After all these posts nobody thinks of the real disenfranchised group? Males have options, females have options, but unless they have changed things since I've played last dwarves gnomes and halflings get nothing! Where's the love for the vertically challenged? Don't get me started on the total lack of female dwarves! (Do they still have beards in this edition...? Can't remember)
More on topic: I don't mind how they set up the romance restrictions as long as it remains possible to get around them. There was an option in one of the tweak packs to remove gender/race requirement for romances, as well as one that allowed for multiple simultaneous romances. Sure, you might get referred to as the wrong pronoun sometimes, and sure it might be a little confusing where Aerie's baby came from, but those things are minor in the grand scheme of things. If I want my game to play that way then I accept that those things will come up and will have to be headcanoned around.
Isn't that what made BG so long lasting? What RPGs have been missing in recent years? Choice. More options are always a good thing, even if we have to add them ourselves.
@Ward, with all due respect, I didn't post my comment in order to hurt your feelings or make you feel underappreciated, I stated it because you claimed @NancyButtpeach had a valid statement to make, society doesn't have to embrace homosexuality (therefore, by extension, anything beyond the conventional).
Don't get me wrong, I can understand part of what you're saying. Some homosexuals are far too cavalier about forcing people to accept their sexuality. I understand pockets of society do have obstacles to overcome regarding the issue, and self-righteous gay people trying to force it down everybody's throat isn't the right way to deal with that.
I just don't see how any of that should make the game designers including a gay romance - one that may involve a half-orc (obviously the worst kind of gay) - an abhorrent or objectionable thing. It's not like a group of gay rights activists held Overhaul developers at gunpoint and forced them to write a man who was interested in a same-sex relationship.
I don't care if they put a gay romance in it, I just don't want Dorn hitting on me. Wouldn't ever use Rasaard or Neera.
Why do you keep saying that these characters will "hit on you"? Have you actually PLAYED the game and know for a fact they will? That's a pretty negative assumption on your part.
@Ward is probably saying that because most available romance options will start a romance conversation with you based on how you treat them and how long you have them in the party. He doesn't want to have to deny Dorn's first advancing dialogue option (If Dorn instead of Rasaad has been confirmed as the possible Gay romance, I don't know) every time he plays through with Dorn in the party.
He's stated a workable solution, though I don't know if it can/will be implemented with the devs stated limitations.
It would be nice if no one was hit on that didn't want it, but in my opinion that's why we have the "BigNo" option whenever a romance tries to start. (Reference: http://nooooooooooooooo.com/ )
He's only stating what he wants and doesn't want, not trying to impinge on your rights or deny other people content.
I understand where Ward's fear is coming from. If you look at the likes of DA:O's bisexual romances, or DA2, the assumption is that your party members WILL hit on you (because if you can be sexually attracted to most genders, apparently you're attractived to EVERYONE of that gender and just can't control yourself), without fail.
BG romances are the most intelligent RPG romances I've ever encountered. I hope the developers base their romances off the originals, in which it is possible to be friendly (most of the time) and still disengage the romance.
Do the vanilla romances in BG2 include shut down options? I haven't played a vanilla game in so long....and mod NPCs almost always have a switch.
If not...I would like an off switch if for no other reason than to tell Anomen to stuff it. I don't know about the ladies, but he's very...persistent.
I've read through a lot of dialogue files, vanilla and modded. Romance paths are usually coded differently from the regular interactions. So even if you shut down the romance, you should still get the regular dialogue options. Since romance paths start off "friendly," it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference.
If nothing else, you can use CLUAConsole and set respective variable to "3" which will kill the romance.
Personally, I'm going to play a male character for my first playthrough, because I'm curious as to how well written the gay "starter" romance is. Never played a male character in BG, amazingly enough. But since female characters aren't treated much differently (looking at YOU, DAO), I've never needed to.
They include shut downs @zarffyn, some of them can be really harsh. Telling Anomen that he's a ponce (as he was designed to be and does incredibly well) is not only available to you but offered in various levels of harshness. Romances usually, in my experience, morph out of the friendship dialogues, meaning if you're playing a nice CHARNAME you'll be hit on more than a jerk CHARNAME, but then again I've mostly played good characters.
@recklessheart exactly why we're pettioning for a quality standard on not just any new homosexual or bisexual romances, but ANY new romances for anyone in my mind. giving someone nice for the straight girls would be a high priority in my mind as well.
@TenYaiba What I've largely seen in romance paths is that they are fairly linear. One conversation leads to another conversation. The romance path begins at "0" and at a certain point, when the PC has expressed reciprocating affection/interest, the variable becomes "1." At this stage, the flirting is more out in the open. The romance path continues to develop until it reaches a point where the PC can enter a committed relationship (variable "2"). At this stage, other romances are (usually, if not using a cheat) auto-killed, or set at "3."
Good mod authors create a variety of responses to the conversation (nice, jerk, inbetween), but they usually loop to the same outcome, unless you're a real ass to the NPC, or shut them down. (At which point, the variable becomes "3.")
This isn't a bad thing. I think it was Compton who wrote about creating looping dialogues, to create the illusion of player choice, without having to write more than is really necessary.
No, I haven't been tearing apart mods in other to see how they work. No idea what you're talking about.
I do poke at Anomen a lot. He's not all bad. Once you get over the really rough beginning, he can be very sweet. I will say that using the NPC Flirt Pack definitely improves Anomen, to a certain extent. Of course, last time I had him in my party just to see how he and Kelsey faced off.
I mostly rage at Anomen for encroaching on my "territory" rather than having a personal greif against him, in the same way I dislike Hear-Dalis. Not because they're bad characters, or because they fail to portray themselves as well developed characters. Though Anomen rubs me the wrong way rather severely in those early times that it took me many playthroughs before I even bothered with his quest and saw his character growth.
I just wish you could shut down NPC-NPC flirting like you can NPC-PC flirting. but that's probably just me being greedy.
For some strange reason it looks like the board glitched and ate up a couple of posts in this topic between page 3 and 4. I think they've been lost forever.
On topic, @TenYaiba has said almost everything I wanted to on appealing to lesbians as opposed to straight men. The point isn't to keep straight men from enjoying it - they aren't even the only ones guilty of playing a different demographic because it turns them on* - but to avoid putting off the players you're making the romance for. Things like rampant oversexualization, creepy voyeuristic NPCs, and stereotypical characterizations that play to male insecurities all send the message that a lesbian romance was made for men. Put as much thought into good writing as you do for your other romances, and you should be fine.
Think of it like designing a female PC for women: she'll still be reasonably attractive most of the time, tough or graceful, realistically dressed for her environment, etc. Many guys like this type of character, find her sexy, and would play as her, but who cares if they do? Both women and the men who choose this are happy with the result, as opposed to only men. Now take that attitude and apply it to female-female romances.
* There are many straight women who feel the same way about gay men.
@Razor No no, I deleted my post myself. A mod-deleted post wouldn't show up at all.
Yeah. I was just pointing out that Prejudice still exists for women and non-white people in American society, and shared an anecdote about a friend and his roommate.
I'm sure we could all rifle through the BoEF and similar material and say "Oh please no X!" to ideas that none of us want to see, but lets try to get word to the developers about what we DO want to see
Let's get the word out to try and get something accomplished!
What I said was about the interesting and deep choice of making the monk bisexual. Because in Faerun, most monastic traditions are tied to single deities, such as Ilmater (which by the way is the closest thing to the Christian god that Faerun has), and in those traditions they try to embody the principles of their deities. Now, I read that the monastic tradition of Rasaad is instead tied to the goddess of the moon Selune. I hadn't read this the first time I posted. This makes it actually all very clear, since Selune is also tied to romance itself, so if he wants to embody the principles of the deity, it makes a lot of sense for him to be bisexual. But my comment doesn't change: I like very much the fact that this association recalls ancient religious traditions of history (such as some priestess in Greece), I like that it adds depth to the setting, and I like that in some way, it is a small slap in the face of those who associate religion and spirituality with heterosexuality, or abstinence (without thinking that contexts and the very nature of that religion and spirituality could actually invert things completely). Kudos to the developers, this could even make it in the big news, I just hope that if it will, facts won't be altered badly.
This makes it actually all very clear, since Selune is also tied to romance itself, so if he wants to embody the principles of the deity, it makes a lot of sense for him to be bisexual.
@Archaeon I think you are mistaking Selune with Sune. Sune is the Goddess of Love and Beauty and bathes in the fountain Evergold with Hanali Celanil, the Elven Goddess of Beauty. Selune is the Goddess of the Moon, Sailors and Navigators, and good and neutral-aligned lycanthropes. Given that she is also in conflict with Shar, Goddess of the Night and Darkness, I doubt Rasad and Viconia are going to get along.
No, I know about Sune, the fact is that in 4th Edition Selune became also a core game deity (apart from a Faerun deity) with Love in her protfolio. Now, in faerun maybe it's not like that, but I'm quite positive that at least a sympathy towards romance is present. It's a "romantic" deity, let's say...
I actually checked out, and yeah, no romance or love is listed in her domains, but look what I've found about the Order of the Sun Soul: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Soul "Most took the logical choice to begin worship of Lathander, others Selûne and a minority also began worship of Sune."...
Also, about Sune: "She is also allied to Selûne, who once served her much as Sharess does now, but has since gone her own way" http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sune
This makes it actually all very clear, since Selune is also tied to romance itself, so if he wants to embody the principles of the deity, it makes a lot of sense for him to be bisexual.
People don't choose like that...just sayin'...
Hahha sorry, I didn't use the right words: it makes a lot of sense for the developers to make him bisexual! Then again of course, from the character's point of view, he might have chosen that monastic tradition and not another one for some reason...
Perhaps he takes the perceived capricious nature of the moon to heart in that regard? being ever-mercurial in that aspect of his life. It's hard to make a character judgement on someone we haven't seen in action yet though.
I really hope this is up to standard BG romance material, or better where possible.
Comments
More on topic: I don't mind how they set up the romance restrictions as long as it remains possible to get around them. There was an option in one of the tweak packs to remove gender/race requirement for romances, as well as one that allowed for multiple simultaneous romances. Sure, you might get referred to as the wrong pronoun sometimes, and sure it might be a little confusing where Aerie's baby came from, but those things are minor in the grand scheme of things. If I want my game to play that way then I accept that those things will come up and will have to be headcanoned around.
Isn't that what made BG so long lasting? What RPGs have been missing in recent years? Choice. More options are always a good thing, even if we have to add them ourselves.
Don't get me wrong, I can understand part of what you're saying. Some homosexuals are far too cavalier about forcing people to accept their sexuality. I understand pockets of society do have obstacles to overcome regarding the issue, and self-righteous gay people trying to force it down everybody's throat isn't the right way to deal with that.
I just don't see how any of that should make the game designers including a gay romance - one that may involve a half-orc (obviously the worst kind of gay) - an abhorrent or objectionable thing. It's not like a group of gay rights activists held Overhaul developers at gunpoint and forced them to write a man who was interested in a same-sex relationship.
I don't care if they put a gay romance in it, I just don't want Dorn hitting on me. Wouldn't ever use Rasaard or Neera.
He's stated a workable solution, though I don't know if it can/will be implemented with the devs stated limitations.
It would be nice if no one was hit on that didn't want it, but in my opinion that's why we have the "BigNo" option whenever a romance tries to start. (Reference: http://nooooooooooooooo.com/ )
He's only stating what he wants and doesn't want, not trying to impinge on your rights or deny other people content.
BG romances are the most intelligent RPG romances I've ever encountered. I hope the developers base their romances off the originals, in which it is possible to be friendly (most of the time) and still disengage the romance.
If not...I would like an off switch if for no other reason than to tell Anomen to stuff it. I don't know about the ladies, but he's very...persistent.
I've read through a lot of dialogue files, vanilla and modded. Romance paths are usually coded differently from the regular interactions. So even if you shut down the romance, you should still get the regular dialogue options. Since romance paths start off "friendly," it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference.
If nothing else, you can use CLUAConsole and set respective variable to "3" which will kill the romance.
Personally, I'm going to play a male character for my first playthrough, because I'm curious as to how well written the gay "starter" romance is. Never played a male character in BG, amazingly enough. But since female characters aren't treated much differently (looking at YOU, DAO), I've never needed to.
@recklessheart exactly why we're pettioning for a quality standard on not just any new homosexual or bisexual romances, but ANY new romances for anyone in my mind. giving someone nice for the straight girls would be a high priority in my mind as well.
Good mod authors create a variety of responses to the conversation (nice, jerk, inbetween), but they usually loop to the same outcome, unless you're a real ass to the NPC, or shut them down. (At which point, the variable becomes "3.")
This isn't a bad thing. I think it was Compton who wrote about creating looping dialogues, to create the illusion of player choice, without having to write more than is really necessary.
No, I haven't been tearing apart mods in other to see how they work. No idea what you're talking about.
I do poke at Anomen a lot. He's not all bad. Once you get over the really rough beginning, he can be very sweet. I will say that using the NPC Flirt Pack definitely improves Anomen, to a certain extent. Of course, last time I had him in my party just to see how he and Kelsey faced off.
I just wish you could shut down NPC-NPC flirting like you can NPC-PC flirting.
Yeah, but they otherwise disappeared.
I know that I actually read them.
I beleive @LadyRhian @WonKo and @Archaon had comments disappear if they would like to repost them i, for one, would welcome them.
Think of it like designing a female PC for women: she'll still be reasonably attractive most of the time, tough or graceful, realistically dressed for her environment, etc. Many guys like this type of character, find her sexy, and would play as her, but who cares if they do? Both women and the men who choose this are happy with the result, as opposed to only men. Now take that attitude and apply it to female-female romances.
* There are many straight women who feel the same way about gay men.
@Razor No no, I deleted my post myself. A mod-deleted post wouldn't show up at all.
A majority of the romance are Boy->Girl Friendly, more here would be nice but it shouldn't be a priority.
We hope that this new Boy->Boy Romance is quality.
We want a quality Girl->Boy romance since the current option is not very appealing.
We want a quality Girl->Girl romance that is tailored with women being the primary target audience.
Polyamourism was brought up, do we want to tackle that issue? or any romance options that you can think of that we should bring to the light?
I'm sure we could all rifle through the BoEF and similar material and say "Oh please no X!" to ideas that none of us want to see, but lets try to get word to the developers about what we DO want to see
Let's get the word out to try and get something accomplished!
What I said was about the interesting and deep choice of making the monk bisexual. Because in Faerun, most monastic traditions are tied to single deities, such as Ilmater (which by the way is the closest thing to the Christian god that Faerun has), and in those traditions they try to embody the principles of their deities. Now, I read that the monastic tradition of Rasaad is instead tied to the goddess of the moon Selune. I hadn't read this the first time I posted. This makes it actually all very clear, since Selune is also tied to romance itself, so if he wants to embody the principles of the deity, it makes a lot of sense for him to be bisexual. But my comment doesn't change: I like very much the fact that this association recalls ancient religious traditions of history (such as some priestess in Greece), I like that it adds depth to the setting, and I like that in some way, it is a small slap in the face of those who associate religion and spirituality with heterosexuality, or abstinence (without thinking that contexts and the very nature of that religion and spirituality could actually invert things completely).
Kudos to the developers, this could even make it in the big news, I just hope that if it will, facts won't be altered badly.
"Most took the logical choice to begin worship of Lathander, others Selûne and a minority also began worship of Sune."...
Also, about Sune: "She is also allied to Selûne, who once served her much as Sharess does now, but has since gone her own way" http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sune
I really hope this is up to standard BG romance material, or better where possible.