Overpowered, but not quite
GreenWarlock
Member Posts: 1,354
The cannon for overpowered builds is well known - ken-sage, beserker-mage, and sometimes fighter/thief duals (oh, and of course, the solo sorc). I'm looking for some of our favorite builds that don't quite elevate to the cannon, and an analysis of why this might be.
My own favorite, thanks to the EE releases, is a half-orc cleric/thief. This build assumes some time min-maxing a 90+ point roll
This character is brutal at the start of BGEE, with a 19 Str, a 19 Con, and a wisdom that will boost to 21. 19 Str just out of Candlekeep is about as powerful as it gets, Sanctuary is the ultimate assist for a thief scouting for traps, and when you get the Con book, regen on traveling between maps is a huge assist (and there is a buckler at the Friendly Arm Inn to tide you over in the meantime).
As we look to the end of the series, the Cleric/Thief earns more HLAs than any other character, as both Cleric and Thief cap xp early for level 39, pushing out over a million xp for that final level 40. As you will earn HLAs from both classes, which has low xp requirements per level, and splitting xp will never hit that level 39 cap, this leads to more HLAs than any single class, or any other multi.
Looking ahead to BG2, you will probably be wielding the favorite weapon of cheese, the flail. While some now bemoan that haste no longer stack with the max power version, we are limited to one attack/round anyway so get minimal improvement from Improved Haste, so the haste issue is greatly mitigated, while keeping the upside.
So where does the class fall down?
Ultimately, 20 Str is not THAT much better than 19 Str (unlike 19 > 18). If we are looking at taking a front liner through BGEE, we know we are grabbing a Tome that will give 19 Str, so one big half-orc bonus is mitigated around the middle of the first game.
While it is nice to look forward to the flail, combat options for the cleric/thief are surprisingly compromised. While we have the full range of cleric weapons available, we can use only two with the thief backstab - staff and club. There are not that many great clubs for this class either, which probably means running a 2-handed staff, which feels odd. Especially if we want to switch from 1H/shield to sling/shield, which with this character's beastly STR is something we actually quite like.
One minor concern is that I don't know if that Sanctuary trick carries into BG2EE, or if enemies learn to see through it. Another of the really neat cleric spells that sets you up for combat is Draw Upon Holy Might, which really gets the stat bonuses pumping. However, not only do we start with significant stats that don't need pumping, for much of the game this is a standard Bhaalspawn power, so everyone gets to play.
Which brings us to the rub of the matter. The cleric is not a spell caster of great power, like the end of game mages. Nor do they get the many attacks necessary for a front line fighter at the end of the game. While we can wear full fighter armor, that compromises our thieving, so we are probably running around in light armor anyway - this character, for all his might, is not a true front liner. So if we're not a front liner, nor a spell slinger who can take an encounter or two on their own, we are essentially just a thief who can buff a little, and can't backstab with their favorite weapons. We can't even take a thief kit. So although unmistakably potent, ultimately not the game breaker I hoped it would be.
So what are your favorite near-miss builds, and why?
My own favorite, thanks to the EE releases, is a half-orc cleric/thief. This build assumes some time min-maxing a 90+ point roll
This character is brutal at the start of BGEE, with a 19 Str, a 19 Con, and a wisdom that will boost to 21. 19 Str just out of Candlekeep is about as powerful as it gets, Sanctuary is the ultimate assist for a thief scouting for traps, and when you get the Con book, regen on traveling between maps is a huge assist (and there is a buckler at the Friendly Arm Inn to tide you over in the meantime).
As we look to the end of the series, the Cleric/Thief earns more HLAs than any other character, as both Cleric and Thief cap xp early for level 39, pushing out over a million xp for that final level 40. As you will earn HLAs from both classes, which has low xp requirements per level, and splitting xp will never hit that level 39 cap, this leads to more HLAs than any single class, or any other multi.
Looking ahead to BG2, you will probably be wielding the favorite weapon of cheese, the flail. While some now bemoan that haste no longer stack with the max power version, we are limited to one attack/round anyway so get minimal improvement from Improved Haste, so the haste issue is greatly mitigated, while keeping the upside.
So where does the class fall down?
Ultimately, 20 Str is not THAT much better than 19 Str (unlike 19 > 18). If we are looking at taking a front liner through BGEE, we know we are grabbing a Tome that will give 19 Str, so one big half-orc bonus is mitigated around the middle of the first game.
While it is nice to look forward to the flail, combat options for the cleric/thief are surprisingly compromised. While we have the full range of cleric weapons available, we can use only two with the thief backstab - staff and club. There are not that many great clubs for this class either, which probably means running a 2-handed staff, which feels odd. Especially if we want to switch from 1H/shield to sling/shield, which with this character's beastly STR is something we actually quite like.
One minor concern is that I don't know if that Sanctuary trick carries into BG2EE, or if enemies learn to see through it. Another of the really neat cleric spells that sets you up for combat is Draw Upon Holy Might, which really gets the stat bonuses pumping. However, not only do we start with significant stats that don't need pumping, for much of the game this is a standard Bhaalspawn power, so everyone gets to play.
Which brings us to the rub of the matter. The cleric is not a spell caster of great power, like the end of game mages. Nor do they get the many attacks necessary for a front line fighter at the end of the game. While we can wear full fighter armor, that compromises our thieving, so we are probably running around in light armor anyway - this character, for all his might, is not a true front liner. So if we're not a front liner, nor a spell slinger who can take an encounter or two on their own, we are essentially just a thief who can buff a little, and can't backstab with their favorite weapons. We can't even take a thief kit. So although unmistakably potent, ultimately not the game breaker I hoped it would be.
So what are your favorite near-miss builds, and why?
5
Comments
Speed weapons make all the difference.
One benefit of the dual is that you /will/ get the Cleric holy symbol, assuming you can reach close to the 8M xp cap by the end of the game. I like playing parties of 6, so it is not clear to me how likely that is.
So yes, the ultimate end-game might be more potent as the dual, but I am looking for a build that is fun and distinctive through the whole series - a common concern with multi vs. dual debates I guess.
With only 1 attack you risk wasting a round and be useless, to be fair some other classes can reach 6apr with IH but fighters still do 67% more damage and, if dispelled, they can rely on improved whirlwind.
If you want to compress roles, that's fine but I don't think thief/cleric should melee. Just let him be the ultimate party utility and give him a sling (still gets str bonus to damage). You can also use him to backstab with staves but mage/thief with mislead (+SI: divination+tenser or forgoing the tenser for polymorph self+sequencer and have 8 backstabs per round) is a better backstabber.
Swashbucklers and blades can hold themselves until +2 immune (and +3 immune with UAI and scarlet ninja to).
I found a pretty cool character, very BGEE oriented as it is one of the most powerful character you can create for the first game but his power greatly diminushes in the second game. A Berserker 7 => Druid 9. A single class Fighter can reach level 8 in BG1 with High Mastery. A single class Druid can reach level 10 in the first game, with level 5 spells.
While a Berserker dualed to Druid will have the 1/2 APR from level 7 Fighter, 2 Enrages per day, very good health points, GrandMastery when he reaches level 8 Druid and level 5 spells from Druid level 9, including Iron Skin, summoning spells and Insect spells.
Druid levels so fast and there are so many strong level 4 and 5 Druid spells. I really hope that the IWD spells get ported to the BG series to increase the effectiveness of Druids in bg2.
The other builds I am experimenting with are speciality druid dual -> fighter in BG2. Druids have a strange level curve, and hit levels 11 and 12 very early (200k and 300k xp) so you can get a lot of druid, including lvl 6 spells, without giving away too many theoretical fighter levels at the xp cap, and you can regain the dual relatively quickly for a BG2 dual. I need the BG2EE patch to land on the Mac before I can see how they play out though, 14 months and counting... (I have high hopes for the Avenger, and the Totemic Druid is a lot of fun in BG1. Not tried running the Shapeshifter yet.)
BTW, you can also get grand master in BG1 by dualing from a thief (kit), something that a straight fighter cannot do. Early duals are not late-game power gamers, but a lot of fun for the first game, and like a multi, you get to spend most of the game with both classes available.
He clearly prefaced the statement with the disclaimer that it's a confession and not expected to be a commonly held opinion. It is, however, a matter of opinion, isn't it? Especially with a kensage you have a character that is relatively weak all through BG1, is exploitable due to scroll scribing mechanics in BG2 for an early power gain but then tapers off in ToB. In contrast, fighter/mage.
In BG2, it's a very good build, but not so much better than others. And in TOB, the Kensai/Mage advantage tapers off.
It's definitely one of the best classes in BG2. But for BG1--a huge portion of the trilogy--it's probably one of the absolute worst character builds. And by the end of TOB, its special abilities don't matter. So it depends on where the Kensai/Mage is.
The Berserker/Druid is good at all stages of the trilogy, although, like all dual-classes, it loses out somewhat to multiclasses in TOB.
Throwing daggers have poor range, though they do get an extra attack per round.
One purchased in a shop in Nashkel Carnival.
One dropped by Karoug.
a third one... can't remember where it came from.
One of them is different. It has no charge number and I think you can use it once a day (but I'm not sure).