The Shield Amulet is nice, but it's no full plate. Furthermore, the kensai has no magical ranged options until 3/4ths of the way through the main plot, and the inability to use gauntlets or bracers means the kensai can't use the Gauntlets of Weapon Specialization, which are almost as strong as the kensai's combat bonuses at the BG1 level cap. So the kensai trades good ranged weapon use and a decent chunk of AC for a whopping +1 to hit and a couple Kiais. Pretty hard to argue for compared to, say, the berserker, which can wear full plate, use bows, and rage.
Honestly, even in BG2/TOB I find the kensai->mage vs. berserker->mage comparison to swing heavily in the berserker's favor. The kensai gets a couple more plusses to hit (although again, Gauntlets of Weapon Specialization serve to even the playing field somewhat), but the berserker's rage immunities are extremely powerful in BG2. I just have trouble seeing the advantages of the kensai, here.
Strictly speaking? I can't think of anything a mage can't eventually become immune to. But saving spell lots and prep time, not to mention getting a lot of those immunities from level 1, seems to me to be worth a lot more than, what, +3 to hit and +2 damage after Gauntlets of Weapon Specialization are taken into account (and of course rage also gives +2/+2)?
The Kensai/Mage needs multiple Spell Immunity spells to cover everything. That either means you're casting two or more SI spells, or if you need only one for a particular battle, you have to know in advance which one you need. So the Berserker effectively gets an extra one or two 5th-level spells, depending on the situation. An extra casting of Sunfire, Cloudkill, or Animate Dead is nothing to sneeze at.
And let us not forget the Kensai's inability to use shields, which can do a lot to cut down on enemy attacks. Unless the enemy hits automatically (and very few do, even in TOB), or the enemy only hits on a critical (very rare in the late game), a single extra point of AC can decrease weapon damage by 5% to 50%. The enemy could go from hitting 95% of the time to 90%, which isn't much, or 10% to 5%, which is huge. AC is underrated among BG2 vets, in my opinion.
Still, one of the Kensai's weaknesses--poor ranged ability--also applies to Berserkers, at least to some extent.
Kensai Mages also suffer from the substantially lower THAC0 in ToB and can't use the uber-gauntlets, both hurt a ton. Obviously they can tenser, but then you lose casting, and by ToB you are probably better off just using your mage abilities.
Personal experience, even a 13 kensai DC isn't going to hit some tough enemies consistently, but neither will the Berserker dual in ToB. Lack of warrior HLAs is just the icing imho, you're much less effective in melee than a fighter, though you should be at least as resilient, if not more.
imho, Berserker is immensely easier in BG1, and rage continues to be handy into ToB, but the Kensai has an edge vs some enemies in SoA for sure. Its not a coincidence that the Kensage build was thought up pre ToB! In ToB, both builds are best played by concentrating mostly on casting, keeping melee as a versatility option to deal with certain situations.
I've thought about a high level solo Assassin (UAI and x7 backstabs) to Cleric... would be a real challenge getting back the Assassin abilities, but you could backstab incredibly well with buffs. Using scrolls and wands is a big buff, and your slow cleric spells would benefit from Vecna's Robe. Iron Golem form would give some pretty funny 'backpunches', but it might strain credulity. Just a bit, being a 15ft tall iron giant weighing several tons and sneaking. You could also dual wield speed weapons vs mooks and most enemies, Cleric buffs would easily make that brutal. Ultimately, not a real powergamey build, more a fun fairly strong build. With RR offering 3 pip potential for TWF, that wouldnt be a terrible DWer late game.
A non-legal build I have wondered about is a Kensai\Druid multi... mostly for shapeshifting mayhem. Belm would be handy too though, for non-Elemental fighting. Not legal though. Whirlwind with Earth Elemental form with Kensai boni? Youch!
Poor ranged for a Berserker can be offset by throwing daggers early though, can't it? Specialization gives you 2.5 apr out of Candlekeep, and with good str, you're dealing 13-16 per dagger Raged with gauntlets. Fighters get lots of proficiencies anyways. An Archer might top that, as could a Barbarian, but its a ton of firepower to throw around pretty early.
I think the struggle of dualing an Assassin/Cleric at epic levels would be more trouble than the 7x backstabs would be worth. A multiclass Thief/Cleric would likely be the better option for the large majority of the game, particularly since it has so many more thief HLAs. The multiclass still gets a 5x backstab multiplier, and the Assassin's +1 to damage is rather minor when we're talking about epic levels. The Poison Weapon ability would be an important factor, but there's so much time during which an Assassin/Cleric dual at epic levels couldn't use it.
Cleric/Thieves are marvelous backstabbers, though. With Holy Power, they can get much better hit chances when backstabbing than single-classed thieves, and Righteous Magic can ensure an optimal damage roll. They also make superb tanks at epic levels: the Defender of Easthaven and Jansen Adventurewear add up to a base 45% physical damage resistance, and that's just two Armor of Faith spells away from near-invulnerability to melee enemies. Although it's a hard choice between the Jansen Adventurewear and the Human Flesh.
Part of the fun imho would be the downtime actually, trying to find ways to make a low level cleric solo survive in SoA. The +1 gets x7 on backstabs remember, so its not quite nothing later. But agreed, its more or a challenge build with a late game pay out. Heck, for awhile you might even use the Gate spell, something I never have bothered with.
Poison Weapon would work with Energy Blades, right? O:)
Poison Weapon works with all weapons. Energy Blades will indeed let you poison a target 9 times in one round. It should even work with Fire Seeds, which would have a slight area effect. Or am I thinking of Sol's Searing Orb?
Shame the EE games don't let you use NPC gear. I have always been fond of loopholes and ways to circumvent rules.
While very far from bad, the kensage is not the ultimate powergaming build trilogy-wise, especially with no-reload in mind (if you do reload, all these min-max discussions have not much sense anyway)
The berserker/mage is better IMO: - berserkers are much better than kensai in BG1 before the dualling (thanks to rage + armor) - once the dual is complete they are much better, especially against mages. - offensively, the kensai advantage is not really significant, especially in case of a level 7 dual.
Anyway, both class do not really compete with a fighter/illusionnist multi in terms of powergaming - he has much better save - his spellscasting is almost as good thanks to being a specialist - his fighting capacities are much stronger - he has no downtime (but downtime can be one of the selling point of the dual)
I think Kensais get more love because the damage bonuses are a more obvious benefit. Extra damage and better THAC0 are more conspicuous than Berserker immunities.
Illusionists lose out on Vampiric Touch, which grants a huge bonus to max HP that lasts for 50 rounds and provides an excellent buffer for when things go wrong. At base, the bonus is around the 30s on average, but due to a quirk, the bonus can get doubled or even tripled, or in rare cases quadrupled. My Cleric of Lathander/Mage has gone from 103 to 233 HP with that spell, though usually the bonus is smaller.
An elven Fighter/Mage is also an excellent alternative. You don't get quite the same saves as a gnomish Fighter/Illusionist, but the elf makes a better archer in BG1, and in BG2, it will have a little more wiggle room when it comes to sources of surprise damage.
Still, gnomes are seriously overpowered in all of the Infinity Engine games, especially IWD. I have Jan and Nalia together in my install, and for much of the game, he had about as many spells per level as Nalia did, simply because of his specialization. He is rather fragile, though, compared to the rest of the party, who tend to have about twice as much HP as he does, even though none of them are fighters.
Multi-classes are generally stronger than dual-classes for most of the game. They don't have quite the late-game potential as dual-classes, but you have much more flexibility and therefore safety at high levels in SoA and ToB. People have found ways around the downtime of dual-classes, but multiclasses in general are safer builds, particularly when you're playing solo and there's no one to cover you.
Berserker rage is a mini godmode and his fighting capabilities with rage and gloves comes very close to a kensai as well. So I will choose a berserker over a kensai.
Illusionist/Fighter is really solid after you get either a bit of gear (IE a certain ring in BG1, maybe a couple scrolls), probably surpassing a even a BG1 Berserker, as his saves will quickly make him immune to many things a berserker uses his rage for, and has significantly more versatility from spells. He has no downtime in BG2, though planning can largely mitigate downtime even for a 13 dual, since a mage with lvl 5 spells is hardly going to be dead weight. But still, NO downtime is probably a bit better. Save vs spells will be excellent during BG1, likely very much in the negatives in BG2, and by ToB, combining the joys of fighter HLAs, full THAC0 progression, great HP supply (he can't use Vampiric Touch after getting Slayer, but he probably has 19 cons) and his specialist bonus spells mean you'll barely notice the slower progression as soon as you hit 9th lvl spells. Shapeshifting is much more entertaining when you can just use GWW and Critical Strike (via Imp Alacrity) with that Iron Golem form imo, but @semiticgod might disagree.
Gnomes are totally overpowered. @Anduin needs a nerfing!
As for using Improved Alacrity to combine GWW and Critical Strike... I am deeply fond of the Iron Golem form, and that base 4d10 damage at 24 STR is brutal, despite the form's low base APR. But what's really overpowered is using Improved Alacrity and Shapechange to cast Psionic Blast incessantly in Mind Flayer form. With the Amulet of Power at least, you can repeatedly shapechange into a Mind Flayer to get extra castings of Psionic Blast, then send them all out at once. On the one time I bothered to count, that trick allowed me to cast 60 Psionic Blasts long before Improved Alacrity ran out. Psionic Blast bypasses spell level immunities, spell school immunities, spell protections, and has an area effect, to boot.
After throwing out a couple dozen Psionic Blasts, you can switch back to Iron Golem form and activate GWW and Critical Strike as you like.
And if you use that Improved Alacrity to cast Hardiness twice in Iron Golem form as well, you'll be immune to all damage besides poison.
Or just turn into a Greater Wolfwere, I guess, and let your regeneration protect you from everything. Shapechange is very versatile.
Oh, and one credit to the gnomish Fighter/Illusionist, relative to the elven Fighter/Mage: the gnome gets two 9th levels spells much earlier than the Fighter/Mage, and can therefore combine IA and Shapechange long before the elf can get it.
...do I need to remind people this thread is about not QUITE optimal but quite good/solid builds... If you rock an overpowered gnome, at least stick to silly RPish uses of Shapechange, like making a 4 ft tall gnome go HulkMode and turn those mocking his height into jelly. Besides, eating too many brains can cause indigestion in gnomes.
Come to think of it, there is probably a Tactics mod that makes Kallah cast Shapechange to become an Iron Golem after mocking his height. If there is not, there bloody well should be.
Come to think of it, there is probably a Tactics mod that makes Kallah cast Shapechange to become an Iron Golem after mocking his height. If there is not, there bloody well should be.
Thanks for the idea :D Actually, I am not going to implement it, but it's a nice joke.
@DreadKhan: Okey-dokey. A not quite optimal build would be a Conjurer dual-classed to cleric at level 7. I did that for an insane solo poverty run of SoA and it worked all right, but it wasn't nearly as effective as a Sorceror would have been.
Another cool build is Cleric (chose your favorite kit) dual classed to Mage at level 9 or more. You spend the worse part of the game for a Mage as a Cleric instead, providing some very useful early divine casting and a good armor. Then at the start of BG2 you become a very powerful character by becoming a Mage, enjoy
Thanks - I currently have a cleric going through BG, planning to dual to a mage in BG2, but have not yet picked which level to dual at. Clerics are great in BG1 with all the bonus wisdom that is available to boost you primary stat to godly levels, so I suspect I want to cast at least 5th level spells. It is tempting to hold out for 14th and 7th level spells, but then you will spend so long regaining levels, it is a real question if it is worth it compared to a cleric/mage multi, or even a gnomish cleric/illusionist for the extra mage spells.
Dualing at 9th brings 6th level spells and full hit dice, and takes almost nothing away from the top end of mage levling with the xp. Mages are also relatively quick gaining levels in that range, hitting 11th faster than a cleric hits 10th. Actually, looking at the xp chart, taking a cleric to 10th, vs. 9th, as no bearing on the final mage level that can be reached within xp cap, but I think we need 11th to gain a second use of the major ability from the kits? That probably speaks to dual at 9th for the most fun, and at 11th for a handy power boost (also 6th level spells) the defers regaining cleric to mid-SoA. Shame that we can't dual Druid to Mage...
@bengoshi is currently no-reloading a solo Totemic Druid through the trilogy (with SCS installed). @OlvynChuru managed to turn a Jester into the Sword Coast's true Lord of Murder. I no-reloaded a solo SCS Wizard Slayer into ToB a few months ago (the only reason her run ended was because I lost interest and my concentration, not because the character wasn't powerful enough); and I've also set my mind on completing the trilogy on no-reload with a solo Bounty Hunter because I've decided it's my favorite kit.
Totemic Druid, Jester, Wizard Slayer, Bounty Hunter... These aren't the powerhouses of the Baldur's Gate class/kit system but they have their perks and if you just give these and other less popular classes a chance, you'll be surprised at their potential. So in other words, I think most of the non-obvious classes and kits (preferably played as single class characters) can turn out to be 'overpowered but not quite'. I've come to appreciate single-class characters a lot more as they're less versatile than duals and multis, forcing one to be creative, to find new solutions and to make the most out of their (limited) options.
For builds that I've found good but not top-of-the-line, fighter/druids (dual or multi) are awesome. Archers are amazing in BG1, but fall off heavily in BG2. I've theorycrafted a fighter->swashbuckler dual that seems insanely strong, but it doesn't work with EE (or Tutu) since you can't dual class into kits (in the original game you could, if you dualed before BG2). Could easily be EEKeepered in, though, and it's borderline fair since it was legal in vanilla.
Comments
Honestly, even in BG2/TOB I find the kensai->mage vs. berserker->mage comparison to swing heavily in the berserker's favor. The kensai gets a couple more plusses to hit (although again, Gauntlets of Weapon Specialization serve to even the playing field somewhat), but the berserker's rage immunities are extremely powerful in BG2. I just have trouble seeing the advantages of the kensai, here.
And let us not forget the Kensai's inability to use shields, which can do a lot to cut down on enemy attacks. Unless the enemy hits automatically (and very few do, even in TOB), or the enemy only hits on a critical (very rare in the late game), a single extra point of AC can decrease weapon damage by 5% to 50%. The enemy could go from hitting 95% of the time to 90%, which isn't much, or 10% to 5%, which is huge. AC is underrated among BG2 vets, in my opinion.
Still, one of the Kensai's weaknesses--poor ranged ability--also applies to Berserkers, at least to some extent.
Personal experience, even a 13 kensai DC isn't going to hit some tough enemies consistently, but neither will the Berserker dual in ToB. Lack of warrior HLAs is just the icing imho, you're much less effective in melee than a fighter, though you should be at least as resilient, if not more.
imho, Berserker is immensely easier in BG1, and rage continues to be handy into ToB, but the Kensai has an edge vs some enemies in SoA for sure. Its not a coincidence that the Kensage build was thought up pre ToB! In ToB, both builds are best played by concentrating mostly on casting, keeping melee as a versatility option to deal with certain situations.
I've thought about a high level solo Assassin (UAI and x7 backstabs) to Cleric... would be a real challenge getting back the Assassin abilities, but you could backstab incredibly well with buffs. Using scrolls and wands is a big buff, and your slow cleric spells would benefit from Vecna's Robe. Iron Golem form would give some pretty funny 'backpunches', but it might strain credulity. Just a bit, being a 15ft tall iron giant weighing several tons and sneaking. You could also dual wield speed weapons vs mooks and most enemies, Cleric buffs would easily make that brutal. Ultimately, not a real powergamey build, more a fun fairly strong build. With RR offering 3 pip potential for TWF, that wouldnt be a terrible DWer late game.
A non-legal build I have wondered about is a Kensai\Druid multi... mostly for shapeshifting mayhem. Belm would be handy too though, for non-Elemental fighting. Not legal though. Whirlwind with Earth Elemental form with Kensai boni? Youch!
Poor ranged for a Berserker can be offset by throwing daggers early though, can't it? Specialization gives you 2.5 apr out of Candlekeep, and with good str, you're dealing 13-16 per dagger Raged with gauntlets. Fighters get lots of proficiencies anyways. An Archer might top that, as could a Barbarian, but its a ton of firepower to throw around pretty early.
Cleric/Thieves are marvelous backstabbers, though. With Holy Power, they can get much better hit chances when backstabbing than single-classed thieves, and Righteous Magic can ensure an optimal damage roll. They also make superb tanks at epic levels: the Defender of Easthaven and Jansen Adventurewear add up to a base 45% physical damage resistance, and that's just two Armor of Faith spells away from near-invulnerability to melee enemies. Although it's a hard choice between the Jansen Adventurewear and the Human Flesh.
Poison Weapon would work with Energy Blades, right? O:)
Shame the EE games don't let you use NPC gear. I have always been fond of loopholes and ways to circumvent rules.
The berserker/mage is better IMO:
- berserkers are much better than kensai in BG1 before the dualling (thanks to rage + armor)
- once the dual is complete they are much better, especially against mages.
- offensively, the kensai advantage is not really significant, especially in case of a level 7 dual.
Anyway, both class do not really compete with a fighter/illusionnist multi in terms of powergaming
- he has much better save
- his spellscasting is almost as good thanks to being a specialist
- his fighting capacities are much stronger
- he has no downtime (but downtime can be one of the selling point of the dual)
Illusionists lose out on Vampiric Touch, which grants a huge bonus to max HP that lasts for 50 rounds and provides an excellent buffer for when things go wrong. At base, the bonus is around the 30s on average, but due to a quirk, the bonus can get doubled or even tripled, or in rare cases quadrupled. My Cleric of Lathander/Mage has gone from 103 to 233 HP with that spell, though usually the bonus is smaller.
An elven Fighter/Mage is also an excellent alternative. You don't get quite the same saves as a gnomish Fighter/Illusionist, but the elf makes a better archer in BG1, and in BG2, it will have a little more wiggle room when it comes to sources of surprise damage.
Still, gnomes are seriously overpowered in all of the Infinity Engine games, especially IWD. I have Jan and Nalia together in my install, and for much of the game, he had about as many spells per level as Nalia did, simply because of his specialization. He is rather fragile, though, compared to the rest of the party, who tend to have about twice as much HP as he does, even though none of them are fighters.
Multi-classes are generally stronger than dual-classes for most of the game. They don't have quite the late-game potential as dual-classes, but you have much more flexibility and therefore safety at high levels in SoA and ToB. People have found ways around the downtime of dual-classes, but multiclasses in general are safer builds, particularly when you're playing solo and there's no one to cover you.
Is it weird that I play a bard solo? All that singing really seems wasted without a party.
Gnomes are totally overpowered.
As for using Improved Alacrity to combine GWW and Critical Strike... I am deeply fond of the Iron Golem form, and that base 4d10 damage at 24 STR is brutal, despite the form's low base APR. But what's really overpowered is using Improved Alacrity and Shapechange to cast Psionic Blast incessantly in Mind Flayer form. With the Amulet of Power at least, you can repeatedly shapechange into a Mind Flayer to get extra castings of Psionic Blast, then send them all out at once. On the one time I bothered to count, that trick allowed me to cast 60 Psionic Blasts long before Improved Alacrity ran out. Psionic Blast bypasses spell level immunities, spell school immunities, spell protections, and has an area effect, to boot.
After throwing out a couple dozen Psionic Blasts, you can switch back to Iron Golem form and activate GWW and Critical Strike as you like.
And if you use that Improved Alacrity to cast Hardiness twice in Iron Golem form as well, you'll be immune to all damage besides poison.
Or just turn into a Greater Wolfwere, I guess, and let your regeneration protect you from everything. Shapechange is very versatile.
Oh, and one credit to the gnomish Fighter/Illusionist, relative to the elven Fighter/Mage: the gnome gets two 9th levels spells much earlier than the Fighter/Mage, and can therefore combine IA and Shapechange long before the elf can get it.
Just not kingdoms.
So overpowered that you don't even need to use the dirtiest tricks to make the game a cakewalk.
Shapechange is indeed a great spell, especially combined with timestop for easy brain eating.
Come to think of it, there is probably a Tactics mod that makes Kallah cast Shapechange to become an Iron Golem after mocking his height. If there is not, there bloody well should be.
Actually, I am not going to implement it, but it's a nice joke.
Dualing at 9th brings 6th level spells and full hit dice, and takes almost nothing away from the top end of mage levling with the xp. Mages are also relatively quick gaining levels in that range, hitting 11th faster than a cleric hits 10th. Actually, looking at the xp chart, taking a cleric to 10th, vs. 9th, as no bearing on the final mage level that can be reached within xp cap, but I think we need 11th to gain a second use of the major ability from the kits? That probably speaks to dual at 9th for the most fun, and at 11th for a handy power boost (also 6th level spells) the defers regaining cleric to mid-SoA. Shame that we can't dual Druid to Mage...
Totemic Druid, Jester, Wizard Slayer, Bounty Hunter... These aren't the powerhouses of the Baldur's Gate class/kit system but they have their perks and if you just give these and other less popular classes a chance, you'll be surprised at their potential. So in other words, I think most of the non-obvious classes and kits (preferably played as single class characters) can turn out to be 'overpowered but not quite'. I've come to appreciate single-class characters a lot more as they're less versatile than duals and multis, forcing one to be creative, to find new solutions and to make the most out of their (limited) options.