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Whats your best powergaming party for this game?

I want a party between 4 and 6 members. It should be very strong from the beginning and late into HoF mode.
Which classes,Kits,Multiclasses and stat distribution would you suggest me?
Please just tell me the best party you ever made for this game!

If someone can suggest me the best sorcerer spell list, that would be great too!

tia, Sloty
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Comments

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Berserker Cleric
    Berserker Mage or FMT
    Berserker Druid
    Archer or Swashbuckler Fighter
    Sorc
    Skald

    Berserker because ranged weapons are great, low risk early on. Archer because there's enough ammunition in this game for one dedicated bow user, the Swashbuckler Fighter mainly uses bows as well.

    Grease

    Web
    Stinking Cloud

    Invisibility 10' Radius
    Skull Trap
    Remove/Dispel Magic
    Protection from Fire

    Emotion Courage
    Emotion Hope

    Cloudkill
    Protection from Acid

    Death Fog
    Improved Haste
    Protection from Magical Energy

    Project Image
    Mass Invisibility
    Acid Storm

    Incendiary Cloud
    Wilting

    Wish
    Meteor Storm
    Post edited by Zyzzogeton on
    God
  • SlotySloty Member Posts: 113
    Okay but I dont want that much dual classing I think its cheating...
    I really want the Skald, Sorcerer and an Avenger.
    Which classes/races would you take for the rest of the party?
    Is a single class cleric strong enough(with kit perhaps) or should I take a fighter/cleric?
    Only class I would dual would be a kensai/thief. At which level would you dual to thief with him?
  • AerichAerich Member Posts: 148
    @Sloty, I have to point out the fundamental irony of asking for a powergaming party and then indicating that you believe that much dual-classing is cheating. ;) Dual classing is one of the best ways to powergame. With that said, let's help you out in accordance with your new parameters of wanting Skald, Sorc, and Avenger.

    As a comment on Zyzzogeton's party, that is what I would consider to be a powergamer's party, down to the non-inclusion of a thief if you go with an Archer. If you have not played through IWD before, however, I would strongly recommend that you use a thief for finding and removing traps.

    I would highly recommend a dc cleric (from fighter or berzerker), but if you can't bring yourself to that, take a multiclass dwarf or orc.

    I am not in favour of a kensai/thief. At higher levels (HoF mode), any melee character requires spell buffs, preferably self-buffs, for best survivability. A thief does not get those. So a kensai/thief build will be too fragile to be an optimal frontliner, but will not have any ranged capability to fall back on. It's a bad build, in my eyes. All of my fighter/thief types have a priority for ranged combat. A mc fighter/thief (orc, gnome, halfling, elf are all acceptable) is my preferred way to go, if you don't want a triple class F/M/T, so that thieving skills are available at all points of the game - because traps irritate me.

    So in addition to Skald, Sorceror, and Avenger, I would take:
    1) dc or mc Fighter (or Berzerker)/Cleric
    2) mc Fighter/Thief
    3) Fighter/Mage of some description

    I do also recommend a F/D multi or dual as opposed to the single class Avenger. Your single classes will max out in a HoF game and not be able to progress further. Also, additional APR, whether melee or ranged, gain significant benefits from having a Skald in the party.
  • SlotySloty Member Posts: 113
    edited May 2015
    So you think they will all reach level 30 in all classes EVEN if they have 3 classes?
    Do you think there are enough spell scrolls for a skald AND another mage character(be it F/M or whatever)?
    But I dont understand why a f/t multiclass is better than a kensai/thief if I want to use him as a frontliner?
    Only because of the measly ac that you get from leather armor? A K/T could have grandmastery in one weapon plus be good in dual-wielding and also get some ac boost from the druid with barkskin?
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    edited May 2015
    Sloty said:


    It should be very strong from the beginning and late into HoF mode.

    What does that mean? ... Do you want to start HoF with level 1 characters ... or play the game at lower difficulty, export higher level characters and import them for a HoF playthrough?
    Sloty said:


    I really want the Skald, Sorcerer and an Avenger.

    That's what I've done recently for an experimental playthrough at insane: Skald, Avenger, Dragon Disciple

    The Avenger's arcane spells are nice to have. Another early Web ... but later on this extra arcane power felt a bit superfluous due to the Skald being able to help with arcane magic, too, and the druid would focus on his unique spells. Early on I needed a druid also for the healing ... to wait for a dual-class Berserker->Cleric.
    Sloty said:


    Which classes/races would you take for the rest of the party?

    Classes and races alone won't help you much. Spell choices perhaps, ... but more helpful would be to play the game till end a first time and learn what spells and tactics may work for you also against much stronger enemies. The changes introduced by HoF are drastic.
    Sloty said:


    Is a single class cleric strong enough(with kit perhaps) or should I take a fighter/cleric?

    Strong enough for what? A dual-class warrior priest gives access to weapons grand mastery ... regardless of whether the warrior becomes a priest at level 2 or later. Level 3 is a safe choice for gaining experience with a dual-class Fi/Cl.
    Sloty said:


    Only class I would dual would be a kensai/thief. At which level would you dual to thief with him?

    Decide yourself how to Find Traps and whether to Disarm Traps during the game. You need a plan. :wink:
    Sloty said:


    Do you think there are enough spell scrolls for a skald AND another mage character(be it F/M or whatever)?

    Yes, in my point of view. Don't forget the various shopping options.
    Sloty said:


    But I dont understand why a f/t multiclass is better than a kensai/thief if I want to use him as a frontliner?

    At HoF mode, the "front" is very dangerous for either a kensai/thief or a f/t.
  • SlotySloty Member Posts: 113
    What does that mean? ... Do you want to start HoF with level 1 characters ... or play the game at lower difficulty, export higher level characters and import them for a HoF playthrough?

    I want to import some leveled chars for hof.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    You get around 13m XP per character in one HoF playthrough. So no you don't max out a triple class.

    All my dual class suggestions can be replaced with the appropriate multi class.

    Skalds don't need to learn spells. If if matters, the Fighter/Mage dual/multi gets all the self buff spells first while the Skald gets everything else.

    If you're importing I'd just go with filling slots with 1 Skald + FMC's and maybe an FMT. Since you could just have one FMC learn every Arcane spell then just copy paste that character multiple times.

    Also the Sorcerer can carry nearly any party through HoF. I had one carry an Inquisitor, Beastmaster, Monk, Assassin, Blade team. So if you're just looking for something to fill up the resr of your party, it doesn't matter since you have a Sorc. Just include a Thief in there somewhere.
  • AerichAerich Member Posts: 148
    There are plenty of spell scrolls available for even three arcane casters, you just need to have some role definition for your characters, such as what Zyzzogeton suggested. I have successfully played a party with a F/Ill mc, M/Cl mc, and F/M dc.

    You don't "need" to have a single classed cleric. I find that the increased damage output from a dc or mc F/Cl more than offsets the slower spell progression. Also, note that a dc will at times have a higher cleric level than a mc with the same experience. I would never take a single classed cleric unless doing a single playthrough on Core difficulty. For HoF you want warrior levels to help you pound through, and also to suck up more of the experience you will get so your character maxes out later.
  • SlotySloty Member Posts: 113
    Which do you think are the best weaponproficiencies in this game to take?
  • AerichAerich Member Posts: 148
    There are plenty of good weapons, notably long swords and flails, but you can eventually find a +4 weapon of almost any type. I think it depends on playing style. I like to have one tank using a shield (may eventually be a dual wielder), a secondary tank for damage, and others available to chip in when necessary. An often overlooked benefit is the "threat range" or whatever it's called, of the weapon. It's very useful for a slightly fragile melee character to have a weapon with a longer range (spear, two handed sword, fists, halberd, even staff) so it can attack in melee after the enemies have targeted tanks/summons without much risk of being targeted itself.
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Sloty said:

    Which do you think are the best weaponproficiencies in this game to take?

    There are lots of weapons to be found, ... many are dropped randomly. So beware!

    Axes or Long Swords is a safe choice for a fighter. Enough good weapons to be found there. Warhammers or Flails as blunt weapons.

    Two-handed swords (with two-handed weapons skill) is safer than waiting to find a random two-handed halberd or axe. There's a good spear, too, which is not a random find. A +4 two-handed axe is a safe find, too.

    If you want to dual-wield weapons, those that give an extra attack per round are randomly dropped. In my last game I've not found a single one of those. My Thief 3->Fighter was at longbow+++++ already and then proceeded to scimitars+++++ instead of spending two points on dual-wielding. Without the extra attack from an offhand weapon I found it uninteresting to go dual-wielding.
  • SlotySloty Member Posts: 113
    Which do you think are the best races for F/C and F/T?
  • AerichAerich Member Posts: 148
    F/C - dwarf, orc
    F/T - gnome, halfling, elf, orc
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Only Monks have increased range when fighting unarmed.

    Also Halflings make inferior F/T's 17 STR means then can't use Composite Longbows early on. Their Slings deal less damage without Exceptional Strength. Dwarves make better picks if you want shorty saves. Yes less DEX but you'll get to 100 Find Trap and Pick Pocket really quickly anyway.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I would second a swashbuckler dual out, thief won't need all that many levels. If you dual only once, Thief is the one. Any pure kitted thief is fine too actually, but a multi thief will feel wasted after awhile I fear.

    Cool tip btw, if all your 'warrior' types have the same alignment, Righteous Wrath is a terrific spell. Especially if you aren't at 5 apr with everyone, ie a warrior with a shield to help tank, your cleric, rogues, etc.

    If you want a sturdy tank, a Dwarven Defender (or a Half-orc Barbarian even) that uses a shield that boosts damage reduction. You will be incredibly durable, and the game has tenacious AI that should swarm him primarily if he's out front. There is even additional gear to boost your DR, weapons and the odd item.

    CT is fine as a halfer mostly, since clerics can buff str really, really easily, but you will be finished spending points awful quick. Gnome is a nice happy medium, though HO will hit harder early on, the gnome and halfer especially have boosted saves, which is helpful. The big pain is gear iirc, CT have crummy weapon choices if they want to backstab. There is a really decent club in HoW, but that is a ways off... until then, BS will be nerfed. Note, a gnome or halfer can use an awesome helm from pretty early, enough to make them a superb off tank if they switch to heavy armour.

    Halfers as FT have one decent benefit, a certain helm. However, a dualed to fighter thief will be MUCH more powerful, as long as he can use decent gear. 17 str is a pain I agree, especially in a game where boosting str isn't easy. You'd be reliant on the mage Strength spell, and you'll have crazy pickpocket ranks after maxing everything else! Honestly, a Swasbuckler pure is probably a better fighter late game, provided you give him speed weapons; which has an opportunity cost of course. Go Halforc for the Swash if you do that, 19 str is awesome for him.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Best party:
    Skald -- Crossbow
    FMT -- Longsword, Longbow, Katana
    FMC -- Flail, Sling, Hammer
    Berserker 7 -> Cleric -- Flail, Sling, Mace
    Kensei 9 -> Druid -- Scimitar, Club
    Kensei 9 -> Mage -- Axe, Bastard Sword

    Played on HoF from level 1.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    ...just remembered halflings can't be CTs. :neutral:
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    How exactly will three Fighter Mages work? They'll need to split up the protection spells.

    Kensais will be fairly pointless the Prologue, which is pretty much one of the toughest portions of a HoF game.
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    Gnome Fighter/Thiefs = win. Exceptional Strength, 18 Dex, shorty saves, good thief skill bonuses and get to use *that* helmet
    thespace
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058

    How exactly will three Fighter Mages work? They'll need to split up the protection spells.

    Kensais will be fairly pointless the Prologue, which is pretty much one of the toughest portions of a HoF game.

    The 4 arcanes in this setup have generally distinct roles.

    The Skald should spend a vast majority of his time singing and only weigh in with a spell occasionally. Primary spells for him are dispel and remove magic and any other situational spells that are only needed in emergencies or short cast time spells which can be cast without interrupting the song.

    The FMC is the best tank and best user of metamagics courtesy of the combination of arcane and divine spells so is a natural candidate for stoneskin and other defensive spells.

    The FMT is the highest damage dealer once Mislead is available. Until then can focus on stealth tactics and ranged combat.

    The Kensei 9-> Mage becomes the primary Mage eventually and gets first pick of spells. Stoneskin and other defensive spells are a given.

    Remember too that the FMT and FMC will probably be heavy armour users for quite a while to give a solid front line and in this way are directly comparable to various FT and FC builds but trade very minor bonuses like +saves for actual Mage spells, how can being short compete with that?

    Kensei's are pretty useless in the prologue but are fine as kite bait while the rest of the party uses ranged weapons. Importantly, once past the prologue kensei contributes so much in terms of raw damage to cut through the many fights of IWD.

    I can see the value of an Archer in a perfect party but honestly I can see that I'd give up any of the 6 characters for it but I am mildly biased towards melee combat. In terms of damage output an archer really doesn't compare to the 25 strength divine monsters or the backstabbing FMT or the usefulness of a high level Mage and Druid caster.

    I don't see the value of Sorcerer. It's really not needed and everyone should contribute significant damage towards destroying trash.
    FinneousPJ
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Because level/2 d4 damage per round to every melee enemy isn't significant damage? Plus the 5 damage per attack it contributes during the period Emotion Hope and Courage isn't available.

    You don't start off HoF doing melee. Especially in a party where all the spellcasters progress incredibly slow except for the Skald. The time this party is finally kicking in is when everry party is already breezing through the game. So sacrifice the early game where most of the challenge of HoF lies to pump up the endgame where nearly no enemy can withstand a party that's accumulated a ton of equipment, spells and levels?

    Archers speed up that initial portion of the game while the Fighter spellcasters are still collecting their armor and spells. And they don't lag behind so far in the endgame.

    Also I'm not sure how a Fighter with Cleric protection still needs Stone Skin. Armor of Faith and the numerous damage resistance gear make it already practically unkillable unless you lack damage output. Which your party shouldn't by the endgame. Plus it can regen ridiculous amounts of HP per round. I mean really, Stone Skin? Slow down the progression of Cleric spells for unnecessary protection?

    Powergaming isn't about getting max DPS at the end of the game it's about the whole game. Especially in one where the early game is notably harder than most of the end game save for a few fights.
    semiticgoddess
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058

    Because level/2 d4 damage per round to every melee enemy isn't significant damage? Plus the 5 damage per attack it contributes during the period Emotion Hope and Courage isn't available.

    You don't start off HoF doing melee. Especially in a party where all the spellcasters progress incredibly slow except for the Skald. The time this party is finally kicking in is when everry party is already breezing through the game. So sacrifice the early game where most of the challenge of HoF lies to pump up the endgame where nearly no enemy can withstand a party that's accumulated a ton of equipment, spells and levels?

    Archers speed up that initial portion of the game while the Fighter spellcasters are still collecting their armor and spells. And they don't lag behind so far in the endgame.

    Also I'm not sure how a Fighter with Cleric protection still needs Stone Skin. Armor of Faith and the numerous damage resistance gear make it already practically unkillable unless you lack damage output. Which your party shouldn't by the endgame. Plus it can regen ridiculous amounts of HP per round. I mean really, Stone Skin? Slow down the progression of Cleric spells for unnecessary protection?

    Powergaming isn't about getting max DPS at the end of the game it's about the whole game. Especially in one where the early game is notably harder than most of the end game save for a few fights.

    Indeed. The max damage at end game route is generally 5 fighter dual classes with GM and a Skald (though technically even the Skald lags behind in this setup compared to another dual). However, that is a very tedious path with a less than satisfying outcome.

    Therefore, the "best" party that I could offer seems to strike a balance between the amazingly overpowered GM in IWD and the demands of the early game.

    Fact is, kensei casters with ironskins or stoneskins are literally the bomb and will decimate the game from the moment their dual is complete which is very quickly for the Druid dual. On the other hand the Kensei/Mage is the final inclusion of the 6 and could be traded for an Archer or a Sorcerer but then there would no one to use the Axe of the Minotaur Lord or that sick bastard sword which would be a real shame. Furthermore, if Archer was the choice there would be no easy path to timely 9th level Mage spells unless the party was restructured. The FMT could be traded for a longsword of action wielding swashbuckler but the Mislead cheese is just too good to give up.

    Let's break it down a little more. In the ideal party there will be 2 warrior clerics wielding a Fast Flail and a stunning weapon each for the absolute carnage that they offer. There will be a Skald for damage and AC. The last 3 slots are open to debate.

    There is an entire thread on Druid already but it is auto include for me for the wonderful bag of tricks including water elemental form and spike stones, when these aren't needed Ironskins and kensei damage keep contributions high.

    Thief is another debateable one but I just can't do a dungeon crawl without a thief, it wouldn't feel right. The two best options IMO are Swashbuckler 10 -> Mage and FMT and having played bother in HoF I can definitely say that the FMT is my favourite.

    The final slot for me is the Kensei/Mage and honestly the Axe of the Minotaur is enough. Not having a character in the party designed to use this item is such a wasted opportunity for brutality.

    Low level the party is fine with 4 ranged characters and 2 baiters though with 3 characters able to wear heavy armour and the bonus AC from Skald by the Vale of Shadows the party can transition to melee tactics in most situations (before that the berserker can still tank with rage).
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Kensais only offer +3 damage. That's relatively miniscule compared to how they're incredibly stunted early game. And how exactly will the Skald be singing, and the Kensais luring enemies (which I'm confused how they're going to avoid getting turned into pincushions by Goblin and Orc Archers) and still have 4 people using ranged weapons.

    How does an Archer remove the other slots that you can put a Fighter Mage in?

    Also enemies in the early game can kill a character with -4AC and Sword and Shield even with 2 Webs slowing them down.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857

    Kensais only offer +3 damage. That's relatively miniscule compared to how they're incredibly stunted early game. And how exactly will the Skald be singing, and the Kensais luring enemies (which I'm confused how they're going to avoid getting turned into pincushions by Goblin and Orc Archers) and still have 4 people using ranged weapons.

    How does an Archer remove the other slots that you can put a Fighter Mage in?

    Also enemies in the early game can kill a character with -4AC and Sword and Shield even with 2 Webs slowing them down.

    Whats are their saves??

    Heck, drop 4 Webs then. Unless something is immune, it'll be snagged. First level characters are incredibly squishy in early HoF mode, and Berserker offers almost as much firepower as a kensai will ever have from first level, is way tougher, and can wear armour. 1 Kensai I can see, but 2 might be a bit much to survive.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    I'm talking about a tank with a Ring of Free Action.

    But a Dwarven Fighter Cleric with 19 CON does up dying anyway in the last part of chapter one since only Stinking Cloud works on the Veerbogs.
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    edited May 2015


    Berserker Cleric
    Berserker Mage or FMT
    Berserker Druid
    Archer or Swashbuckler Fighter
    Sorc
    Skald

    None of those can supply the party with healing during the prologue ... and not even later unless you dual-class either the Cleric or the Druid very early. There is not enough gold to buy healing potions.

    How do you play such a party with HoF enabled? With "Heal on Rest" turned on? Or running away endlessly? Not starting at level 1?
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Merina There's no disadvantage to rest until healed.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    One of the Berserkers in full armor and Shield, with 2 pips in Sword and Shield can tank the huge archer group in the Orc Cave with full Web support and the potions that can be stolen from Everard. After that every group is small enough. Ogre group only has a few archers which are killed first then just have the armored Berserker run around baiting whatever's left after the Sorc runs out of Grease and Web.

    After that just head straight to Kuldahar, do quests and kill the Shades/Yetis in the valley until the Berserker Cleric (dual at 7) gains Animate dead. Then go back to the pass to clean it up.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303

    @Merina There's no disadvantage to rest until healed.

    Nobody asked whether there would be a disadvantage.

    With no healer in the party, there's only the normal regeneration when resting. It would be necessary to click the Rest button many times to "heal" the party ... to undo any damage from a lucky shot by an enemy archer.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Last I checked Rest Until Healed only requires one click.
    FinneousPJSkatan
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