admit that it is a small inconvenience that you can't find 3rd level spells in abundance by the time you reach 5th level. I don't think it in any way BREAKS the game. You have a PARTY. Where one member is slightly inconvenienced, the rest pick up the slack. That's the way D&D always was.
If you are using a party, chances are you will have found plenty of level 3 spells by the time your mage is level 5. The real problem is when you are soloing. It's not that mages are useless when soloing IWD; it's just that it can feel unsatisfying to not be able to cast spells at a high spell level for a while, when the real fun of soloing is that you get to be high level early (plus if you are soloing you don't have a party to pick up the slack, as you put it).
Comments
What was game breaking back then may not be game breaking now, and what is game breaking now may not have been game breaking back then. Remember how much of the game has changed, when you factor in new kits etc.
Sure, it will affect difficulty. Is that necessarily a problem? Right now, the mage class is short changed. They are next to useless in the early part of the game - whereas sorcerers are not.
Its like, you can play any class you want - just avoid mage.
TeamBG Scroll Pack for IWDEE?
Especially in the early game it is extremely rare to be able to affort to buy a weapon. So, unless a scroll would also cost tens of thousands of gp, instead of a few thousand top, I see nothing wrong with them being unavailable for sale.
They also could have handled spells like the magic weapons, that is, have the scrolls just be crazy expensive. That would actually be more like most PnP I've played (10K or so for a 3rd level scroll).
But either way I like the result, it makes IWD a more restrained setting where resource management is a bigger issue, for longer in the game, than it is in BG.
I understand they are less dominating than in some games, but they remain useful and capable in IWD. Fardragon mentioned above going without a mage. I've occasionally used a bard instead of a mage in IWD, and I now have a party going that uses a Sorcerer instead of a Mage. Those are all viable options that alter the feel and balance of the world.
It's no different than if you chose a Druid instead of a cleric. Balance, mood and feel can all vary based on the setting, and the party decisions we make.
Someday, you'll grow up and pwn everything but for now, don't carry around any catnip on your personage.
It's not about making the game easier or not (since you can go with a sorcerer).. it's about opening up the option of enjoying your class to its full extent.
If the spells are added to a store or added as loot is beside the point - a well designed game shouldn't remove the joy of a certain class, especially not in an RPG since a part of the fun is too see your character grow.
The player plays in a world that the GM designed. If you don't like the world, don't play in it.
I LIKE the slower amassing of magic in this game. Of course I love BG too. But I think it's good to have a different balance and feel for the two games.
I remember several campaigns where it was a BIG DEAL to acquire new spells. Many DMs would require players to research every spell themselves, and it might take weeks or months, with your character out of action just to add a new spell to their book. These were typically worlds where all magic was hoarded carefully; no spell or weapon or anything magical would ever be "for sale". You had to use what you found, or spend a fortune making your own.
If Mages were allowed to pick one new spell on getting access to a new tier of magic I think it'd go a long way to offsetting the issue without making scrolls available. "Man, if I didn't get to pick a new spell every time I got a new level of spells I'd be in real trouble!"
My DM allowed me to research spells, but just not "Name" spells like Tensers or Bigby's. Those I had to find. But we did have many an adventure start out with "And there is rumor of an ancient wizard's spell book somewhere in those tombs". All in all, maybe 90% of my spells were found but there were a select few that I researched. And we never purchased them (with coin).
I actually liked that because you didn't just 'Pick' what spells you wanted. You learned what spells were available. With the way NWN handled things such that you picked from the available list every level, I just felt that coddled the players far to much. But that is merely an opinion.
Balance is more interesting when it's a little alop...
I'm not saying that mages and sorcerers should be exactly as good as each other, but rather that it shouldn't feel like one is just better than the other. Each class should have many advantages that make them unique from any other class, even if these advantages don't end up creating a perfect balance. I feel like Icewind Dale altogether did a pretty good job at this; there are just some cases where it could've done better, that's all.
Does that mean people sticking with single class Mages are screwed? Sure. But provided they know spell scrolls are limited, then it's their own damn fault for using a single class Mage despite that.
Does that mean people sticking with single class Mages are screwed? Sure. But provided they know spell scrolls are limited, then it's their own damn fault for using a single class Mage despite that.
I WANT to have fun with pure mages. Don't you? Even if they obviously aren't nearly as good as multiclassed mages, I don't want them to FEEL inferior. I want them to have quirks that multiclassed mages don't. That is what can make a class fun to play, even if it is worse than another class.
I mean, do you think they put single class mages in the game just to screw over people who didn't realize that multiclasses are better?
We can also compare BG to IWD the same way. They have different feels, different paths to success, etc. Flooding the game with scrolls would wreck Icewind Dale, on the other hand making magic a little more available to wizards wouldn't be bad.
Something Like:
Starting at Spell Level Two, wizards may select one additional new spell for their new level.
Generalist Wizards may select any spell of the given spell level.
Specialist Wizards must select a spell from their favored school.
Wild Mages are assigned a spell randomly. Alternately they are given a group of spells randomly determined and may choose out of one of them. IE "Here's three spells, pick one." The spells should be determined, if possible, randomly when the character is rolled so you can't just reload and get a different one. Muahahaha~
I admit that it is a small inconvenience that you can't find 3rd level spells in abundance by the time you reach 5th level. I don't think it in any way BREAKS the game. You have a PARTY. Where one member is slightly inconvenienced, the rest pick up the slack. That's the way D&D always was.