Are you sure the critical hit chance modifiers of the "Revised Stat Bonuses" component are working correctly?
I've arrived in Kuldahar, and haven't witnessed any critical hits from my party yet, even though I gave them all 15+ INT. It's possible that I haven't been paying attention closely enough, but it is starting to feel strange.
And look at this example:
Coril, the Elven Archer with 17 INT, somehow got an attack roll of 29 with his longbow - but it got counted as a hit rather than a crit. What's going on there?
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Update:
To test it, I created a plain Fighter (race: Elf) with 19 INT, started a new game with him, and used the cheat console to give him an enchanted sword and a high character/proficiency level so that he would get high attack rolls. Then I sent him to the group of goblins in Easthaven, and he got no crits against them at all, even though several of his attack rolls were >20:
Then I loaded that savegame in EE Keeper, and this is what the Effects tab looks like:
Hmm. So if a character has +10% crit chance, and is specialized in Single-Weapon Style and picks up a long sword, the SWS effect will override the inherent bonus and *reduce* their crit chance? That's no good.
The opcode only overrides other uses of itself, the most recent application still stacks with any bonus from STYLBONU.2DA. STYLEBONU.2da does not override the opcode. You only need to reduce the actual bonus applied for INT by 1, since it will override the default -1 you have applied to everyone.
While its not actually causing said problem, d5_crit3 (the one for 19+ INT) does have a +1 value for its crit bonus instead of +3.
More importantly, from @ineth's pictures above, it seems like the INT-based bonus was never applied. But the spell that causes it was cast on the character, because the 206 effect protecting against future applications of the effect (like when dual-classing) has been applied. So something got scrambled in the spell itself. I'll look into it.
@ineth - These are the symptoms of a Pre-gen character, is that what you were using?
I started a new game with an 18-all Fighter, 2 stars in Longsword and SWS, and Crit on values of 17, 18, 19, and 20. Only the -1 penalty was overridden.
@ineth - These are the symptoms of a Pre-gen character, is that what you were using?
Yeah, I pre-generated the characters for my party...
Though when I tested it again with a plain Fighter, I believe I created him "directly", to the extent that that is possible in IWD:EE. Will retry it later to make sure.
So, don't use this component with pre-generated characters!!! Sorry. Really you shouldn't make pre-generated characters anyway. Just roll a character normally and as soon as the game starts, export it. You get the exact same result, with fewer bugs.
Thanks, I'll use that method from now on.
What about my current party though, what else will be broken due to the pre-generation? I'm wondering whether I can fix them with EE Keeper, or would be better off starting a new game.
Frankly I'm not sure I like this rule - higher crit chance for smart characters - anyway.
I actually find the possibility of high-crit builds in these games, quite intriguing. Ever since I played a crit-focused rogue in Pillars of Eternity, I considered it a little unfortunate that the same option is not available (as effectively) in the Infinity Engine games.
Of course, tying it to INT is not super "realistic" - but neither are some of the existing rules, like melee Thac0 being tied exclusively to STR.
By the way here's another little explainer of why and how I coded one of the components: this time, the weapon specialization bonuses in the WPO. The bonuses currently look like this:
** = +1 thac0, +1/2 APR *** = +2 thac0 and +1 damage total, +1/2 APR at level 11 **** = +2 thac0 and +2 damage total, +1/2 APR at level 7 ***** = +3 thac0 and +4 damage total, +1/2 APR at level 15
I kinda like the idea of these level-dependent APR bonuses.
But I think that additionally preventing Fighters from putting more than one pip in the same weapon proficiency at character generation, goes too far. It does not encourage diversification, it enforces it - and gives me fewer interesting options rather than more. I realize that level 1 specialization can be abused in combination with early dual-classing, but isn't there a way to prevent that without restricting dedicated warriors? Just my 2 cents. Not sure if you even want balance/design feedback, or only reports of technical bugs...
You should be able to test that by attacking something and looking at the attack rolls. The bonuses should be different for the main hand and off hand, so if it's really 2 main + 2 off, you should be able to see it. Turn on auto-pause for the end of the round so you can see a full round's attacks.
I adore the changes to SR and saving throws, but a little confused about a change to the Monk. Is their THAC0 meant to be reduced, is there a way to turn that off?
Quick question. Which files do I need to delete from my override if I want to uninstall kensai and berserker kit changes? I have added quite a lot of mods after the mod so I don't want to uninstall via weidu. I don't care about game text, I just want the kits to work as before.
I loved the ideas, but on Ipad, choosing a kensai is a hassle as when I choose weapon mastery from innate ability, there is no toolbox that reads what weapon is in what icon, so I can not choose a spesific weapon easily, needed a tons of reloads until I found the correct one. Also I just want Korgan to be as the old berserker, too. Which files are edited and which should I delete to undo the changes to these two kits? (I have an old version of the mod, if it matters)
Thanks for the suggestions, I will try and see what I can do. Much appreciated! I thought about the berserker rage innate spell, but IIRC there are some weapon proficiency rules, too. Korgan in my game has 5 pips in axes as usual but normal berserkers can not have 5 pips. I may count this as an npc quirk, there are tons of those in bg1 and bg2 npcs.
IIRC long pressing did not work for kensai innate weapon choice selection, on Ipad. A dialogue would be better, I agree. Thank you again!
@Halcyon which components have you installed? And what do you mean by "reduced?" Improved, or made worse?
What is the baseline for monk thac0, and what are you seeing?
I had run the gamut of mods initially, have since tried installing only M&G and seen the same effects. I'll have to get back to my computer to make sure, but I think his base to hit was three higher (worse at hitting the things) than Minsc.
I think the regular THAC0 for monks in BGII is normally the same as other warrior classes.
Hi, i'm really interested in the whole new WPO mechanics. I'm starting to play IWDEE with a dual Berserker/Cleric, a dual Fighter/Mage and a multi Fighter/Thief/Mage.
The basic idea is to dual at lvl. 9 with both of the dual-class characters to gain Grandmastery in a weapon. For roleplaying/flavour purposes I wanted a sword-wielding Cleric and here your mod kicks in. I've read the changelog but nonetheless I've some unresolved questions. In order:
1) Do I gain G. Mastery in a weapon using the Berserker kit (instead of pure Fighter class)? 2) Do Fighters reach access to G. Mastery at lvl. 9 like in the vanilla game? 3) When I'll dual-class my Fighter to Cleric, can I continue to use restricted weapons like swords or this option is available only to pure Clerics?
Thank you for the help, kind sir. Have a nice day. ☺
P. S. : sorry for my english and nice nickname btw, I'm a Duns Scoto fan.
I think it has a lot to do with the class and engine limitations, a lot of things Monks can do are best represented by trips, climbing, grappling, esoteric magic-things... in an infinity engine so much of what effects your character has is damage output or spell disruption/controlling. Coming down to the effect that monks actually have on the battlefield, if their punches/kicks/what-haveyou aren't landing...
Agreed. However BWS only uses a single installation order at the moment (it can be modified by the user but we don't recommend it because that becomes yet another variable causing compatibility issues). When multiple mods say "install me last" it is difficult to accommodate them. Ideally, components would be discrete enough that players can pick exactly what they want (really, NOT install what they DON'T want), rather than relying on precedence to determine the final result through overwriting. Also, if we use a fixed install order, later mods can reliably check for earlier mods and apply compatibility patches automatically (as yours do for e.g. Spell Revisions and Divine Remix among others). We can adjust the installation order *a bit* to make this easier, particularly by putting mods that have cross-mod/compatibility code after the mods that they "know" about.
Correction: kits before tweaks, not after. The general installation order we seem to follow is this: new quests/areas, new items, new NPCs, new kits, tweaks, AI mods (arguably a special category of tweaks), "other stuff" and then graphics/cosmetic finishers (portraits, sounds, UI mods, etc.).
So... Take this with a grain of salt, because I ran into this this morning before work and didn't have time to check it exhaustively, but multiclass kits appear to be experiencing the same type of problem as I'd expect were I Keepering a kit to a multiclass - the kits appear to be using the multiclass table, and not the kit table.
So like a multi Swashbuckler/Mage could only gain proficiency, not Specialisation, and an Assassin gains 25 skill points a level, the Bladesinger can only three pip Longswords and Scimitars, but can also three pip everything else, just as though they were a regular F/M.
There's also a long diatribe of weirdness repeating Garren's child's dialogue while it zeroes and reallocates my characters (several times, for my CHARNAME), but I assume that's possibly a conflict of some kind with T&B, so I'll try a new game after switching it out.
Yeah, I think that's hard-coded... nothing I can do, except change the readme.
Well, I guess I could grant mastery and GM by CLAB effect at higher levels... but then players could game tha system by *avoiding* taking points in longsword, and then get 4 free profs instead of 1.
(That kind of thing is why my attempt to make moderate changes to the proficiency system ended up as a major overhaul of the rules in a dozen different areas of the game...)
How about "artificial" bonuses? Rather than adding proficiency points, at level X Bladesinger gets 1/2 an attack and +X to hit/damage while wielding Scimitar/Long Sword/Short Sword weapons, just as though they added a pip beyond the norm.
Meanwhile they could suffer hit/damage penalties to other weapon types, so a Bladesinger putting 3 pips into Axe, for example, gets the same benefits as a non-bladesinger would get with 1 pip?
They could still ignore proficiencies, but ultimately it wouldn't be in the player's interest to do so.
I don't think it's possible to do the same thing with thief skills or backstab, but I don't believe any of your multikits change them.
Fighter/Mages - At cap, they can have 3 pips maximum in their available, single handed, weapons, and do not gain additional attacks per round based on fighter level. This means they're more or less capped at 2 APR, since they lack dual-wield proficiency. Fighter/Clerics - At cap, they can have 3 pips maximum in any weapon or style, and don't gain additional attacks per round based on fighter level. They can hit 4 APR thanks to unrestricted access to Belm. Fighter/Thief - At cap, they can have 4 pips maximum in a restricted range.
Not only is Fighter APR by level being removed from their class features not mentioned the readme (which isn't inherently a problem, but a fairly significant change that should probably be mentioned), the proficiencies available to F/M and F/C appear to be wrong, and work out as a significant downgrade to both since they lose 1/2 APR they should normally get from specialisation.
Assuming (that was all I could test on my lunch break) M/Ts get the readme suggested 3 pips and get the extra attack from mastery, then the only difference between an F/M and an M/T is 6 THAC0 and that the M/T has more options.
This, I would suggest, runs contrary to the suggested design goal of "expanding weapon variety", because specialisation is now more, not less, important. It is the only means of gaining APR.
Compare level 7 vanilla fighter, they get 6 pips, 2 in Longsword, 2 in TWF, 2 in Mace - Two viable weapons where they have 2 APR. All other weapons they have -2 to hit and -1/2 APR when using.
Level 7 M&G fighter: ~13 pips? 1 in TWF, 1 in eight weapons (can't specialise at level 1), 4 in Longsword - One viable weapon where they have 2 APR, eight weapons where they have -1 APR when using.
There is clearly less disincentive for the vanilla fighter to use a weapon they aren't practised in.
Comments
I've arrived in Kuldahar, and haven't witnessed any critical hits from my party yet, even though I gave them all 15+ INT. It's possible that I haven't been paying attention closely enough, but it is starting to feel strange.
And look at this example:
Coril, the Elven Archer with 17 INT, somehow got an attack roll of 29 with his longbow - but it got counted as a hit rather than a crit.
What's going on there?
---
Update:
To test it, I created a plain Fighter (race: Elf) with 19 INT, started a new game with him, and used the cheat console to give him an enchanted sword and a high character/proficiency level so that he would get high attack rolls.
Then I sent him to the group of goblins in Easthaven, and he got no crits against them at all, even though several of his attack rolls were >20:
Then I loaded that savegame in EE Keeper, and this is what the Effects tab looks like:
While its not actually causing said problem, d5_crit3 (the one for 19+ INT) does have a +1 value for its crit bonus instead of +3. @ineth - These are the symptoms of a Pre-gen character, is that what you were using?
I started a new game with an 18-all Fighter, 2 stars in Longsword and SWS, and Crit on values of 17, 18, 19, and 20. Only the -1 penalty was overridden.
Though when I tested it again with a plain Fighter, I believe I created him "directly", to the extent that that is possible in IWD:EE. Will retry it later to make sure. Thanks, I'll use that method from now on.
What about my current party though, what else will be broken due to the pre-generation? I'm wondering whether I can fix them with EE Keeper, or would be better off starting a new game. I actually find the possibility of high-crit builds in these games, quite intriguing.
Ever since I played a crit-focused rogue in Pillars of Eternity, I considered it a little unfortunate that the same option is not available (as effectively) in the Infinity Engine games.
Of course, tying it to INT is not super "realistic" - but neither are some of the existing rules, like melee Thac0 being tied exclusively to STR. I kinda like the idea of these level-dependent APR bonuses.
But I think that additionally preventing Fighters from putting more than one pip in the same weapon proficiency at character generation, goes too far. It does not encourage diversification, it enforces it - and gives me fewer interesting options rather than more.
I realize that level 1 specialization can be abused in combination with early dual-classing, but isn't there a way to prevent that without restricting dedicated warriors?
Just my 2 cents. Not sure if you even want balance/design feedback, or only reports of technical bugs...
I loved the ideas, but on Ipad, choosing a kensai is a hassle as when I choose weapon mastery from innate ability, there is no toolbox that reads what weapon is in what icon, so I can not choose a spesific weapon easily, needed a tons of reloads until I found the correct one. Also I just want Korgan to be as the old berserker, too. Which files are edited and which should I delete to undo the changes to these two kits? (I have an old version of the mod, if it matters)
IIRC long pressing did not work for kensai innate weapon choice selection, on Ipad. A dialogue would be better, I agree.
Thank you again!
I think the regular THAC0 for monks in BGII is normally the same as other warrior classes.
i'm really interested in the whole new WPO mechanics. I'm starting to play IWDEE with a dual Berserker/Cleric, a dual Fighter/Mage and a multi Fighter/Thief/Mage.
The basic idea is to dual at lvl. 9 with both of the dual-class characters to gain Grandmastery in a weapon. For roleplaying/flavour purposes I wanted a sword-wielding Cleric and here your mod kicks in. I've read the changelog but nonetheless I've some unresolved questions. In order:
1) Do I gain G. Mastery in a weapon using the Berserker kit (instead of pure Fighter class)?
2) Do Fighters reach access to G. Mastery at lvl. 9 like in the vanilla game?
3) When I'll dual-class my Fighter to Cleric, can I continue to use restricted weapons like swords or this option is available only to pure Clerics?
Thank you for the help, kind sir.
Have a nice day. ☺
P. S. : sorry for my english and nice nickname btw, I'm a Duns Scoto fan.
Anyway, thanks
Correction: kits before tweaks, not after. The general installation order we seem to follow is this: new quests/areas, new items, new NPCs, new kits, tweaks, AI mods (arguably a special category of tweaks), "other stuff" and then graphics/cosmetic finishers (portraits, sounds, UI mods, etc.).
So like a multi Swashbuckler/Mage could only gain proficiency, not Specialisation, and an Assassin gains 25 skill points a level, the Bladesinger can only three pip Longswords and Scimitars, but can also three pip everything else, just as though they were a regular F/M.
There's also a long diatribe of weirdness repeating Garren's child's dialogue while it zeroes and reallocates my characters (several times, for my CHARNAME), but I assume that's possibly a conflict of some kind with T&B, so I'll try a new game after switching it out.
Meanwhile they could suffer hit/damage penalties to other weapon types, so a Bladesinger putting 3 pips into Axe, for example, gets the same benefits as a non-bladesinger would get with 1 pip?
They could still ignore proficiencies, but ultimately it wouldn't be in the player's interest to do so.
I don't think it's possible to do the same thing with thief skills or backstab, but I don't believe any of your multikits change them.
Fighter/Mages - At cap, they can have 3 pips maximum in their available, single handed, weapons, and do not gain additional attacks per round based on fighter level. This means they're more or less capped at 2 APR, since they lack dual-wield proficiency.
Fighter/Clerics - At cap, they can have 3 pips maximum in any weapon or style, and don't gain additional attacks per round based on fighter level. They can hit 4 APR thanks to unrestricted access to Belm.
Fighter/Thief - At cap, they can have 4 pips maximum in a restricted range.
Not only is Fighter APR by level being removed from their class features not mentioned the readme (which isn't inherently a problem, but a fairly significant change that should probably be mentioned), the proficiencies available to F/M and F/C appear to be wrong, and work out as a significant downgrade to both since they lose 1/2 APR they should normally get from specialisation.
Assuming (that was all I could test on my lunch break) M/Ts get the readme suggested 3 pips and get the extra attack from mastery, then the only difference between an F/M and an M/T is 6 THAC0 and that the M/T has more options.
This, I would suggest, runs contrary to the suggested design goal of "expanding weapon variety", because specialisation is now more, not less, important. It is the only means of gaining APR.
Compare level 7 vanilla fighter, they get 6 pips, 2 in Longsword, 2 in TWF, 2 in Mace - Two viable weapons where they have 2 APR. All other weapons they have -2 to hit and -1/2 APR when using.
Level 7 M&G fighter: ~13 pips? 1 in TWF, 1 in eight weapons (can't specialise at level 1), 4 in Longsword - One viable weapon where they have 2 APR, eight weapons where they have -1 APR when using.
There is clearly less disincentive for the vanilla fighter to use a weapon they aren't practised in.