I like Cloudkill, but I don't see it as game-changing. Like all spells, it is situation-specific, with the biggest drawback being that so many monsters are immune to its poison damage (or should be, I haven't tested everything). Yes you can get it in Dragon's Eye (if sorceror), but is it not useless in the Hand?
When Cloudkill is available it's pretty much the best option. When it isn't it gets replaced by another DoT. So what I'm comparing isn't Fire and Poison, it's single time damage that can be saved against vs DoT damage
Also 2 Sorcerers in 6 isn't a powergaming party to begin with.
If a powergaming party has 2 Sorcerers it might as well go full spellcaster (all Sorcs and Druids)\
But if a party has 2 Sorcerers it might as well go full DoT with those Sorcs using DoTs instead of flinging Fireballs, Skulltraps or other stuff that get saved against regularly.
Full plate and packing steel! Look out evil, heroes coming through! Lots of buffing involved. Absolutely everyone can fight in a pinch, so resting only when realistic is an option.
Ok...it isn't 2 sorcerors or double kensai dualing good. But it is very strong. Especially as IWD has melee heavy foes, and with 19 con being standard, they are more than able to handle it.
If that party's berserker or one of the DDs was replaced with a vanilla bard, I'd be willing to include it in my definition of powergaming. Stacking damage resistance and (minor) regeneration onto more damage resistance seems like a pretty strong strategy to me. I would agree that it's not a max-DPS style of powergaming, but more along the lines of a slow moving charge.
When Cloudkill is available it's pretty much the best option.
It's a level 5 spell. When Fireball, Skull Trap and other level 3 spells are available, they are a real nice opportunity to do lots of instant damage. No need to worry about magic resistant enemies anyway.
Also 2 Sorcerers in 6 isn't a powergaming party to begin with.
By definition, lots of other things involved in the creation of these parties and the advancement of the heroes is powergaming already. (repeating myself)
But if a party has 2 Sorcerers it might as well go full DoT with those Sorcs using DoTs instead of flinging Fireballs, Skulltraps or other stuff that get saved against regularly.
You cannot negate the damage, only 1/2 it. Look at the numbers! Still impressive and quick damage on everyone that's hit ... in addition to casting spells from other levels. No harming AoE is left afterwards, and the hack'n'slash compatible heroes can start their melee madness.
@Merina could you tell me how to build Thief3/Fighter character?
18 18 18 9(min) X X stats
Short bow * Any other weapon *
How much open locks and disarm traps on 3rd level?
You know if you don't like the thief class enough to have any more than some open locks and disable traps then I'd suggest to forgo one all together and instead rely on knock and brute force for locks and spell protections and healing for traps.
@Merina could you tell me how to build Thief3/Fighter character?
18 18 18 9(min) X X stats
Short bow * Any other weapon *
The starting weapon skills of the Thief don't matter ... shortbow+ is fine for the beginning. Once you dual-class to Fighter, you lose access to those skills till you're Fighter level 4 and reactivate the Thief abilities ... don't spend fighter points on the thief's deactivated skills. While being a Fighter, spend points on the weapon skills you want to use most of the time during the game. For example, if it will become a ranged fighter, work towards five points on longbows. Else your favourite melee weapon skills.
How much open locks and disarm traps on 3rd level?
Everything in Find Traps, so you reach 100 at level 3 thief. Your wizard/s can learn the Knock spell for the very few chests that cannot be opened forcefully by your strong fighters.
If you want the thief to open chests, it's possible to advance to Thief (or Swashbuckler) level 5 for Find Traps 100 and Open Locks 75. Or even Swashbuckler level 6 for Opens Locks 100, too. Then dual to Fighter. That way you lose some HP, and it takes longer ... it's much more fun to get the powerful fighter very early.
In my current party is a Swashbuckler 5 -> Fighter with Axes +++++ to test which locks need a higher skill than 75 to open them ... I guess Yxunomei's treasure.
@Merina could you tell me how to build Thief3/Fighter character?
18 18 18 9(min) X X stats
Short bow * Any other weapon *
The starting weapon skills of the Thief don't matter ... shortbow+ is fine for the beginning. Once you dual-class to Fighter, you lose access to those skills till you're Fighter level 4 and reactivate the Thief abilities ... don't spend fighter points on the thief's deactivated skills. While being a Fighter, spend points on the weapon skills you want to use most of the time during the game. For example, if it will become a ranged fighter, work towards five points on longbows. Else your favourite melee weapon skills.
How much open locks and disarm traps on 3rd level?
Everything in Find Traps, so you reach 100 at level 3 thief. Your wizard/s can learn the Knock spell for the very few chests that cannot be opened forcefully by your strong fighters.
If you want the thief to open chests, it's possible to advance to Thief (or Swashbuckler) level 5 for Find Traps 100 and Open Locks 75. Or even Swashbuckler level 6 for Opens Locks 100, too. Then dual to Fighter. That way you lose some HP, and it takes longer ... it's much more fun to get the powerful fighter very early.
In my current party is a Swashbuckler 5 -> Fighter with Axes +++++ to test which locks need a higher skill than 75 to open them ... I guess Yxunomei's treasure.
A fighter without a kit or exceptional strength doesn't seem like it'd pull it's weight. Why not a FMT thief as an alternative (mislead backstabs ftw) or just skip thief altogether (as we are talking about power gaming)?
If you want an archer character then why not an actual archer who does significantly more damage per arrow, gets special abilities and can cast Druid spells?
Decide yourself how far you wanna go with powergaming and metagaming.
I know some players use a cleric to find traps and then either move around the traps cautiously or trigger them after setting up the needed protections. That's only possible based on metagaming knowledge ... lots of earlier trial'n'error attempts ... save'n'reload ... just like multiple times to pickpocket items from friends. Skipping a thief altogether is only possible if you know you don't need the thieving abilities ... and if you're willing to deal with traps in a possibly more complicated way.
I also know players, who hate traps and who want to get rid of them as quickly as possible. An invisible thief is the way to go here.
Exceptional strength? A Thief 3->Fighter remains a pure warrior throughout the game, reaching a really low THAC0 and becoming a hitman. That's the whole point of creating such a hero. Reliable damage early.
STR 18 DEX 18 CON 18 and low INT/WIS/CHA is powergaming by definition already. If it must be STR higher than 19, sure, a cleric is superior but may spend time on casting other spells while the pure fighter is busy in combat. Also not forget potions, which the hero may want to drink. If nobody else in the party is the leader, rolling the dice as time permits makes it possible to get an additional CHA 18. Maxing out attributes is powergaming.
Powergaming strategies do not mandate that you must sacrifice power and abilities at any point of the game. Not early, and not endgame either. Guess why I also give a try a party without sorcerers and without a bard/skald.
Not skilling ranged weapons means you will be more weak during the early HoF mode game. That's when you need to run away from goblins, orcs and ogres ... so they don't get a chance to hit you. It is a suicide mission to engage four ogres in melee combat. Only with hit'n'run you can defeat them. Kill one ogre, flee to Easthaven, return to kill another one. Whether that's still powergaming is doubtful. It's more metagaming ... exploiting the limitations of the game AI. It's only the flood of XP that makes this possible ... as you advance fast enough to get stronger quickly.
Imagine the game developers had made the orcs and ogres attack Easthaven.
A ranged fighter is only as good as the ammo that's available. With cheap normal arrows one can hit hundreds of enemies and do reliable damage. With metagaming knowledge you can plan ahead for the returning throwing axe +2. Not as fast as a longbow, but enchanted as necessary to hit more enemies.
An Archer sacrifices heavy armor and melee skills. It is a standard ranger kit that doesn't involve any powergaming. Just like adding a Skald to the party is not powergaming yet either.
A FMT develops too slowly in my point of view. Too many multi-class characters make the early HoF game much more difficult.
@Wowo Is Mislead with a FMT really helpful and efficient also in HoF mode games? Can you tell a bit more? There are so many encounters where you face a whole angry mob ... isn't it much more obvious to cast other spells that are more helpful?
Decide yourself how far you wanna go with powergaming and metagaming.
I know some players use a cleric to find traps and then either move around the traps cautiously or trigger them after setting up the needed protections. That's only possible based on metagaming knowledge ... lots of earlier trial'n'error attempts ... save'n'reload ... just like multiple times to pickpocket items from friends. Skipping a thief altogether is only possible if you know you don't need the thieving abilities ... and if you're willing to deal with traps in a possibly more complicated way.
I also know players, who hate traps and who want to get rid of them as quickly as possible. An invisible thief is the way to go here.
Exceptional strength? A Thief 3->Fighter remains a pure warrior throughout the game, reaching a really low THAC0 and becoming a hitman. That's the whole point of creating such a hero. Reliable damage early.
STR 18 DEX 18 CON 18 and low INT/WIS/CHA is powergaming by definition already. If it must be STR higher than 19, sure, a cleric is superior but may spend time on casting other spells while the pure fighter is busy in combat. Also not forget potions, which the hero may want to drink. If nobody else in the party is the leader, rolling the dice as time permits makes it possible to get an additional CHA 18. Maxing out attributes is powergaming.
Powergaming strategies do not mandate that you must sacrifice power and abilities at any point of the game. Not early, and not endgame either. Guess why I also give a try a party without sorcerers and without a bard/skald.
Not skilling ranged weapons means you will be more weak during the early HoF mode game. That's when you need to run away from goblins, orcs and ogres ... so they don't get a chance to hit you. It is a suicide mission to engage four ogres in melee combat. Only with hit'n'run you can defeat them. Kill one ogre, flee to Easthaven, return to kill another one. Whether that's still powergaming is doubtful. It's more metagaming ... exploiting the limitations of the game AI. It's only the flood of XP that makes this possible ... as you advance fast enough to get stronger quickly.
Imagine the game developers had made the orcs and ogres attack Easthaven.
A ranged fighter is only as good as the ammo that's available. With cheap normal arrows one can hit hundreds of enemies and do reliable damage. With metagaming knowledge you can plan ahead for the returning throwing axe +2. Not as fast as a longbow, but enchanted as necessary to hit more enemies.
An Archer sacrifices heavy armor and melee skills. It is a standard ranger kit that doesn't involve any powergaming. Just like adding a Skald to the party is not powergaming yet either.
A FMT develops too slowly in my point of view. Too many multi-class characters make the early HoF game much more difficult.
@Wowo Is Mislead with a FMT really helpful and efficient also in HoF mode games? Can you tell a bit more? There are so many encounters where you face a whole angry mob ... isn't it much more obvious to cast other spells that are more helpful?
Mislead let's your FMT (or MT) get backstabs on every hit. When you have 10 attacks per round this results in your FMT being able to do more than 1000 damage each round while never being targeted.
In my current HoF game without the insane xp bonus my FMT has already transitioned to dual longswords as it's much more damage than longbow with 18/00 strength (courtesy of strength spell) and most fights are managed with web and summons and Mage defenses handle any issues.
The idea of "slow development" isn't really relevant to the functions that matter for a FMT. Thief skills develop fast enough to handle all traps and locks (and continue to develop to handle illusions, scouting and pocket picking) and fighter skills develop enough to be a competent ranged or melee combatant. Mage spells develop slowly but each and every spell is basically a freebie on top of handling the fighting and thieving skills that are desired.
Skald is a great power gaming option for the AC bonus that let's you push your whole parties AC low enough to be able to go teo to toe with trash without taking many or any hits.
How is a Dwarven Defender powergaming? No STR / Damage buffs from Cleric, no early Spikegrowth from Druid. No Grandmastery.
Never underestimate a Dwarven Defender! Even solo with no party buffs they can become immense powerhouses. Their insane HP and damage mitigation, means they are able to soak up damage like no other.
On top of that they get some of, if not the best saving throws in the game, thanks to the shorty bonuses and their enhanced dwarven CON score (Defensive stance, knocks the saving throws up even further!). At high levels, your DD will shrug off most negative effects easily.
Properly geared defensive stance can also push you over 100% damage resistance.
That screenshot is solo, the only self buff being Defensive Stance. Now imagine being in a party with bard, cleric and mage buffs! Even Heart of Fury characters would struggle to take that tank down!
You can argue that figher/mages can make better tanks, but that requires far too much micromanagement and constant buffing for my liking. I like being able to just rush in and soak up damage right from the bat, popping off defensive stance only if things are getting desperate.
EDIT: If you haven't noticed I am biased. Dwarves are my favourite race, and Dwarven Defender my favourite class! I always have one in my party. (Thanks Beamdog! made my year adding them as playable!)
Mislead let's your FMT (or MT) get backstabs on every hit. When you have 10 attacks per round this results in your FMT being able to do more than 1000 damage each round while never being targeted.
That doesn't answer the question. When do you use it? Mislead doesn't last long. Do you hide your party in the distance or use them do distract the enemies? 10 attacks needs Haste or Improved Haste (a level 6 spell just like Mislead). That requires casting two spells on the FMT to begin with.
For a single level 6 spell, that's FMT 11/12/13 = three times 750,000 XP ... somewhere far into Lower Dorn's Deep or HoW. If it's a bard that castes Impr.Haste, that level 16 (or level 18 for two spells) and also within Dorn's Deep.
I wonder when I will find a Mislead scroll for my mages? Currently it's Dragon's Eye dungeon 3, and so far it's somewhat more difficult without the arcane power of two sorcerers. That's a known problem ... but I've not created this new party by accident. It's played differently.
Replacing the F/M with a FMT would not be a huge change for a future runthrough. Perhaps I could then exchange the freed T->F with something completely different ...
The idea of "slow development" isn't really relevant to the functions that matter for a FMT.
So? When will it be useful throughout the game? You can't wear armor without blocking the casting ability. That's like with a Fighter/Mage but with even slower development at the beginning of the game where all melee/ranged damage output matters.
Skald is a great power gaming option for the AC bonus that let's you push your whole parties AC low enough to be able to go teo to toe with trash without taking many or any hits.
A Skald is just a standard bard kit, which the game offers to everyone. It's not powergaming by definition. Just like casting DUHM is not powergaming. Powergaming involves things like sacrifying common skills, abilities and attributes in favor of something that breaks the balance ... and planning ahead for specific items (rare ones or exotic ones, for example) to greatly increase a hero's power at the cost of role-playing.
I've played bards often enough. I'm familiar with their songs ... and their arcane abilities.
Mislead let's your FMT (or MT) get backstabs on every hit. When you have 10 attacks per round this results in your FMT being able to do more than 1000 damage each round while never being targeted.
That doesn't answer the question. When do you use it? Mislead doesn't last long. Do you hide your party in the distance or use them do distract the enemies? 10 attacks needs Haste or Improved Haste (a level 6 spell just like Mislead). That requires casting two spells on the FMT to begin with.
For a single level 6 spell, that's FMT 11/12/13 = three times 750,000 XP ... somewhere far into Lower Dorn's Deep or HoW. If it's a bard that castes Impr.Haste, that level 16 (or level 18 for two spells) and also within Dorn's Deep.
I wonder when I will find a Mislead scroll for my mages? Currently it's Dragon's Eye dungeon 3, and so far it's somewhat more difficult without the arcane power of two sorcerers. That's a known problem ... but I've not created this new party by accident. It's played differently.
Replacing the F/M with a FMT would not be a huge change for a future runthrough. Perhaps I could then exchange the freed T->F with something completely different ...
The idea of "slow development" isn't really relevant to the functions that matter for a FMT.
So? When will it be useful throughout the game? You can't wear armor without blocking the casting ability. That's like with a Fighter/Mage but with even slower development at the beginning of the game where all melee/ranged damage output matters.
Skald is a great power gaming option for the AC bonus that let's you push your whole parties AC low enough to be able to go teo to toe with trash without taking many or any hits.
A Skald is just a standard bard kit, which the game offers to everyone. It's not powergaming by definition. Just like casting DUHM is not powergaming. Powergaming involves things like sacrifying common skills, abilities and attributes in favor of something that breaks the balance ... and planning ahead for specific items (rare ones or exotic ones, for example) to greatly increase a hero's power at the cost of role-playing.
I've played bards often enough. I'm familiar with their songs ... and their arcane abilities.
You can buy a mislead scroll in HoW I'm 95% sure which is accessible when the party reaches level 9.
Using it easy, pop it and go to town, it is a truly insane amount of damage. Once it's active enemies won't target the character so you just position the character behind enemies and slaughter them with every hit doing 100+ damage. It'll often be the only level 6 spell memorised and it will be used as often as possible.
2.25million xp is quite a lot though there is about twice that amount if xp in HoW on HoF mods and heaps more in the main campaign so it's not a big deal. I'll have to see how soon I get there in my current half xp run though.
Skald is power gaming when you are aware that -15 AC mitigates most incoming damage and the skald kit is chosen to reach that figure for almost the whole party. Also adding up to 360 damage per round from the song is nice. Finally, it's a nice strategy to manage low thac0 values during a dual class. This is all power gaming.
Skald is power gaming when you are aware that -15 AC mitigates most incoming damage and the skald kit is chosen to reach that figure for almost the whole party. Also adding up to 360 damage per round from the song is nice. Finally, it's a nice strategy to manage low thac0 values during a dual class. This is all power gaming.
The Skald song is the same for every Skald. There is no powergaming involved at all. The Skald is a Skald is a Skald is a Skald. It would be powergaming, if the human player could influence the Skald's power with skills, attributes, abilities, items. That's not the case.
What you really mean is that you consider a party more powerful, if a Skald is contributing. That's okay.
Skald is power gaming when you are aware that -15 AC mitigates most incoming damage and the skald kit is chosen to reach that figure for almost the whole party. Also adding up to 360 damage per round from the song is nice. Finally, it's a nice strategy to manage low thac0 values during a dual class. This is all power gaming.
The Skald song is the same for every Skald. There is no powergaming involved at all. The Skald is a Skald is a Skald is a Skald. It would be powergaming, if the human player could influence the Skald's power with skills, attributes, abilities, items. That's not the case.
What you really mean is that you consider a party more powerful, if a Skald is contributing. That's okay.
I think maybe you should think about what power gaming means to you and then perhaps consider that it means something different to other people. For instance, Wikipedia's definition fits perfectly with how I see power gaming.
One would need to read much between the lines to call picking a basic Skald powergaming based on that. Wikipedia mentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms#Min-Maxing ... which in IWDEE is done via attributes and early dual-classing to reach GM for heroes that would otherwise only become proficient with some weapon skill. Example: Creating a Berserker 2 -> Cleric is the simplest form of powergaming. Even more so with a min-maxed attributes and a higher Berserker level.
Simply adding a Skald to a party isn't powergaming. If extending the creation of "optimal PCs" to cover the full party, a Skald alone doesn't make the entire party optimal either, since a poor fighter remains a poor fighter even under the effect of the Skald's song. Singing the song doesn't make anything "optimal" ... just a bit better and a little more better at high levels. That's only one tiny step when buffing the party.
The sum of the effects of divine spells, arcane spells, Rage, Kai, Aura of Despair, other abilities and equipped items would be optimal. A Skald adds just a bit to the puzzle.
One would need to read much between the lines to call picking a basic Skald powergaming based on that. Wikipedia mentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms#Min-Maxing ... which in IWDEE is done via attributes and early dual-classing to reach GM for heroes that would otherwise only become proficient with some weapon skill. Example: Creating a Berserker 2 -> Cleric is the simplest form of powergaming. Even more so with a min-maxed attributes and a higher Berserker level.
Simply adding a Skald to a party isn't powergaming. If extending the creation of "optimal PCs" to cover the full party, a Skald alone doesn't make the entire party optimal either, since a poor fighter remains a poor fighter even under the effect of the Skald's song. Singing the song doesn't make anything "optimal" ... just a bit better and a little more better at high levels. That's only one tiny step when buffing the party.
The sum of the effects of divine spells, arcane spells, Rage, Kai, Aura of Despair, other abilities and equipped items would be optimal. A Skald adds just a bit to the puzzle.
This is a bit silly. Power gaming is all about doing everything necessary to progress through the game as efficiently as possible.
Skald is a natural choice for a pure power gaming party in HoF mode due to the low thac0 of enemies and high HP pools giving the opportunity to maximise the benefit of their unique buff in the right party.
Dualing a character at level two isn't effective power gaming as the missing half APR will often lead to a 10 or 20% damage output deficit which simply isn't optimal.
Most of the other effects that you mention are very short in duration and hardly qualify as power gaming in a HoF party.
Dualing a character at level two isn't effective power gaming
*sigh*
What in "even more so with ... a higher Berserker level" did you not understand?
I did not claim that dualing at Berserker level 2 would be "optimal". It is powergaming already by definition ... just that one would rather dual at levels 3, 7 or 9 ... with 13 becoming a late show.
Speaking of power gaming I can certainly reconfirm the benefits of starting HoW as soon as your party is able to transition there (level 9 according to some websites). There is heaps of free and easy Xp along with some great items and spell scrolls including 2 copies of the coveted Cloudkill (others include IH, Mislead and Spider Spawn).
Interesting to note that a Mage can gain access to Cloudkill before a sorcerer using this approach.
Leaving HoW to return to the main quest is a little tricky but only requires one fight to be completed with Mebdinga and her wailing virgins. It is actually possible to avoid it all together via invisibility and haste but for my part I found it simple enough to kite them while invisible to the choke point outside of the tower and then wear them down with spike growth, web and fireballs with skeletons to tie them up. Don't forget Deathward!
Spending under an hour exploring Lonelywood and surrounds netted a few million xp for the party so all duals are complete and the party comes back to complete Dragon Eye with 5 casts of cloudkill per day and 5 strong warriors along with the entire party sitting at -10 or better AC.
I'm enjoying the half xp challenge but I think it's going to get easy from here.
That would be also metagaming and not just powergaming ...
since you rely on the knowledge that you can return to Kuldahar after freeing Hjollder, and you do it for special items you know you will get.
Half XP mode also could be the reason why to start HoW early. Is Burial Isle so much easier than Dragon's Eye? When I read "to kite them while invisible" ... aarrrgh, that doesn't sound like fun.
At full XP mode, Dragon's Eye is low-hanging fruit for an average party. Even for the six dual/multi warriors I give a try. All classes have been reactivated already. Strategy so far is very basic and mostly involves buffing allies and debuffing enemies. For the fun a bit of spike growth, skull trap and ice storm. The lack of mage scrolls isn't bad so far. AC is -13 for the Swashbuckler 5->Fighter (back at Kuldahar) and -9 for the stronger one of the two Berserker->Clerics. AC -9 alone is not on the safe side deep in Dragon's Eye.
Still, the final fight had an even easier feeling than with two sorcerers.
Openlocks 75 is enough for Yxuomei's chests, but not enough for Geelo's private room.
That would be also metagaming and not just powergaming ...
since you rely on the knowledge that you can return to Kuldahar after freeing Hjollder, and you do it for special items you know you will get.
Half XP mode also could be the reason why to start HoW early. Is Burial Isle so much easier than Dragon's Eye? When I read "to kite them while invisible" ... aarrrgh, that doesn't sound like fun.
At full XP mode, Dragon's Eye is low-hanging fruit for an average party. Even for the six dual/multi warriors I give a try. All classes have been reactivated already. Strategy so far is very basic and mostly involves buffing allies and debuffing enemies. For the fun a bit of spike growth, skull trap and ice storm. The lack of mage scrolls isn't bad so far. AC is -13 for the Swashbuckler 5->Fighter (back at Kuldahar) and -9 for the stronger one of the two Berserker->Clerics. AC -9 alone is not on the safe side deep in Dragon's Eye.
Still, the final fight had an even easier feeling than with two sorcerers.
Openlocks 75 is enough for Yxuomei's chests, but not enough for Geelo's private room.
I found it reasonably easy this time around due to previous experiences. Mebdinga initiates conversation with invisible characters and wailing virgins start the chase after this conversation. Having one character get close for the conversation and then bolt back to the tower worked fine. All the wailing virgins ended up just outside the cave entrance and I pulled them with a fireball to the choke point with lots of skeletons, spike growths and fireballs to greet them (I decided this was a good place to exhaust the necklace of missiles).
Certainly Dragons Eye is easier overall but completing this one fight netted over 2 million xp, level 5 spell scrolls and some important items. I can also return whenever necessary to pick up new spell scrolls as the mages level up (there are choice picks all the way to level 9).
My parties AC currently: Berserker7/Cleric10: -12 (17% of kills) Kensei9/Mage10: -15 (24% of kills) Kensei9/Druid12: -11 (29% of kills) F8M9T10: -13 (22% of kills) Ill9/Cler10: -13 (-18 in sword spider form)(5% of kills)
This is not including Defensive Harmony, Rage, Entropy Shield, Recitation, Prayer or Chant (which I load in a Minor Sequencer).
@Wowo : so, you've raised my interest ... and thus I've talked to Hjollder after returning from Dragon's Keep. That's at around 810,xxx XP per character ... level 11 for the primary class.
Well, what to say? I don't have any notes about Burial Isle. It took some time to explore the Barrows and notice that that those Barrow Wights and Wailing Virgins respawn after resting on the isle or at Lonelywood. At level 11 HoF one doesn't have the power to clear the entire Barrows map before confronting Mebdinga. Making the party invisible is important. Or else can one spend a lot of time on always the same encounters.
Mebdinga isn't much of a problem. I didn't flee but approached her from the left side. No fireballs memorized. So Skull Trap, Spike Growth, Spike Stones, hasted summons did a lot of the work. The party helped with ranged attacks.
Afterwards I asked Hjollder to return me to Kuldahar. 700,000 XP in total per character for this bit of HoW. A couple of scrolls, a very few items only. Nothing spectacular.
Percentage of kills so far: Sw5->F 21% B9->Cl 15% B7->Cl 14% F/M 19% F9->M 14% F/D 15%
Pretty even except for the Swashy ... wielding my favorite returning throwing axe when doing ranged combat. The F/M is second because of longbow++ skill and usage. Everything's fine so far. That's exactly the plan with this party.
Now I know the name of the special club I've mentioned: Svian's Club +5, speed 1 Perhaps even a 100% find within the Barrows.
@Wowo : so, you've raised my interest ... and thus I've talked to Hjollder after returning from Dragon's Keep. That's at around 810,xxx XP per character ... level 11 for the primary class.
Well, what to say? I don't have any notes about Burial Isle. It took some time to explore the Barrows and notice that that those Barrow Wights and Wailing Virgins respawn after resting on the isle or at Lonelywood. At level 11 HoF one doesn't have the power to clear the entire Barrows map before confronting Mebdinga. Making the party invisible is important. Or else can one spend a lot of time on always the same encounters.
Mebdinga isn't much of a problem. I didn't flee but approached her from the left side. No fireballs memorized. So Skull Trap, Spike Growth, Spike Stones, hasted summons did a lot of the work. The party helped with ranged attacks.
Afterwards I asked Hjollder to return me to Kuldahar. 700,000 XP in total per character for this bit of HoW. A couple of scrolls, a very few items only. Nothing spectacular.
Percentage of kills so far: Sw5->F 21% B9->Cl 15% B7->Cl 14% F/M 19% F9->M 14% F/D 15%
Pretty even except for the Swashy ... wielding my favorite returning throwing axe when doing ranged combat. The F/M is second because of longbow++ skill and usage. Everything's fine so far. That's exactly the plan with this party.
Now I know the name of the special club I've mentioned: Svian's Club +5, speed 1 Perhaps even a 100% find within the Barrows.
I started to find that my FMT with Longbow** started to pay behind by the beginning of Dragon's Eye compared to the two kensei's. Swapping him to the two +2 long swords has definitely helped him especially as that confusion effect is so powerful. Still use bow sometimes and will swap back more often once I get the Sseth bow.
Svian's club is 100% yes.
How many APR does your party have? What's the average damage do you think?
Level 3 spells and Level 5 spells are only separated by the second half of Chapter 1.
If anything Haste, Invisibility 10' Radius, are better uses of a Level 3 slot.
Two Sorcerers is less efficient powergaming because that other Sorcerer could easily be a Skald to buff the Fighters damage. Adding a Skald to a Two Sorcerer party means only 3 Fighters.
On the other hand a full spellcaster party won't need a Skald since all it'll be buffing is summons.
I'm not underestimating the Dwarven Defender. I know what they're capable of. Which is being resistant to damage. And what they're capable of is replicated by Fighter/Spellcasters. Mirror Image, Stone Skin, Iron Skin, that spell which regens a ton of HP per round, Armor of Faith, etc. At some point in practically every HoF game I've played, I simply stop using summons and disabling spells because of how unkillable a Fighter/Spellcaster is. So as far as what a Dwarven Defender brings to a powergaming party, the Fighter/Spellcasters already reach that point.
Early game a Dwarven Defender's effect is duplicated by summons. They're not affected by the double damage rule and have way more HP than a Dwarven Defender. And if they die it's no big loss as another set can be summoned anyway.
Fighter/Spellcastrs have the extra advantage of GM (at least the duals) and other spell buffs which improve damage (Tensers, Draw Upon Holy Might, Righetous Magic)
Comments
When Cloudkill is available it's pretty much the best option. When it isn't it gets replaced by another DoT. So what I'm comparing isn't Fire and Poison, it's single time damage that can be saved against vs DoT damage
Also 2 Sorcerers in 6 isn't a powergaming party to begin with.
If a powergaming party has 2 Sorcerers it might as well go full spellcaster (all Sorcs and Druids)\
But if a party has 2 Sorcerers it might as well go full DoT with those Sorcs using DoTs instead of flinging Fireballs, Skulltraps or other stuff that get saved against regularly.
Dwarven defender
Dwarven defender
Berserker-Dwarf
Fighter/Cleric-Dwarf
Fighter/Thief-Dwarf
Fighter/Mage-Gnome
Full plate and packing steel! Look out evil, heroes coming through! Lots of buffing involved. Absolutely everyone can fight in a pinch, so resting only when realistic is an option.
Ok...it isn't 2 sorcerors or double kensai dualing good. But it is very strong. Especially as IWD has melee heavy foes, and with 19 con being standard, they are more than able to handle it.
18 18 18 9(min) X X stats
Short bow *
Any other weapon *
How much open locks and disarm traps on 3rd level?
@manero The starting weapon skills of the Thief don't matter ... shortbow+ is fine for the beginning. Once you dual-class to Fighter, you lose access to those skills till you're Fighter level 4 and reactivate the Thief abilities ... don't spend fighter points on the thief's deactivated skills. While being a Fighter, spend points on the weapon skills you want to use most of the time during the game. For example, if it will become a ranged fighter, work towards five points on longbows. Else your favourite melee weapon skills. Everything in Find Traps, so you reach 100 at level 3 thief. Your wizard/s can learn the Knock spell for the very few chests that cannot be opened forcefully by your strong fighters.
If you want the thief to open chests, it's possible to advance to Thief (or Swashbuckler) level 5 for Find Traps 100 and Open Locks 75. Or even Swashbuckler level 6 for Opens Locks 100, too. Then dual to Fighter. That way you lose some HP, and it takes longer ... it's much more fun to get the powerful fighter very early.
In my current party is a Swashbuckler 5 -> Fighter with Axes +++++ to test which locks need a higher skill than 75 to open them ... I guess Yxunomei's treasure.
If you want the thief to open chests, it's possible to advance to Thief (or Swashbuckler) level 5 for Find Traps 100 and Open Locks 75. Or even Swashbuckler level 6 for Opens Locks 100, too. Then dual to Fighter. That way you lose some HP, and it takes longer ... it's much more fun to get the powerful fighter very early.
In my current party is a Swashbuckler 5 -> Fighter with Axes +++++ to test which locks need a higher skill than 75 to open them ... I guess Yxunomei's treasure.
A fighter without a kit or exceptional strength doesn't seem like it'd pull it's weight. Why not a FMT thief as an alternative (mislead backstabs ftw) or just skip thief altogether (as we are talking about power gaming)?
If you want an archer character then why not an actual archer who does significantly more damage per arrow, gets special abilities and can cast Druid spells?
I know some players use a cleric to find traps and then either move around the traps cautiously or trigger them after setting up the needed protections. That's only possible based on metagaming knowledge ... lots of earlier trial'n'error attempts ... save'n'reload ... just like multiple times to pickpocket items from friends. Skipping a thief altogether is only possible if you know you don't need the thieving abilities ... and if you're willing to deal with traps in a possibly more complicated way.
I also know players, who hate traps and who want to get rid of them as quickly as possible. An invisible thief is the way to go here.
Exceptional strength? A Thief 3->Fighter remains a pure warrior throughout the game, reaching a really low THAC0 and becoming a hitman. That's the whole point of creating such a hero. Reliable damage early.
STR 18 DEX 18 CON 18 and low INT/WIS/CHA is powergaming by definition already. If it must be STR higher than 19, sure, a cleric is superior but may spend time on casting other spells while the pure fighter is busy in combat. Also not forget potions, which the hero may want to drink. If nobody else in the party is the leader, rolling the dice as time permits makes it possible to get an additional CHA 18. Maxing out attributes is powergaming.
Powergaming strategies do not mandate that you must sacrifice power and abilities at any point of the game. Not early, and not endgame either. Guess why I also give a try a party without sorcerers and without a bard/skald.
Not skilling ranged weapons means you will be more weak during the early HoF mode game. That's when you need to run away from goblins, orcs and ogres ... so they don't get a chance to hit you. It is a suicide mission to engage four ogres in melee combat. Only with hit'n'run you can defeat them. Kill one ogre, flee to Easthaven, return to kill another one. Whether that's still powergaming is doubtful. It's more metagaming ... exploiting the limitations of the game AI. It's only the flood of XP that makes this possible ... as you advance fast enough to get stronger quickly.
Imagine the game developers had made the orcs and ogres attack Easthaven.
A ranged fighter is only as good as the ammo that's available. With cheap normal arrows one can hit hundreds of enemies and do reliable damage. With metagaming knowledge you can plan ahead for the returning throwing axe +2. Not as fast as a longbow, but enchanted as necessary to hit more enemies.
An Archer sacrifices heavy armor and melee skills. It is a standard ranger kit that doesn't involve any powergaming. Just like adding a Skald to the party is not powergaming yet either.
A FMT develops too slowly in my point of view. Too many multi-class characters make the early HoF game much more difficult.
@Wowo
Is Mislead with a FMT really helpful and efficient also in HoF mode games? Can you tell a bit more? There are so many encounters where you face a whole angry mob ... isn't it much more obvious to cast other spells that are more helpful?
In my current HoF game without the insane xp bonus my FMT has already transitioned to dual longswords as it's much more damage than longbow with 18/00 strength (courtesy of strength spell) and most fights are managed with web and summons and Mage defenses handle any issues.
The idea of "slow development" isn't really relevant to the functions that matter for a FMT. Thief skills develop fast enough to handle all traps and locks (and continue to develop to handle illusions, scouting and pocket picking) and fighter skills develop enough to be a competent ranged or melee combatant. Mage spells develop slowly but each and every spell is basically a freebie on top of handling the fighting and thieving skills that are desired.
Skald is a great power gaming option for the AC bonus that let's you push your whole parties AC low enough to be able to go teo to toe with trash without taking many or any hits.
On top of that they get some of, if not the best saving throws in the game, thanks to the shorty bonuses and their enhanced dwarven CON score (Defensive stance, knocks the saving throws up even further!). At high levels, your DD will shrug off most negative effects easily.
Properly geared defensive stance can also push you over 100% damage resistance.
That screenshot is solo, the only self buff being Defensive Stance. Now imagine being in a party with bard, cleric and mage buffs! Even Heart of Fury characters would struggle to take that tank down!
You can argue that figher/mages can make better tanks, but that requires far too much micromanagement and constant buffing for my liking. I like being able to just rush in and soak up damage right from the bat, popping off defensive stance only if things are getting desperate.
EDIT: If you haven't noticed I am biased. Dwarves are my favourite race, and Dwarven Defender my favourite class! I always have one in my party. (Thanks Beamdog! made my year adding them as playable!)
For a single level 6 spell, that's FMT 11/12/13 = three times 750,000 XP ... somewhere far into Lower Dorn's Deep or HoW. If it's a bard that castes Impr.Haste, that level 16 (or level 18 for two spells) and also within Dorn's Deep.
I wonder when I will find a Mislead scroll for my mages? Currently it's Dragon's Eye dungeon 3, and so far it's somewhat more difficult without the arcane power of two sorcerers. That's a known problem ... but I've not created this new party by accident. It's played differently.
Replacing the F/M with a FMT would not be a huge change for a future runthrough. Perhaps I could then exchange the freed T->F with something completely different ...
IWD2 at HoF is on the todo list first.
I've played bards often enough. I'm familiar with their songs ... and their arcane abilities.
Using it easy, pop it and go to town, it is a truly insane amount of damage. Once it's active enemies won't target the character so you just position the character behind enemies and slaughter them with every hit doing 100+ damage. It'll often be the only level 6 spell memorised and it will be used as often as possible.
2.25million xp is quite a lot though there is about twice that amount if xp in HoW on HoF mods and heaps more in the main campaign so it's not a big deal. I'll have to see how soon I get there in my current half xp run though.
Skald is power gaming when you are aware that -15 AC mitigates most incoming damage and the skald kit is chosen to reach that figure for almost the whole party. Also adding up to 360 damage per round from the song is nice. Finally, it's a nice strategy to manage low thac0 values during a dual class. This is all power gaming.
What you really mean is that you consider a party more powerful, if a Skald is contributing. That's okay.
One would need to read much between the lines to call picking a basic Skald powergaming based on that. Wikipedia mentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms#Min-Maxing ... which in IWDEE is done via attributes and early dual-classing to reach GM for heroes that would otherwise only become proficient with some weapon skill. Example: Creating a Berserker 2 -> Cleric is the simplest form of powergaming. Even more so with a min-maxed attributes and a higher Berserker level.
Simply adding a Skald to a party isn't powergaming. If extending the creation of "optimal PCs" to cover the full party, a Skald alone doesn't make the entire party optimal either, since a poor fighter remains a poor fighter even under the effect of the Skald's song. Singing the song doesn't make anything "optimal" ... just a bit better and a little more better at high levels. That's only one tiny step when buffing the party.
The sum of the effects of divine spells, arcane spells, Rage, Kai, Aura of Despair, other abilities and equipped items would be optimal. A Skald adds just a bit to the puzzle.
Skald is a natural choice for a pure power gaming party in HoF mode due to the low thac0 of enemies and high HP pools giving the opportunity to maximise the benefit of their unique buff in the right party.
Dualing a character at level two isn't effective power gaming as the missing half APR will often lead to a 10 or 20% damage output deficit which simply isn't optimal.
Most of the other effects that you mention are very short in duration and hardly qualify as power gaming in a HoF party.
What in "even more so with ... a higher Berserker level" did you not understand?
I did not claim that dualing at Berserker level 2 would be "optimal". It is powergaming already by definition ... just that one would rather dual at levels 3, 7 or 9 ... with 13 becoming a late show. Most of? You must be kidding.
Interesting to note that a Mage can gain access to Cloudkill before a sorcerer using this approach.
Leaving HoW to return to the main quest is a little tricky but only requires one fight to be completed with Mebdinga and her wailing virgins. It is actually possible to avoid it all together via invisibility and haste but for my part I found it simple enough to kite them while invisible to the choke point outside of the tower and then wear them down with spike growth, web and fireballs with skeletons to tie them up. Don't forget Deathward!
Spending under an hour exploring Lonelywood and surrounds netted a few million xp for the party so all duals are complete and the party comes back to complete Dragon Eye with 5 casts of cloudkill per day and 5 strong warriors along with the entire party sitting at -10 or better AC.
I'm enjoying the half xp challenge but I think it's going to get easy from here.
Half XP mode also could be the reason why to start HoW early. Is Burial Isle so much easier than Dragon's Eye? When I read "to kite them while invisible" ... aarrrgh, that doesn't sound like fun.
At full XP mode, Dragon's Eye is low-hanging fruit for an average party. Even for the six dual/multi warriors I give a try. All classes have been reactivated already. Strategy so far is very basic and mostly involves buffing allies and debuffing enemies. For the fun a bit of spike growth, skull trap and ice storm. The lack of mage scrolls isn't bad so far. AC is -13 for the Swashbuckler 5->Fighter (back at Kuldahar) and -9 for the stronger one of the two Berserker->Clerics. AC -9 alone is not on the safe side deep in Dragon's Eye.
Still, the final fight had an even easier feeling than with two sorcerers.
Certainly Dragons Eye is easier overall but completing this one fight netted over 2 million xp, level 5 spell scrolls and some important items. I can also return whenever necessary to pick up new spell scrolls as the mages level up (there are choice picks all the way to level 9).
My parties AC currently:
Berserker7/Cleric10: -12 (17% of kills)
Kensei9/Mage10: -15 (24% of kills)
Kensei9/Druid12: -11 (29% of kills)
F8M9T10: -13 (22% of kills)
Ill9/Cler10: -13 (-18 in sword spider form)(5% of kills)
This is not including Defensive Harmony, Rage, Entropy Shield, Recitation, Prayer or Chant (which I load in a Minor Sequencer).
Well, what to say? I don't have any notes about Burial Isle. It took some time to explore the Barrows and notice that that those Barrow Wights and Wailing Virgins respawn after resting on the isle or at Lonelywood. At level 11 HoF one doesn't have the power to clear the entire Barrows map before confronting Mebdinga. Making the party invisible is important. Or else can one spend a lot of time on always the same encounters.
Mebdinga isn't much of a problem. I didn't flee but approached her from the left side. No fireballs memorized. So Skull Trap, Spike Growth, Spike Stones, hasted summons did a lot of the work. The party helped with ranged attacks.
Afterwards I asked Hjollder to return me to Kuldahar. 700,000 XP in total per character for this bit of HoW. A couple of scrolls, a very few items only. Nothing spectacular.
Percentage of kills so far:
Sw5->F 21%
B9->Cl 15%
B7->Cl 14%
F/M 19%
F9->M 14%
F/D 15%
Pretty even except for the Swashy ... wielding my favorite returning throwing axe when doing ranged combat. The F/M is second because of longbow++ skill and usage. Everything's fine so far. That's exactly the plan with this party.
Now I know the name of the special club I've mentioned: Svian's Club +5, speed 1
Perhaps even a 100% find within the Barrows.
Svian's club is 100% yes.
How many APR does your party have? What's the average damage do you think?
Sw5->F : axe+++++ / dual+++
B9->Cl : flail+++++ / dual++
B7->Cl : warhammer+++++ / dual++
F/M : ++ in longsword, longbow, two-handed / two-handed sword+
F9->M : bastard sword+++++ / longbow++ / dual+
F/D : club++ / s&s++ / sling++
Not all skills included in that list.
I've found the Bastard Sword of Action +1 as the first extra APR weapon.
Going two-handed with the F/M is not by accident.
What two handed weapons are good?
Why vanilla fighter?
Why club and s&s?
If anything Haste, Invisibility 10' Radius, are better uses of a Level 3 slot.
Two Sorcerers is less efficient powergaming because that other Sorcerer could easily be a Skald to buff the Fighters damage. Adding a Skald to a Two Sorcerer party means only 3 Fighters.
On the other hand a full spellcaster party won't need a Skald since all it'll be buffing is summons.
I'm not underestimating the Dwarven Defender. I know what they're capable of. Which is being resistant to damage. And what they're capable of is replicated by Fighter/Spellcasters. Mirror Image, Stone Skin, Iron Skin, that spell which regens a ton of HP per round, Armor of Faith, etc. At some point in practically every HoF game I've played, I simply stop using summons and disabling spells because of how unkillable a Fighter/Spellcaster is. So as far as what a Dwarven Defender brings to a powergaming party, the Fighter/Spellcasters already reach that point.
Early game a Dwarven Defender's effect is duplicated by summons. They're not affected by the double damage rule and have way more HP than a Dwarven Defender. And if they die it's no big loss as another set can be summoned anyway.
Fighter/Spellcastrs have the extra advantage of GM (at least the duals) and other spell buffs which improve damage (Tensers, Draw Upon Holy Might, Righetous Magic)