hat about Fighter/Druid multi-class do you not understand?
The part where the other Fighters still need to be "bodyguards" instead of being able to hit any enemy without waiting for them walk to the edge of Spike Growth's AoE and ignore all the summons.
A sling ... haha. Funny.
Oh you mean the weapon that deals nearly as much damage as a War Hammer early game? Not sure what's funny about that, especially since a Sling doesn't wait until the enemy is at the edge of Spike Growth or Cloudkill while melee weapons are stuck at the edge of those AoE's.
A Kensai cannot use ranged weapons and isn't interested in them as a future Battle Mage.
So the problem is the Kensai. Exactly how is this power gaming?
The Berserker doesn't waste a pip on slings.
And what exactly goes to waste here? They still get GM at the same level in the weapon they choose with a pip in slings.
And who will tidy up all that mess afterwards?
What mess? Spike Growth + Bows and Slings will easily kill every enemy group
So in short a party that's composed of classes picked for non powergaming reasons or inefficient powergaming reasons.
Your replies are getting too repetitive again. Must be related to enjoying running in circles. Many of the questions have been answered ... beaten to death. Above all, it is not you who decides how powergaming is defined or how exactly to do powergaming in IWDEE.
I won't return to this forum today. Have fun!
I will, ... but with IWDEE instead. And IWD2 is waiting for me to return for some more experiments, too.
Answered how? So far most of the answers revolve around personal preference which is not a powergaming reason.
One big issue is your preference to sacrifice long term efficiency through most of the game to make the early game a little bit easier.
Kensei 9 dual is a no brainer for at least two characters for that permanent +3 damage compared to the +2, -2 bonus that the berserker will likely have over not many fights. The kensei AC bonus matters as well as it makes it that much easier to get to the crucial -15 value.
While AoE DoTS are great in certain situations they require a lot of micromanagement to keep enemies in the AoE. This micromanagement leads to a reduction in efficiency as you pause and move characters around and it also requires significant scouting or meta knowledge to know where to set the kill zones which leads to further reductions in efficiency.
Overall the most efficient system has been shown again and again to be one where every character can contribute high amounts of consistent, non-micromanaged, sustainable damage with good defenses to steam roll entire maps without having to rest and rebuff. Simply put a sorcerer does not fit into that paradigm as it hurts party DPS and Skald DPS too much for it to be viable and is just another example of making small amounts of the early game easier while sacrificing efficiency for the larger part of the game.
The single point that I am happy to concede is that an archer is a valuable addition to a party though I choose to exclude it from mine due to the difficulty of micromanaging the ammo on iOS among other reasons.
Kensei 9 dual is a no brainer for at least two characters for that permanent +3 damage compared to the +2, -2 bonus that the berserker will likely have over not many fights. The kensei AC bonus matters as well as it makes it that much easier to get to the crucial -15 value.
You're overestimating how far +3 damage goes. Especially when we're talking about endgame Fighters with all the buffs on them.
It'll probably amount to enemies getting hit one more time. Which Fighters with 10 APR have no trouble doing.
So what few seconds you're saving in the late game is at the leasteasily matched by the seconds saved in the early game.
While AoE DoTS are great in certain situations they require a lot of micromanagement to keep enemies in the AoE. This micromanagement leads to a reduction in efficiency as you pause and move characters around and it also requires significant scouting or meta knowledge to know where to set the kill zones which leads to further reductions in efficiency.
Hilarious.
Nearly every battle in IWD where I used Incendiary Cloud in the late game pretty much amounts to characters walking around, finding enemies then the Sorcerer's Image casting the Cloud right ontop of those characters. That is the extent of "micromanagement" going on. Which anyone with basic mouse skills can accomplish easily.
But feel free to actually provide an example of when the game doesn't throw you these "certain situations" Because the last time you described these "certain situations" you pegged them as times when the game throws a bunch of enemies at you that are easy to lure. Which accounts for nearly every battle in HoF.
Overall the most efficient system has been shown again and again to be one where every character can contribute high amounts of consistent, non-micromanaged, sustainable damage with good defenses to steam roll entire maps without having to rest and rebuff.
I'm still waiting on that data I've asked you on regarding casting Improved Haste on a party of 5 Fighters and being able to keep that up for a long time without resting.
I get the feeling you're running on the assumption every Mage comes with a full spellbook. This isn't BG.
Kensei 9 dual is a no brainer for at least two characters for that permanent +3 damage compared to the +2, -2 bonus that the berserker will likely have over not many fights. The kensei AC bonus matters as well as it makes it that much easier to get to the crucial -15 value.
You're overestimating how far +3 damage goes. Especially when we're talking about endgame Fighters with all the buffs on them.
It'll probably amount to enemies getting hit one more time. Which Fighters with 10 APR have no trouble doing.
So what few seconds you're saving in the late game is at the leasteasily matched by the seconds saved in the early game.
While AoE DoTS are great in certain situations they require a lot of micromanagement to keep enemies in the AoE. This micromanagement leads to a reduction in efficiency as you pause and move characters around and it also requires significant scouting or meta knowledge to know where to set the kill zones which leads to further reductions in efficiency.
Hilarious.
Nearly every battle in IWD where I used Incendiary Cloud in the late game pretty much amounts to characters walking around, finding enemies then the Sorcerer's Image casting the Cloud right ontop of those characters. That is the extent of "micromanagement" going on. Which anyone with basic mouse skills can accomplish easily.
But feel free to actually provide an example of when the game doesn't throw you these "certain situations" Because the last time you described these "certain situations" you pegged them as times when the game throws a bunch of enemies at you that are easy to lure. Which accounts for nearly every battle in HoF.
Overall the most efficient system has been shown again and again to be one where every character can contribute high amounts of consistent, non-micromanaged, sustainable damage with good defenses to steam roll entire maps without having to rest and rebuff.
I'm still waiting on that data I've asked you on regarding casting Improved Haste on a party of 5 Fighters and being able to keep that up for a long time without resting.
I get the feeling you're running on the assumption every Mage comes with a full spellbook. This isn't BG.
That +3 damage will be a ~+10% bonus for most of the game and will give more bonus damage than Skald song for quite a while which we both agree is a monumental buff. In a lot of ways the kensei bonuses are analogous with the skald songs between the AC, thac0 and damage bonuses once the lack of armour becomes irrelevant via equipment, spirit armour or barkskin. Another way of looking at is that the +3 damage equates to more damage than what Incendiary cloud does to one enemy.
Sorcerer damage output is only significant when enough enemies are rounded up. Lacking that even the decent damage of incendiary cloud becomes piddly compared to what a kensage can put out. At a minimum you need to be able to hit 10 enemies for close to the entire duration of the spell to even break even. And you have to do this for every encounter. Otherwise, as I suspect is the case, your sorcerer doesn't actually have the damage output that you claim and the additional time that you're spending laying down those clouds is hurting your efficiency more than helping it.
IH is quite easy to maintain by about the time that you get a single scroll of IH and one of PI. Simply have the image cast IH on everyone and then go on a massive killing spree. Initially this won't cover everyone but it won't take long before it does and in the meantime there are strategies to get everyone on juice if a particular fight demands it.
IWDee isn't IWD either, once you get access to HoW there is enough spells to give everyone spell choices and many more to come once some quests are completed.
Most of the game? Chapter 1 is out. And it'll just clash with Druids in Chapter 2 where Spike Growth is extremely effective
So it'll only start kicking in in Chapter 3
Skald bonuses don't prohibit characters from using bows or slings when stuff like Spike Growth is the best source of damage.
Sorcerer damage output is only significant when enough enemies are rounded up
You mean how most battles in HoF are?
At a minimum you need to be able to hit 10 enemies for close to the entire duration of the spell to even break even.
Discounting how effective Cloudkill is in Chapter 2. Or how as early as the second half of Chapter 1, Sorcerers can already start putting Emotion Buffs on the party.
IH is quite easy to maintain by about the time that you get a single scroll of IH and one of PI. Simply have the image cast IH on everyone and then go on a massive killing spree. Initially this won't cover everyone but it won't take long before it does and in the meantime there are strategies to get everyone on juice if a particular fight demands it.
Feel free to actually provide the locations of those scrolls and compare those to how early a Sorcerer gets these two spells.
IWDee isn't IWD either, once you get access to HoW there is enough spells to give everyone spell choices and many more to come once some quests are completed.
Oh you mean the area infested by a bunch of enemies where stuff like Acid Fog and Spike Growth are extremely effective since you're going there ASAP while the Fighter spellcasters are still reactivating their dual classes and don't have the weapons (like the Defender Morningstars) from endgame IWD.
So even a player that goes into HoW early still benefits from a Sorcerer or even a Berserker with a Bow over a Kensai that's pretty much underpowered the whole way until the end when it finally gets its spells. And for the equivalent of taking 1 less hit to kill enemies at the expense of being detrimental (Spike Growth) or dead weight (again Spike Growth) in the early game where enemies actually pose more of a threat.
And speaking of that
One big issue is your preference to sacrifice long term efficiency through most of the game to make the early game a little bit easier.
You mean my preference of the part of the game where Fighter heavy parties have trouble with compared to the parts of the game where everything is just on autopilot? Gosh, imagine that, my idea of powergaming is about focusing on the part of the game where a party wipe is feasible unless the party slows itself down instead of the part of the game where a person just needs to move their characters from area to area and not really care what happens.
Also I still see no concrete data. Feel free to list the location of IH and PI scrolls. Or for that matter, battles where enemies aren't rounded up easily
Most of the game? Chapter 1 is out. And it'll just clash with Druids in Chapter 2 where Spike Growth is extremely effective
So it'll only start kicking in in Chapter 3
Skald bonuses don't prohibit characters from using bows or slings when stuff like Spike Growth is the best source of damage.
Sorcerer damage output is only significant when enough enemies are rounded up
You mean how most battles in HoF are?
At a minimum you need to be able to hit 10 enemies for close to the entire duration of the spell to even break even.
Discounting how effective Cloudkill is in Chapter 2. Or how as early as the second half of Chapter 1, Sorcerers can already start putting Emotion Buffs on the party.
IH is quite easy to maintain by about the time that you get a single scroll of IH and one of PI. Simply have the image cast IH on everyone and then go on a massive killing spree. Initially this won't cover everyone but it won't take long before it does and in the meantime there are strategies to get everyone on juice if a particular fight demands it.
Feel free to actually provide the locations of those scrolls and compare those to how early a Sorcerer gets these two spells.
IWDee isn't IWD either, once you get access to HoW there is enough spells to give everyone spell choices and many more to come once some quests are completed.
Oh you mean the area infested by a bunch of enemies where stuff like Acid Fog and Spike Growth are extremely effective since you're going there ASAP while the Fighter spellcasters are still reactivating their dual classes and don't have the weapons (like the Defender Morningstars) from endgame IWD.
So even a player that goes into HoW early still benefits from a Sorcerer or even a Berserker with a Bow over a Kensai that's pretty much underpowered the whole way until the end when it finally gets its spells. And for the equivalent of taking 1 less hit to kill enemies at the expense of being detrimental (Spike Growth) or dead weight (again Spike Growth) in the early game where enemies actually pose more of a threat.
And speaking of that
One big issue is your preference to sacrifice long term efficiency through most of the game to make the early game a little bit easier.
You mean my preference of the part of the game where Fighter heavy parties have trouble with compared to the parts of the game where everything is just on autopilot? Gosh, imagine that, my idea of powergaming is about focusing on the part of the game where a party wipe is feasible unless the party slows itself down instead of the part of the game where a person just needs to move their characters from area to area and not really care what happens.
Also I still see no concrete data. Feel free to list the location of IH and PI scrolls. Or for that matter, battles where enemies aren't rounded up easily
Don't need anything fancy to finish HoW as 95% of it can be invis'd past for stupidly massive amounts of xp to then power the mages into filling exactly the roles that you find so important to have a sorcerer for.
I haven't played through IWDee for a while but isn't IH for sale in the tower and PI available around there somewhere?
As to the original topic I am contemplating the idea that a gnome illusionist/cleric could replace my FMC. Reasoning is thus: - trusted defender for +3 AC is pretty obscene - APR is taken care of via Polymorph Self - damage per hit is the same just without the +2 from specialisation - extra Mage spells per day - faster spell progression - gnome racial bonuses - strength is fine with DUHM - stats are easier to roll for - thaco is fine with holy power
However: - shocking grasp doesn't remove animal weapon afaik and not sure about alternatives - banned schools for illusion could be a deal breaker (abjuration and necromancy, anything important there?) - lower HP
The character would become a primary caster along with the Skald and be a prime candidate to PI/IH the whole party while still being able to put out consistent melee damage with Polymorph Self, sequencers and DUHM.
The main question is how to remove the animal weapon. Otherwise it seems a pretty solid idea to then make the party look something like: Skald (dagger and buckler) FMT (longsword, longbow, TWF, katana) I/C (Flail, Sling) Berserker 7/Cleric (Flail, TWF, Mace) Kensei 9/Mage (Axe, TWF, Bastard Sword) Kensei 9/Druid (Scimitar, TWF, Club)
I'm currently running the above party through with a FMC instead and just starting the vale now, moderately challenging but it's rapidly getting easier with access to web, chromatic orb and hold person (which isn't useful in the vale but it was very useful up to now).
So you don't even know when your proposed party actually gets a proper buff rotation going and yet keep babbling on and on about how 5 Fighter parties have all their buffs at some point in the game where there's still enough content left for it to matter?
Also skipping content? Well if that's the case then multiples of Sorcerer + Fighter 3/Druid party is practically the best powergaming party then. They skip most of the content, learn spells automatically. Have summons tanking and AoE everything to death. Can Time Stop to victory and finish the game (kill the Final Boss) much quicker than any party if the goal was to simply get to the end credits.
So you don't even know when your proposed party actually gets a proper buff rotation going and yet keep babbling on and on about how 5 Fighter parties have all their buffs at some point in the game where there's still enough content left for it to matter?
Also skipping content? Well if that's the case then multiples of Sorcerer + Fighter 3/Druid party is practically the best powergaming party then. They skip most of the content, learn spells automatically. Have summons tanking and AoE everything to death. Can Time Stop to victory and finish the game (kill the Final Boss) much quicker than any party if the goal was to simply get to the end credits.
Not babbling and you're being rude now. I have formed views from playing the game and I'm expressing and defending them here despite your vitriol.
I've told you where abouts I think the buffs are found based on my experience of having them in a timely manner. My issue in the past was focused more on making the correct choices of who gets what scrolls rather than the existence of the scrolls in the first place. If I'm incorrect about rough locations though please feel free to correct me. IH is sold in the tower though and it's the only scroll in the game and PI isn't far from there. I'll give it to my Skald who doesn't need the level 6 slots for anything else.
Skipping content is a viable strategy in HoW due to the massive quest rewards and very difficult content. Additionally, you can return at a later time to clear the enemies out for the challenge and xp. I wouldn't want to skip content in the rest of the game as you still need to level up.
I think power gaming (which is the topic of the thread) is about having the most powerful party - either at one certain point or averaged over the game. Speed runs could certainly be included in that conversation.
So one scroll of IH and on scroll of PI. That's only enough for 2 rotations of IH on a Fighter party on a Mage until late game. This counts as babbling because as Sorcerer will have more than enough Images and casts of Incendiary Cloud compared to a single Mage with only PI and IH.
And a Sorc can even keep up IH longer without rest as well as the rest of their spells. Something you've been criticizing the Sorcerer about over and over. It's pretty hilarious that you've been talking about Sorcerers needing to rest constantly when your party is going to run into even more trouble keeping up IH .
So yes, babbling.
Also the Skald? Seriously? Have you actually played a Bard keeping IH on an entire party of Fighters?Bards only get 3 level 7 slots after level 23 Even with a Thief XP table they simply cannot get to that level without competing a huge portion of the game. Images cannot be instantly recast so 2 slots isn't enough for 5 Fighters. You need 3 L7 slots. And it'll only work for 1 rotation since the Skald's own L7 slots will be used up.
At level 24 it'll be 2 rotations (4 L7, 4 from Image, 1 from Bard then 3 from Image and 2 from Bard) up until level 29 when finally a Bard's Image can buff without help from the Bard itself.
So yes babbling. You make ridiculous assumptions about spell availablity despite babbling on and on about how your entire party walk around with all ths buffs on them for a good portion of the game without the constant need for rest.
Also average? You know what's included in the average? The entire game. Early game included. So yes. Even by you standards powergaming you've been babbling the entire time.
Small Sorcerer and Druid parties don't need all the XP from skipped content, if you're going to introduce more ways to game the system in a powegaming discussion at least do it efficiently. The same way someone talking about 5 Fighter powergaming parties with a bunch of Arcane sub classes at least has the scroll situation properly mapped out.
I mean honestly I was expecting anyone who thinks 5 Fighters to actually walk around with minimal need for rest with IH constantly on to at least have 2 scrolls of IH and PI planned out.
Amazing ... now you're fighting even another player who is thinking about what party might be most powerful for his playing style.
As a fact, I've also been a huge fan of Imp.Hasting fighters. It just varies from time to time, and then I'm in favor of wizards again.
Oh, news from my most recent party. It's simply awesome so far within Dragon's Eye. Great arcane fire power. I don't need the fully reactivated Berserker 9->Cleric yet ... only use him (my good old 'Brother Ombas') for bringing some undead into the play. That would not be necessary. It's just that I like them for some situations where big bears move less smart through narrow caverns. And I'm going Kensai 13 this time, too.
So one scroll of IH and on scroll of PI. That's only enough for 2 rotations of IH on a Fighter party on a Mage until late game. This counts as babbling because as Sorcerer will have more than enough Images and casts of Incendiary Cloud compared to a single Mage with only PI and IH.
And a Sorc can even keep up IH longer without rest as well as the rest of their spells. Something you've been criticizing the Sorcerer about over and over. It's pretty hilarious that you've been talking about Sorcerers needing to rest constantly when your party is going to run into even more trouble keeping up IH .
So yes, babbling.
Also the Skald? Seriously? Have you actually played a Bard keeping IH on an entire party of Fighters?Bards only get 3 level 7 slots after level 23 Even with a Thief XP table they simply cannot get to that level without competing a huge portion of the game. Images cannot be instantly recast so 2 slots isn't enough for 5 Fighters. You need 3 L7 slots. And it'll only work for 1 rotation since the Skald's own L7 slots will be used up.
At level 24 it'll be 2 rotations (4 L7, 4 from Image, 1 from Bard then 3 from Image and 2 from Bard) up until level 29 when finally a Bard's Image can buff without help from the Bard itself.
So yes babbling. You make ridiculous assumptions about spell availablity despite babbling on and on about how your entire party walk around with all ths buffs on them for a good portion of the game without the constant need for rest.
Also average? You know what's included in the average? The entire game. Early game included. So yes. Even by you standards powergaming you've been babbling the entire time.
Small Sorcerer and Druid parties don't need all the XP from skipped content, if you're going to introduce more ways to game the system in a powegaming discussion at least do it efficiently. The same way someone talking about 5 Fighter powergaming parties with a bunch of Arcane sub classes at least has the scroll situation properly mapped out.
I mean honestly I was expecting anyone who thinks 5 Fighters to actually walk around with minimal need for rest with IH constantly on to at least have 2 scrolls of IH and PI planned out.
You must be so much fun at parties!
I don't babble. Really I'm just trying to humour you while helping you demonstrate to the community here just the sort of person that you are.
My first playthrough of HoF I gave IH/PI to my Swash/Mage and regretted it, I'll fix that decision this time and give it to my Skald instead. There are a number of configurations for fights possible. Sometimes it will be acceptable to only buff 4 characters with IH with the purpose of being able to refresh IH by as many times as the bard has PI (until the bard hits the 5 casts/day which arrives by the end of HoW iirc). For important fights of course everyone will have it.
Average yes, I'll help you here, when you arrive at an average you are giving equal weight to the entire population and then deciding on what's in the middle. Early game is relatively short, even with my kensei heavy party, and will be over soon as I transition into the mid game with access to summons, disablers, completed dual classes and more. Even now just at the beginning of Kress' tomb with my preference for no insane xp the xp distribution is 25/21/20/8/25 with only the FMC lagging behind with her sling in kills. It's just a simple fact that the party doesn't need a sorcerer to progress through the game efficiently and very quickly the lack of sorcerer will pay dividends in the form of increased party damage output.
I am seriously considering my above idea of a Illusionist/Cleric instead of a FMC though. In many ways the character would fill the role of Sorcerer early game but would be able to transition into outputting melee damage in later parts of the game. Shocking Grasp working differently is a pain and the next best thing would be Ghoul Touch that is banned. This leaves a friendly dispel early game or a Sequencered MMM to remove the creature weapon which is manageable for me. It also solves the bard spell slot problem that you mention above as the IC can remain in a caster role with Sequencered cleric spells and others until the bard has enough spell slots to IH everyone off the one image (except for important fights obviously).
I haven't criticised the sorcerers ability to keep buffs up on the party. What I've cruticised is your decision to have too mostly useless buff bots in your party - Skald AND sorcerer. That leaves only 4 characters to benefit from Skald song which is a deal breaker for me in terms of costs and benefits and the sorcerer is filling roles that other characters can fill while not contributing the sort of damage that is required for most of the game. Don't get me wrong, I love sorcerers and ive tried them on HoF and heaps on normal difficulty but overall including one is a decrease in efficiency when averaged over the whole game compared to the alternatives in a balanced and well managed power gaming party.
This discussion has actually been had before, I wonder where it is?
Hilarious. Okay let's do a chapter by chapter run through
Prologue, only the Sorcerer has access to Web Chapter 1, admittedly the Sorcerer's worst chapter Bards have Web here Chapter 2, only Sorcerers have Cloudkill Chapter 3, Will pick up Improved Haste later in the Chapter, will immediately be able to buff all 4 Fighters with it repeatedly (will require killing the Image to buff the last one), after 1 level will be able to buff all 4 Fighters without killing the Image. Chapter 4, Picks up Incendiary Cloud
lol useless
Let's look at the Kensai/Spellcaster
Prologue, liability Chapter 1, interferes with Spike Growth Chapter 2, interferes with Spike Growth an Cloudkill Chapter 3, still interferes with Spike Growth Chapter 4, party will be resting over and over to keep IH on this guy
Oh and IH on only 4 Fighters most of the time? Your party is practically only the equivalent of 4.5 Fighters if you only buff 4 Fighters with IH (45 APR). That's not a big improvement over a party with 4 Fighters all with IH (40 APR) And that's assuming you can push 5 APR out of all 5 Fighters with there still being considerable amount of content left.
So you've been blabbing over and over that a Sorcerer has to somehow provide the input of an entire Fighter when all the party is really losing is .5 of a Fighter.
Hilarious. Also damage required for most of the game? The only damage required for most of the game is anything that deals damage. Last I checked 1 damage from a spell is the same as 1 damage from a weapon. And unless you can come up with more scrolls of IH and PI, a Sorcerer will be able to output those spells without resting for a much longer time (and be able to keep IH on the party for a longer time) than a Skald keeping up IH on a party of 5 Fighters.
Hilarious. Okay let's do a chapter by chapter run through
Prologue, only the Sorcerer has access to Web Chapter 1, admittedly the Sorcerer's worst chapter Bards have Web here Chapter 2, only Sorcerers have Cloudkill Chapter 3, Sorcerers only have Emotion Hope and Courage. Will pick up Improved Haste later in the Chapter, will immediately be able to buff all 4 Fighters with it repeatedly (will require killing the Image to buff the last one), after 1 level will be able to buff all 4 Fighters without killing the Image. Chapter 4, Picks up Incendiary Cloud
lol useless
Let's look at the Kensai/Spellcaster
Prologue, liability Chapter 1, interferes with Spike Growth Chapter 2, interferes with Spike Growth an Cloudkill Chapter 3, still interferes with Spike Growth Chapter 4, party will be resting over and over to keep IH on this guy
Oh and IH on only 4 Fighters most of the time? Your party is practically only the equivalent of 4.5 Fighters if you only buff 4 Fighters with IH (45 APR). That's not a big improvement over a party with 4 Fighters all with IH (40 APR) And that's assuming you can push 5 APR out of all 5 Fighters with there still being considerable amount of content left.
So you've been blabbing over and over that a Sorcerer has to somehow provide the input of an entire Fighter when all the party is really losing is .5 of a Fighter.
Hilarious.
This is hilarious but let's have a look. Prologue: don't need a sorcerer when you can curse, charm, hold person, chromatic orb stun everything. Chapter 1: sorcerers worst chapter you said. Chapter 2: we have animate dead, hold person, access to new spells at orricks and as soon as we hit level 9 we can go to HoW and bulk out our spell books all the way to level 9 (funds allowing) Chapter 3: by this time we've completed our duals and are well on our way to steamrolling without the need for any silly sorcerer
In contrast: Kensage in- Prologue: high damage output and enough HP to not be 1 shotted, minimal micromanagement with the tank keeps everyone safe.
By the end of the prologue the kill distribution was 31% to the FMT followed by 26% for the first kensei, 21% for the second and finally 18% for the berserker. I've restarted with an illusionist/cleric for fun and interest to try it out as I really like sequencered cleric spells in IWD (curse, chant, prayer, recitation especially as debuffers).
Chapter 1 is even easier with Animate Dead and Web allowing the kensei's to clear trash very efficiently.
Now, with this party the cleric/illusionist will have a similar role to the sorcerer while allowing more duals (unless you run without a healer?). However, the illcler can transition to a melee damage role with Polymorph, DUHM and other buffs from about level 9 cleric and be as competitive in this role as any fighter. I'm not convinced that the illcler is a better choice than the FMC however I've played extensively with a FMC so I want to try this out (as far as power gaming parties go a two person party of FMT and FMC is pretty unstoppable in my experience).
So, in this situation your sorcerer has to be better than the illcler who is filling the role of healer, disabler, buffer, raiser, .5 fighter every fight, 1 fighter for tough fights, tank (don't forget that gnome hat) and debuffer (greater malison looks silly compared to the save penalties that this guy can put out if needed).
Certainly restating with this guy made the prologue heaps easier and very quick, I'll have to see how the rest goes but I'll be happy to report back and let you know just what's experience without a sorcerer is like. Mind you, I have done HoF with a sorcerer before but the sorc is just so useless I ditched him in favour of a kensage.
You really should look up the last HoF the head where sorc is discussed at length.
Prologue: don't need a sorcerer when you can curse, charm, hold person, chromatic orb stun everything.
Web also has the secondary effect of allowing for attacks to auto hit.
Improved efficiency
Chapter 2: we have animate dead, hold person, access to new spells at orricks and as soon as we hit level 9 we can go to HoW and bulk out our spell books all the way to level 9 (funds allowing)
None of Orrick's new spells match 10d10 AoE damage.
Also HoW? You're going to HoW with a party that's barely out of Chapter 1? Oh right skipping content. Well again if you're going to game the system by skipping content, the Sorcerer and Druid will reach the end credits faster by skipping content and still be capable of killing entire enemy groups and required fights.
Chapter 3: by this time we've completed our duals and are well on our way to steamrolling without the need for any silly sorcerer
And a party with a Sorcerer will also be completing their duals and thanks to the Sorcerer have IH on them. Which after the Sorcerer gains another level after learning IH can keep up longer without resting
So 5 Fighters vs 8 Fighters? lol
Prologue: high damage output and enough HP to not be 1 shotted, minimal micromanagement with the tank keeps everyone safe.
Bows have comparable damage output with 2 APR and don't intefere with Web.
Also kill distribution? So the Fighter with the Bow has the highest kill percentage? The weapon a Kensai can't use? Gosh imagine that.
Oh and if the player is going to go into HoW right away, that means the Sorcerer picks up IH even earlier. Spike Growth can handle most enemies there initially, then the Sorcerer eventually gets that Acid AoE spell for even faster killing.
So unless there's another IH scroll somewhere in HoW, the Sorcerer party now has a leg up with the Sorcerer learning IH waaaaaaay before a Sorcerer-less party has it.
Prologue: don't need a sorcerer when you can curse, charm, hold person, chromatic orb stun everything.
Web also has the secondary effect of allowing for attacks to auto hit.
Improved efficiency
Chapter 2: we have animate dead, hold person, access to new spells at orricks and as soon as we hit level 9 we can go to HoW and bulk out our spell books all the way to level 9 (funds allowing)
None of Orrick's new spells match 10d10 AoE damage.
Also HoW? You're going to HoW with a party that's barely out of Chapter 1? Oh right skipping content. Well again if you're going to game the system by skipping content, the Sorcerer and Druid will reach the end credits faster by skipping content and still be capable of killing entire enemy groups and required fights.
Chapter 3: by this time we've completed our duals and are well on our way to steamrolling without the need for any silly sorcerer
And a party with a Sorcerer will also be completing their duals and thanks to the Sorcerer have IH on them. Which after the Sorcerer gains another level after learning IH can keep up longer without resting
So 5 Fighters vs 8 Fighters? lol
Prologue: high damage output and enough HP to not be 1 shotted, minimal micromanagement with the tank keeps everyone safe.
Bows have comparable damage output with 2 APR and don't intefere with Web.
Also kill distribution? So the Fighter with the Bow has the highest kill percentage? The weapon a Kensai can't use? Gosh imagine that.
Oh and if the player is going to go into HoW right away, that means the Sorcerer picks up IH even earlier. Spike Growth can handle most enemies there initially, then the Sorcerer eventually gets that Acid AoE spell for even faster killing.
So unless there's another IH scroll somewhere in HoW, the Sorcerer party now has a leg up with the Sorcerer learning IH waaaaaaay before a Sorcerer-less party has it.
Yes, the ranged weapon user managed 5% more kills in the ideal situation for ranged weaponry by a very competent ranged weapon user against a melee weapon user in the least ideal situation. Imagine that (/sarcasm).
Don't forget Kai for a little burst damage to take down stunned ogres as well.
Web requires significant micromanagement until you have fom rings and you'll still need melee weapon users at the edge to hold up any that make saves.
I'd much rather a healer in the prologue over a sorcerer as curse and hold person are good enough and cures and faster animate dead are well worth it.
You don't even need to skip content to go into HoW as soon as you're able, there's tasty xp available in the town not to mention pick pocketable items and two shops with all the spell scrolls you need, no content skipping required. I'm not 100% but I think Cloudkill is available here too (negating one of your main arguments if it's the case).
No, my party will have IH just as fast as yours just with less casts per day.
Speaking of your party, what class choices did you make? FMT? Swash/fighter? 3 zerks? I'm curious because from where I sit you don't have much going for it.
Right because stationing an armored Fighter near the edge of Web then either running to the other side or switching to melee + shield is "significant micromanagement"
Are people playing this game somehow incapable of performing even simple microing tasks? Gosh I didn't know we were designing powergaming parties for people without functional arms because all of this is incredibly simple.
Also a healer in the Prologue? How exactly will a Sorcerer conflict with a healer? Last I checked when I put a Sorcerer in a party, I have no trouble getting a Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Druid, Fighter 3>Cleric or Fighter 3>Druid. Or for that matter the 2 potions of healing. Or rest until healed.
With enough layers of Web and Grease, and baiting in the worst case scenario, then resting until healed, there was no need for me to cast a healing spell in the Prologue or even bothering to use a healing potion.
No, my party will have IH just as fast as yours just with less casts per day.
Oh you mean needing to rest more? Or simply not being able to cast IH on the entire Party. Because a Sorcerer can cast IH on 4 Fighters as early as Level 14 or 15M XP
While a Bard can't even cast IH at 15M XP (Level 17) they only get it at 24M and that's only for 2 people with IH.
They need 26M XP to cast it on 5 people, and only 1 rotation per rest. 28M for 2 rotations and, 30M single Images being able to IH 4 people, 2 rotations of 5. And a whopping 40M for single Images for 5 people.
So a few million shy of twice the amount of XP a Sorcerer can keep up full rotations of IH.
Way, way, way before.
lol "less casts per day" more like less Fighters per day with IH.
So after entering HoW a Sorcerer will have the equivalent of 8 Fighters in their party as early as 15M XP. while a Sorcerer-less party will have how many at that much XP?
And how exactly do 3 Berserker/Spellcasters and a Archer with full IH far earlier and Web + Bows in the Prologue not have much going for it?
Also 5% more, obviously the Kensai has to land killing hits too.
Oh and how often did your characters miss because last I checked, when I used Web, they didn't miss at all. Even the Beetles had 5 AC. So what rolls would characters need to hit something with 5 AC early on?
Because that's certainly going to be less than a 100% hit rate.
Right because stationing an armored Fighter near the edge of Web then either running to the other side or switching to melee + shield is "significant micromanagement"
Are people playing this game somehow incapable of performing even simple microing tasks? Gosh I didn't know we were designing powergaming parties for people without functional arms because all of this is incredibly simple.
Also a healer in the Prologue? How exactly will a Sorcerer conflict with a healer? Last I checked when I put a Sorcerer in a party, I have no trouble getting a Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Druid, Fighter 3>Cleric or Fighter 3>Druid. Or for that matter the 2 potions of healing. Or rest until healed.
With enough layers of Web and Grease, and baiting in the worst case scenario, then resting until healed, there was no need for me to cast a healing spell in the Prologue or even bothering to use a healing potion.
No, my party will have IH just as fast as yours just with less casts per day.
Oh you mean needing to rest more? Or simply not being able to cast IH on the entire Party. Because a Sorcerer can cast IH on 4 Fighters as early as Level 14 or 15M XP
While a Bard can't even cast IH at 15M XP (Level 17) they only get it at 24M and that's only for 2 people with IH.
They need 26M XP to cast it on 5 people, and only 1 rotation per rest. 28M for 2 rotations and, 30M single Images being able to IH 4 people, 2 rotations of 5. And a whopping 40M for single Images for 5 people.
So a few million shy of twice the amount of XP a Sorcerer can keep up full rotations of IH.
Way, way, way before.
lol "less casts per day" more like less Fighters per day with IH.
So after entering HoW a Sorcerer will have the equivalent of 8 Fighters in their party as early as 15M XP. while a Sorcerer-less party will have how many at that much XP?
And how exactly do 3 Berserker/Spellcasters and a Archer with full IH far earlier and Web + Bows in the Prologue not have much going for it?
Also 5% more, obviously the Kensai has to land killing hits too.
Oh and how often did your characters miss because last I checked, when I used Web, they didn't miss at all. Even the Beetles had 5 AC. So what rolls would characters need to hit something with 5 AC early on?
Because that's certainly going to be less than a 100% hit rate.
You may not have realised but beetles that are eating something won't attack unless you enter melee with them. The first beetles in the cellar are taken care of by 3 ranged characters with 0 hits taken. I suppose you'd save a few seconds with an extra couple of ranged characters, the second set in Kuldahar Pass are webbed and the kensei's carve them up.
I'm not really sure what the AC values of various foes are though the 4 warriors are all pretty even and have pretty even kill values (about to enter the vale and bow guy is now second with 40 kills compared to axe girls 41 kills which says a lot about the effectiveness of kensei's). I don't notice them missing particularly often but with web and chrome stuns it's not a big deal.
With the adjustment to the party of the illcler instead of the FMC I may reassess the direction of the IH scroll. End game the Skald is the best user of it with the spell slots that he eventually gets though it does take a while as you point out (in my last play through I regretted not giving it to the Skald but it might be a different situation this time with the multi that I have).
I really don't find the prologue worth discussing anymore, the party that I posted progressed very quickly through it with very little hassle and is now on to bigger and better things. The prologue is all of about one small dungeon and a few small encounters and unless you have a hopeless party or hopeless micro skills it's going to be barely a blip on the radar of the game as a whole.
Speaking of the micro skills I really don't find your arguments regarding web as being consistent with my experience in game. Sure, if you fully prep an area with multiple webs and greases it can hold up large groups but that isn't efficient compared to laying down one web with an adequate tank and cutting down the enemies inside whether they are held or not (I save the Kai for when there is held enemies though which is super effective). If you have that tank on the edge of the web though enemies will surround the tank and drift out of the AoE which is why it isn't efficient in the prologue compared to simply holding or charming everything.
Bards can cast IH from level 16 which is 1.32m xp and get PI at 2.42m xp (along with 4 casts of IH). Only 902k xp behind a sorcerer. At least according to the official game manual.
So what was your actual party? If you put a multi or level 3 dual in then you are gimping your party even worse just to have a gimp sorcerer so I really don't understand your reasoning.
It's worth noting that at 2.42m xp when the bard gets PI that the IH on 4 party members will last for 24 rounds (for a total of 48 rounds or almost 5 minutes) compared to the sorcerer who will have to cast IH 3 times to get the same 48 rounds compared to the Bards 2 casts thanks to higher caster level.
It comes down to the basic reality that the sorcerer doesn't contribute anything that sognificantly enhances the power of the party through most of the game. Sure, the first little map in the prologue is easier but so what? Soon enough the sorcerer realised that everything he does could be done by another character and at least they can whack stuff.
What you haven't realized is that I used the beetles as an example of enemy AC.
So if beetles have 5 AC, that means the Goblins and Orcs in the cave will have around that much. What do characters in the prologue need to roll to hit 5 AC? Webbed enemies are auto hit. Kensais can use Kai all they want but that still doesn't guarantee an auto hit.
Also what's this fully prep nonsense? It's as easy as having summons walk in front of the party then when monsters see them casting Web on top of those summons. That's basic tactics.
The tank outside the AoE of web is for the prologue when there's no summons to draw everything. Did I really need to explain that? I mean honestly, that should have been obvious.
I already gave my party. Also multi? Level 3 dual classes. I only included those multis and duals classes for people who somehow still need to heal during battle in the prologue. Which isn't necessary at all.
And again, Incendiary Cloud is 20 damage to every enemy in battle. Sorcerers have more casts of those and can combine all of that with Projected Image. In a game where there are at least a half dozen enemies in every enemy group the game throws at you which most of them will gravitate towards the first character they see. Or the "certain situation" you keep talking about that Sorcerers need to utilize their AoE spells.
Oh and Sorcerers somehow need to rebuff characters more often. How is this an issue when spell slots isn't an issue for them?
it's going to be barely a blip on the radar of the game as a whole.
Unless you have hopeless micro skills or a hopeless party, 10% more damage is barely going to be a blip with 10 APR Fighters. Especially if there's someone casting an Incendiary Cloud each battle.
What you haven't realized is that I used the beetles as an example of enemy AC.
So if beetles have 5 AC, that means the Goblins and Orcs in the cave will have around that much. What do characters in the prologue need to roll to hit 5 AC? Webbed enemies are auto hit. Kensais can use Kai all they want but that still doesn't guarantee an auto hit.
Also what's this fully prep nonsense? It's as easy as having summons walk in front of the party then when monsters see them casting Web on top of those summons. That's basic tactics.
The tank outside the AoE of web is for the prologue when there's no summons to draw everything. Did I really need to explain that? I mean honestly, that should have been obvious.
I already gave my party. Also multi? Level 3 dual classes. I only included those multis and duals classes for people who somehow still need to heal during battle in the prologue. Which isn't necessary at all.
And again, Incendiary Cloud is 20 damage to every enemy in battle. Sorcerers have more casts of those and can combine all of that with Projected Image. In a game where there are at least a half dozen enemies in every enemy group the game throws at you which most of them will gravitate towards the first character they see. Or the "certain situation" you keep talking about that Sorcerers need to utilize their AoE spells.
Oh and Sorcerers somehow need to rebuff characters more often. How is this an issue when spell slots isn't an issue for them?
it's going to be barely a blip on the radar of the game as a whole.
Unless you have hopeless micro skills or a hopeless party, 10% more damage is barely going to be a blip. Especially if there's someone casting an Incendiary Cloud each battle.
20 damage per enemy is only 120 damage/round according to you and less once enemies start dropping which is a far cry from even the 200 that the Skald will do (only 160 for you as you're missing a front line combatant) and 300 to 500 for front line combatants.
So you don't have a healer and somehow think that it's an improvement in the prologue? Curse, Hold Person and Animate Dead is a very easy way to pass through the Prologue.
Just starting the vale now and I already have Animate Dead along with plenty of Web's despite not taking the cheesy insane xp bonus (which I challenge you to try).
Having a buff last 50% longer isn't an inconsequential benefit when it comes to the opportunity cost of actually casting the spells.
You didn't give your party, you included a couple of "or" situations so I'm asking what you actually go with.
Gosh? Really Animate Dead in the Prologue? How exactly will you get Animate Dead in the Prologue without a Pure Cleric or a Fighter 3>Cleric in a party of 6? Even a Cleric multiclass will get it fairly late in the Pass.
While a Fighter 7>Cleric will still get Animate Dead by simply clearing the pass and the entire Vale, before heading into individual tombs where summons actually matter.
Cutting out party members? Well if that's the case then a Sorcerer can easily get Emotion Hope and Courage in Chapter 1. Rest grinding? lol
Opportunity cost what? Is there some reason the Sorcerer can't cast IH when a battle is dwindling down and IH is about to run out?
I already gave my party, and I clarified which of the or situations I went with.
The extra few seconds you supposedly save because apparently 4 10 APR Fighters + Incendiary Cloud and 5 10 APR Fighters are worlds apart when it comes to the number of seconds it takes to finish a battle that's practically done on auto pilot automatically matter more than making one of the hardest parts of a HoF run easier.
So lowering the risk in the riskiest part of the game (because you have to be kidding me if you're trying to say there's any risk left in the later chapters apart from a few battles, the more damage doesn't make those less riskier) vs. a few seconds at best in battles that players can half doze themselves through.
Also the conditions didn't include turning off the difficulty XP option. Why keep bringing it up. It has no bearing on this particular powergaming discussion.
Gosh? Really Animate Dead in the Prologue? How exactly will you get Animate Dead in the Prologue without a Pure Cleric or a Fighter 3>Cleric in a party of 6?
Cutting out party members? Well if that's the case then a Sorcerer can easily get Emotion Hope and Courage in Chapter 1. Rest grinding? lol
Opportunity cost what? Is there some reason the Sorcerer can't cast IH when a battle is dwindling down and IH is about to run out?
I already gave my party, and I clarified which of the or situations I went with.
Right because the extra few seconds you supposedly save because apparently 4 10 APR Fighters + Incendiary Cloud and 5 10 APR Fighters are worlds apart when it comes to the number of seconds it takes to finish a battle that's practically done on auto pilot.
So lowering the risk in the riskiest part of the game (because you have to be kidding me if you're trying to say there's any risk left in the later chapters apart from a few battles, the more damage doesn't make those less riskier) vs. a few seconds at best in battles that players can half doze themselves through.
Also the conditions didn't include turning off the difficulty XP option. Why keep bringing it up. It has no bearing on this particular powergaming discussion.
Without the insane xp bonus my multi ill/cler has picked up animate dead partway through Kuldahar Pass, with double xp it would be significantly sooner. Really wasn't an issue as the other spells I mentioned were more than adequate.
I think improvements to the game that were made in v1.4 are more than relevant to this thread particularly as HoF in it's old form was too easy (probably why you felt so competent with your party). I've multiplayer duo'd most of HoF for instance and others have soloed it.
Sorry, I must have missed the clarification that you made on your Or statements amongst your many intelligent and informative posts, can you tell us again?
Seriously, the prologue and chapter 1 isn't risky or difficult with a modicum of tactics and strategy and certainly doesn't justify including an entire character just to handle it.
Before you include Incendiary Cloud going from 4 to 5 fighters could mean +25% output in damage. With Incendiary Cloud it would still be at least +15% if that 5th character doesn't just cast an Incendiary Cloud of it's own. Then add on the lost damage from no Kensei's (60 right there - that's half of your cloud by your reckoning) and whatever other suboptimal choices you made just to make the Prologue easier.
Opportunity cost, are you unfamiliar with the concept? If you're recasting Haste 1/3 more often then you're losing those actions and having to cast haste instead of do something more useful (but by that stage the sorcerer isn't very useful which I guess is the point so maybe not such a big deal?).
So no Animate Dead in the Orc Cave? You do realize that the Pass is just a repeat of situations in the Orc Cave. So what's the point of Animate Dead later on? A Fighter 7>Cleric will get Animate Dead after the pass, which is only a short time after the Fighter 7>Druid gets Spike Growth, which is when Animate Dead really starts paying off. The player already has a solution for all the stuff the pass will throw at them. There's even less stuff like Shamans to bother with.
Oh wow talking about the version of the game now? Gosh, I played this party in April. Guess there must have been a second 1.4 stealth patch released after.
Stop trying to pretend most of the late game is actually more difficult than the first few battles. Especially with a bunch of Fighter/Spellcasters.
I asked how does 3 Berserker Spellcasters and an Archer have not much going for it. Should I have spelled it out the choices I made, the context was super duper obvious.
I'm not talking about the Prologue or Chapter 1 being difficult, I'm talking about those two parts of the game being the hardest parts. Enemies in the prologue have an actual shot at killing the party if the player isn't paying attention.
Enemies in the later part of the game have nearly no shot of killing a character.
The fifth character? And does this fifth character cast Incendiary Cloud in every battle without rest? Because the Sorcerer can. Also what does another character casting Incendiary Cloud matter? Last I checked Incendiary Cloud layers.
Yes I know what opporunity cost means. I'm talking about the practical application. What does it amount to? A few seconds every few battles that amount to moving parties from one point to the other and literally just watching them kill stuff (with minimal interaction like point clicking a spot over a party member for the Sorcerer to drop an Incendiary cloud, unless you want to bring up "lol" a lot of micromanagement) then repeating the process over and over again? Hilarious.
So the Sorcerer can't drop another Incendiary Cloud when there's only 1 or 2 enemies left because they're casting Improved Haste on the Fighters. Wow that matters so much because without that 5th character contributing more damage on the round, those 1 or 2 enemies (that have already been damaged by Incendiary Cloud) will somehow take the 4 Fighters forever to kill. Oh wait they don't. That's 40 APR vs 1-2 stragglers that are already substantially damaged.
They'll drop dead insanely fast with or without the Sorcerer casting another damage spell or not.
Gosh? Really Animate Dead in the Prologue? How exactly will you get Animate Dead in the Prologue without a Pure Cleric or a Fighter 3>Cleric in a party of 6? Even a Cleric multiclass will get it fairly late in the Pass.
With my previous party-of-six, it's been 27,000 XP at entry of Kuldahar Pass. Cleric/Illu reaches levels 5/4 at 2*13,000 XP = 26,000 XP.
And 61,8xx XP after clearing Pass and Canyon. That would be Cleric 6/Illu 5 then for a second Animate Dead per day.
So no Animate Dead in the Orc Cave? You do realize that the Pass is just a repeat of situations in the Orc Cave. So what's the point of Animate Dead later on? A Fighter 7>Cleric will get Animate Dead after the pass, which is only a short time after the Fighter 7>Druid gets Spike Growth, which is when Animate Dead really starts paying off. The player already has a solution for all the stuff the pass will throw at them. There's even less stuff like Shamans to bother with.
Oh wow talking about the version of the game now? Gosh, I played this party in April. Guess there must have been a second 1.4 stealth patch released after.
Stop trying to pretend most of the late game is actually more difficult than the first few battles. Especially with a bunch of Fighter/Spellcasters.
I asked how does 3 Berserker Spellcasters and an Archer have not much going for it. Should I have spelled it out the choices I made, the context was super duper obvious.
I'm not talking about the Prologue or Chapter 1 being difficult, I'm talking about those two parts of the game being the hardest parts. Enemies in the prologue have an actual shot at killing the party if the player isn't paying attention.
Enemies in the later part of the game have nearly no shot of killing a character.
The fifth character? And does this fifth character cast Incendiary Cloud in every battle without rest? Because the Sorcerer can. Also what does another character casting Incendiary Cloud matter? Last I checked Incendiary Cloud layers.
Yes I know what opporunity cost means. I'm talking about the practical application. What does it amount to? A few seconds every few battles that amount to moving parties from one point to the other and literally just watching them kill stuff (with minimal interaction like point clicking a spot over a party member for the Sorcerer to drop an Incendiary cloud, unless you want to bring up "lol" a lot of micromanagement) then repeating the process over and over again? Hilarious.
So the Sorcerer can't drop another Incendiary Cloud when there's only 1 or 2 enemies left because they're casting Improved Haste on the Fighters. Wow that matters so much because without that 5th character contributing more damage on the round, those 1 or 2 enemies (that have already been damaged by Incendiary Cloud) will somehow take the 4 Fighters forever to kill. Oh wait they don't. That's 40 APR vs 1-2 stragglers that are already substantially damaged.
They'll drop dead insanely fast with or without the Sorcerer casting another damage spell or not.
So you opt for 0 trap disablers in a bid for efficiency and yet include a sorcerer? I just don't understand the reasoning. Prologue is not difficult or long and only needs very basic qualities to complete with ease.
Archers don't even get their full +1 damage/3 levels and they miss out on strength bonuses to damage. What's the average damage per arrow on an end game archer without using the really good ammo that is not abundant for anything but the biggest boss fights? 25 with Skald song? Even if it's 30 that still puts it at the low end for damage output.
I have to note that an archer isn't a caster so not only are you down a physical damage dealer with your sorcerer but you're also down a caster with your archer. Add on to that the missing damage from kensei and I really wouldn't be surprised if your party was at least 20% behind in damage compared to mine from the time the duals are complete until the end of the game.
Now, I'm sure you'll rationalise away the minor amount of additional hits that are required for you to finish an encounter compared to my party but 20% difference is a 20% difference overall and any small amount of additional time that I spent in the prologue will be a drop in the ocean compared to the extrapolated impact of that damage output deficiency.
I'm glad that you had fun with your party, it just doesn't seem to be the best power gaming party.
Good thing then that Archers output good damage in the mid game.
Also how is the Archer not a caster? It's got Spike Growth which is really the only offensive Druid spell worth casting. Armor of Faith, Iron Skin (which it has) and the regen buff are irrelevant for a character that stays in missile range.
Also 20% difference overall? Wow so your party deals 20% more damage at the start of the game... oh wait it doesn't. How about in chapter 1... wait nope.
Prologue is not difficult or long and only needs very basic qualities to complete with ease.
And the mid end game is even less difficult and picking and casting the correct buffs is even a simpler task.
I just don't understand the reasoning.
Cloudkill, early Emotion Buffs, etc.
Archers don't even get their full +1 damage/3 levels and they miss out on strength bonuses to damage.
Doesn't interfere with Spike Growth in Chapter 1. Doesn't interfere with Spike Growth and Cloudkill afterwards.
Now, I'm sure you'll rationalise away the minor amount of additional hits
Just as you rationalize the time it takes for a Kensai/Mage to get to 10 APR is nonexistent. Or somehow try to imply that, save for a few battles, the mid and end game aren't even more mindless than the early game.
But hey dealing the most damage in the part of the game where everything is just move characters, watch characters kill stuff is fun. Making the easier part of the game even easier at the cost of the part with some actual chance at triggering a game over isn't powergaming.
Beating the Orc Cave means a party with the same tactics can beat the pass.
"can" is not the only mission objective ... especially not if great risk is involved. The "tactics" you seem to like are inefficient and tedious ... and are not applicable to all environments (such as running around a web area to lure enemies into changing direction, too).
So, clearly one doesn't want to apply such "tactics" often.
Not forgetting that a single Sorcerer can only cast a few Grease/Web.
News from my modified party: Dragon's Eye cleared 10 days earlier than the previous party ... which very likely is because several times I've not rested between multiple encounters. The Dragon Disciple and the Sorcerer rule the show.
Comments
So the problem is the Kensai. Exactly how is this power gaming? And what exactly goes to waste here? They still get GM at the same level in the weapon they choose with a pip in slings. What mess? Spike Growth + Bows and Slings will easily kill every enemy group
So in short a party that's composed of classes picked for non powergaming reasons or inefficient powergaming reasons.
How is this powergaming again?
I won't return to this forum today. Have fun!
I will, ... but with IWDEE instead. And IWD2 is waiting for me to return for some more experiments, too.
Kensei 9 dual is a no brainer for at least two characters for that permanent +3 damage compared to the +2, -2 bonus that the berserker will likely have over not many fights. The kensei AC bonus matters as well as it makes it that much easier to get to the crucial -15 value.
While AoE DoTS are great in certain situations they require a lot of micromanagement to keep enemies in the AoE. This micromanagement leads to a reduction in efficiency as you pause and move characters around and it also requires significant scouting or meta knowledge to know where to set the kill zones which leads to further reductions in efficiency.
Overall the most efficient system has been shown again and again to be one where every character can contribute high amounts of consistent, non-micromanaged, sustainable damage with good defenses to steam roll entire maps without having to rest and rebuff. Simply put a sorcerer does not fit into that paradigm as it hurts party DPS and Skald DPS too much for it to be viable and is just another example of making small amounts of the early game easier while sacrificing efficiency for the larger part of the game.
The single point that I am happy to concede is that an archer is a valuable addition to a party though I choose to exclude it from mine due to the difficulty of micromanaging the ammo on iOS among other reasons.
It'll probably amount to enemies getting hit one more time. Which Fighters with 10 APR have no trouble doing.
So what few seconds you're saving in the late game is at the leasteasily matched by the seconds saved in the early game. Hilarious.
Nearly every battle in IWD where I used Incendiary Cloud in the late game pretty much amounts to characters walking around, finding enemies then the Sorcerer's Image casting the Cloud right ontop of those characters. That is the extent of "micromanagement" going on. Which anyone with basic mouse skills can accomplish easily.
But feel free to actually provide an example of when the game doesn't throw you these "certain situations" Because the last time you described these "certain situations" you pegged them as times when the game throws a bunch of enemies at you that are easy to lure. Which accounts for nearly every battle in HoF. I'm still waiting on that data I've asked you on regarding casting Improved Haste on a party of 5 Fighters and being able to keep that up for a long time without resting.
I get the feeling you're running on the assumption every Mage comes with a full spellbook. This isn't BG.
It'll probably amount to enemies getting hit one more time. Which Fighters with 10 APR have no trouble doing.
So what few seconds you're saving in the late game is at the leasteasily matched by the seconds saved in the early game. Hilarious.
Nearly every battle in IWD where I used Incendiary Cloud in the late game pretty much amounts to characters walking around, finding enemies then the Sorcerer's Image casting the Cloud right ontop of those characters. That is the extent of "micromanagement" going on. Which anyone with basic mouse skills can accomplish easily.
But feel free to actually provide an example of when the game doesn't throw you these "certain situations" Because the last time you described these "certain situations" you pegged them as times when the game throws a bunch of enemies at you that are easy to lure. Which accounts for nearly every battle in HoF. I'm still waiting on that data I've asked you on regarding casting Improved Haste on a party of 5 Fighters and being able to keep that up for a long time without resting.
I get the feeling you're running on the assumption every Mage comes with a full spellbook. This isn't BG.
That +3 damage will be a ~+10% bonus for most of the game and will give more bonus damage than Skald song for quite a while which we both agree is a monumental buff. In a lot of ways the kensei bonuses are analogous with the skald songs between the AC, thac0 and damage bonuses once the lack of armour becomes irrelevant via equipment, spirit armour or barkskin. Another way of looking at is that the +3 damage equates to more damage than what Incendiary cloud does to one enemy.
Sorcerer damage output is only significant when enough enemies are rounded up. Lacking that even the decent damage of incendiary cloud becomes piddly compared to what a kensage can put out. At a minimum you need to be able to hit 10 enemies for close to the entire duration of the spell to even break even. And you have to do this for every encounter. Otherwise, as I suspect is the case, your sorcerer doesn't actually have the damage output that you claim and the additional time that you're spending laying down those clouds is hurting your efficiency more than helping it.
IH is quite easy to maintain by about the time that you get a single scroll of IH and one of PI. Simply have the image cast IH on everyone and then go on a massive killing spree. Initially this won't cover everyone but it won't take long before it does and in the meantime there are strategies to get everyone on juice if a particular fight demands it.
IWDee isn't IWD either, once you get access to HoW there is enough spells to give everyone spell choices and many more to come once some quests are completed.
So it'll only start kicking in in Chapter 3
Skald bonuses don't prohibit characters from using bows or slings when stuff like Spike Growth is the best source of damage. You mean how most battles in HoF are? Discounting how effective Cloudkill is in Chapter 2. Or how as early as the second half of Chapter 1, Sorcerers can already start putting Emotion Buffs on the party. Feel free to actually provide the locations of those scrolls and compare those to how early a Sorcerer gets these two spells. Oh you mean the area infested by a bunch of enemies where stuff like Acid Fog and Spike Growth are extremely effective since you're going there ASAP while the Fighter spellcasters are still reactivating their dual classes and don't have the weapons (like the Defender Morningstars) from endgame IWD.
So even a player that goes into HoW early still benefits from a Sorcerer or even a Berserker with a Bow over a Kensai that's pretty much underpowered the whole way until the end when it finally gets its spells. And for the equivalent of taking 1 less hit to kill enemies at the expense of being detrimental (Spike Growth) or dead weight (again Spike Growth) in the early game where enemies actually pose more of a threat.
And speaking of that You mean my preference of the part of the game where Fighter heavy parties have trouble with compared to the parts of the game where everything is just on autopilot? Gosh, imagine that, my idea of powergaming is about focusing on the part of the game where a party wipe is feasible unless the party slows itself down instead of the part of the game where a person just needs to move their characters from area to area and not really care what happens.
Also I still see no concrete data. Feel free to list the location of IH and PI scrolls. Or for that matter, battles where enemies aren't rounded up easily
So even a player that goes into HoW early still benefits from a Sorcerer or even a Berserker with a Bow over a Kensai that's pretty much underpowered the whole way until the end when it finally gets its spells. And for the equivalent of taking 1 less hit to kill enemies at the expense of being detrimental (Spike Growth) or dead weight (again Spike Growth) in the early game where enemies actually pose more of a threat.
And speaking of that You mean my preference of the part of the game where Fighter heavy parties have trouble with compared to the parts of the game where everything is just on autopilot? Gosh, imagine that, my idea of powergaming is about focusing on the part of the game where a party wipe is feasible unless the party slows itself down instead of the part of the game where a person just needs to move their characters from area to area and not really care what happens.
Also I still see no concrete data. Feel free to list the location of IH and PI scrolls. Or for that matter, battles where enemies aren't rounded up easily
Don't need anything fancy to finish HoW as 95% of it can be invis'd past for stupidly massive amounts of xp to then power the mages into filling exactly the roles that you find so important to have a sorcerer for.
I haven't played through IWDee for a while but isn't IH for sale in the tower and PI available around there somewhere?
- trusted defender for +3 AC is pretty obscene
- APR is taken care of via Polymorph Self
- damage per hit is the same just without the +2 from specialisation
- extra Mage spells per day
- faster spell progression
- gnome racial bonuses
- strength is fine with DUHM
- stats are easier to roll for
- thaco is fine with holy power
However:
- shocking grasp doesn't remove animal weapon afaik and not sure about alternatives
- banned schools for illusion could be a deal breaker (abjuration and necromancy, anything important there?)
- lower HP
The character would become a primary caster along with the Skald and be a prime candidate to PI/IH the whole party while still being able to put out consistent melee damage with Polymorph Self, sequencers and DUHM.
The main question is how to remove the animal weapon. Otherwise it seems a pretty solid idea to then make the party look something like:
Skald (dagger and buckler)
FMT (longsword, longbow, TWF, katana)
I/C (Flail, Sling)
Berserker 7/Cleric (Flail, TWF, Mace)
Kensei 9/Mage (Axe, TWF, Bastard Sword)
Kensei 9/Druid (Scimitar, TWF, Club)
I'm currently running the above party through with a FMC instead and just starting the vale now, moderately challenging but it's rapidly getting easier with access to web, chromatic orb and hold person (which isn't useful in the vale but it was very useful up to now).
Also skipping content? Well if that's the case then multiples of Sorcerer + Fighter 3/Druid party is practically the best powergaming party then. They skip most of the content, learn spells automatically. Have summons tanking and AoE everything to death. Can Time Stop to victory and finish the game (kill the Final Boss) much quicker than any party if the goal was to simply get to the end credits.
I've told you where abouts I think the buffs are found based on my experience of having them in a timely manner. My issue in the past was focused more on making the correct choices of who gets what scrolls rather than the existence of the scrolls in the first place. If I'm incorrect about rough locations though please feel free to correct me. IH is sold in the tower though and it's the only scroll in the game and PI isn't far from there. I'll give it to my Skald who doesn't need the level 6 slots for anything else.
Skipping content is a viable strategy in HoW due to the massive quest rewards and very difficult content. Additionally, you can return at a later time to clear the enemies out for the challenge and xp. I wouldn't want to skip content in the rest of the game as you still need to level up.
I think power gaming (which is the topic of the thread) is about having the most powerful party - either at one certain point or averaged over the game. Speed runs could certainly be included in that conversation.
And a Sorc can even keep up IH longer without rest as well as the rest of their spells. Something you've been criticizing the Sorcerer about over and over. It's pretty hilarious that you've been talking about Sorcerers needing to rest constantly when your party is going to run into even more trouble keeping up IH .
So yes, babbling.
Also the Skald? Seriously? Have you actually played a Bard keeping IH on an entire party of Fighters?Bards only get 3 level 7 slots after level 23 Even with a Thief XP table they simply cannot get to that level without competing a huge portion of the game. Images cannot be instantly recast so 2 slots isn't enough for 5 Fighters. You need 3 L7 slots. And it'll only work for 1 rotation since the Skald's own L7 slots will be used up.
At level 24 it'll be 2 rotations (4 L7, 4 from Image, 1 from Bard then 3 from Image and 2 from Bard) up until level 29 when finally a Bard's Image can buff without help from the Bard itself.
So yes babbling. You make ridiculous assumptions about spell availablity despite babbling on and on about how your entire party walk around with all ths buffs on them for a good portion of the game without the constant need for rest.
Also average? You know what's included in the average? The entire game. Early game included. So yes. Even by you standards powergaming you've been babbling the entire time.
Small Sorcerer and Druid parties don't need all the XP from skipped content, if you're going to introduce more ways to game the system in a powegaming discussion at least do it efficiently. The same way someone talking about 5 Fighter powergaming parties with a bunch of Arcane sub classes at least has the scroll situation properly mapped out.
I mean honestly I was expecting anyone who thinks 5 Fighters to actually walk around with minimal need for rest with IH constantly on to at least have 2 scrolls of IH and PI planned out.
As a fact, I've also been a huge fan of Imp.Hasting fighters. It just varies from time to time, and then I'm in favor of wizards again.
Oh, news from my most recent party. It's simply awesome so far within Dragon's Eye. Great arcane fire power. I don't need the fully reactivated Berserker 9->Cleric yet ... only use him (my good old 'Brother Ombas') for bringing some undead into the play. That would not be necessary. It's just that I like them for some situations where big bears move less smart through narrow caverns.
I don't babble. Really I'm just trying to humour you while helping you demonstrate to the community here just the sort of person that you are.
My first playthrough of HoF I gave IH/PI to my Swash/Mage and regretted it, I'll fix that decision this time and give it to my Skald instead. There are a number of configurations for fights possible. Sometimes it will be acceptable to only buff 4 characters with IH with the purpose of being able to refresh IH by as many times as the bard has PI (until the bard hits the 5 casts/day which arrives by the end of HoW iirc). For important fights of course everyone will have it.
Average yes, I'll help you here, when you arrive at an average you are giving equal weight to the entire population and then deciding on what's in the middle. Early game is relatively short, even with my kensei heavy party, and will be over soon as I transition into the mid game with access to summons, disablers, completed dual classes and more. Even now just at the beginning of Kress' tomb with my preference for no insane xp the xp distribution is 25/21/20/8/25 with only the FMC lagging behind with her sling in kills. It's just a simple fact that the party doesn't need a sorcerer to progress through the game efficiently and very quickly the lack of sorcerer will pay dividends in the form of increased party damage output.
I am seriously considering my above idea of a Illusionist/Cleric instead of a FMC though. In many ways the character would fill the role of Sorcerer early game but would be able to transition into outputting melee damage in later parts of the game. Shocking Grasp working differently is a pain and the next best thing would be Ghoul Touch that is banned. This leaves a friendly dispel early game or a Sequencered MMM to remove the creature weapon which is manageable for me. It also solves the bard spell slot problem that you mention above as the IC can remain in a caster role with Sequencered cleric spells and others until the bard has enough spell slots to IH everyone off the one image (except for important fights obviously).
I haven't criticised the sorcerers ability to keep buffs up on the party. What I've cruticised is your decision to have too mostly useless buff bots in your party - Skald AND sorcerer. That leaves only 4 characters to benefit from Skald song which is a deal breaker for me in terms of costs and benefits and the sorcerer is filling roles that other characters can fill while not contributing the sort of damage that is required for most of the game. Don't get me wrong, I love sorcerers and ive tried them on HoF and heaps on normal difficulty but overall including one is a decrease in efficiency when averaged over the whole game compared to the alternatives in a balanced and well managed power gaming party.
This discussion has actually been had before, I wonder where it is?
Prologue, only the Sorcerer has access to Web
Chapter 1, admittedly the Sorcerer's worst chapter Bards have Web here
Chapter 2, only Sorcerers have Cloudkill
Chapter 3, Will pick up Improved Haste later in the Chapter, will immediately be able to buff all 4 Fighters with it repeatedly (will require killing the Image to buff the last one), after 1 level will be able to buff all 4 Fighters without killing the Image.
Chapter 4, Picks up Incendiary Cloud
lol useless
Let's look at the Kensai/Spellcaster
Prologue, liability
Chapter 1, interferes with Spike Growth
Chapter 2, interferes with Spike Growth an Cloudkill
Chapter 3, still interferes with Spike Growth
Chapter 4, party will be resting over and over to keep IH on this guy
Oh and IH on only 4 Fighters most of the time? Your party is practically only the equivalent of 4.5 Fighters if you only buff 4 Fighters with IH (45 APR). That's not a big improvement over a party with 4 Fighters all with IH (40 APR) And that's assuming you can push 5 APR out of all 5 Fighters with there still being considerable amount of content left.
So you've been blabbing over and over that a Sorcerer has to somehow provide the input of an entire Fighter when all the party is really losing is .5 of a Fighter.
Hilarious. Also damage required for most of the game? The only damage required for most of the game is anything that deals damage. Last I checked 1 damage from a spell is the same as 1 damage from a weapon. And unless you can come up with more scrolls of IH and PI, a Sorcerer will be able to output those spells without resting for a much longer time (and be able to keep IH on the party for a longer time) than a Skald keeping up IH on a party of 5 Fighters.
Prologue: don't need a sorcerer when you can curse, charm, hold person, chromatic orb stun everything.
Chapter 1: sorcerers worst chapter you said.
Chapter 2: we have animate dead, hold person, access to new spells at orricks and as soon as we hit level 9 we can go to HoW and bulk out our spell books all the way to level 9 (funds allowing)
Chapter 3: by this time we've completed our duals and are well on our way to steamrolling without the need for any silly sorcerer
In contrast:
Kensage in-
Prologue: high damage output and enough HP to not be 1 shotted, minimal micromanagement with the tank keeps everyone safe.
By the end of the prologue the kill distribution was 31% to the FMT followed by 26% for the first kensei, 21% for the second and finally 18% for the berserker. I've restarted with an illusionist/cleric for fun and interest to try it out as I really like sequencered cleric spells in IWD (curse, chant, prayer, recitation especially as debuffers).
Chapter 1 is even easier with Animate Dead and Web allowing the kensei's to clear trash very efficiently.
Now, with this party the cleric/illusionist will have a similar role to the sorcerer while allowing more duals (unless you run without a healer?). However, the illcler can transition to a melee damage role with Polymorph, DUHM and other buffs from about level 9 cleric and be as competitive in this role as any fighter. I'm not convinced that the illcler is a better choice than the FMC however I've played extensively with a FMC so I want to try this out (as far as power gaming parties go a two person party of FMT and FMC is pretty unstoppable in my experience).
So, in this situation your sorcerer has to be better than the illcler who is filling the role of healer, disabler, buffer, raiser, .5 fighter every fight, 1 fighter for tough fights, tank (don't forget that gnome hat) and debuffer (greater malison looks silly compared to the save penalties that this guy can put out if needed).
Certainly restating with this guy made the prologue heaps easier and very quick, I'll have to see how the rest goes but I'll be happy to report back and let you know just what's experience without a sorcerer is like. Mind you, I have done HoF with a sorcerer before but the sorc is just so useless I ditched him in favour of a kensage.
You really should look up the last HoF the head where sorc is discussed at length.
Improved efficiency None of Orrick's new spells match 10d10 AoE damage.
Also HoW? You're going to HoW with a party that's barely out of Chapter 1? Oh right skipping content. Well again if you're going to game the system by skipping content, the Sorcerer and Druid will reach the end credits faster by skipping content and still be capable of killing entire enemy groups and required fights. And a party with a Sorcerer will also be completing their duals and thanks to the Sorcerer have IH on them. Which after the Sorcerer gains another level after learning IH can keep up longer without resting
So 5 Fighters vs 8 Fighters? lol Bows have comparable damage output with 2 APR and don't intefere with Web.
Also kill distribution? So the Fighter with the Bow has the highest kill percentage? The weapon a Kensai can't use? Gosh imagine that.
Oh and if the player is going to go into HoW right away, that means the Sorcerer picks up IH even earlier. Spike Growth can handle most enemies there initially, then the Sorcerer eventually gets that Acid AoE spell for even faster killing.
So unless there's another IH scroll somewhere in HoW, the Sorcerer party now has a leg up with the Sorcerer learning IH waaaaaaay before a Sorcerer-less party has it.
Improved efficiency None of Orrick's new spells match 10d10 AoE damage.
Also HoW? You're going to HoW with a party that's barely out of Chapter 1? Oh right skipping content. Well again if you're going to game the system by skipping content, the Sorcerer and Druid will reach the end credits faster by skipping content and still be capable of killing entire enemy groups and required fights. And a party with a Sorcerer will also be completing their duals and thanks to the Sorcerer have IH on them. Which after the Sorcerer gains another level after learning IH can keep up longer without resting
So 5 Fighters vs 8 Fighters? lol Bows have comparable damage output with 2 APR and don't intefere with Web.
Also kill distribution? So the Fighter with the Bow has the highest kill percentage? The weapon a Kensai can't use? Gosh imagine that.
Oh and if the player is going to go into HoW right away, that means the Sorcerer picks up IH even earlier. Spike Growth can handle most enemies there initially, then the Sorcerer eventually gets that Acid AoE spell for even faster killing.
So unless there's another IH scroll somewhere in HoW, the Sorcerer party now has a leg up with the Sorcerer learning IH waaaaaaay before a Sorcerer-less party has it.
Yes, the ranged weapon user managed 5% more kills in the ideal situation for ranged weaponry by a very competent ranged weapon user against a melee weapon user in the least ideal situation. Imagine that (/sarcasm).
Don't forget Kai for a little burst damage to take down stunned ogres as well.
Web requires significant micromanagement until you have fom rings and you'll still need melee weapon users at the edge to hold up any that make saves.
I'd much rather a healer in the prologue over a sorcerer as curse and hold person are good enough and cures and faster animate dead are well worth it.
You don't even need to skip content to go into HoW as soon as you're able, there's tasty xp available in the town not to mention pick pocketable items and two shops with all the spell scrolls you need, no content skipping required. I'm not 100% but I think Cloudkill is available here too (negating one of your main arguments if it's the case).
No, my party will have IH just as fast as yours just with less casts per day.
Speaking of your party, what class choices did you make? FMT? Swash/fighter? 3 zerks? I'm curious because from where I sit you don't have much going for it.
Right because stationing an armored Fighter near the edge of Web then either running to the other side or switching to melee + shield is "significant micromanagement"
Are people playing this game somehow incapable of performing even simple microing tasks? Gosh I didn't know we were designing powergaming parties for people without functional arms because all of this is incredibly simple.
Also a healer in the Prologue? How exactly will a Sorcerer conflict with a healer? Last I checked when I put a Sorcerer in a party, I have no trouble getting a Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Druid, Fighter 3>Cleric or Fighter 3>Druid. Or for that matter the 2 potions of healing. Or rest until healed.
With enough layers of Web and Grease, and baiting in the worst case scenario, then resting until healed, there was no need for me to cast a healing spell in the Prologue or even bothering to use a healing potion. Oh you mean needing to rest more? Or simply not being able to cast IH on the entire Party. Because a Sorcerer can cast IH on 4 Fighters as early as Level 14 or 15M XP
While a Bard can't even cast IH at 15M XP (Level 17) they only get it at 24M and that's only for 2 people with IH.
They need 26M XP to cast it on 5 people, and only 1 rotation per rest. 28M for 2 rotations and, 30M single Images being able to IH 4 people, 2 rotations of 5. And a whopping 40M for single Images for 5 people.
So a few million shy of twice the amount of XP a Sorcerer can keep up full rotations of IH.
Way, way, way before.
lol "less casts per day" more like less Fighters per day with IH.
So after entering HoW a Sorcerer will have the equivalent of 8 Fighters in their party as early as 15M XP. while a Sorcerer-less party will have how many at that much XP?
And how exactly do 3 Berserker/Spellcasters and a Archer with full IH far earlier and Web + Bows in the Prologue not have much going for it?
Also 5% more, obviously the Kensai has to land killing hits too.
Oh and how often did your characters miss because last I checked, when I used Web, they didn't miss at all. Even the Beetles had 5 AC. So what rolls would characters need to hit something with 5 AC early on?
Because that's certainly going to be less than a 100% hit rate.
While a Bard can't even cast IH at 15M XP (Level 17) they only get it at 24M and that's only for 2 people with IH.
They need 26M XP to cast it on 5 people, and only 1 rotation per rest. 28M for 2 rotations and, 30M single Images being able to IH 4 people, 2 rotations of 5. And a whopping 40M for single Images for 5 people.
So a few million shy of twice the amount of XP a Sorcerer can keep up full rotations of IH.
Way, way, way before.
lol "less casts per day" more like less Fighters per day with IH.
So after entering HoW a Sorcerer will have the equivalent of 8 Fighters in their party as early as 15M XP. while a Sorcerer-less party will have how many at that much XP?
And how exactly do 3 Berserker/Spellcasters and a Archer with full IH far earlier and Web + Bows in the Prologue not have much going for it?
Also 5% more, obviously the Kensai has to land killing hits too.
Oh and how often did your characters miss because last I checked, when I used Web, they didn't miss at all. Even the Beetles had 5 AC. So what rolls would characters need to hit something with 5 AC early on?
Because that's certainly going to be less than a 100% hit rate.
You may not have realised but beetles that are eating something won't attack unless you enter melee with them. The first beetles in the cellar are taken care of by 3 ranged characters with 0 hits taken. I suppose you'd save a few seconds with an extra couple of ranged characters, the second set in Kuldahar Pass are webbed and the kensei's carve them up.
I'm not really sure what the AC values of various foes are though the 4 warriors are all pretty even and have pretty even kill values (about to enter the vale and bow guy is now second with 40 kills compared to axe girls 41 kills which says a lot about the effectiveness of kensei's). I don't notice them missing particularly often but with web and chrome stuns it's not a big deal.
With the adjustment to the party of the illcler instead of the FMC I may reassess the direction of the IH scroll. End game the Skald is the best user of it with the spell slots that he eventually gets though it does take a while as you point out (in my last play through I regretted not giving it to the Skald but it might be a different situation this time with the multi that I have).
I really don't find the prologue worth discussing anymore, the party that I posted progressed very quickly through it with very little hassle and is now on to bigger and better things. The prologue is all of about one small dungeon and a few small encounters and unless you have a hopeless party or hopeless micro skills it's going to be barely a blip on the radar of the game as a whole.
Speaking of the micro skills I really don't find your arguments regarding web as being consistent with my experience in game. Sure, if you fully prep an area with multiple webs and greases it can hold up large groups but that isn't efficient compared to laying down one web with an adequate tank and cutting down the enemies inside whether they are held or not (I save the Kai for when there is held enemies though which is super effective). If you have that tank on the edge of the web though enemies will surround the tank and drift out of the AoE which is why it isn't efficient in the prologue compared to simply holding or charming everything.
Bards can cast IH from level 16 which is 1.32m xp and get PI at 2.42m xp (along with 4 casts of IH). Only 902k xp behind a sorcerer. At least according to the official game manual.
So what was your actual party? If you put a multi or level 3 dual in then you are gimping your party even worse just to have a gimp sorcerer so I really don't understand your reasoning.
It's worth noting that at 2.42m xp when the bard gets PI that the IH on 4 party members will last for 24 rounds (for a total of 48 rounds or almost 5 minutes) compared to the sorcerer who will have to cast IH 3 times to get the same 48 rounds compared to the Bards 2 casts thanks to higher caster level.
It comes down to the basic reality that the sorcerer doesn't contribute anything that sognificantly enhances the power of the party through most of the game. Sure, the first little map in the prologue is easier but so what? Soon enough the sorcerer realised that everything he does could be done by another character and at least they can whack stuff.
So if beetles have 5 AC, that means the Goblins and Orcs in the cave will have around that much. What do characters in the prologue need to roll to hit 5 AC? Webbed enemies are auto hit. Kensais can use Kai all they want but that still doesn't guarantee an auto hit.
Also what's this fully prep nonsense? It's as easy as having summons walk in front of the party then when monsters see them casting Web on top of those summons. That's basic tactics.
The tank outside the AoE of web is for the prologue when there's no summons to draw everything. Did I really need to explain that? I mean honestly, that should have been obvious.
I already gave my party. Also multi? Level 3 dual classes. I only included those multis and duals classes for people who somehow still need to heal during battle in the prologue. Which isn't necessary at all.
And again, Incendiary Cloud is 20 damage to every enemy in battle. Sorcerers have more casts of those and can combine all of that with Projected Image. In a game where there are at least a half dozen enemies in every enemy group the game throws at you which most of them will gravitate towards the first character they see. Or the "certain situation" you keep talking about that Sorcerers need to utilize their AoE spells.
Oh and Sorcerers somehow need to rebuff characters more often. How is this an issue when spell slots isn't an issue for them? Unless you have hopeless micro skills or a hopeless party, 10% more damage is barely going to be a blip with 10 APR Fighters. Especially if there's someone casting an Incendiary Cloud each battle.
20 damage per enemy is only 120 damage/round according to you and less once enemies start dropping which is a far cry from even the 200 that the Skald will do (only 160 for you as you're missing a front line combatant) and 300 to 500 for front line combatants.
So you don't have a healer and somehow think that it's an improvement in the prologue? Curse, Hold Person and Animate Dead is a very easy way to pass through the Prologue.
Just starting the vale now and I already have Animate Dead along with plenty of Web's despite not taking the cheesy insane xp bonus (which I challenge you to try).
Having a buff last 50% longer isn't an inconsequential benefit when it comes to the opportunity cost of actually casting the spells.
You didn't give your party, you included a couple of "or" situations so I'm asking what you actually go with.
While a Fighter 7>Cleric will still get Animate Dead by simply clearing the pass and the entire Vale, before heading into individual tombs where summons actually matter.
Cutting out party members? Well if that's the case then a Sorcerer can easily get Emotion Hope and Courage in Chapter 1. Rest grinding? lol
Opportunity cost what? Is there some reason the Sorcerer can't cast IH when a battle is dwindling down and IH is about to run out?
I already gave my party, and I clarified which of the or situations I went with.
The extra few seconds you supposedly save because apparently 4 10 APR Fighters + Incendiary Cloud and 5 10 APR Fighters are worlds apart when it comes to the number of seconds it takes to finish a battle that's practically done on auto pilot automatically matter more than making one of the hardest parts of a HoF run easier.
So lowering the risk in the riskiest part of the game (because you have to be kidding me if you're trying to say there's any risk left in the later chapters apart from a few battles, the more damage doesn't make those less riskier) vs. a few seconds at best in battles that players can half doze themselves through.
Also the conditions didn't include turning off the difficulty XP option. Why keep bringing it up. It has no bearing on this particular powergaming discussion.
I think improvements to the game that were made in v1.4 are more than relevant to this thread particularly as HoF in it's old form was too easy (probably why you felt so competent with your party). I've multiplayer duo'd most of HoF for instance and others have soloed it.
Sorry, I must have missed the clarification that you made on your Or statements amongst your many intelligent and informative posts, can you tell us again?
Seriously, the prologue and chapter 1 isn't risky or difficult with a modicum of tactics and strategy and certainly doesn't justify including an entire character just to handle it.
Before you include Incendiary Cloud going from 4 to 5 fighters could mean +25% output in damage. With Incendiary Cloud it would still be at least +15% if that 5th character doesn't just cast an Incendiary Cloud of it's own. Then add on the lost damage from no Kensei's (60 right there - that's half of your cloud by your reckoning) and whatever other suboptimal choices you made just to make the Prologue easier.
Opportunity cost, are you unfamiliar with the concept? If you're recasting Haste 1/3 more often then you're losing those actions and having to cast haste instead of do something more useful (but by that stage the sorcerer isn't very useful which I guess is the point so maybe not such a big deal?).
Oh wow talking about the version of the game now? Gosh, I played this party in April. Guess there must have been a second 1.4 stealth patch released after.
Stop trying to pretend most of the late game is actually more difficult than the first few battles. Especially with a bunch of Fighter/Spellcasters.
I asked how does 3 Berserker Spellcasters and an Archer have not much going for it. Should I have spelled it out the choices I made, the context was super duper obvious.
I'm not talking about the Prologue or Chapter 1 being difficult, I'm talking about those two parts of the game being the hardest parts. Enemies in the prologue have an actual shot at killing the party if the player isn't paying attention.
Enemies in the later part of the game have nearly no shot of killing a character.
The fifth character? And does this fifth character cast Incendiary Cloud in every battle without rest? Because the Sorcerer can. Also what does another character casting Incendiary Cloud matter? Last I checked Incendiary Cloud layers.
Yes I know what opporunity cost means. I'm talking about the practical application. What does it amount to? A few seconds every few battles that amount to moving parties from one point to the other and literally just watching them kill stuff (with minimal interaction like point clicking a spot over a party member for the Sorcerer to drop an Incendiary cloud, unless you want to bring up "lol" a lot of micromanagement) then repeating the process over and over again? Hilarious.
So the Sorcerer can't drop another Incendiary Cloud when there's only 1 or 2 enemies left because they're casting Improved Haste on the Fighters. Wow that matters so much because without that 5th character contributing more damage on the round, those 1 or 2 enemies (that have already been damaged by Incendiary Cloud) will somehow take the 4 Fighters forever to kill. Oh wait they don't. That's 40 APR vs 1-2 stragglers that are already substantially damaged.
They'll drop dead insanely fast with or without the Sorcerer casting another damage spell or not.
And 61,8xx XP after clearing Pass and Canyon. That would be Cleric 6/Illu 5 then for a second Animate Dead per day.
Which makes it irrelevant. Beating the Orc Cave means a party with the same tactics can beat the pass.
Archers don't even get their full +1 damage/3 levels and they miss out on strength bonuses to damage. What's the average damage per arrow on an end game archer without using the really good ammo that is not abundant for anything but the biggest boss fights? 25 with Skald song? Even if it's 30 that still puts it at the low end for damage output.
I have to note that an archer isn't a caster so not only are you down a physical damage dealer with your sorcerer but you're also down a caster with your archer. Add on to that the missing damage from kensei and I really wouldn't be surprised if your party was at least 20% behind in damage compared to mine from the time the duals are complete until the end of the game.
Now, I'm sure you'll rationalise away the minor amount of additional hits that are required for you to finish an encounter compared to my party but 20% difference is a 20% difference overall and any small amount of additional time that I spent in the prologue will be a drop in the ocean compared to the extrapolated impact of that damage output deficiency.
I'm glad that you had fun with your party, it just doesn't seem to be the best power gaming party.
Also how is the Archer not a caster? It's got Spike Growth which is really the only offensive Druid spell worth casting. Armor of Faith, Iron Skin (which it has) and the regen buff are irrelevant for a character that stays in missile range.
Also 20% difference overall? Wow so your party deals 20% more damage at the start of the game... oh wait it doesn't. How about in chapter 1... wait nope. And the mid end game is even less difficult and picking and casting the correct buffs is even a simpler task. Cloudkill, early Emotion Buffs, etc. Doesn't interfere with Spike Growth in Chapter 1. Doesn't interfere with Spike Growth and Cloudkill afterwards. Just as you rationalize the time it takes for a Kensai/Mage to get to 10 APR is nonexistent. Or somehow try to imply that, save for a few battles, the mid and end game aren't even more mindless than the early game.
But hey dealing the most damage in the part of the game where everything is just move characters, watch characters kill stuff is fun. Making the easier part of the game even easier at the cost of the part with some actual chance at triggering a game over isn't powergaming.
So, clearly one doesn't want to apply such "tactics" often.
Not forgetting that a single Sorcerer can only cast a few Grease/Web.
News from my modified party: Dragon's Eye cleared 10 days earlier than the previous party ... which very likely is because several times I've not rested between multiple encounters. The Dragon Disciple and the Sorcerer rule the show.