Having the ability to cast stuff like, say, Clairvoyance and Hold Person is not going to make the Vale of Shadows a cakewalk. This is not about "gimme more magic power to make the game easier!" rather it's about preventing that annoyance when the player is told by the game that he can do something that he actually can't.
imagine that you've read philosophy for some time in your small town library and your level of philosopher has increased from 1 to 4. you can now read and comprehend more advanced primary sources such as heidegger.
but your library doesn't have those works, it just has some relatively less advanced and more popular books.
icewind dale is the small town.
it's not like you're in amn which has famous centres of magic study (let's compare it to california), you're in alaska.
so you see, it's a part of the setting, the theme and it shouldn't really be altered. it's a part of the game's soul.
And as such, the resident Mage is not going to part with his higher level scrolls eagerly, as they'll be difficult for him to replace. Especially with the passes to the south blocked each year in the winter. The area is very isolated, and people are going to be more tight-fisted with their more valuable items. Which would also explain the high prices for any magical gear that's available. It would be a major undertaking to head down to Baldur's Gate, or further, in order to replace them.
And as such, the resident Mage is not going to part with his higher level scrolls eagerly, as they'll be difficult for him to replace. Especially with the passes to the south blocked each year in the winter. The area is very isolated, and people are going to be more tight-fisted with their more valuable items. Which would also explain the high prices for any magical gear that's available. It would be a major undertaking to head down to Baldur's Gate, or further, in order to replace them. If someone really considers it an issue, then just use a Sorcerer instead.
The game wants you to play multiclass Mages or characters dualled to Mage so that your Mage level is a bit behind the one of a singleclass Mage, this way you won't lack scrolls.
The game wants you to play multiclass Mages or characters dualled to Mage so that your Mage level is a bit behind the one of a singleclass Mage, this way you won't lack scrolls.
i don't think so, i think the game just wants you to suffer a bit.
I would like to mention that as early as the Vale of Shadows, you can get a level 3 spell, Haste, which is one of the most overpowered spells in the game. Also, about @subtledoctor's suggestion about including weak high-level scrolls early on in the game, there was a time when I soloed non-EE IWD with a necromancer, and I remember Orrick selling a Contact Other Plane scroll after Chapter 2 started. I'm not sure if he sells that in the enhanced edition.
One suggestion I could make for future patches of IWD:EE is to make it so that a mage gets experience when he/she learns new spells (like in Baldur's Gate).
I remember Orrick selling a Contact Other Plane scroll after Chapter 2 started. I'm not sure if he sells that in the enhanced edition.
He does. Orrick's inventory gets restocked in chapters 2 and 4 and, among other things, he gets higher level scrolls.
The difference between IWD:EE and the original IWD is that the new items get added to the bottom of his store, while the old items are retained at the top. In the original game, you would completely lose access to Orrick's chapter 1 items after reaching chapter 2.
If it bothers someone enough they could just use the CLUA Console to summon in a few scrolls. If fair play compels them they can then throw away the money they would've spent buying them (throwing away items they were going to sell or rebuying a bunch of jewelry and gems and tossing them on the ground).
OP: I feel for you. However, AD&D 2E is about player -disempowerment- or selective empowerment, not empowerment (generally speaking). D&D 3E changed things to be a lot more sensical in my opinion, but for the moment, play around it. The lack of open access to Mage spells for Mages is a challenge in any 2E Infinity Engine game, except perhaps the Black Pits.
I'm amidst my first time through the game, playing Heart of Fury mode from level 1. I went Fighter/Mage/Thief to offset my need to shoot everything with magic all the time. Instead, I generally buff myself, Web or Stinking Cloud the enemies, maybe summon something, then kite and shoot away with my bow. Mage spells are still a vital part of my strategy, and Invisibility why I was able to get as far as I have, but unlike the Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dale carries an expectation of not playing a single class Mage.
Regarding items for sale, it's quite possible to get things earlier if you save every GP for a single powerful item, like the Black Bow. However, unless you have a great need to get such an expensive item ASAP like I did (because it's a [i]magic[/i] bow that attacks more quickly and accurately than a plain ol' composite longbow when I rely on bows as my main source of damage), you can get away without knowing spells of the highest levels you can cast a lot of the time.
That being said, I agree with the notion of filling holes. I bought Contact Other Plane from Orrick because it was the first level 5 spell I could find a scroll for, and I had some blank level 5 slots awaiting filling - [i]even if I never cast the spell[/i]. So, yes, having Orrick sell some generally weak spells earlier (like Contact Other Plane, Clairvoyance, Hold Person, and perhaps Confusion) would smooth over the blank spots in the psyches of the people - again, even if these spells were never cast.
I think the problem of this "issue" is caused because of the XP gain bonuses when changing the difficulty which could potentially lead a single-classed mage into outleveling the content.
I think the problem of this "issue" is caused because of the XP gain bonuses when changing the difficulty which could potentially lead a single-classed mage into outleveling the content.
Don't you only get those XP bonuses by killing enemies?
So you increase the difficulty then complain about something that makes the game more difficult?!
Excuse me? I was certainly not complaining, I even put the word issue in quotes but you conveniently ignored that.
Also, unlike BG2, increasing the difficulty actually decreases the difficulty because you vastly outlevel the content. Also, you do not "need" these higher level abilities because the original developers designed the content without having them in mind. But they also did not design the game with your character being level 22-23 with a 6 man party by the end of HoW instead of 15 or so.
But no. I am not complaining. I found the game absolutely great the way it was and I enjoyed the higher levels from the XP gain. But that the wizard is the only class that is denied its tools at lower levels, because of the XP gain, is absolutely undeniable and further widens the gap between sorcerer and wizard. (They have no reason to change it thought because they are not needed.)
At lvl 5 I had plenty of level 3 spells to choose from, like 10+, they are not hard to find as you play, in fact around time I was hitting lvl 5 I was finding haste, fireball, etc
@Amardarial A lot of the loot is random, which includes Spell Scrolls. Where you may have found Fireball someone else got a Ring of Protection or Boots of +7% Sneaking.
@Amardarial A lot of the loot is random, which includes Spell Scrolls. Where you may have found Fireball someone else got a Ring of Protection or Boots of +7% Sneaking.
I've never not found haste/fireball out of all the games I've played those two scrolls are constants. hell playing a sorcerer now, still found those two scrolls..
yeah, i'm pretty sure there are at least 2 nonrandom scrolls of both fireball and haste. there are many scroll sellers in the game actually, people seem to be unaware of this.
While it can definitely be taken too far, I'm a fan of some scroll scarcity. I think it makes things interesting, and makes finding scrolls feel like an achievement.
Now, as to mage's not being able to use their main ability... I don't agree. A 12th level mage who doesn't have 6th level spells is like a 12th level fighter without a +3 weapon. They can both do their job, but they're mildly below-par at it. In a game that has precious few mage-based magic items, higher level spells are the equivalent to better weapons. You don't always have them when you'd like to. Make do with what you have.
in iwd at least every spell level has great offensive spells.
without spells for your highest castable level you'll just be left with fewer damaging spells to cast but your effectiveness in the course of a battle won't really be diminished because level 3 spells rock.
One of the IWD features (intentional or not) I liked very much is that resources for your characters are sometimes starved (I guess it's like a famine in the case of mages). Players won't always find the perfect +1 magical weapon that fits any of their character's proficiency. But they're still forced to use them on those forsaken mummies with their fighters in reduced THAC0.
Sure, it may be unfair for the spellcasters with the need to scribe scrolls into their spellbooks, and some would say it might need better fine tuning. I say let it be a challenge!
Make do with what you have, and persevere.. or wait til a modder who shall fine tune the said aspect to suit your taste.
This can be an additional reason to go and try more divine magic instead of arcane in IWDEE, with all those excellent druidic and clerical spells.
This way you can concentrate on having one arcane mage in your party + a bard, make other casters the divine ones - you won't be disappointed by their IWDEE repertoire.
And if you have one mage and a bard, I'd say that the scrolls you find in areas are enough till Orrick start selling high-levels spell scrolls.
This was the case in vanilla too, so it is definitely not gamebreaking, considering the many happy people who finished vanilla. Changing this would actually make IWD easier on core rules, which we didn't intend. I don't even want to think about all the flame we would receive should we dare this.
The problem with this argument is that it becomes too easy to not change ANYTHING because of the possibility of upsetting players.
We want an enhanced edition - that includes design decisions like this. Lots of things could be improved in the original, and I don't think it is good enough to say, "The original did it so we aren't changing it."
You are the developers of the EEs, not Black Isle. I think you should have a little more confidence to take decisions that may be unpopular.
You took the decision to add new items to the game for warrior classes, such as katanas for kensais and bracers for monks. You added the sorcerer which bypasses the scroll restriction. Why not add some items for mages?
I would maybe agree with saying the mage who won't sell scrolls until you're higher level is sort of a clumsy mechanism. But I think the scarcity of magic drives home the bleak atmosphere of need. I could see carrying it even further with weapons and other items. It's just such a different economy than BG, experience is available in abundance, but wealth and magic less so. It feels like adventuring at the edge of the world.
This argument doesn't hold up because Conlan, a smithy in a small town in a desolate area in the north, sells godly items that cost upwards of 40000gp each. How can he afford to keep those in stock yet Orrick cannot afford to keep high level scrolls in stock?
he didn't say that they weren't willing to change it because it was the same in vanilla, he only said that since it was already in vanilla it is most likely not game breaking.
and since it's not game breaking the question of whether what good would be gained by changing it arises.
there might be positives and negatives. positives are obviously greater enjoyment of the game for some people negatives are the game will become easier
he argued that making the game easier is not an acceptable cost to this change and you should debate him on that, not on whether he's willing to change anything in the game because he already implicitly stated that he is by simply considering the merits of doing it.
Comments
but your library doesn't have those works, it just has some relatively less advanced and more popular books.
icewind dale is the small town.
it's not like you're in amn which has famous centres of magic study (let's compare it to california), you're in alaska.
so you see, it's a part of the setting, the theme and it shouldn't really be altered. it's a part of the game's soul.
Had to edit his dlg file with infinity explorer to make him update.
Mage > Blah blah lore blah blah Spell scrolls are something rare/limited/slow to acquire something in IWD
Like how Katanas have a warning
So if a player takes a Mage and don't like how they're stuck with useless spell slots early in the game then that's their fault.
One suggestion I could make for future patches of IWD:EE is to make it so that a mage gets experience when he/she learns new spells (like in Baldur's Gate).
The difference between IWD:EE and the original IWD is that the new items get added to the bottom of his store, while the old items are retained at the top. In the original game, you would completely lose access to Orrick's chapter 1 items after reaching chapter 2.
I'm amidst my first time through the game, playing Heart of Fury mode from level 1. I went Fighter/Mage/Thief to offset my need to shoot everything with magic all the time. Instead, I generally buff myself, Web or Stinking Cloud the enemies, maybe summon something, then kite and shoot away with my bow. Mage spells are still a vital part of my strategy, and Invisibility why I was able to get as far as I have, but unlike the Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dale carries an expectation of not playing a single class Mage.
Regarding items for sale, it's quite possible to get things earlier if you save every GP for a single powerful item, like the Black Bow. However, unless you have a great need to get such an expensive item ASAP like I did (because it's a [i]magic[/i] bow that attacks more quickly and accurately than a plain ol' composite longbow when I rely on bows as my main source of damage), you can get away without knowing spells of the highest levels you can cast a lot of the time.
That being said, I agree with the notion of filling holes. I bought Contact Other Plane from Orrick because it was the first level 5 spell I could find a scroll for, and I had some blank level 5 slots awaiting filling - [i]even if I never cast the spell[/i]. So, yes, having Orrick sell some generally weak spells earlier (like Contact Other Plane, Clairvoyance, Hold Person, and perhaps Confusion) would smooth over the blank spots in the psyches of the people - again, even if these spells were never cast.
Also, unlike BG2, increasing the difficulty actually decreases the difficulty because you vastly outlevel the content. Also, you do not "need" these higher level abilities because the original developers designed the content without having them in mind. But they also did not design the game with your character being level 22-23 with a 6 man party by the end of HoW instead of 15 or so.
But no. I am not complaining. I found the game absolutely great the way it was and I enjoyed the higher levels from the XP gain. But that the wizard is the only class that is denied its tools at lower levels, because of the XP gain, is absolutely undeniable and further widens the gap between sorcerer and wizard. (They have no reason to change it thought because they are not needed.)
Maybe you just missed those items as you played.
Now, as to mage's not being able to use their main ability... I don't agree. A 12th level mage who doesn't have 6th level spells is like a 12th level fighter without a +3 weapon. They can both do their job, but they're mildly below-par at it. In a game that has precious few mage-based magic items, higher level spells are the equivalent to better weapons. You don't always have them when you'd like to. Make do with what you have.
in iwd at least every spell level has great offensive spells.
without spells for your highest castable level you'll just be left with fewer damaging spells to cast but your effectiveness in the course of a battle won't really be diminished because level 3 spells rock.
Sure, it may be unfair for the spellcasters with the need to scribe scrolls into their spellbooks, and some would say it might need better fine tuning. I say let it be a challenge!
Make do with what you have, and persevere.. or wait til a modder who shall fine tune the said aspect to suit your taste.
Screw changing the rules: Sorcerers are just better anyway. ;-)
This way you can concentrate on having one arcane mage in your party + a bard, make other casters the divine ones - you won't be disappointed by their IWDEE repertoire.
And if you have one mage and a bard, I'd say that the scrolls you find in areas are enough till Orrick start selling high-levels spell scrolls.
We want an enhanced edition - that includes design decisions like this. Lots of things could be improved in the original, and I don't think it is good enough to say, "The original did it so we aren't changing it."
You are the developers of the EEs, not Black Isle. I think you should have a little more confidence to take decisions that may be unpopular.
You took the decision to add new items to the game for warrior classes, such as katanas for kensais and bracers for monks. You added the sorcerer which bypasses the scroll restriction. Why not add some items for mages? This argument doesn't hold up because Conlan, a smithy in a small town in a desolate area in the north, sells godly items that cost upwards of 40000gp each. How can he afford to keep those in stock yet Orrick cannot afford to keep high level scrolls in stock?
and since it's not game breaking the question of whether what good would be gained by changing it arises.
there might be positives and negatives.
positives are obviously greater enjoyment of the game for some people
negatives are the game will become easier
he argued that making the game easier is not an acceptable cost to this change and you should debate him on that, not on whether he's willing to change anything in the game because he already implicitly stated that he is by simply considering the merits of doing it.