The usual balance for powergamers is usually to make the early game (or even sometimes the mid-game) harder to make the game a breeze after you hit the spike in power. Dualing is tedious but its powerful.
Well, ... I usually keep it turned off, because invisibility only lasts 24 hours, and monsters can interrupt the resting (and the rememorizing of spells) even if the party is invisible. Then I can go somewhere else and try resting there ... or retreat to a known safe place. I want full control about how often to rest for only 8 hours each.
Also, at an inn you rent a room for one night (or at most 24 hours) and not many days. Unless you check "Heal on Rest" which makes that possible ... so, ... it made me curious whether players use that option to simplify the resting.
Too bad the early tasks in Easthaven are not timed quests.
In most games, the start of the game isn't so much harder than the later parts of the game. So sacrificing early game performance isn't going risk multiple game overs. That isn't the case with HoF.
Monster interruption is only checked once and will occur before invisibility runs out.
Roughly 27,000 XP per character at beginning of Kuldahar Pass.
Though, this time it hasn't been necessary to run away often, as I added a Thief3->Fighter as ranged attacker ... and a Fighter/Druid to meet my initial healing demands. It feels so good to have the druid cure wounds instead of throwing pebbles and missing often. Upon leaving the orc cave, the druid had access to Spike Growth.
Not really sure how throwing pebbles and missing often is any different from melee weapons.
Berserkers may only spend one pip on ranged weapon skills, ... and doing that would be a waste.
The berserkers have had some kills with their primary weapons ... warhammer resp. long sword ... 10-17 damage with long sword (THAC0 10) vs. 1-6 damage with longbow (THACO 14).
On the contrary, the dual thief->fighter skills longbows to GM ... as a substitute for a real Archer class.
After clearing Kuldahar Pass:
Thief3->Fighter percentage of total kills in party : 43% experience value of kills : 70960 number of kills : 65
Berserker (to become Mage) percentage of total kills in party : 21% experience value of kills : 33806 number of kills : 32
Fighter/Druid percentage of total kills in party : 15% experience value of kills : 26160 number of kills : 24
Berserker (to become Cleric) percentage of total kills in party : 13% experience value of kills : 22650 number of kills : 21
Sorcerer and Skald around 3%. Only damage the sorcerer has done so far is using MM and CO. Druid has been actively casting Spike Growth and Call Lightning already!
For those interested in stats: almost 62,000 XP per character after clearing the pass and canyon.
Composite Longbows deal 3-8 damage x2. The extra hit also means an extra application of the Skald's +2 damage. And since you're praising Spike Growth so much, Composite Longbows also hit enemies in the middle of Spike Growth without having the Berserker get killed from getting hit by 4d4 damage per growth per round.
Also Magic Missile in HoF? Wasting an entire cast to take away 4-10 HP out of a 100+ HP enemy? lol
L3, 3 Morning Star/Flails or Scimitars L6, 4 MS/F or Sc
L7 Dual class
L8 Cleric 5 MS/F or SC L12 Cleric 2 Dual Wield
Berserker> Mage
2 Long Swords 1 Long Bow 1 Dual Wield
Same progression except
L5 Mage, stop leveling, wait until the character has enough XP for Level 8
L8 Mage, use Proficiency from L6 to GM Long Swords L12 Mage, 2 Dual Wield
How exactly is 1 pip in Slings or Bows a waste? The only difference is that a Berserker dual that takes Bows/Slings will come out of the Dual Class downtime with 1 pip in Dual Wield, which will be corrected once the second class reaches Level 12.
The Berserker/Druid can even hold off on leveling to 4 and just wait until it has enough XP for Level 8, so the Proficiency it gets at Level 4 can be put into Dual Wield. Giving 5 Scimitar 2 Dual Wield 1 Sling once the Berserker class reactivates.
And there is no extra skill for that weapon. And the Thief->Fighter is using a composite longbow. 7-12 damage vs. 5-10 (longbow). What are you talking about?
And since you're praising Spike Growth so much, Composite Longbows also hit enemies in the middle of Spike Growth without having the Berserker get killed from getting hit by 4d4 damage per growth per round.
Wwwww...what?! The Berserker with the bow (not proficient with it) is trying to hit enemies in the field, but the berserker to become a cleric is standing around, waiting with his hammer for anyone to break through.
Also Magic Missile in HoF? Wasting an entire cast to take away 4-10 HP out of a 100+ HP enemy? lol
Even you ... oh, "godlike powergamer" ... have had Magic Missile in your sorcerer spell list "from a HoF point of view":
Now you'll complain that it's a thread from November'14, and your point of view has changed ... but who cares? Let's not return to the other thread that has been closed. Magic Missile still is popular and good against some enemies.
How exactly is 1 pip in Slings or Bows a waste?
At the beginning of the game: one pip more in the primary melee weapon the berserker is using.
You compared a War Hammer/Long Sword to a Long Bow. Why would a Berserker use a Longbow when it can use a Composite Long Bow.
but the berserker to become a cleric is standing around, waiting with his hammer for anyone to break through.
If the Sorcerer had been using Grease and Web instead of wasting its turns on Magic Missile, the chances of anything breaking through is next to slim. Especially when any enemy nearing the edge can be baited to go back into the middle by repositioning whoever their target is to the other side of the AoE.
Even you ... oh, "godlike powergamer" ... have had Magic Missile in your sorcerer spell list "from a HoF point of view":
It's an outdated list.
Hilariously, my new list is in this very topic.
Now you'll complain that it's a thread from November'14, and your point of view has changed ... but who cares?
Anyone smart enough to realize that points of view can change or that power gaming strategies will be fine tuned especially after 7 months of a game being out.
Let's not return to the other thread that has been closed. Magic Missile still is popular and good against some enemies.
Popularity means very little, this is about powergaming.
Which enemies exactly?
At the beginning of the game: one pip more in the primary melee weapon the berserker is using.
Fighters get 4 pips at the start of the game, but they can only put a maximum of 2 per proficiency. So how exactly will the primary melee weapon get less than 2.
Then you could have made clear what you're trying to point out. You've written it in a very ambiguous way.
"Bows" means not just "composite longbow". That extra attack is not specific to a composite longbow. You're asking for everyone in the party to equip a ranged weapon ... and possibly skill the weapon with a single pip even ... because that's how you like to combat the early enemies. That's not what I do with all party members.
You compared a War Hammer/Long Sword to a Long Bow.
*sigh* And it's true, because both berserkers are not proficient with bows, but have spent multiple points on their melee weapon skills. I've compared THAC0, too. They've been able to hold the line just fine in the orcs cave and at kuldahar pass canyon, too.
Why would a Berserker use a Longbow when it can use a Composite Long Bow.
Why would a berserker use a bow at all? The Thief3->Fighter so far is so much better at ranged combat.
If the Sorcerer had been using Grease and Web instead of wasting its turns on Magic Missile,
@elminster : Help! ... Would a moderator please teach you how to discuss? Nowhere have I written that my party's sorcerer would be casting Magic Missile instead of other spells like Grease or Web. It's always you who makes up such things. And that's not "smart". It's very annoying that you do that. My sorcerer has started with Grease and Chromatic Orb ... and indeed, stunning Ogres has been helpful again. Casting Magic Missile as another form of a ranged attack is no big difference from throwing pebbles. Still it's a safe way for the sorcerer do add some damage, ... regardless of whether there's an urgent need to do that. In the same way I give some enemies priority when targeting them with ranged attacks. Since you've crossed borders again, I won't answer the "which enemies exactly" question. I also throw skull traps due to lack of patience. When resting afterwards, no big deal.
the chances of anything breaking through is next to slim. Especially when any enemy nearing the edge can be baited to go back into the middle by repositioning whoever their target is to the other side of the AoE.
For that someone would need to be able to reach "the other side", and that's either not possible or not clever in various locations. The party has cleared Kuldahar Pass before Vale of Shadows, btw. It has not been necessary to run around and serve as bait ... just to have the weaker party members retreat a bit when I approached too quickly once or twice and even several Grease Web Stinking Cloud areas were no hurdle for a goblin marshall. That's when the two melee bodyguards are helpful, too. For the first crypt the druid has been able to summon allies.
It's an outdated list.
That tells a tale about your "lol".
Fighters get 4 pips at the start of the game, but they can only put a maximum of 2 per proficiency. So how exactly will the primary melee weapon get less than 2.
Melee 2 Pips Bow 1 Pip Dual Wield 1 Pip
It is not forbidden and not against any unwritten power-gaming rules to give a berserker->cleric two pips in s&s style and to give a berserker->mage two pips in dual-wielding to begin with. Goblin archers may still be able to hit the shielded berserker occasionally, ... so what? In the few cases that happened, the druid contributed some healing. It has worked well. It just didn't feel necessary to create more ranged attackers for this party. Not worthwhile.
Btw, the party didn't waste any ammunition when killing chickens either.
Stop blaming me for you not knowing something so basic a bows granting an extra APR.
because that's how you like to combat the early enemies. That's not what I do with all party members.
Since this is about powergaming, show how 1 point in a ranged weapon is unoptimal. I've already shown that 1 point in a ranged weapon can still have the dual class Fighter/Caster end up with a GM weapon and 2 points in dual wield early on in a HoF game, before it even matters.
Why would a berserker use a bow at all? The Thief3->Fighter so far is so much better at ranged combat.
Again, keeps them out of Spike Growth while still being able to deal damage to enemies in it. The game has multiple Composite Long Bows for sale, and selling the Wolf Pelt and gems that can be looted from Easthaven gives the player enough money to outfit at least 3 characters with them and still enough money to give one character armor.
I won't answer the "which enemies exactly" question
This topic is about powergaming. So which enemies is Magic Missile useful against?
That's when the two melee bodyguards are helpful, too.
And what exactly is stopping a Berserker using a Bow to switch to melee once enemies come close?
For the first crypt the druid has been able to summon allies.
Which makes ranged weapons even more useful
That tells a tale about your "lol".
As I said before it's an outdated list
to give a berserker->mage two pips in dual-wielding to begin with
So give a character that's in the front line, in HoF, during the early game, dual wielding? lol
Goblin archers may still be able to hit the shielded berserker occasionally, ... so what? In the few cases that happened, the druid contributed some healing.
And in the few cases this happens to a party without cure spells they can either camp or just go back to town and rest.
Oh and this is also something any party with a Fighter 3->Cleric or Druid can do too.
The best weapon for the Archer is the Longbow Bow+4: Hammer. But you'll need to kill an NPC in Lonelywood to get it. Which you're given the option to anyway. Before that any Bow that gives 3 APR. Before that the Composite Long Bow since it has the biggest damage bonus (+2)
Since this is a powergaming thread the best tank shouldn't be one that gives up way too much offensive capabilities.
The Dwarven Defender is stuck as a pure Fighter without GM. The Barbarian and Paladin loses GM too. And the Paladin takes longer to get Animate Dead.
Also later on all the Fighter/Spellcaster multi duals don't need a tank. Except against the final boss but the Fighter/Mage will still be able to tank with Spell Immunity Abjuration.
Avengers work better in a party full of spellcasters or, at the mos,t characters that are dedicated to range (like Archers). In a party with a lot of melee characters, Spike Growth and that other spell like it can't be protected against. Unlike the Sorcerer who can just use Protection from Fire/Acid/Magical Energy for their nukes.
Stop blaming me for you not knowing something so basic a bows granting an extra APR.
You're losing more and more reputation. I'm tired of you twisting words. Just because you like or prefer composite long bows ... or because you consider them "optimal" for your party by your own standards ... that does not imply I would not be aware of the number of attacks.
Such an insult is pathetic. You lack manners. Very unfortunate. Everything is displayed in a character's record. And what does it matter? The Thief3->Fighter is at 3 attacks per round already, and the berserkers at two with melee weapons. The same weapon skills they want to use later, too.
Since this is about powergaming
So what? Killing chickens for XP is not power-gaming? ... Once again, it is not you who defines what powergaming is or how far to go with powergaming. The topic is not "Ask Zyzzogeton about the only powergaming party you're permitted to create" ... The topic does not address you personally.
Again, keeps them out of Spike Growth while still being able to deal damage to enemies in it.
Not been necessary so far. They wait patiently and watch the fun. Again, it is not you who gives orders how to play the game or how to powergame it. There are other players that have presented different parties in this topic and the 3-4 characters topic. You argue too much.
The game has multiple Composite Long Bows for sale,
Not of any interest to a berserker->cleric.
As I said before it's an outdated list
I don't accept that as an excuse. It lists all level 1 spells you've liked at that time. The "new list" only lists a single spell. Grease. We've had the topic before. A sorcerer must learn more than one level 1 spell.
So give a character that's in the front line, in HoF, during the early game, dual wielding? lol
You don't need to agree with it, but it has worked well so far. No trouble with the Yetis, for example.
Accept it. Tolerate it. In the same way I'm free not to agree with some of "your ideas".
Comments
Also, at an inn you rent a room for one night (or at most 24 hours) and not many days. Unless you check "Heal on Rest" which makes that possible ... so, ... it made me curious whether players use that option to simplify the resting.
Too bad the early tasks in Easthaven are not timed quests.
Monster interruption is only checked once and will occur before invisibility runs out.
Roughly 27,000 XP per character at beginning of Kuldahar Pass.
Though, this time it hasn't been necessary to run away often, as I added a Thief3->Fighter as ranged attacker ... and a Fighter/Druid to meet my initial healing demands. It feels so good to have the druid cure wounds instead of throwing pebbles and missing often. Upon leaving the orc cave, the druid had access to Spike Growth.
Slings and Composite Bows have the same THAC0 and roughly the same damage range as melee weapons in the early game.
The berserkers have had some kills with their primary weapons ... warhammer resp. long sword ... 10-17 damage with long sword (THAC0 10) vs. 1-6 damage with longbow (THACO 14).
On the contrary, the dual thief->fighter skills longbows to GM ... as a substitute for a real Archer class.
After clearing Kuldahar Pass:
Thief3->Fighter
percentage of total kills in party : 43%
experience value of kills : 70960
number of kills : 65
Berserker (to become Mage)
percentage of total kills in party : 21%
experience value of kills : 33806
number of kills : 32
Fighter/Druid
percentage of total kills in party : 15%
experience value of kills : 26160
number of kills : 24
Berserker (to become Cleric)
percentage of total kills in party : 13%
experience value of kills : 22650
number of kills : 21
Sorcerer and Skald around 3%. Only damage the sorcerer has done so far is using MM and CO.
Druid has been actively casting Spike Growth and Call Lightning already!
For those interested in stats: almost 62,000 XP per character after clearing the pass and canyon.
Also Magic Missile in HoF? Wasting an entire cast to take away 4-10 HP out of a 100+ HP enemy? lol
Oh and
Berserker>Cleric or Druid
2 Morning Star/Flails or Scimitars
1 Sling (or Bow)
1 Dual Wield
L3, 3 Morning Star/Flails or Scimitars
L6, 4 MS/F or Sc
L7 Dual class
L8 Cleric 5 MS/F or SC
L12 Cleric 2 Dual Wield
Berserker> Mage
2 Long Swords
1 Long Bow
1 Dual Wield
Same progression except
L5 Mage, stop leveling, wait until the character has enough XP for Level 8
L8 Mage, use Proficiency from L6 to GM Long Swords
L12 Mage, 2 Dual Wield
How exactly is 1 pip in Slings or Bows a waste? The only difference is that a Berserker dual that takes Bows/Slings will come out of the Dual Class downtime with 1 pip in Dual Wield, which will be corrected once the second class reaches Level 12.
The Berserker/Druid can even hold off on leveling to 4 and just wait until it has enough XP for Level 8, so the Proficiency it gets at Level 4 can be put into Dual Wield. Giving 5 Scimitar 2 Dual Wield 1 Sling once the Berserker class reactivates.
And there is no extra skill for that weapon. And the Thief->Fighter is using a composite longbow. 7-12 damage vs. 5-10 (longbow). What are you talking about? Wwwww...what?! The Berserker with the bow (not proficient with it) is trying to hit enemies in the field, but the berserker to become a cleric is standing around, waiting with his hammer for anyone to break through. Even you ... oh, "godlike powergamer" ... have had Magic Missile in your sorcerer spell list "from a HoF point of view":
http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/36357/sorcerer-spells-in-iwd
Now you'll complain that it's a thread from November'14, and your point of view has changed ... but who cares? Let's not return to the other thread that has been closed.
Hilariously, my new list is in this very topic. Anyone smart enough to realize that points of view can change or that power gaming strategies will be fine tuned especially after 7 months of a game being out. Popularity means very little, this is about powergaming.
Which enemies exactly? Fighters get 4 pips at the start of the game, but they can only put a maximum of 2 per proficiency. So how exactly will the primary melee weapon get less than 2.
Melee 2 Pips
Bow 1 Pip
Dual Wield 1 Pip
"Bows" means not just "composite longbow". That extra attack is not specific to a composite longbow. You're asking for everyone in the party to equip a ranged weapon ... and possibly skill the weapon with a single pip even ... because that's how you like to combat the early enemies. That's not what I do with all party members. *sigh* And it's true, because both berserkers are not proficient with bows, but have spent multiple points on their melee weapon skills. I've compared THAC0, too. They've been able to hold the line just fine in the orcs cave and at kuldahar pass canyon, too. Why would a berserker use a bow at all? The Thief3->Fighter so far is so much better at ranged combat. @elminster : Help! ... Would a moderator please teach you how to discuss? Nowhere have I written that my party's sorcerer would be casting Magic Missile instead of other spells like Grease or Web. It's always you who makes up such things. And that's not "smart". It's very annoying that you do that. My sorcerer has started with Grease and Chromatic Orb ... and indeed, stunning Ogres has been helpful again. Casting Magic Missile as another form of a ranged attack is no big difference from throwing pebbles. Still it's a safe way for the sorcerer do add some damage, ... regardless of whether there's an urgent need to do that. In the same way I give some enemies priority when targeting them with ranged attacks. Since you've crossed borders again, I won't answer the "which enemies exactly" question. I also throw skull traps due to lack of patience. When resting afterwards, no big deal. For that someone would need to be able to reach "the other side", and that's either not possible or not clever in various locations. The party has cleared Kuldahar Pass before Vale of Shadows, btw. It has not been necessary to run around and serve as bait ... just to have the weaker party members retreat a bit when I approached too quickly once or twice and even several Grease Web Stinking Cloud areas were no hurdle for a goblin marshall. That's when the two melee bodyguards are helpful, too. For the first crypt the druid has been able to summon allies. That tells a tale about your "lol". It is not forbidden and not against any unwritten power-gaming rules to give a berserker->cleric two pips in s&s style and to give a berserker->mage two pips in dual-wielding to begin with. Goblin archers may still be able to hit the shielded berserker occasionally, ... so what? In the few cases that happened, the druid contributed some healing. It has worked well. It just didn't feel necessary to create more ranged attackers for this party. Not worthwhile.
Btw, the party didn't waste any ammunition when killing chickens either.
Oh and this is also something any party with a Fighter 3->Cleric or Druid can do too.
Best weapon for archer?
Berserker 1
2x Morning Star/Flails
1x Dual Wield
1x Long Bow
Berserker 3
3x Morning Star/Flails
Berserker 6
4x Morning Star/Flails
Cleric 1
1x Sling
1x whatever
Cleric 4
Whatever
Cleric 8
5x Morning Star Flails
Cleric 12
2x Dual Wield
The best weapon for the Archer is the Longbow Bow+4: Hammer. But you'll need to kill an NPC in Lonelywood to get it. Which you're given the option to anyway. Before that any Bow that gives 3 APR. Before that the Composite Long Bow since it has the biggest damage bonus (+2)
A little later, Animate Dead.
Later on, any Fighter/Mage dual or multi
Assuming a Fighter + Mage/Cleric/Druid setup
Mage gets Longswords, Cleric gets Morning Star/Flails, Druid gets Scimitars.
Is an avenger good enough or should I use a F/D ?
The Dwarven Defender is stuck as a pure Fighter without GM. The Barbarian and Paladin loses GM too. And the Paladin takes longer to get Animate Dead.
Also later on all the Fighter/Spellcaster multi duals don't need a tank. Except against the final boss but the Fighter/Mage will still be able to tank with Spell Immunity Abjuration.
Avengers work better in a party full of spellcasters or, at the mos,t characters that are dedicated to range (like Archers). In a party with a lot of melee characters, Spike Growth and that other spell like it can't be protected against. Unlike the Sorcerer who can just use Protection from Fire/Acid/Magical Energy for their nukes.
Are there enough scrolls for this one and a Bard?
Such an insult is pathetic. You lack manners. Very unfortunate. Everything is displayed in a character's record. And what does it matter? The Thief3->Fighter is at 3 attacks per round already, and the berserkers at two with melee weapons. The same weapon skills they want to use later, too. So what? Killing chickens for XP is not power-gaming? ... Once again, it is not you who defines what powergaming is or how far to go with powergaming. The topic is not "Ask Zyzzogeton about the only powergaming party you're permitted to create" ... The topic does not address you personally. Not been necessary so far. They wait patiently and watch the fun. Again, it is not you who gives orders how to play the game or how to powergame it. There are other players that have presented different parties in this topic and the 3-4 characters topic. You argue too much. Not of any interest to a berserker->cleric. I don't accept that as an excuse. It lists all level 1 spells you've liked at that time. The "new list" only lists a single spell. Grease. We've had the topic before. A sorcerer must learn more than one level 1 spell. You don't need to agree with it, but it has worked well so far. No trouble with the Yetis, for example.
Accept it. Tolerate it. In the same way I'm free not to agree with some of "your ideas".
by the way, do I need any patch for the game?
But, two melee mages will get enough scrolls and early enough to not matter much.
What are the benefits of playing any non-human except the stats?
(For singing and casting spells.)
Else wait what weapons you will find. Perhaps one with some worthwhile bonus.