I only ever sing and spell with a Skald or vanilla bard. Average out its ranged damage vs the added benefit to the whole party and its rarely worth it.
If you want to maximize in absurdum, you can get a shot of and then switch to singing when the battle begins and maybe get the bonuses from the song applied before your other chars' attacks lands. In that case you want a high speed weapon to initiate the attach immediately before switching to singing, and you would want it to be ranged ofc.
I doubt it would much of a difference though, so keep the bard's vocal chords lubed up (if a skald, be sure to bring those bottles of win from Pomab. Skalds are heavy drinkers, I presume) and keep him/her singing all the time.
Edit: Of course it should say "bottles of winE", but "bottles of win" is too cool to be edited out. Must be some kind of freudian slip
So I've started my level 1 HoF part that I suggested above: Kensei 9 or 13/Mage axe+bastard sword FMC flail+hammer+sling FMT longsword+katana+longbow Berserker 7/Cleric flail+mace Kensei 9/Druid scimitar+club+dagger Skald
Everything is smooth so far. The berserker is the perfect tank and let's the kensei's wail away in melee without taking hits. Other characters do great ranged.
I have the no bonus xp for insane box ticked so xp is halved even on HoF so the game will hopefully be considerably more challenging. Additionally I'm going to avoid going to the expansion as that makes the game way too easy.
So I've started my level 1 HoF part that I suggested above:
Heya! ... That's the only way to find out.
Kensei 9 or 13/Mage axe+bastard sword
Some numbers for the full XP case ... Kensai13->Mage14 would be 2*1,500,000 XP to get back both classes. Or 2*250,000 to get the K9/M10. That would happen some time inside Dragon's Eye. Forgotten Temple is from 250,000 to a bit less than 275,000 XP per character. Dragon's Eye here has been up to 756,000 XP before opening Yxunomei's chamber ... and 811,000 XP after defeating her ... she and her followers went down easier than at Core difficulty or Insane.
So, if you go Kensai 13, it will remain a pure Kensai inside Dragon's Eye ... not taking into account your reduced XP gameplay settings.
Berserker 7/Cleric flail+mace
Everything is smooth so far. The berserker is the perfect tank
I've burned a lot more XP by giving the controversial Berserker 9->Cleric a try ... at the luxury of the Fighter/Druid's animal summons serving as infantry.
I have the no bonus xp for insane box ticked so xp is halved even on HoF so the game will hopefully be considerably more challenging.
No thief. What have you planned with regard to traps?
The Avenger will be like a Sorcerer with different spells. The few arcane spells the Avenger learns are nothing special ... and don't make a difference either. Don't even think about what weapon to give the Avenger, because druidic spells is what you should be most interested in.
And "LS and Axe and DW" is difficult to comment on. Decide when you've found some good long swords whether you want to invest into axes, too. The off-hand is weaker. It makes no sense to put a less skilled weapon into the off-hand, unless the weapon gives a really worthwhile bonus.
Think twice before installing mods and using eekeeper. How far would you go? Modify the game ... maximize stats with an editor ... manipulate the characters, races, classes ...? Why?
First play the unmodified game. Then think about modifying it for another playthrough. Perhaps a more challenging one.
Do you have some good working spell tactics for this combo?
Summons and area spells that protect you from being overrun by enemy hordes. Damage over time spells to your liking. And still there's some freedom with regard to what to choose for some spell slots. I mean, you can try creating a battle mage ... but you really need to find out what works for you.
Traps I will just walk over and wish for the best... Okay so who would you replace the avenger with? I think LS and Axe are just the 2 best weapon categories so I hope to be prepared for whichever drops... My game will be challenging because I will use the most difficult difficulty-level possible...
Because a druid with fighter levels is at least 1.5x as effective with weapons. Max wis, 9 Int if you want to use scrolls, min Cha you can get away with (17 if dual! 15 otherwise), max Dex, can drop Str and Con if need be. You can use items/spells to increase Str (don't go below 15 if dual) and decide how bad you need the extra up to 36 HP from Con bonus.
... getting the impression you didn't read much of what has been written in this topic already. So, to rehash:
Fighter or Berserker to level 7, that's at 64,000 XP ... then dual-class to druid can work ... provided that you don't need a druid early in the game. When dual-classing and you're not familiar with it, be sure to check at level 2 whether the dual-class button is active. Else your attributes are insufficient.
Whether to dual at level 9 or 13, visit the appendix tables in the manual. How long do you like to wait for the first class to be available again?
For my test party I've chosen a multi-class Fighter/Druid. Slower advancement at higher levels than a dual-class one, but very helpful early already.
Weapon for a druid? A sling ... and if you want to do melee damage later, a druid can only learn a few weapon skills ---> see the manual. With a dual berserker->druid, Spears and two-handed weapons skill would be a option to wear the Slayer +5 spear one can get. Two-handed weapons skill also applies to quarterstaves ... just in case. Else, clubs, scimitars, okay.
It depends how you want to play the character. Within the party you posted above, I'd be inclined, weapons-wise when not casting/shapeshifted, to play it as a ranged and 3rd in melee type. Sling specialization for sure. After that, I like scimitars for Moonblade/Valiant/Frostbrand and spears. Clubs and daggers are a possibility as well. I like the spear for melee from the second row, but it's arguably not the strongest melee choice, although tactically it may lead to the F/D being targeted less.
When all is said and done, your druid is going to spend maybe 1/4 of the game using a melee weapon vs 3/4 for spells/ranged/shapeshift, so it doesn't really matter if you don't choose the "best" weapon choice. I still wouldn't take darts/staff, but the rest of the choices are relatively strong.
Edit: I wouldn't dual any higher than 9 for a non-HoF game. There's a strong case to be made for 3, 6, and 7. It's trading off earlier access vs. warrior effectiveness. I think the sweet spot is lvl 7, you get an extra half attack/round and with the druid xp progression it doesn't take very long to regain fighter levels.
Edit 2: I once played a F13/D dual and F/D multi in the same lvl 1 HoF party for comparison purposes, and by the time the dual got his fighter levels back, they were practically meaningless. The multi ended up with better damage and kill numbers, and was much more even in its contributions throughout the game. I vastly prefer having earlier access to druid spells, especially the AoE and strong summons, earlier in the game. Later in the game they don't matter so much.
What do you think about this party? Do you have some good working spell tactics for this combo?
I have a mod where every race can be whatever class they want.Considering this, which races would you give to my 6 guys and girls?
Just realise that you have 3 characters who don't have the consistent damage output of a fighter multi or dual.
This can be mitigated in this party with Skald song and Polymorph Self but the best way to get he most out of Skald song is to have a lot of party members with a lot of attacks.
I like Kensei 9-> Druid. If you look at the xp tables the Druid levels up ridiculously fast for those first 10 levels so you might as well take advantage of that xp curve and net the nice, permanent +3 att/dam. Weapon wise it's scimitar all the way, craft the frozen scimitar for the Druid in the expansion and equip the action one in the offhand and you'll be sweet.
Kensei 13 -> Mage can be accomplished with some party management shenanigans via removal of party members for big xp rewards, particularly the big ones in the expansion. Cheese yes but isn't that what HoF is about?
Fighter multi duals don't have consistent output either.
Their damage lags way behind Spike Growth and Cloudkill up until maybe Chapter 3 (mainly because Cloudkill is useless there) And Sorcerers have Incendiary Cloud by Chapter 4.
To use more words: They have consistent damage output from their melee ability. That means they can retain their average damage for much longer than spellcasters, who run out of spells. Whether their damage lags behind certain spells is irrelevant--that's not what consistent means.
By the time melee catches up to spells, a Sorcerer is well on its way to becoming a self sustaining nuke machine. Once it gets Wish, every spellcaster in the party has practically unlimited spells.
Also Druids can restore 2 casts of Spike Growth with Wonderous Recall. So really, seriously?
By the time melee catches up to spells, a Sorcerer is well on its way to becoming a self sustaining nuke machine. Once it gets Wish, every spellcaster in the party has practically unlimited spells.
Also Druids can restore 2 casts of Spike Growth with Wonderous Recall. So really, seriously?
That's not what consistency means. Relative efficacy has nothing to do with either melee or spells being consistent. I wanted to point out this error in your thinking. If you want to argue which is actually more consistent, it's probably best to open a new thread. I shall refrain from arguing that here.
Battles in HoF do not last forever. And 2 spellcasters will certainly be able to cast enough spells to finish battles inbetween rests. So again what "consistency" do Fighters have that Spellcasters don't. And since we're talking about errors in thinking does the Rest button suddenly not exist?
Really? Because then what do Fighters have over Spellcasters in terms of "consistency"?
A well built dual or multi can inflict high damage per round regardless of the amount of enemies or positioning. With appropriate defenses these characters can inflict that damage repeatedly over a much greater period of time than spell casters.
Really? Greater than Level/2 D4 per round to all enemies? Or Level D4 per round on the next? Or 1.5 Level D4? Or 2 Level D4 on the fourth round?
Also positioning? In this game? Where enemies all rush to the same point? Seriously? There are only three enemies that move around a lot (Luremaster, Pomab, final boss) and one group that's hard to compress together (Marketh) granted these are major fights. But nothing Timestop won't make easy anyway.
But that's balanced by the time Fighters don't have access to Improved Haste, Stoneskin, or good weapons whils the Druid is layering Spike Trap.
Really? Greater than Level/2 D4 per round to all enemies? Or Level D4 per round on the next? Or 1.5 Level D4? Or 2 Level D4 on the fourth round?
Also positioning? In this game? Where enemies all rush to the same point? Seriously? There are only three enemies that move around a lot (Luremaster, Pomab, final boss) and one group that's hard to compress together (Marketh) granted these are major fights. But nothing Timestop won't make easy anyway.
But that's balanced by the time Fighters don't have access to Improved Haste, Stoneskin, or good weapons whils the Druid is layering Spike Trap.
Yes seriously. AoEs rely on all enemies being in one place, good damage output relies on a large number of enemies, being able to output that damage relies on having rested recently. This is not "consistent".
A dual or multi fighter on the other hand can do more damage each and every round regardless of the circumstances. That is consistent.
I can't comment on the mod version, but the shapeshifter kit from IWDEE is acceptable. The werewolf shapechange is very strong early (I don't think mine has been hit more than once/fight through the Vale), and all the spells are the same. As far as I'm concerned, the kits are just flavour, and the druid still rocks whichever one you choose. Any druid is a good druid, as long as it can cast.
Druids are decent to good with weapons, have excellent spells, and must abuse shapechange/Barkskin/Ironskins in order to tank. I don't think any of the variations move the needle on that assessment.
My thoughts on a party set up having just knocked over the main campaign and expansions on Insane Difficulty:
I used the following setup, dubbed the Berserkergang. Their theme is pretty damn old school Norse.
Half Elf Skald Half Orc Barbarian Half Elf Ranger/Cleric Human Dual Berserker 10/Cleric Human Dual Berserker 10/Mage Elf Fighter/Thief
This party was fun as hell, but I doubt I'd take it into HoF because the progression for most characters tops out very quickly. My Bard was level 30 well before I finished the main game, my Barbarian maxed out not all that long after and my Dual Classers are very nearly there. Even the Multiclass characters are quite far along their progression.
If the intention is pure Power and enjoying a long term progression for HoF (because not being able to level up in the middle of an XP Fest is kinda lame), then a party of Dual & Multi Classed Characters will be the way to go (perhaps with one or two Triple Classers).
Here's what I'd plan on running for raw Power in HoF:
Human Dual Berserker 13/Cleric Human Dual Berserker 13/Mage Half Orc Fighter/Cleric Half Elf Ranger/Cleric Gnome Fighter/Illusionist Elf Fighter/Thief/Mage
Some general observations that will probably fall in line with most people's:
-Ranger/Cleric is given a lot of unexpected longevity by the way the Ranger/Druid Spell progression kicks in.... Iron Skins only show up quite late in their levelling experience, which really gives you something to look forward to. Given EVERYONE gets Rings of Free Action by endgame, Entangle also becomes a really great crowd control spell. It doesn't give you the same level of battlefield control that Web does, but for a cheap and cheerful level 1 spell it's insanely useful. -The one reason I didn't run an Archer: There are just not enough good arrows available, and even with stacks of 80 you chew through 'em waaaaaay too fast. Both as a concept and as a tactical option, I love the idea of having a dedicated Archer. They ooze coolness. But the equipment available just doesn't make this viable for the long term. You need a melee/magic fallback to go with your ranged weapon. -Bards are for singing. Bard Song in combo with Haste, Emotion and Priest Buffs = U DIE NAO. Single class rogue THAC0 is the definition of mediocrity.... but Skalding a rampant Barbarian or Berserker to a further +4 Hit and Damage... Priceless. Not enough to justify a HoF run, IMO, but still cool. -Medium Armours mostly suck. My Barbarian went from having crappy, standard splint mail to suddenly having the Untouchable White Pimp Suit of Pwnage (also known as Frost Dragon Scale).... with nothing in between. It was literally one step from being a leper to being double axe wielding Elvis McJesus. Yes, there's Elven chain, but there other builds that get far more benefit from it. -I thought I'd desperately miss not having an Inquisitor in the party... BG2 without Keldorn was a much, much harder game. Not the case in IWD. Paladins just don't have enough cool features to justify including one all the way through HoF, IMO. One (amazing) sword and some unique conversation options.... I can live without that for the versatility and long term progression from a Multi or Dual Warrior.
Comments
Party members other than the Skald are much better ranged fighters.
I doubt it would much of a difference though, so keep the bard's vocal chords lubed up (if a skald, be sure to bring those bottles of win from Pomab. Skalds are heavy drinkers, I presume) and keep him/her singing all the time.
Edit: Of course it should say "bottles of winE", but "bottles of win" is too cool to be edited out. Must be some kind of freudian slip
Kensei 9 or 13/Mage axe+bastard sword
FMC flail+hammer+sling
FMT longsword+katana+longbow
Berserker 7/Cleric flail+mace
Kensei 9/Druid scimitar+club+dagger
Skald
Everything is smooth so far. The berserker is the perfect tank and let's the kensei's wail away in melee without taking hits. Other characters do great ranged.
I have the no bonus xp for insane box ticked so xp is halved even on HoF so the game will hopefully be considerably more challenging. Additionally I'm going to avoid going to the expansion as that makes the game way too easy.
So, if you go Kensai 13, it will remain a pure Kensai inside Dragon's Eye ... not taking into account your reduced XP gameplay settings.
Sorcerer
Skald
Avenger (whatever)
Archer (5x longbow)
Bers 7 to Cleric GM in flails and dw
Fighter/Mage (maybe Kensai) LS and Axe and DW
What do you think about this party?
Do you have some good working spell tactics for this combo?
I have a mod where every race can be whatever class they want.Considering this, which races would you give to my 6 guys and girls?
A F/D or B3>D still gets Spike Growth early on and won't be stuck with lousy damage spells once Fighters can start using melee weapons.
The Avenger will be like a Sorcerer with different spells. The few arcane spells the Avenger learns are nothing special ... and don't make a difference either. Don't even think about what weapon to give the Avenger, because druidic spells is what you should be most interested in.
And "LS and Axe and DW" is difficult to comment on. Decide when you've found some good long swords whether you want to invest into axes, too. The off-hand is weaker. It makes no sense to put a less skilled weapon into the off-hand, unless the weapon gives a really worthwhile bonus.
Think twice before installing mods and using eekeeper. How far would you go? Modify the game ... maximize stats with an editor ... manipulate the characters, races, classes ...? Why?
First play the unmodified game. Then think about modifying it for another playthrough. Perhaps a more challenging one. Summons and area spells that protect you from being overrun by enemy hordes. Damage over time spells to your liking. And still there's some freedom with regard to what to choose for some spell slots. I mean, you can try creating a battle mage ... but you really need to find out what works for you.
Okay so who would you replace the avenger with?
I think LS and Axe are just the 2 best weapon categories so I hope to be prepared for whichever drops...
My game will be challenging because I will use the most difficult difficulty-level possible...
And which stats would you give him?
Why???
At which level would you dual?
Fighter or Berserker to level 7, that's at 64,000 XP ... then dual-class to druid can work ... provided that you don't need a druid early in the game. When dual-classing and you're not familiar with it, be sure to check at level 2 whether the dual-class button is active. Else your attributes are insufficient.
Whether to dual at level 9 or 13, visit the appendix tables in the manual. How long do you like to wait for the first class to be available again?
For my test party I've chosen a multi-class Fighter/Druid. Slower advancement at higher levels than a dual-class one, but very helpful early already.
Weapon for a druid? A sling ... and if you want to do melee damage later, a druid can only learn a few weapon skills ---> see the manual. With a dual berserker->druid, Spears and two-handed weapons skill would be a option to wear the Slayer +5 spear one can get. Two-handed weapons skill also applies to quarterstaves ... just in case. Else, clubs, scimitars, okay.
When all is said and done, your druid is going to spend maybe 1/4 of the game using a melee weapon vs 3/4 for spells/ranged/shapeshift, so it doesn't really matter if you don't choose the "best" weapon choice. I still wouldn't take darts/staff, but the rest of the choices are relatively strong.
Edit: I wouldn't dual any higher than 9 for a non-HoF game. There's a strong case to be made for 3, 6, and 7. It's trading off earlier access vs. warrior effectiveness. I think the sweet spot is lvl 7, you get an extra half attack/round and with the druid xp progression it doesn't take very long to regain fighter levels.
Edit 2: I once played a F13/D dual and F/D multi in the same lvl 1 HoF party for comparison purposes, and by the time the dual got his fighter levels back, they were practically meaningless. The multi ended up with better damage and kill numbers, and was much more even in its contributions throughout the game. I vastly prefer having earlier access to druid spells, especially the AoE and strong summons, earlier in the game. Later in the game they don't matter so much.
This can be mitigated in this party with Skald song and Polymorph Self but the best way to get he most out of Skald song is to have a lot of party members with a lot of attacks.
I like Kensei 9-> Druid. If you look at the xp tables the Druid levels up ridiculously fast for those first 10 levels so you might as well take advantage of that xp curve and net the nice, permanent +3 att/dam. Weapon wise it's scimitar all the way, craft the frozen scimitar for the Druid in the expansion and equip the action one in the offhand and you'll be sweet.
Kensei 13 -> Mage can be accomplished with some party management shenanigans via removal of party members for big xp rewards, particularly the big ones in the expansion. Cheese yes but isn't that what HoF is about?
Their damage lags way behind Spike Growth and Cloudkill up until maybe Chapter 3 (mainly because Cloudkill is useless there) And Sorcerers have Incendiary Cloud by Chapter 4.
By the time melee catches up to spells, a Sorcerer is well on its way to becoming a self sustaining nuke machine. Once it gets Wish, every spellcaster in the party has practically unlimited spells.
Also Druids can restore 2 casts of Spike Growth with Wonderous Recall. So really, seriously?
Also positioning? In this game? Where enemies all rush to the same point? Seriously? There are only three enemies that move around a lot (Luremaster, Pomab, final boss) and one group that's hard to compress together (Marketh) granted these are major fights. But nothing Timestop won't make easy anyway.
But that's balanced by the time Fighters don't have access to Improved Haste, Stoneskin, or good weapons whils the Druid is layering Spike Trap.
A dual or multi fighter on the other hand can do more damage each and every round regardless of the circumstances. That is consistent.
And since when was it impossible to rest inbetween battles?
Would that be a good druid?
Druids are decent to good with weapons, have excellent spells, and must abuse shapechange/Barkskin/Ironskins in order to tank. I don't think any of the variations move the needle on that assessment.
I used the following setup, dubbed the Berserkergang. Their theme is pretty damn old school Norse.
Half Elf Skald
Half Orc Barbarian
Half Elf Ranger/Cleric
Human Dual Berserker 10/Cleric
Human Dual Berserker 10/Mage
Elf Fighter/Thief
This party was fun as hell, but I doubt I'd take it into HoF because the progression for most characters tops out very quickly. My Bard was level 30 well before I finished the main game, my Barbarian maxed out not all that long after and my Dual Classers are very nearly there. Even the Multiclass characters are quite far along their progression.
If the intention is pure Power and enjoying a long term progression for HoF (because not being able to level up in the middle of an XP Fest is kinda lame), then a party of Dual & Multi Classed Characters will be the way to go (perhaps with one or two Triple Classers).
Here's what I'd plan on running for raw Power in HoF:
Human Dual Berserker 13/Cleric
Human Dual Berserker 13/Mage
Half Orc Fighter/Cleric
Half Elf Ranger/Cleric
Gnome Fighter/Illusionist
Elf Fighter/Thief/Mage
Some general observations that will probably fall in line with most people's:
-Ranger/Cleric is given a lot of unexpected longevity by the way the Ranger/Druid Spell progression kicks in.... Iron Skins only show up quite late in their levelling experience, which really gives you something to look forward to. Given EVERYONE gets Rings of Free Action by endgame, Entangle also becomes a really great crowd control spell. It doesn't give you the same level of battlefield control that Web does, but for a cheap and cheerful level 1 spell it's insanely useful.
-The one reason I didn't run an Archer: There are just not enough good arrows available, and even with stacks of 80 you chew through 'em waaaaaay too fast. Both as a concept and as a tactical option, I love the idea of having a dedicated Archer. They ooze coolness. But the equipment available just doesn't make this viable for the long term. You need a melee/magic fallback to go with your ranged weapon.
-Bards are for singing. Bard Song in combo with Haste, Emotion and Priest Buffs = U DIE NAO. Single class rogue THAC0 is the definition of mediocrity.... but Skalding a rampant Barbarian or Berserker to a further +4 Hit and Damage... Priceless. Not enough to justify a HoF run, IMO, but still cool.
-Medium Armours mostly suck. My Barbarian went from having crappy, standard splint mail to suddenly having the Untouchable White Pimp Suit of Pwnage (also known as Frost Dragon Scale).... with nothing in between. It was literally one step from being a leper to being double axe wielding Elvis McJesus. Yes, there's Elven chain, but there other builds that get far more benefit from it.
-I thought I'd desperately miss not having an Inquisitor in the party... BG2 without Keldorn was a much, much harder game. Not the case in IWD. Paladins just don't have enough cool features to justify including one all the way through HoF, IMO. One (amazing) sword and some unique conversation options.... I can live without that for the versatility and long term progression from a Multi or Dual Warrior.
Rambling over.