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[MOD] -Might and Guile- a tweak mod and kit pack for warriors and rogues.

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Comments

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited December 2015
    Yes, clerics wielding spears is intended. Now Anomen's story makes sense! :)

    Just a note: I've been playing IWDEE with this and some other mods lately, and I want to mention one of the ways this is making the game more enjoyable:

    The WPO makes *all* non-warrior thac0 start at 21 instead of 20, which is harder. But, it also adds thac0 bonuses for fighting styles, which can offset that penalty. And the IWO adds thac0 bonuses for light weapons like hammers, clubs, daggers, short swords & quarterstaves. And the stat revisions slightly reduces the ranged bonus for high DEX, while increasing the melee thac0 bonus for mid-range STR.

    So a thief with a short sword might have a starting thac0 of 21, -1 (SWS) = 20, -1 (sh. sword) = 19, -2 (16 STR) = 17. But with 17 DEX his thac0 with a bow would be 19.

    Everyone always talks about how ranged weapons are king in BG1, and I recall characters having melee thac0 of 20 and missile thac0 of 16. But here, the more risky melee is rewarded and more viable, while risk-free ranged combat is harder. For me at least, this has made the early game noticeably more fun.

  • inethineth Member Posts: 555
    edited December 2015
    Are you sure the critical hit chance modifiers of the "Revised Stat Bonuses" component are working correctly?

    I've arrived in Kuldahar, and haven't witnessed any critical hits from my party yet, even though I gave them all 15+ INT. It's possible that I haven't been paying attention closely enough, but it is starting to feel strange.

    And look at this example:
    image

    Coril, the Elven Archer with 17 INT, somehow got an attack roll of 29 with his longbow - but it got counted as a hit rather than a crit.
    What's going on there?

    ---

    Update:

    To test it, I created a plain Fighter (race: Elf) with 19 INT, started a new game with him, and used the cheat console to give him an enchanted sword and a high character/proficiency level so that he would get high attack rolls.
    Then I sent him to the group of goblins in Easthaven, and he got no crits against them at all, even though several of his attack rolls were >20:

    image

    Then I loaded that savegame in EE Keeper, and this is what the Effects tab looks like:

    image

    Post edited by ineth on
    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,512
    @subtledoctor, if I'm not mistaken, multiple critical hit bonuses do not stack with each other, like casting speed bonuses.

    Gotural
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Hmm. So if a character has +10% crit chance, and is specialized in Single-Weapon Style and picks up a long sword, the SWS effect will override the inherent bonus and *reduce* their crit chance? That's no good.

    More importantly, from @ineth's pictures above, it seems like the INT-based bonus was never applied. But the spell that causes it was cast on the character, because the 206 effect protecting against future applications of the effect (like when dual-classing) has been applied. So something got scrambled in the spell itself. I'll look into it.

    Frankly I'm not sure I like this rule - higher crit chance for smart characters - anyway. Ayone have suggestions for some other effect to add to INT scores for non-spellcasters? Could do... thief skill bonuses (Find Traps, Set Traps, Open locks, Detect Illusion). But what for warriors?

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,014

    Hmm. So if a character has +10% crit chance, and is specialized in Single-Weapon Style and picks up a long sword, the SWS effect will override the inherent bonus and *reduce* their crit chance? That's no good.

    The opcode only overrides other uses of itself, the most recent application still stacks with any bonus from STYLBONU.2DA. STYLEBONU.2da does not override the opcode. You only need to reduce the actual bonus applied for INT by 1, since it will override the default -1 you have applied to everyone.

    While its not actually causing said problem, d5_crit3 (the one for 19+ INT) does have a +1 value for its crit bonus instead of +3.

    More importantly, from @ineth's pictures above, it seems like the INT-based bonus was never applied. But the spell that causes it was cast on the character, because the 206 effect protecting against future applications of the effect (like when dual-classing) has been applied. So something got scrambled in the spell itself. I'll look into it.

    @ineth - These are the symptoms of a Pre-gen character, is that what you were using?

    I started a new game with an 18-all Fighter, 2 stars in Longsword and SWS, and Crit on values of 17, 18, 19, and 20. Only the -1 penalty was overridden.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited December 2015
    Got it, thanks.

    EDIT - oh, and I forgot about stupid "pre-generation" bugs. IIRC, changing all of these level 1 'AP_xxxx' clab effects to delay/permanent timing should fix that.

    EDIT 2 - oh no, that's right, adding delay/permanent timing will actually *cause* the conflict with pre-generated characters. But, it should solve @ineth's issue, making sure that the INT-based bonuses are applied after the base -1 penalty. So, don't use this component with pre-generated characters!!! Sorry. Really you shouldn't make pre-generated characters anyway. Just roll a character normally and as soon as the game starts, export it. You get the exact same result, with fewer bugs.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    By the way here's another little explainer of why and how I coded one of the components: this time, the weapon specialization bonuses in the WPO. The bonuses currently look like this:
     ** = +1 thac0, +1/2 APR
    *** = +2 thac0 and +1 damage total, +1/2 APR at level 11
    **** = +2 thac0 and +2 damage total, +1/2 APR at level 7
    ***** = +3 thac0 and +4 damage total, +1/2 APR at level 15
    When I designed this system, someone asked:
    Ardul said:

    What is the idea behind APR from pips kicking in later? And why is the APR from 3 pips given much later than the one from 4 pips?

    Well, in my own current playthrough, I'm playing a bard in IWDEE. At 1st level he gained proficiency in a few melee weapons, crossbows, and single-weapon style. At 3rd level he gain specialization with longswords, and now he has 1.5 APR. At 6th level he has another point to spend, and bards can reach *** with this mod. So, how to spend that point? A third pip in longswords? In the Vanilla game that would be a no-brainer, but here the only result would be +1 thac0 and damage - the extra .5 APR doesn't kick in until 11th level.

    Instead, he could gain specialization in another weapon, maybe a blunt weapon, and immediately get the APR benefit of that. Or he could get another point in SWS, which would give +1 to thac0 and AC as well as a bonus to crit chance. Diversification is incentivized, and there are more attractive options to choose from.

    And more attractive options = more fun!

  • inethineth Member Posts: 555
    kjeron said:

    @ineth - These are the symptoms of a Pre-gen character, is that what you were using?

    Yeah, I pre-generated the characters for my party... :(

    Though when I tested it again with a plain Fighter, I believe I created him "directly", to the extent that that is possible in IWD:EE. Will retry it later to make sure.

    So, don't use this component with pre-generated characters!!! Sorry. Really you shouldn't make pre-generated characters anyway. Just roll a character normally and as soon as the game starts, export it. You get the exact same result, with fewer bugs.

    Thanks, I'll use that method from now on.

    What about my current party though, what else will be broken due to the pre-generation? I'm wondering whether I can fix them with EE Keeper, or would be better off starting a new game.

    Frankly I'm not sure I like this rule - higher crit chance for smart characters - anyway.

    I actually find the possibility of high-crit builds in these games, quite intriguing.
    Ever since I played a crit-focused rogue in Pillars of Eternity, I considered it a little unfortunate that the same option is not available (as effectively) in the Infinity Engine games.

    Of course, tying it to INT is not super "realistic" - but neither are some of the existing rules, like melee Thac0 being tied exclusively to STR.

    By the way here's another little explainer of why and how I coded one of the components: this time, the weapon specialization bonuses in the WPO. The bonuses currently look like this:

     ** = +1 thac0, +1/2 APR
    *** = +2 thac0 and +1 damage total, +1/2 APR at level 11
    **** = +2 thac0 and +2 damage total, +1/2 APR at level 7
    ***** = +3 thac0 and +4 damage total, +1/2 APR at level 15
    I kinda like the idea of these level-dependent APR bonuses.

    But I think that additionally preventing Fighters from putting more than one pip in the same weapon proficiency at character generation, goes too far. It does not encourage diversification, it enforces it - and gives me fewer interesting options rather than more.
    I realize that level 1 specialization can be abused in combination with early dual-classing, but isn't there a way to prevent that without restricting dedicated warriors?
    Just my 2 cents. Not sure if you even want balance/design feedback, or only reports of technical bugs... :)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Thing is, compared to vanilla, fighters get their specialization at level 2 instead of level 1. How much time do you spend at level 1? Very little. And warriors get a 1-point thac0 bonus *anyway* at level 1, baked right into the thac0 chart. So the only thing missing at level 1 is the damage bonus - which my prof chart removes anyway. And you can make up for that by taking points in weapon styles,

    By level 4 both systems are equal for fighters, and from level 8 onward my system is much more generous.

    Rangers are set back a tiny bit, but they have interesting bonuses, including free specialization in dual-wielding. Only paladins are meaningfully disadvantaged (slightly) by this system... I'm not sure what to do about that... maybe give them innate use of the "Aid" spell for situational boosts?
    ineth said:

    What about my current party though, what else will be broken due to the pre-generation? I'm wondering whether I can fix them with EE Keeper, or would be better off starting a new game.

    The only thing pre-generation breaks are effects governed by scripts (like my INT and CHA bonuses) and effects that happen on a delay (of which my mod has none.) Just to clarify, I don't think your missing crit bonus was due to pre-generating... that was a misdiagnosis. I think it happened because the crit bonus and the permanent immunity to any crit bonuses happened simultaneously. Or maybe pre-generating was involved, because the immunity happens while you're still in the character sheet and the bonus is applied by a script from an invisible creature, which cannot happen until the game clock starts running. And with pre-generated characters, any effects that rely on the game clock running don't occur... even when the game clock starts running.

    (This is part of the reason I scrapped my old proficiency system.)

    But my FIX for the issue - to delay the crit bonus immunity until the game clock starts running - won't work with pre-generated characters either. So if you pre-generate with M&G v1.6.1, you won't get INT-based crit bonuses... but you won't lose the basic 5% crit chance either. It's a compromise.

    But like I say, the whole pre-generation thing is screwy, I would generally avoid it.

    ineth
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Meanwhile, here are some interesting findings about my recent change to IWD speed weapons:

    Depending on random drops, you can get TWO "Long Swords of Action +4," each of which gives a +1 bonus to APR. Imagine two
    Belms, and both +4... crazy. Some balance-minded players actually complained, because these are much more powerful than they were in vanilla IWD, where you couldn't dual-wield two weapons.

    My response was to edit these weapons to SET base APR to 2, rather than giving bonus APR. My intent was, the APR effects wouldn't stack, so you would only get 3 APR even when wielding both at the same time.

    The results, however, are much more interesting.

    Turns out, the "set APR" equipping effect does NOT set the *character's* base APR... it sets the *weapon's* base APR. Equip a Long Sword of Action (LSoA) in your main hand, and you get 2 APR. Add a short sword in your off-hand, and you get 3 APR. Switch them: short sword in main hand and LSoA in off-hand, still 3 APR. All of this is expected.

    But when you dual-wield two LSoAs, [i]you get 4 APR[/i]. Unexpected! I can only conclude that you are getting 2 base main-hand APR [i]plus 2 base off-hand APR.[/i]. Which in turns means that, when you have a short sword in main hand and LSoA in off-hand, you were actually getting 1 main-hand APR and 2 off-hand APR. The game doesn't tell you this - it only shows your total APR, it doesn't tell you how many attacks come from each hand.

    Let's add weapon specialization into the mix. Say you have GM in short swords, with BG2EE rules, so an extra +1 APR for GM. Now: equip a short sword in your main hand and a LSoA in your off-hand: you get 4 APR total. Again, [i]I think[/i] this is really 2 main-hand plus 2 off-hand.

    Switch them: LSoA in main-hand and GM short sword in off-hand. Now your total APR drops to 3. My conclusion: APR bonuses for weapon specialization do not work for off-hand weapons.

    I find this all to be fascinating, and I think this system is more fun and balanced than vanilla. Another thing my mod does is give daggers 3/2 base APR... my intent was that a RR-modded thief could get 5/2 APR when dual-wielding daggers, but in reality they get a full 3 APR! Which is great.

    The immediate practical upshot is that this change means I can limit cheesy abuse of off-handing Belm in BG2. Just switch it to set base APR to 2, and it will only give you extra attacks with itself, not with the FoA or Crom Faeyr.

    Skatan
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,718
    You should be able to test that by attacking something and looking at the attack rolls. The bonuses should be different for the main hand and off hand, so if it's really 2 main + 2 off, you should be able to see it. Turn on auto-pause for the end of the round so you can see a full round's attacks.

  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 56
    edited January 2016
    I adore the changes to SR and saving throws, but a little confused about a change to the Monk. Is their THAC0 meant to be reduced, is there a way to turn that off?

    Post edited by Halcyon on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    @Halcyon which components have you installed? And what do you mean by "reduced?" Improved, or made worse?

    What is the baseline for monk thac0, and what are you seeing?

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,388
    Quick question. Which files do I need to delete from my override if I want to uninstall kensai and berserker kit changes? I have added quite a lot of mods after the mod so I don't want to uninstall via weidu. I don't care about game text, I just want the kits to work as before.

    I loved the ideas, but on Ipad, choosing a kensai is a hassle as when I choose weapon mastery from innate ability, there is no toolbox that reads what weapon is in what icon, so I can not choose a spesific weapon easily, needed a tons of reloads until I found the correct one. Also I just want Korgan to be as the old berserker, too. Which files are edited and which should I delete to undo the changes to these two kits? (I have an old version of the mod, if it matters)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited January 2016
    @lunar, honestly I don't remember off the top of my head. You could remove the CLAB files from the override folder... there's clabfi02.2da, clabfi03.2da, and clabfi04.2da - two of those are berserker and kensai, one is the wizard slayer. If you look at kitlist.2da in NI you can see which is which.

    BUT, those CLAB files may have been edited in other ways by other mods or other parts of the mod. So, just removing them might cause other stuff to not work as intended. You might be able to tell by comparing the modified CLABs to the original ones.

    I don't know the .spl file for berserker rage - you can probably find out by googling - but removing that one file from your override folder might completely revert berserkers to their original behavior. For the weapon proficiencies, you have to open weapprof.2da in NI and edit the Berserker column.

    Kensai are more problematic unfortunately, and I'm not sure what to tell you. I thought you can long-press on the ability to read its description without casting it?? Does that only work as of the 1.4 patch/IWDEE?

    When I have the time I'll probably change the kensai ability to be dialogue-based instead of button-based. That should help. But, I'm not going to have the time until ~April :(

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,388
    Thanks for the suggestions, I will try and see what I can do. Much appreciated! I thought about the berserker rage innate spell, but IIRC there are some weapon proficiency rules, too. Korgan in my game has 5 pips in axes as usual but normal berserkers can not have 5 pips. I may count this as an npc quirk, there are tons of those in bg1 and bg2 npcs.

    IIRC long pressing did not work for kensai innate weapon choice selection, on Ipad. A dialogue would be better, I agree.
    Thank you again!

  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 56

    @Halcyon which components have you installed? And what do you mean by "reduced?" Improved, or made worse?

    What is the baseline for monk thac0, and what are you seeing?

    I had run the gamut of mods initially, have since tried installing only M&G and seen the same effects. I'll have to get back to my computer to make sure, but I think his base to hit was three higher (worse at hitting the things) than Minsc.

    I think the regular THAC0 for monks in BGII is normally the same as other warrior classes.

  • SilesiusSilesius Member Posts: 1
    Hi,
    i'm really interested in the whole new WPO mechanics. I'm starting to play IWDEE with a dual Berserker/Cleric, a dual Fighter/Mage and a multi Fighter/Thief/Mage.

    The basic idea is to dual at lvl. 9 with both of the dual-class characters to gain Grandmastery in a weapon. For roleplaying/flavour purposes I wanted a sword-wielding Cleric and here your mod kicks in. I've read the changelog but nonetheless I've some unresolved questions. In order:

    1) Do I gain G. Mastery in a weapon using the Berserker kit (instead of pure Fighter class)?
    2) Do Fighters reach access to G. Mastery at lvl. 9 like in the vanilla game?
    3) When I'll dual-class my Fighter to Cleric, can I continue to use restricted weapons like swords or this option is available only to pure Clerics?

    Thank you for the help, kind sir.
    Have a nice day. ☺

    P. S. : sorry for my english and nice nickname btw, I'm a Duns Scoto fan.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Hey, first, something I forgot to answer before:

    @Halcyon the monk thac0 table in the WPO is based on the cleric table because, well, they are "monks!" "Monk" meaning a religious order, which, oh yes, "cleric" means the same thing. So I just assumed.

    ("But," I hear the objection, "monks are supposed to be super badass! Shaolin warriors in medieval England, smashing full plate to pieces with their bare fists, etc. etc.!" Yes, but whenever you see that kind of thing in the movies, it's always the best, most experienced, most elite monk. Usually the novices get slaughtered. In the WPO currently, monks reach thac0 6, which is the same as an 18th level fighter. Seems to me, that's pretty powerful, especially coupled with natural 4 APR and the absurd 1-20 damage per hit.)

    Nevertheless, I just checked and I see that vanilla monks are actually on the *fighter* thac0 table. Sigh. So I will give up on, y'know, logic, and do the same. And my hatred of what Bioware did to this stupid class will continue to burn with the heat of a thousand suns... :(

    @Silesius I actually had to check, but here are the answers:

    1) Berserkers in the WPO reach high mastery (++++) in big berserker-y weapons (spears, greatswords, longswords, axes, maces, clubs, that kind of stuff) and proficiency (+) in missile weapons. They can use 2-hand weapon style or dual-wielding. They get points every other level, so they can reach (++++) by 6th level, and then max out a style at 8th (2-hand) or 10th (DW).

    So berserkers miss out on 0.5 APR. If you use the Revised Berserker Rage component, Rage becomes more of a combat buff (that 'logic' thing again), trading some mental immunities to regain that extra 0.5 APR.

    2) True fighters can reach GM at level 8. NB however, not all of the APR bonuses kick in that quickly. The final 2 happen at level 11 and level 15. So to maximize efficiency, you might want to dual at level 8 (GM) or 11 (APR).

    Now that I think about it, I honestly don't know whether the APR bonuses from WSPATCK.2da are limited by the level you dual at, or any level. Probably the latter. In which case you could dual at 8 and still max out APR when you hit level 15 in your new class. I'm not sure, though.

    3) As a pure cleric you will be limited in what proficiencies you can gain. But you'll still be able to *use* edged weapons (with a big thac0 penalty). Once you reactivate your fighter class you'll be able to put points in any weapon.

    Be aware, once you dual-class, your future max proficiency level with any new weapons will be mastery (+++). So your berserker can get (++++) in axes, then dual, and axes will be the only weapon he can ever get (++++) in.

  • HalcyonHalcyon Member Posts: 56
    I think it has a lot to do with the class and engine limitations, a lot of things Monks can do are best represented by trips, climbing, grappling, esoteric magic-things... in an infinity engine so much of what effects your character has is damage output or spell disruption/controlling. Coming down to the effect that monks actually have on the battlefield, if their punches/kicks/what-haveyou aren't landing...

    Anyway, thanks =)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Hmm... mulling more structural changes to reduce bloat. Maybe revive Scales of Balance to handle the balance-related, tweak-y components; and leave M&G with just stuff relating to warriors and rogues. That way I could break some components down into smaller parts, the way the old SoB 'warrior tweaks' became 4 different components in M&G. The IWO could stand to be broken up, and maybe the WPO as well (*maybe*).

    But, that's a lot of big changes within s year or two, players might get confused.

    If I go ahead with this, the end result would be (in install order):

    Faiths & Powers =
    - choose deity by dialogue
    - cleric kits
    - druid kits
    - paladin kits
    - multiclass cleric/druid kits
    - spell sphere system
    Might & Guile =
    - RCO (eventually)
    - kensai/zerker/ranger/bard revisions
    - fighter kits
    - ranger kits
    - thief kits
    - bard kits
    - multiclass warrior/rogue kits
    Scales of Balance =
    - stat/HD/XP/spell table revisions
    - monk fist revision (or should this be in M&G?)
    - quickstride
    - IWO (broken down into multiple components)
    - WPO (broken down also...??)
    - STO
    - MRO
    NPC_EE =
    - NPC class changes
    - switch kit by dialogue

  • agb1agb1 Member Posts: 249
    Usual practice is to install kits after other tweaks. Your proposed sequence reverses / mixes them. Is that necessary?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    I haven't figured out the exact details yet, but the idea is that SoB and NPC_EE would be stuff meant for way, way down at the end of the install order. I started thinking about this because of that error someone reported about my stat revisions component having an adverse reaction with SCS. And the MRO should really go after aTweaks and any other mod that adds items or creatures.

    BWS can easily install different components at different times, but for the benefit of non-BWS-users, the mods should really be structured in the order of ideal installation.

    Pantalion
  • agb1agb1 Member Posts: 249
    edited January 2016
    Agreed. However BWS only uses a single installation order at the moment (it can be modified by the user but we don't recommend it because that becomes yet another variable causing compatibility issues). When multiple mods say "install me last" it is difficult to accommodate them. Ideally, components would be discrete enough that players can pick exactly what they want (really, NOT install what they DON'T want), rather than relying on precedence to determine the final result through overwriting. Also, if we use a fixed install order, later mods can reliably check for earlier mods and apply compatibility patches automatically (as yours do for e.g. Spell Revisions and Divine Remix among others). We can adjust the installation order *a bit* to make this easier, particularly by putting mods that have cross-mod/compatibility code after the mods that they "know" about.

    Correction: kits before tweaks, not after. The general installation order we seem to follow is this: new quests/areas, new items, new NPCs, new kits, tweaks, AI mods (arguably a special category of tweaks), "other stuff" and then graphics/cosmetic finishers (portraits, sounds, UI mods, etc.).

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Right. My IWO and WPO are designed to go after most tweaks (especially BG2Tweaks) and my kits are designed to go after the WPO. So my kits were always the odd ducks as far as installation order goes.

    But if I re-work the WPO to go after my kits, then the kits can be installed earlier. It'll be a fair amount of work - don't expect this for a few weeks/months - but it will normalize things.

    This change would also let me break up the IWO into constituent parts, which will make it more compatible with IR. (Currently it conflicts with IT's "dual-wielding changes" component.$

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    So... Take this with a grain of salt, because I ran into this this morning before work and didn't have time to check it exhaustively, but multiclass kits appear to be experiencing the same type of problem as I'd expect were I Keepering a kit to a multiclass - the kits appear to be using the multiclass table, and not the kit table.

    So like a multi Swashbuckler/Mage could only gain proficiency, not Specialisation, and an Assassin gains 25 skill points a level, the Bladesinger can only three pip Longswords and Scimitars, but can also three pip everything else, just as though they were a regular F/M.

    There's also a long diatribe of weirdness repeating Garren's child's dialogue while it zeroes and reallocates my characters (several times, for my CHARNAME), but I assume that's possibly a conflict of some kind with T&B, so I'll try a new game after switching it out.

  • inethineth Member Posts: 555
    Pantalion said:

    the Bladesinger can only three pip Longswords and Scimitars, but can also three pip everything else, just as though they were a regular F/M.

    I noticed that too... (but forgot to report it - sorry about that).

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited January 2016
    Yeah, I think that's hard-coded... nothing I can do, except change the readme. :(

    Well, I guess I could grant mastery and GM by CLAB effect at higher levels... but then players could game tha system by *avoiding* taking points in longsword, and then get 4 free profs instead of 1.

    (That kind of thing is why my attempt to make moderate changes to the proficiency system ended up as a major overhaul of the rules in a dozen different areas of the game...)

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    Yeah, I think that's hard-coded... nothing I can do, except change the readme. :(

    Well, I guess I could grant mastery and GM by CLAB effect at higher levels... but then players could game tha system by *avoiding* taking points in longsword, and then get 4 free profs instead of 1.

    (That kind of thing is why my attempt to make moderate changes to the proficiency system ended up as a major overhaul of the rules in a dozen different areas of the game...)

    How about "artificial" bonuses? Rather than adding proficiency points, at level X Bladesinger gets 1/2 an attack and +X to hit/damage while wielding Scimitar/Long Sword/Short Sword weapons, just as though they added a pip beyond the norm.

    Meanwhile they could suffer hit/damage penalties to other weapon types, so a Bladesinger putting 3 pips into Axe, for example, gets the same benefits as a non-bladesinger would get with 1 pip?

    They could still ignore proficiencies, but ultimately it wouldn't be in the player's interest to do so.

    I don't think it's possible to do the same thing with thief skills or backstab, but I don't believe any of your multikits change them.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    More on proficiencies:

    Fighter/Mages - At cap, they can have 3 pips maximum in their available, single handed, weapons, and do not gain additional attacks per round based on fighter level. This means they're more or less capped at 2 APR, since they lack dual-wield proficiency.
    Fighter/Clerics - At cap, they can have 3 pips maximum in any weapon or style, and don't gain additional attacks per round based on fighter level. They can hit 4 APR thanks to unrestricted access to Belm.
    Fighter/Thief - At cap, they can have 4 pips maximum in a restricted range.

    Not only is Fighter APR by level being removed from their class features not mentioned the readme (which isn't inherently a problem, but a fairly significant change that should probably be mentioned), the proficiencies available to F/M and F/C appear to be wrong, and work out as a significant downgrade to both since they lose 1/2 APR they should normally get from specialisation.

    Assuming (that was all I could test on my lunch break) M/Ts get the readme suggested 3 pips and get the extra attack from mastery, then the only difference between an F/M and an M/T is 6 THAC0 and that the M/T has more options.

    This, I would suggest, runs contrary to the suggested design goal of "expanding weapon variety", because specialisation is now more, not less, important. It is the only means of gaining APR.

    Compare level 7 vanilla fighter, they get 6 pips, 2 in Longsword, 2 in TWF, 2 in Mace - Two viable weapons where they have 2 APR. All other weapons they have -2 to hit and -1/2 APR when using.

    Level 7 M&G fighter: ~13 pips? 1 in TWF, 1 in eight weapons (can't specialise at level 1), 4 in Longsword - One viable weapon where they have 2 APR, eight weapons where they have -1 APR when using.

    There is clearly less disincentive for the vanilla fighter to use a weapon they aren't practised in.

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