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[MOD] -Might and Guile- a tweak mod and kit pack for warriors and rogues.

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Comments

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Pantalion said:

    How about "artificial" bonuses? ... 1/2 an attack and +X to hit/damage while wielding Scimitar/Long Sword/Short Sword weapons,

    Not possible, as far as I know. And the stupid engine doesn't allow you to increment proficiency level with opcode 233. :(

    I'll take a look at multiclasses. I feel like F/Ms should be able to reach 4 pips.

    I'll also take a look at the tables. I think 7th level is a bit of a specialized case. If you look at 4th or 9th or 15th level the results will be different. (And I don't know anyone who goes 2/2/2 in sword/mace/DW in vanilla - I feel like they will race to GM, either doing 3 sword/3 DW, or 4 sword/2 DW.)

    But maybe I should rebalance a bit. Maybe make the extra APR from +++ kick in at 7th level, and ++++ at 11th, instead of vice versa. I have to look and remember why I rejected that in the 1st place...

    Pantalion
  • GawainBSGawainBS Member Posts: 501
    I might have overlooked an earlier discussion about this, but I feel that the weapon styles aren't balanced. Finesse gets slightly better bonuses (+5% crit chance) at full proficiency compared to Shield-Fighting, while Shield-Fighting doesn't require an empty equipment slot. Shields are powerful items in the BG games and far outstrip that extra crit chance. Perhaps a major defensive buff, or an extra 1/2 APR might be more appropriate?
    Also, I feel that for Dual-Wielding, it makes less sense to penalize the main hand in stead of the off-hand.

    Keep up the great work!

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    The rationale is, when dual-wielding doesn't affect your main-hand, it's just a freebie. And the ultra cheap thing to do is put some weapon that has passive benefits into your off-hand, and who cares about how good it is at actually, y'know, dual-wielding, because your main weapon is working perfectly and you're getting a free benefit that has nothing to do with the weapon style you've trained in.

    Therefore, vanilla DW is a bad implementation. With my system, wielding two weapons at once changes the balance and movements you naturally use to strike, so there are to-hit penalties (but smaller penalties than in vanilla). But the extra weapon in your off-hand is not something your adversaries often or easily deal with, so it's kind of an attack of opportunity - with a bonus to hit relative to your main-hand. This all means that to get those passive benefits of an off-hand weapon, you actually have to trade something (a couple points of main-hand thac0) and judge whether it's worth it.

    At high levels your thac0 will probably be fine regardless, so the penalty isn't too severe. And if you play with the IWO component which gives bonuses for light weapons, you can even make a decent DW build at low levels... but with daggers, not with bastard swords.

    I feel like the game should strive to present that situation - ask you to judge whether it's worth it to do something, and the answer may be different in different circumstances. In the vanilla game, DW is always worth it, it's not even a question, so the game misses a chance to present you with an interesting and meaningful choice.

    Finally, note that fighters get profs every other level with this component. So they have the unique freedom to use a style like SWS or S&S at low levels when you need the thac0 boost, and build up to dual-wielding at higher levels when your thac0 is really good.

    As for S&S vs. SWS: 2 pips in SWS should be giving a +10% crit chance, I think. Does the 2nd pip in S&S give +5% crit chance? Maybe it shouldn't. I'll take a look and try to balance it.

  • KrotosKrotos Member Posts: 156
    Is it intended that you can take a 3rd point in Sword & Shield style in IWD:EE? Doing that removes all the bonuses btw.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    @Krotos no, the limit should be 2 pips. Sounds like a typo in weapprof.2da. What kit are you using that is allowed to do that?

  • KrotosKrotos Member Posts: 156

    @Krotos no, the limit should be 2 pips. Sounds like a typo in weapprof.2da. What kit are you using that is allowed to do that?

    Myrmidon and Mystic Fire Knights from TFJ are both able to do that. Other fighter and paladin kits within that kit pack can do it as well, I suspect.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Whaaat? Man, elminster is going a bit too far in his mod there... but, since M&G is meant to be installed after FJ, I should be able to override his changes and bring it in line with the M&G system. I'll look into it.

  • GawainBSGawainBS Member Posts: 501
    Alright, your rationale behind DW is sound. Good point.

    I do think that SWS is too underpowered in comparion with S&S, though. Everything with a helmet and lots of creature types are immune to extra damage from crit, right? Not being able to use a shield is a major thing in the IE games, so SWS should provide meaningful benefits. It should not be an automatic choice, but it should force some thought, no?
    Especially in the case of Fighter/Mages, for example. Sure, it's the only one they can use, but a shield is a huge increase in AC, especially in higher levels, which compensates their lack of armour. (Granted, there's plenty of options to have them wear armour and not suffer ASF, but still...)

  • GawainBSGawainBS Member Posts: 501
    Also, I still have SoB installed. If I want Might & Guile, should I just go for a fresh game-install? Would it mess with savegames?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    GawainBS said:

    Also, I still have SoB installed. If I want Might & Guile, should I just go for a fresh game-install? Would it mess with savegames?

    Depends on what you're trying to do. Do you just want to uninstall the WPO? In that case: do you have SCS installed after it? If SCS is there, probably best to start from a fresh install (but NB that will mess up savegames.)

    What do you have installed from SoB? If you're doing a fresh install you might as well use the newer versions in M&G. I fact right now you're better off not using SoB at all. Get out FnP beta for divine classes, use Tome & Blood for arcane casters, use M&G for tweaks/warriors/rogues, use NPC_EE for NPCs.

    Or, keep playing for a bit, and in a few weeks there should be some good updates for all of the above...

  • kakistokratkakistokrat Member Posts: 4
    Hi! great mod! I started an elven fighter mage wanting to be a bladesinger in bg:ee. I saw your comment that pomab holds the kit token in iwd and thought i would find it on some early game trader in bg too, but now i checked winthrop, friendly arm, feldeposts and thunderhammer in beregost and high hedge and no luck yet.
    A little spoiler please? ^^

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    I think it was in the Temple of Oghma in Candlekeep. You can give it to yourself with the console - I think it's called d5_blads.itm

  • kakistokratkakistokrat Member Posts: 4

    I think it was in the Temple of Oghma in Candlekeep. You can give it to yourself with the console - I think it's called d5_blads.itm

    forgot that guy even existed. thanks!

  • GawainBSGawainBS Member Posts: 501

    GawainBS said:

    Also, I still have SoB installed. If I want Might & Guile, should I just go for a fresh game-install? Would it mess with savegames?

    Depends on what you're trying to do. Do you just want to uninstall the WPO? In that case: do you have SCS installed after it? If SCS is there, probably best to start from a fresh install (but NB that will mess up savegames.)

    What do you have installed from SoB? If you're doing a fresh install you might as well use the newer versions in M&G. I fact right now you're better off not using SoB at all. Get out FnP beta for divine classes, use Tome & Blood for arcane casters, use M&G for tweaks/warriors/rogues, use NPC_EE for NPCs.

    Or, keep playing for a bit, and in a few weeks there should be some good updates for all of the above...
    I'm using the WPO and the revised Blade. I never have installed SCS.

    The problem is that SoB was installed before M&G existed.

    Bottomline: If I uninstall SoB, M&G should install properly?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    edited January 2016
    @GawainBS I think in that case I would
    1) uninstall all M&G components
    2) uninstall any SoB components you don't want, or which have bee superseded by M&G
    3) install M&G components

  • kakistokratkakistokrat Member Posts: 4
    Bladesinger proficiency progression seems not to be working as intended. extra pips at fighter(bladesinger) levels 3 and 6, not 2 and 4. I have no other kit mods installed.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    @kakistokrat, I'm pretty sure multiclass profs are hardcoded. If you're using the vanilla proficiency system, fighters get pips at levels 3 and 6, therefore fighter/mages get pips at levels 3 and 6, therefore Bladesingers get pips at levels 3 and 6.

    If (and only if) you're using the WPO, then you would get pips at levels 2 and 4. But it's a class thing, not a kit thing, so it's unrelated to the Bladesinger.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Btw @Pantalion and others should be happy with what I'm working on: I have moved the WPO to Scales of Balance (v5, which does not share a single common component with v4, which I know is weird, but just go with it).

    There, the WPO has been split into 5 modular parts:
    1) collapsed weapon categories (spears + halberds, scimitars + katanas, long bows + short bows, etc.)
    2) the major overhaul (revised prof advancement + revised prof bonuses)
    3) hardcore dual (limit advancement after dual-classing from warrior)
    4) revised fighting styles
    5) APR on Spec (prof-based APR bonuses for all classes)

    Also, I've broken out the IWO into 4 different components:
    1) magic weapon enchantment tweaks
    2) basic weapon function changes
    3) distinctions for light/heavy weapons
    4) IWDEE-specific item tweaks

    Moving the overhaul and game tweak components to SoB gives MnG some breathing room, so for v2 I'm breaking up the monolithic "revised rangers" component into 3 separate components:
    1) revised stalker kit
    2) revised archer kit
    3) revised beastmaster kit

    More choices for players, and at the same time, each mod will be more streamlined: 15 components in SoB and 24 in MnG (most of the latter are kits)

    The new versions still need some work, but I'll have pre-release versions available soon-ish. Then when FnP drops and the SoB priest kits are no longer needed, I'll be able to just flip a switch and all of these will be up and running.

    inethPantalion
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137


    5) APR on Spec (prof-based APR bonuses for all classes)

    Out of curiosity, was this supposed to be a feature in the current version? Because I seem to recall a capped M/T remaining at 1 APR with Mastery when I was testing the max proficiency for each, just as any non-warrior with 2 pips would.

  • GawainBSGawainBS Member Posts: 501

    @GawainBS I think in that case I would
    1) uninstall all M&G components
    2) uninstall any SoB components you don't want, or which have bee superseded by M&G
    3) install M&G components

    I did it, and it seems to work perfectly. I'm very grateful for this update!

    On a sidenote: do you know that Bladesingers can't use anything heavier than Studded Leather? I'm not saying they should, but the Readme does not mention it.
    They still can use Elven Chainmail and related items, right? Elven Chain is virtually developed for them.

    With regards to the Finesse style: would it be viable to grant it something like reduced spellcasting time, as the free hand helps with the gestures? Just trying to help. :smile:

  • kakistokratkakistokrat Member Posts: 4

    @kakistokrat, I'm pretty sure multiclass profs are hardcoded. If you're using the vanilla proficiency system, fighters get pips at levels 3 and 6, therefore fighter/mages get pips at levels 3 and 6, therefore Bladesingers get pips at levels 3 and 6.

    If (and only if) you're using the WPO, then you would get pips at levels 2 and 4. But it's a class thing, not a kit thing, so it's unrelated to the Bladesinger.

    I am using WPO! Regular fighters ie khalid, as well as jaheira and montaron, get their level 2 and 4 pips. Just tested a normal fighter mage, he too got his at 3 and 6, so I was obviously wrong in blaming the bladesinger kit and it seems to be a fighter mage problem (unless i have caused this myself in some mysterious way, but i have had no other class tweak mods installed so that seems unlikely).

    It's no big deal since I just use eekeeper to correct it, but i thought you might want to know:))

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Pantalion said:


    5) APR on Spec (prof-based APR bonuses for all classes)

    Out of curiosity, was this supposed to be a feature in the current version? Because I seem to recall a capped M/T remaining at 1 APR with Mastery
    Yes. But I think there's a bug there - it's either another hard-coded multiclass thing getting in the way of the mod, or else a shortcoming of my code that can be fixed. I'll investigate this weekend.

    @GawainBS sorry, I forgot to address the styles thing. For the moment, the immediate solution is to remove any crit bonus from Shield style. So with shields you get thac0 + super AC for turtling, with 2-handed you get thac0 + lots of damage, with DW you get extra APR, and with Finesse you get thac0 + AC + extra crit chance.

    I would LOVE to give an extra half attack. I would LOVE to give it a minor casting speed bonus. But Beamdog has externalized styles in such a limited way that it's impossible to do anything creative here. You can only give bonuses to:
    - main-hand thac0
    - off-hand thac0
    - overall AC
    - missile AC
    - damage
    - crit chance

    With 4 styles and so few benefits, it's hard to make them distinct and balanced.

    I will say, crit chance for Finesse is not that bad. Some bosses are immune to crits, but a lot of enemies are not. I'm playing with this plus my Stat Revisions which give increased crit chance for high INT, and I have a character who crits on rolls of 17 and higher. It helps mop up the smaller goons when you're critting every 4-5 rounds...

  • inethineth Member Posts: 555

    I will say, crit chance for Finesse is not that bad. Some bosses are immune to crits, but a lot of enemies are not. I'm playing with this plus my Stat Revisions which give increased crit chance for high INT, and I have a character who crits on rolls of 17 and higher.

    Agreed. My Elven Bladesinger has 19 INT and proficiency points in Katana and Finesse, and wields "Darkened Glory +2" - which is a Katana that gives another +5% crit chance and has an AoE curse effect on crit.

    It's very satisfying to watch her crit quite often and see that curse effect appear on all nearby enemies each time... :)

  • GawainBSGawainBS Member Posts: 501
    @subtledoctor Thanks for the explanation. If the crit chance is exclusive to Finesse, it's something.
    Can Bladesingers use Elven Chainmails?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    GawainBS said:

    Can Bladesingers use Elven Chainmails?

    I hope so? I think I gave them the same usability as Swashbucklers, or maybe Stalkers. Can those kits use elven chain?

  • inethineth Member Posts: 555
    edited January 2016
    In my (heavily modded) installation she can't.
    So I let her wear a robe instead. Stoneskin + Mirror image is all the protection she needs, anyway... :)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Fixes for the Bladesinger are already on my to-do list for the upcoming update, I'll add armor usability to the list.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    edited February 2016
    Pantalion said:

    More on proficiencies:

    Compare level 7 vanilla fighter, they get 6 pips, 2 in Longsword, 2 in TWF, 2 in Mace - Two viable weapons where they have 2 APR. All other weapons they have -2 to hit and -1/2 APR when using.

    Level 7 M&G fighter: ~13 pips? 1 in TWF, 1 in eight weapons (can't specialise at level 1), 4 in Longsword - One viable weapon where they have 2 APR, eight weapons where they have -1 APR when using.

    So, I'm coding up a revised version of the WPO. It's actually going to go in Scales of Balance v5, not in MnG, but we can talk about it here. I want it to be balanced, but more sensible and better than the vanilla system.

    One thing I want to do is get away from the idea of the 7th & 13th level APR bonuses. What is the rationale for them? Increased skill using weapons? Well, the game implements an optional ruleset weapon skill system... so shouldn't the skill-based APR gains be a part of that?

    So now ALL APR bonuses are based on proficiency. And, optionally, all classes get those benefits if they advance past basic proficiency. The only question is, what should the specific bonuses be, and how should they be arranged? Here's the vanilla system:
    +     = no combat bonuses; +.5 APR at level 7, +1 APR at level 13
    ++ = +1 thac0, +2 damage, +.5 APR, +1 APR at 7, +1.5 APR at 13
    +++ = +3 thac0, +3 damage, +.5 APR, +1 APR at 7, +1.5 APR at 13
    ++++ = +3 thac0, +4 damage, +.5 APR, +1 APR at 7, +1.5 APR at 13
    +++++ = +3 thac0, +5 damage, +1 APR, +1.5 APR at 7, +2 APR at 13
    Here's a proposal to rebalance it:
    +     = no combat bonuses; +.5 APR at level 1 (!)
    ++ = +1 thac0, +2 damage, +.5 APR at 1
    +++ = +2 thac0, +2 damage, +.5 APR at 1, +1 APR at 7
    ++++ = +3 thac0, +3 damage, +.5 APR at 1, +1 APR at 7, +1.5 APR at 11
    +++++ = +4 thac0, +5 damage, +.5 APR at 1, +1 APR at 7, +1.5 APR at 11, +2 APR at 15
    Priests could reach 2 pips, gain 1 every 5 levels.
    Rogues could reach 3 pips, gain 1 every 3 levels.
    Paladins/rangers could reach 4 pips, gain 1 every 3 levels.
    Kitted fighters could reach 4 pips, gain 1 every other level.
    Trueclass fighters could reach 5 pips, gain 1 every other level.
    Certain kits could gain 1 more/1 fewer pip in certain weapons. Certain kits could also *start* with higher proficiency in certain weapons. (Archers could begin specialized in bows, blades/swashies in a bladed weapon, etc.)

    Yeah, extra APR at level 1, for basic proficiency, for everyone. This is a bit crazy, but it would balance the supremacy of ranged weapons at very low levels, and with early characters' high thac0 it would probably not change the game balance much. (Also base thac0 for non-warriors would start at 21 instead of 20.) Further APR bonuses would be tied to skill - not a problem for fighters, who have enough pips to go around, but paladins and rangers would only be able to reach their max APR with two weapons at level 18.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    ineth
  • GawainBSGawainBS Member Posts: 501
    I would consider a level-scaling damage bonus, if that's possible.

    Also, vanilla BGII had weapon speed modifiers, but your earlier comments seem to infer that this is no longer possible?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Yeah there could be weapon speed bonuses, but I would keep them small. Increasing APR renders weapon speed more or less meaningless, so I don't think anyone should focus on weapon speed as an important aspect here.

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