The game was meant to be a party adventure. Solo is a challenge. It creates its own sort of issues. I don't think the game design ever should cater towards solo. And, that sort of diminishes the challenge aspect of it.
The game was meant to be a party adventure. Solo is a challenge. It creates its own sort of issues. I don't think the game design ever should cater towards solo. And, that sort of diminishes the challenge aspect of it.
Well, it really depends on what kinds of high-level scrolls are available early on. If I'm soloing a mage and I can summon Nishruus toward the end of Dragon's Eye, I don't think that that would break the game (especially since if you are a sorcerer instead you can cast much more powerful sixth level spells by that point anyway).
Second of all, adding more underpowered high-level scrolls early on in the game would not make the experience of a six-character party worse, it would simply make it more fun to solo as a mage. I realize that the game isn't meant to be soloed, but you can do it, so why not enrich the experience? (especially if all it requires is to place some more items somewhere)
I think that the OP got unlucky with scroll finds; at the end of chapter one, right before heading to Dragon's Eye, I had found scrolls of Ghost Armor, Haste, and Skull Trap. Not an amazingly large array by any means, but that's three level 3 spells right there, when I have a mage at level 5.
I DO think that someone should make an awesome mod which adds in tons of unique and new loot into the game's loot table. If some of that loot happens to include a new scroll or two, I wouldn't object...
I WANT to have fun with pure mages. Don't you? Even if they obviously aren't nearly as good as multiclassed mages, I don't want them to FEEL inferior. I want them to have quirks that multiclassed mages don't. That is what can make a class fun to play, even if it is worse than another class.
I'm sure there are people who want to have fun with Inquisitors and settle with how they're gimped Fighters or Paladins with nearly pointless "quirks"
And I was talking about the comparison between Mages and Sorcerers
Mages can dual/multi class, Sorcerers can't.
That in itself makes the choice between a Sorcerer and a Mage fair.
Wait, what? Oh, I assume this means that the lack of available spells early on screws them. Because the other is far from the truth. My Wizards are always ultimately THE power of the party, at least in my own mind.
My point was that Sorcerers also get those advantages but don't suffer from scroll problems.
Which is fine because Sorcerers also don't get the ability to Dual or Multi Class.
So anyone picking a pure Mage and complaining about the lack of spells have no one to blame other than themselves, unless they didn't know about how scrolls trickle in slowly in the game.
I only have a bard in my current party. You don't really need arcane magic at all.
= fail.
"We're including a class that it makes no sense to play." That's just silly.
Anyway these scarcity arguments only go so far. If this is the butt-end of the world without much magic, why are there so many long swords of action +4 lying around??
:ducks for cover:
(Man I hope *somebody* gets a chuckle outta that...)
I think there's your answer. In making the armory of +4 long swords the Mages in Ice Wind Dale used up all of the magic in Ice Wind Dale.
There are quite a few classes that "it doesn't make sense to play" if all you are interested in is "how can I make the most powerful party evah". In fact, it does make sense to play them if you want to increase the challange in a way that is far more fun than HoF mode.
The "fun" of playing a mage is the sense of real achievment you get when you find a scroll. Not that they are as scarce as some people make out, if you haven't found a selection of 3rd level spells by the time you finish the Vale of Shadows you are either incredably unlucky or aren't looting effectively.
The game was initially balanced for a 6 members party playing on normal difficulty. That's why people might consider it to be unbalanced for the lack of scrolls. But if you use 3 arcane spellcaster in one party, use less than 6 party members and change the difficulty settings so they can earn more experience and level up faster, then you are bound to reach level 6 spells while still only finding fireball or haste scrolls.
And really, when you get down to it, level 1-2 spells are some of the best in game. Chromatic Orb, Shocking Grasp (useless in BG games, but amazing in IWD - if they kept its mechanics), Shield (when you'll get to Kresselack's tomb and find yourself in front of Imbued Wights, you'll pray for this one), Armor (best for mages and bards, as it last for 8 hours and counts as leather armor).
The game was initially balanced for a 6 members party playing on normal difficulty. That's why people might consider it to be unbalanced for the lack of scrolls. But if you use 3 arcane spellcaster in one party, use less than 6 party members and change the difficulty settings so they can earn more experience and level up faster, then you are bound to reach level 6 spells while still only finding fireball or haste scrolls.
this is not a problem. a first time player will never start with a less than a 6-member party. the game was balanced to make it playable and bearable for a first-time player.
I think that the OP got unlucky with scroll finds; at the end of chapter one, right before heading to Dragon's Eye, I had found scrolls of Ghost Armor, Haste, and Skull Trap. Not an amazingly large array by any means, but that's three level 3 spells right there, when I have a mage at level 5.
Absolutely! I too found those spells in time and used them just about right.
In the Severed Hand you can find Emotion:Hopelessness, Emotion:Hope, Emotion:Courage. Add to that Confusion and Ice Storm you find in Dragon's Eye. There're enough 4-level spells. And when my wild mage got access to the 5th level while in the Severed Hand, in the next contairer or so I found Cone of Cold.
So, use those spells you have. Create tactics. Improve yourself. Don't rely only on your best options. And when you'll finally get the spells you want, you'll cherish them
Well this is interesting. I hacked my bard gave him wizard progression. Had him in a party of 4 undead hunter's and a swashbuckler... When I went to the Yeti area and went into the giant tomb on the second level I found a haste spell about the same time I gained 3rd level spells. Had it been a wizard he would have had the scroll before 5th level. So I resend my complaint.
@RedViiper , I just came here to point out the same thing. I discovered that haste scroll last night myself. There is also an invisibility scroll hiding in a very easy-to-miss place in one of the tombs.
I don't remember that haste scroll being there before, but the fact that it is now kind of renders this whole issue moot, at least for third level spells. The party mage might prefer to have a fireball, but how could anyone complain about having a haste spell?
One thing that can still be a problem, though, is spell scribing failure, since several of the best spells only have one instance in the entire game. I've got that turned off in my game via Tweaks, and "pay" for it by having my mage or bard require 18 INT and to drink potions of genius instead of selling them.
One thing that can still be a problem, though, is spell scribing failure, since several of the best spells only have one instance in the entire game. I've got that turned off in my game via Tweaks, and "pay" for it by having my mage or bard require 18 INT and to drink potions of genius instead of selling them.
While a lack of scrolls is not the problem it is being made out to be, a long established game mechanic with built in ways to avoid is simply not a problem either.
regular first timers don't go to forums for advice on how to start minmaxing their 4-member party. i've seen some of those posts too but it's an exception.
If you are using a party, chances are you will have found plenty of level 3 spells by the time your mage is level 5. The real problem is when you are soloing. It's not that mages are useless when soloing IWD; it's just that it can feel unsatisfying to not be able to cast spells at a high spell level for a while, when the real fun of soloing is that you get to be high level early (plus if you are soloing you don't have a party to pick up the slack, as you put it).
So D&D has always been designed around the party structure. While it is possible to solo, it is not the intended default state. Therefore, if you are choosing to play this way, it is best to plan around the limitations.
Also, for what it is worth, you do not encounter an abundance of 3rd level spells before you reach 5th level even with a 6 person party, at least that is my recollection of the last time I played. But again, this isn't a huge problem in my view.
I WANT to have fun with pure mages. Don't you? Even if they obviously aren't nearly as good as multiclassed mages, I don't want them to FEEL inferior. I want them to have quirks that multiclassed mages don't. That is what can make a class fun to play, even if it is worse than another class.
I mean, do you think they put single class mages in the game just to screw over people who didn't realize that multiclasses are better?
As far as I'm concerned, having to search and wait for wizard spells to learn actually made the experience of playing a wizard *more* exciting. In BG, spells are pretty much a granted thing, no more exciting than rogue skills or weapo proficiencies, you simply copy tons of spells as you roam around; they're nice, but not extraordinary. In IWD, getting a new spell is *special*. I pay much more attention to my spellbook and at the end of the playthrough, when I'm about to finish Heart of Winter on HoF difficulty and the tome is full of powerful spells, it feels like a real achievement.
The wizard isn't being denied anything, you simply aren't fully utilizing what you've been given. Do you constantly swap to every weapons that ever dropped on your warriors, every few hits? NO. That is what just filling slots is. If the spell is useless then it doesn't need to be there in the first place.
Mage spells are stupidly powerful, even lvl 1 being completely game-breaking if used effectively. They aren't nerfing mages, they're giving the other classes a chance to actually shine, unlike BG 1&2 where mages own the game from beginning to end. Instead you're forced into a situation where you have limited access to spells and need to make the best of your limited resources and can no longer rely on the conviences of travelling and living in a high magic area.
Spells are no different, and keep in mind, Icewind Dale IS a low magic region, relative to other Forgotten Realms areas (BG and BG2 both take place around medium to high magic regions respectively). You're dealing mostly with tribal societies with casters who top out at 2nd or 3rd level, barring the rare undead caster from a previous age or the occasional high level creature (which in 2nd edition you were fully expected to be capable of fighting and winning in the 2-5 level range).
The wizard isn't being denied anything, you simply aren't fully utilizing what you've been given. Do you constantly swap to every weapons that ever dropped on your warriors, every few hits? NO. That is what just filling slots is. If the spell is useless then it doesn't need to be there in the first place.
Mage spells are stupidly powerful, even lvl 1 being completely game-breaking if used effectively. They aren't nerfing mages, they're giving the other classes a chance to actually shine, unlike BG 1&2 where mages own the game from beginning to end. Instead you're forced into a situation where you have limited access to spells and need to make the best of your limited resources and can no longer rely on the conviences of travelling and living in a high magic area.
Spells are no different, and keep in mind, Icewind Dale IS a low magic region, relative to other Forgotten Realms areas (BG and BG2 both take place around medium to high magic regions respectively). You're dealing mostly with tribal societies with casters who top out at 2nd or 3rd level, barring the rare undead caster from a previous age or the occasional high level creature (which in 2nd edition you were fully expected to be capable of fighting and winning in the 2-5 level range).
That's all makes sense until you remember that there are sorcerers that don't have those disadvantages
The wizard isn't being denied anything, you simply aren't fully utilizing what you've been given. Do you constantly swap to every weapons that ever dropped on your warriors, every few hits? NO. That is what just filling slots is. If the spell is useless then it doesn't need to be there in the first place.
Mage spells are stupidly powerful, even lvl 1 being completely game-breaking if used effectively. They aren't nerfing mages, they're giving the other classes a chance to actually shine, unlike BG 1&2 where mages own the game from beginning to end. Instead you're forced into a situation where you have limited access to spells and need to make the best of your limited resources and can no longer rely on the conviences of travelling and living in a high magic area.
Spells are no different, and keep in mind, Icewind Dale IS a low magic region, relative to other Forgotten Realms areas (BG and BG2 both take place around medium to high magic regions respectively). You're dealing mostly with tribal societies with casters who top out at 2nd or 3rd level, barring the rare undead caster from a previous age or the occasional high level creature (which in 2nd edition you were fully expected to be capable of fighting and winning in the 2-5 level range).
That's all makes sense until you remember that there are sorcerers that don't have those disadvantages
IWD wasn't balanced for BG style kits. If you choose sorcerer then you know that you're choosing an enhanced class that isn't necessarily balanced for the game.
The wizard isn't being denied anything, you simply aren't fully utilizing what you've been given. Do you constantly swap to every weapons that ever dropped on your warriors, every few hits? NO. That is what just filling slots is. If the spell is useless then it doesn't need to be there in the first place.
Mage spells are stupidly powerful, even lvl 1 being completely game-breaking if used effectively. They aren't nerfing mages, they're giving the other classes a chance to actually shine, unlike BG 1&2 where mages own the game from beginning to end. Instead you're forced into a situation where you have limited access to spells and need to make the best of your limited resources and can no longer rely on the conviences of travelling and living in a high magic area.
Spells are no different, and keep in mind, Icewind Dale IS a low magic region, relative to other Forgotten Realms areas (BG and BG2 both take place around medium to high magic regions respectively). You're dealing mostly with tribal societies with casters who top out at 2nd or 3rd level, barring the rare undead caster from a previous age or the occasional high level creature (which in 2nd edition you were fully expected to be capable of fighting and winning in the 2-5 level range).
That's all makes sense until you remember that there are sorcerers that don't have those disadvantages
Sorcerers have other disadvantages. The first being the reduced number of spells they have in their repertoire. And the second, compared to mages, sorcerers are lower nukers. Mages are like semi-automatic while sorcerers are single shot rifles (one fight=one rest).
Abusing the rest system to replenish spells is a non-achievement within itself. Parties should rest when they are tired not to replenish spells thinking that Belhifet can wait a few years for the brave adventurers to clear some caves from some stinking goblins.
The wizard isn't being denied anything, you simply aren't fully utilizing what you've been given. Do you constantly swap to every weapons that ever dropped on your warriors, every few hits? NO. That is what just filling slots is. If the spell is useless then it doesn't need to be there in the first place.
Mage spells are stupidly powerful, even lvl 1 being completely game-breaking if used effectively. They aren't nerfing mages, they're giving the other classes a chance to actually shine, unlike BG 1&2 where mages own the game from beginning to end. Instead you're forced into a situation where you have limited access to spells and need to make the best of your limited resources and can no longer rely on the conviences of travelling and living in a high magic area.
Spells are no different, and keep in mind, Icewind Dale IS a low magic region, relative to other Forgotten Realms areas (BG and BG2 both take place around medium to high magic regions respectively). You're dealing mostly with tribal societies with casters who top out at 2nd or 3rd level, barring the rare undead caster from a previous age or the occasional high level creature (which in 2nd edition you were fully expected to be capable of fighting and winning in the 2-5 level range).
That's all makes sense until you remember that there are sorcerers that don't have those disadvantages
Sorcerers have other disadvantages. The first being the reduced number of spells they have in their repertoire. And the second, compared to mages, sorcerers are lower nukers. Mages are like semi-automatic while sorcerers are single shot rifles (one fight=one rest).
Abusing the rest system to replenish spells is a non-achievement within itself. Parties should rest when they are tired not to replenish spells thinking that Belhifet can wait a few years for the brave adventurers to clear some caves from some stinking goblins.
I agree completely with the first part. But most PNP DMs I know rule that a spell caster who's cast all his spells IS exhausted and ready to sleep, regardless of time of day. Although I do agree it's a bit of an exploit to sleep in the middle of a dungeon with monsters just outside your field of view. I do like the way IWD tells you in certain places, you just can't rest. But I think that could have been done more broadly.
I do like the way IWD tells you in certain places, you just can't rest. But I think that could have been done more broadly.
The amount of places where you can rest without being disturbed makes the idea of resting at inns not feasible. I'd like a feature that disables rest until healed when in wilderness.
I agree completely with the first part. But most PNP DMs I know rule that a spell caster who's cast all his spells IS exhausted and ready to sleep, regardless of time of day. Although I do agree it's a bit of an exploit to sleep in the middle of a dungeon with monsters just outside your field of view. I do like the way IWD tells you in certain places, you just can't rest. But I think that could have been done more broadly.
My DM also played this way. Spell casting is exhausting (at least in his, and my view) and should take it's toll on the caster. Now, as to if the REST of the party would want to rest, or more likely sit around and wait while a party member snoozes the day away, that becomes a separate matter.
I agree completely with the first part. But most PNP DMs I know rule that a spell caster who's cast all his spells IS exhausted and ready to sleep, regardless of time of day. Although I do agree it's a bit of an exploit to sleep in the middle of a dungeon with monsters just outside your field of view. I do like the way IWD tells you in certain places, you just can't rest. But I think that could have been done more broadly.
My DM also played this way. Spell casting is exhausting (at least in his, and my view) and should take it's toll on the caster. Now, as to if the REST of the party would want to rest, or more likely sit around and wait while a party member snoozes the day away, that becomes a separate matter.
As a DM, I certainly wouldn't stop players resting on the grounds that they whern't tired. However, if I felt that players weren't showing sufficent urgency (eg resting after every fight), the villains would advance thier plans. On one occassion, the villain scried the party's location, teleported in, Death Spelled everyone in thier sleep, then teleported away again.
When you have a live DM, those kinds of things are well within their Arsenals and a really Good DM would give you reasons to move forward. That's what I like about PnP over computer games.
Comments
Second of all, adding more underpowered high-level scrolls early on in the game would not make the experience of a six-character party worse, it would simply make it more fun to solo as a mage. I realize that the game isn't meant to be soloed, but you can do it, so why not enrich the experience? (especially if all it requires is to place some more items somewhere)
I DO think that someone should make an awesome mod which adds in tons of unique and new loot into the game's loot table. If some of that loot happens to include a new scroll or two, I wouldn't object...
And I was talking about the comparison between Mages and Sorcerers
Mages can dual/multi class, Sorcerers can't.
That in itself makes the choice between a Sorcerer and a Mage fair. My point was that Sorcerers also get those advantages but don't suffer from scroll problems.
Which is fine because Sorcerers also don't get the ability to Dual or Multi Class.
So anyone picking a pure Mage and complaining about the lack of spells have no one to blame other than themselves, unless they didn't know about how scrolls trickle in slowly in the game.
The "fun" of playing a mage is the sense of real achievment you get when you find a scroll. Not that they are as scarce as some people make out, if you haven't found a selection of 3rd level spells by the time you finish the Vale of Shadows you are either incredably unlucky or aren't looting effectively.
And really, when you get down to it, level 1-2 spells are some of the best in game. Chromatic Orb, Shocking Grasp (useless in BG games, but amazing in IWD - if they kept its mechanics), Shield (when you'll get to Kresselack's tomb and find yourself in front of Imbued Wights, you'll pray for this one), Armor (best for mages and bards, as it last for 8 hours and counts as leather armor).
a first time player will never start with a less than a 6-member party. the game was balanced to make it playable and bearable for a first-time player.
In the Severed Hand you can find Emotion:Hopelessness, Emotion:Hope, Emotion:Courage. Add to that Confusion and Ice Storm you find in Dragon's Eye. There're enough 4-level spells. And when my wild mage got access to the 5th level while in the Severed Hand, in the next contairer or so I found Cone of Cold.
So, use those spells you have. Create tactics. Improve yourself. Don't rely only on your best options. And when you'll finally get the spells you want, you'll cherish them
I don't remember that haste scroll being there before, but the fact that it is now kind of renders this whole issue moot, at least for third level spells. The party mage might prefer to have a fireball, but how could anyone complain about having a haste spell?
One thing that can still be a problem, though, is spell scribing failure, since several of the best spells only have one instance in the entire game. I've got that turned off in my game via Tweaks, and "pay" for it by having my mage or bard require 18 INT and to drink potions of genius instead of selling them.
i've seen some of those posts too but it's an exception.
Also, for what it is worth, you do not encounter an abundance of 3rd level spells before you reach 5th level even with a 6 person party, at least that is my recollection of the last time I played. But again, this isn't a huge problem in my view.
emotion courage and hope are op anyway and it's good you get them a bit later. chaos is incredibly op too and it makes sense you get it later.
Mage spells are stupidly powerful, even lvl 1 being completely game-breaking if used effectively. They aren't nerfing mages, they're giving the other classes a chance to actually shine, unlike BG 1&2 where mages own the game from beginning to end. Instead you're forced into a situation where you have limited access to spells and need to make the best of your limited resources and can no longer rely on the conviences of travelling and living in a high magic area.
Spells are no different, and keep in mind, Icewind Dale IS a low magic region, relative to other Forgotten Realms areas (BG and BG2 both take place around medium to high magic regions respectively). You're dealing mostly with tribal societies with casters who top out at 2nd or 3rd level, barring the rare undead caster from a previous age or the occasional high level creature (which in 2nd edition you were fully expected to be capable of fighting and winning in the 2-5 level range).
Mages are like semi-automatic while sorcerers are single shot rifles (one fight=one rest).
Abusing the rest system to replenish spells is a non-achievement within itself. Parties should rest when they are tired not to replenish spells thinking that Belhifet can wait a few years for the brave adventurers to clear some caves from some stinking goblins.