Any chance Half Orcs will finally be done justice?

DetroitRedWings25

I know its unlikely but Its always bugged me greatly over the years that the half orcs in game model is just a copy paste of the human model, especially because when you go to your inventory you see a very cool half orc model. Ever sense Baldurs gate II Introduced my favorite D&D race I always hoped we would be able to see a worthy half orc model in game, any chance of my dream becoming a reality with this new expansion?

Fardragon

According to 1st and 2nd edition lore, half orcs are almost indistinguishable from ugly humans, and many can pass for human.

The whole concept of half orc in 1st edition was based on Saurman's spies in LotR.

cmk24

As mentioned in the latest post here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/40963/baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear-previously-known-as-the-adventure-y-project#latest

bengoshi said:

6. The sprite outline smoothing is new to Siege of Dragonspear and affects all sprites in the game if it's turned on. That feature wasn't present in the previous EE games.

I don't think there were any changes to the player character sprites. However, a few individual monster sprites may have been adjusted.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/beamdogs-baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear-interquel.96369/page-20#post-4020465

The devs have said the player character sprites have not been adjusted.

DetroitRedWings25

That is disappointing news every other playable race has a unique sprite except for half orcs as is, even half elves.

DetroitRedWings25

Fardragon said:

According to 1st and 2nd edition lore, half orcs are almost indistinguishable from ugly humans, and many can pass for human.

The whole concept of half orc in 1st edition was based on Saurman's spies in LotR.

The half orcs in Baldurs Gate were based on D&D 3.0 as they were added along with other 3.0 features such as the Monk, Sorcerer and Barbarian classes.

elminster

@DetroitRedWings25 Half-Orcs in the BG series are more likely based off of the playable race found (starting on page 49) in The Complete Book of Humanoids.

Kamigoroshi

elminster said:

@DetroitRedWings25 Half-Orcs in the BG/IWD series are more likely based off of the playable race found (starting on page 49) in The Complete Book of Humanoids.

Agreed. With the difference being that BGII and the EE's for some strange reason decided to give them a -2 penalty to Intelligence instead of the official -2 penalty to Charisma. Personally I feel this one bit was indeed influenced by D&D 3rd edition. Well,either that or LOTR.

While I would love to have the old Half-Orc paperdolls back and new sprites to match. I'd be more than glad if Half-Orcs would only be able to become Shamans. *crosses tentacles*

Arcanis

Kamigoroshi said:

elminster said:

@DetroitRedWings25 Half-Orcs in the BG/IWD series are more likely based off of the playable race found (starting on page 49) in The Complete Book of Humanoids.

Agreed. With the difference being that BGII and the EE's for some strange reason decided to give them a -2 penalty to Intelligence instead of the official -2 penalty to Charisma. Personally I feel this one bit was indeed influenced by D&D 3rd edition. Well,either that or LOTR.

While I would love to have the old Half-Orc paperdolls back and new sprites to match. I'd be more than glad if Half-Orcs would only be able to become Shamans. *crosses tentacles*

I *think* that was a good decision, because penalities to charisma don't really mean much in BG2..
Half-orcs are great for the frontline and a lack of intelligence hurts you versus Illithids..
Lack of charisma? Who cares ^^

Kamigoroshi

Not neccessary. Lower Charisma means higher shop prices, as well as more grumpy NPC's in the party and quests.

Well, my main dissatisfaction about this is that Orcs in AD&D are skilled and intelligent tacticians of mainly Lawful Evil alignment. Not unlike Hobgoblins. However newer editions reduced them to undisciplined and dumb cannon fodder quite similar to Black Uruks from the Lord of the Ring.

deltago

Kamigoroshi said:

Not neccessary. Lower Charisma means higher shop prices, as well as more grumpy NPC's in the party and quests.

Until you do the first quest after chateaux Irenicus and get a ring that turns your 3 CHR into an 18.

Kamigoroshi

deltago said:

Kamigoroshi said:

Not neccessary. Lower Charisma means higher shop prices, as well as more grumpy NPC's in the party and quests.

Until you do the first quest after chateaux Irenicus and get a ring that turns your 3 CHR into an 18.

Or until one just uses EEKeeper and boosts Charisma manually to infinity. Which is pretty much the same thing.

Even this infamous cheat item doesn't change my point of view on this roleplaying matter. Which is why I modified the Half-Orc's ability scores, thieving points and racial description as a whole for my games in order to experience the real deal.

AstroBryGuy

DetroitRedWings25 said:

That is disappointing news every other playable race has a unique sprite except for half orcs as is, even half elves.

That's not true. Half-elves use the elf sprites and gnomes use the dwarf sprites.

Arcanis

Kamigoroshi said:

Not neccessary. Lower Charisma means higher shop prices, as well as more grumpy NPC's in the party and quests.

Well, my main dissatisfaction about this is that Orcs in AD&D are skilled and intelligent tacticians of mainly Lawful Evil alignment. Not unlike Hobgoblins. However newer editions reduced them to undisciplined and dumb cannon fodder quite similar to Black Uruks from the Lord of the Ring.

Well, I have to say the changes do make sense for me.
Orcs are a unruly, chaotic evil force of destruction afaik. So why woul half-orcs be smart and lawful?

There a two possibilities:
a) A Half-Orc raised by Orcs. Sure s/he may be more cunning and smart then a run-of-the-mill-orc, but
s/he should still share their value system (aka CE) because s/he was *raised* in this system
Also, intelligence is often shown as book knowledge (thus mage are very intelligent) and to acheive
that you need some sort of formal education, nothing an orc tribe would provide.

b) A Half-Orc raised by Humans. Full diversity moral wise but you can still make the argument that a bit
of orcish stupidity has been passed down -depending on your view of genetics here-, but s/he should
have access to formal education.

Also:
What is actually more important for a tactican (and a strategist)? Intelligence or wisdom?
Studying battles, war palns and tactical positioning are not everything.. or a historian would also
be a pretty decent tactician and/or strategist.

Kamigoroshi

@Arcanis You do realize that I specificly spoke of full-blooded Orcs in AD&D in that post and not Half-Orcs right? The unruly, chaotic image of drooling orc hordes only came after the 3rd edition hit the shelves afaik. Prior to that they enjoyed more complex, militaristic communities. As well as possessing talented miners and blacksmiths in their ranks who supplied them with equipment. Needless to say even their chief god Gruumsh was Lawful Evil back then. But this too was changed into Chaotic Evil at some point for apparently no reason.

Again, neither Orcs nor Half-Orcs had any Intelligence penalities in their racial ability adjustments of AD&D.
Orcs: +1 Strength, -2 Charisma
Half-Orcs: +1 Strength, +1 Constitution, -2 Charisma

And we shouldn't forget about their Ability Score Range and class level restrictions in PnP, neither of which were implemented in BGII.

Ironically, Orcs could become much wiser than Half-Orcs.

For the record, *this* is what the 3rd/3.5 edition tormented them with.
Orcs: +4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma.
Half-Orcs: +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.

There's just no fairness for green folks.

Alexisisinneed

Excuses me, but the only good Orc is a dead Orc.

I kid. But I have a question. Was Orc a playable race?

But there has been a few examples of smart Orcs like Obloud Many-Arrows the antagonist of the Hunters blade trilogy. He builds a huge empire for the orcs. It establishes trade and everything.

DetroitRedWings25

Alexisisinneed said:

Excuses me, but the only good Orc is a dead Orc.

I kid. But I have a question. Was Orc a playable race?

But there has been a few examples of smart Orcs like Obloud Many-Arrows the antagonist of the Hunters blade trilogy. He builds a huge empire for the orcs. It establishes trade and everything.

Orc was playable in 3.0 and 3.5 I know because I frequently made a full Orc barbarian named Tazok in my D&D sessions he was dumb as a brick but had an insane Strength and con score... was so much fun to role-play They weren't one of the base 7 races but they were playable. They had a +4 Strength and -2 all Mental attributes. They also had Light sensitivity and dark vision 60 feet.

scriver

They weren't among the default player races, but 3.5 was designed to allow a lot of races to easily be made playable. Iirc Orcs eventually got included in at least one official splatbook as well.

Arcanis

@Kamigoroshi
Ah, sorry, my mistake.. I blame it on the late hour =P
But seriously, thanks I learned something new.. It never occured to me to think of the Orcs as oderly,
so I think my prejudice clouded my judgement. ^^

Mhm.. makes me wonder.. Could a Lawful Neutral ruler employ LE Orcs (or Hobgoblins for that matter)
in his army? If they are lawful, then they follow order once submitted to the authority and such troops
would have the potential to greatly increase the power of the ruler.. Well, time to rethink my idea about
a lawful country with a racial diverse population, thanks for the insight!

Kamigoroshi

@Arcanis
According to Eric L. Boyd, the Thayans did just that and breeded two brand new lawful subraces of orcs. You can read the Thayan Orcs up in his semi-official Realms Bestiary, Volume 1 e-book. Both of his bestiaries are written for 3.0/3.5th edition though. Still makes for an interesting read.

Arcanis

Kamigoroshi said:

@Arcanis
According to Eric L. Boyd, the Thayans did just that and breeded two brand new lawful subraces of orcs. You can read the Thayan Orcs up in his semi-official Realms Bestiary, Volume 1 e-book. Both of his bestiaries are written for 3.0/3.5th edition though. Still makes for an interesting read.

I will read into it once I gotten some time, thanks

Sixheadeddog

Kamigoroshi said:

@Arcanis You do realize that I specificly spoke of full-blooded Orcs in AD&D in that post and not Half-Orcs right? The unruly, chaotic image of drooling orc hordes only came after the 3rd edition hit the shelves afaik. Prior to that they enjoyed more complex, militaristic communities. As well as possessing talented miners and blacksmiths in their ranks who supplied them with equipment. Needless to say even their chief god Gruumsh was Lawful Evil back then. But this too was changed into Chaotic Evil at some point for apparently no reason.

Again, neither Orcs nor Half-Orcs had any Intelligence penalities in their racial ability adjustments of AD&D.
Orcs: +1 Strength, -2 Charisma
Half-Orcs: +1 Strength, +1 Constitution, -2 Charisma

And we shouldn't forget about their Ability Score Range and class level restrictions in PnP, neither of which were implemented in BGII.

Ironically, Orcs could become much wiser than Half-Orcs.

For the record, *this* is what the 3rd/3.5 edition tormented them with.
Orcs: +4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma.
Half-Orcs: +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.

There's just no fairness for green folks.

There were many, ridiculous and stupid changes that came to D&D after the year 2000. Orcs changed to Chaotic Evil, after 25 years' worth of lore that had them as Lawful Evil. In the Planescape mythos, we saw that their pantheon of deities dwelled on Acheron, where they war constantly with the Goblin deities for control over the finite number of souls that can exist on that plane at once. Of course, this makes absolutely no sense in 3rd (and later) editions where the Orcs and their gods are now Chaotic Evil, but IIRC the Orcish gods still live on Acheron. Because reasons.

Also no accounting for the fact that kobolds suddenly became related to dragons. You'll note that NOWHERE in Baldur's Gate is this link referenced, and in fact in the last revision of the FR campaign setting for 2nd edition Kobolds are specifically referenced as being goblinoids.

Things were much less dumb back in the day. Now if only those teenagers would get offa my lawn.

Blades

Every campaign like FR, Dragonlance, etc.. has their race variants. Core books are for homemade campaigns when it comes to Races. 3rd edition FR added Multiple Orcs types in the Races of Faerun supplement. There was a race of Orcs native to Faerun and a race brought to Faerun by Thay via a gate to fight Mulhorand and its living gods in an earlier age.

CRPG Devs have rarely been consistent with PnP rules of almost any game system, so none of this is surprising.

Quartz

DetroitRedWings25 said:

That is disappointing news every other playable race has a unique sprite except for half orcs as is, even half elves.

Well, Gnomes and Dwarves get lumped together, so that's a little underwhelming too. Only different gnome is the mage sprite.

Oudyn

Quartz said:

DetroitRedWings25 said:

That is disappointing news every other playable race has a unique sprite except for half orcs as is, even half elves.

Well, Gnomes and Dwarves get lumped together, so that's a little underwhelming too. Only different gnome is the mage sprite.

And the only reason for that is that there are no Dwarf mages. (Though, I've always been upset that gnomes cannot be Sorcerers). That just seems so obvious, but noooo, the race with inborn magical talent cannot possibly be the class with inborn magical talent! That would be dumb.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Schneidend

Kamigoroshi said:

@Arcanis You do realize that I specificly spoke of full-blooded Orcs in AD&D in that post and not Half-Orcs right? The unruly, chaotic image of drooling orc hordes only came after the 3rd edition hit the shelves afaik. Prior to that they enjoyed more complex, militaristic communities. As well as possessing talented miners and blacksmiths in their ranks who supplied them with equipment. Needless to say even their chief god Gruumsh was Lawful Evil back then. But this too was changed into Chaotic Evil at some point for apparently no reason.

Again, neither Orcs nor Half-Orcs had any Intelligence penalities in their racial ability adjustments of AD&D.
Orcs: +1 Strength, -2 Charisma
Half-Orcs: +1 Strength, +1 Constitution, -2 Charisma

And we shouldn't forget about their Ability Score Range and class level restrictions in PnP, neither of which were implemented in BGII.

Ironically, Orcs could become much wiser than Half-Orcs.

For the record, *this* is what the 3rd/3.5 edition tormented them with.
Orcs: +4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma.
Half-Orcs: +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.

There's just no fairness for green folks.

Hobgoblins took the highly disciplined militaristic demihumans role, so somebody had to be the savage super-brutes. I think it's a good thing, to help differentiate D&D as a property from LotR and even Warhammer or Warcraft.

FinneousPJ

"Any chance Half Orcs will finally be done justice?"

You mean rounded up and killed?

DetroitRedWings25

FinneousPJ said:

"Any chance Half Orcs will finally be done justice?"

You mean rounded up and killed?

Racist!

JuliusBorisov

Sorry, had to...

Roller12

getting an orc sprite like in the LotR movies would be quite awesome.

kcwise

bengoshi said:

Sorry, had to...

Keldorn in earlier years as the Order's champion boxer?