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[MOD] -Might and Guile- a tweak mod and kit pack for warriors and rogues.

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Comments

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,523
    Scrolls in BG2 tend to boil down to scribing material or merchant fodder. They seldom ever get used to cast spells directly because they're so expensive.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Hmmm... looks like I opened up a can of worms!

    Let's just get the lid back on there...

    :sweat_smile:

    bob_veng
  • DemonicDemonic Member Posts: 75
    Hi there a quickie question... I would really like to try out new playthrough of IWD:EE using some of those multi class kits, but before I do it I would really like to know more about using them than just: "You'll need some totem or whatever to be one" which is more or less what readme says. I don't want to miss said item, especially since I want to try a rather unusual party combination, which should work, but not having the kit I planned for could potentially rather ruin the party :D So... can anyone slap me with some minor spoilers, please? :)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    You won't miss them. You can buy them from Pomab in Easthaven as soon as you start the game. If you go to Kuldahar, you can buy the from the gnome with the crashed airship. (I never remember his name!)

  • DemonicDemonic Member Posts: 75
    Why thank you! One more question, do the character need to be some specific multiclass for the item to work? I.e. Fighter/mage for elven bladesinger? I would guess so, but I just want to be sure.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Elven fighter/mage for Bladesinger, any mage/thief for Spellfilcher, any cleric/mage for Spellbender or Monitor, any cleric/thief for Nightrunner, and any fighter/cleric for Gloryblood. Halfling cleric/thief for Misadventurer, halfling fighter/cleric for Hearthguard, and dwarven fighter/cleric for Alaghor.

  • DemonicDemonic Member Posts: 75
    Thank you again. Here have a :cookie: for your patience. And eat it quick there are rumours about some ferret that steals them... ;)

    semiticgod
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    edited November 2015
    Hmm... looks like my Charisma-based save bonuses are not working. The Luck bonus works though. Should be fixable.

    Aside from fixing a few bugs, here's what's in the hopper for future plans:

    - More goodies for the Beastmaster, which will get either 1) an animal familiar, maybe a ferret; (this will be hard to do) or 2) a Totemic Druid-style Spirit Animal Companion (this will be super-easy to do). I'll probably go with #2: replace the use of the normal Animal Summoning spells with a Spirit Wolf summon, which is nice because it works right from level 1, and grows in power with the ranger. I already have this spell set up for the F&P druids.
    Status: done!

    - Improved Called Shots for the Marksman, Archer, Slinger and Sniper. The effects will be the same (trip/pin/disarm/stun/blind) but they will be usable *at will* instead of x times per day. The trade-off is, for the 1 round they are in use, the archer will have to stand still - like a blade using Defensive Spin. I might add some more, like one that adds extra damage ('Hammer Shot').
    Status: done!

    - The Rogue Class Overhaul. This is still simmering in my mind. Right now, here's the concept.

    There will be ~5 basic thief kits:
    - Rogue
    - Assassin
    - Hunter
    - Acrobat
    - Bard

    Each will have a few differentiating innate abilities, and access to different thief skills. For example *only* Hunters will have access to Set Traps. Bards will have access to Bard Songs. Etc.

    Additionally, each kit will have the ability to select a "Rogue Feat" every 3 levels thereafter until 21st (so 7 feats total, then they get HLAs instead). The feats available will differ for each kit, but they will be a subset of this list:
    -- grease jar
    -- smoke bomb
    -- AC bonus
    -- melee thac0 bonus
    -- ranged thac0 + damage bonus
    -- melee trick: trip/disarm/blind
    -- called shot: trip/pin/stun
    -- set trap: darts/fire/electric/poison
    -- backstab multiplier bonus
    -- poison weapon
    -- stealth bonus
    -- thieving bonus
    -- detection bonus
    -- shadow pool
    -- illusion magic
    -- inspiring songs
    -- charming songs
    -- despairing songs
    -- hymnal songs
    -- music of nature
    -- thaumaturgical music

    You will be able to direct the development of your rogue as you see fit. Start with an assassin and take some backstab + poison weapon + melee thac0, and you could make vanilla-style Assassin; or take called shots + ranged thac0, and have a sniper. A Bard could take extra uses of song-based magic, or focus on combat instead. Take melee thac0 + fighting tricks, and you have a thug or pit fighter. Focus on stealth and thieving, and you can have a master thief. Focus on AC and melee tricks, and you have a Swashbuckler. The possibilities will be nearly endless.

    The flip side of this is turning the Bard class into a Psionicist. This is a huge project in and of itself - worthy of being a mod on its own - but it is inextricably tied to the RCO because this way Bards are salvaged. I'm slowly figuring out how this could work, using Bard Song to replicate psionic abilities. But it's a major amount of work, and changes this project from one major overhaul component, to two. So, don't hold your breath.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    lunar
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Here's a rough idea of how bards will work:

    A basic bard will begin with 2 uses of Inspiring Songs, 1 use of Charming Songs, and 1 use of Desparing Songs. At first, there will only be 1 song in each genre, and the songs will be pretty simple. The basic inspiration song might just protect allies from fear and give a +1 thac0 bonus. The basic charm song might make enemies drowsy, and the basic despair song might weaken enemies.

    As the bard increases in level, the power of those songs will increase. At high levels the inspiring song might induce a full-on Rage in allies, and the despairing song might Stun enemies, with a penalty to save against it.

    Additionally, at higher levels, the bard will learn more songs within each genre. A new inspirational song might make allies faster and more agile; another might make them more durable and able to resist damage. A new charming song might provide allies with a mind shield against charm magic and psionics. This will basically work like sorcerers: as they learn new effects, bards can use their casting slots to perform any known song (within each genre).

    Each song will have a duration useful for a combat encounter: something like, 5 rounds + 1 round per 4 levels of experience. The bard can do other things during this time, like engage in combat... BUT, if he takes damage, the song will be interrupted and the song's effects will cease.

    Bards can use their rogue feats to get more uses of songs they already know; or they can branch out into nature music, thaumaturgical music (basically, metamagic like Secret Word and Breach), or shadow magic or illusion magic. Or else, develop their combat skills.

  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,367
    Ohhhh
    I really like those ideas for Bards!
    I really need to get around installing all these mods to IWD:EE and do another run XD

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Neither here nor there, but I've recently perfected my IWDEE install, here is my mod install list:
    1. Minor NPC Portraits
    2. IWD NPCs
    3. Item Revisions v4 beta (first component ONLY, for now)
    4. More Style for Mages
    5. Song & Silence (just items/tweaks)
    6. Rogue Rebalancing
    7. Monastic Orders of Faerun
    8. IRv4 beta (all later components)
    9. Spell Revisions v4 beta (NOT the Dispel Fix though... and this mod requires some specific modifications to work with F&P)
    9. Frosty Journey Kitpack
    10. Divine Remix v8 (kits only, NO new spells or sphere system)
    11. BG2Tweaks
    12. Faiths & Powers beta (requires some specific modifications to work with SR)
    13. Scales of Balance v4 (wizard tweaks ONLY)
    14. Might & Guile v1.4
    15. aTweaks
    16. Full Plate and Packing Steel (modified for balance with IR and M&G)

    I have about 30 cleric kits, between FJ + DR + F&P + M&G. So I hand-edited the "K_C_H.2da" files such that there are only 10 entries for each race, but each race has a distinct list. I even enabled some of the M&G multiclass clerics for single-class use, so there are specific options for dwarves and halflings.

    I *think* that's the proper order, I'll edit the post later if it needs to be changed.

    If anyone's interested in combining these mods, PM me and I'll give you the modifications I made to make them all work together.

    ineth
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    edited November 2015
    Poop - I totally forgot about psionics! I want some low-level psionic abilities to be something rogues can learn as feats.

    For basic psionic feats, I think they should be low-power, maybe usable at will, or once every 5 rounds or something... maybe similar to the SoB wizard cantrips. Hmmmm... let's brainstorm:
    Telepathy:
    - self: mind shield
    - target: save or sleep
    - target: save or stunned
    - target: save or blinded
    - target: save or panic
    Telekinesis:
    - inertial barrier
    - energy resistance
    - gust of wind
    - battering ram
    - produce fire
    - free action
    Psychometabolism:
    - strength
    - camouflage
    - regeneration
    - haste
    Clairsentience:
    - farsight
    - trap sense
    - see invisible

    They would work like bard songs, if you get hit the effect is interrupted.

    I figure some of these could be available for rogues to learn as feats (not all though, just a few)... then the psionicist class itself would have access to more, plus they would grow in power, plus they could get special area-based powers using the old bard song mechanic.

    Hmmm..... it's a framework. When/how I actually do all this, I have no idea.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    semiticgod
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,039
    edited November 2015

    Poop - I totally forgot about psionics! I want some low-level psionic abilities to be something rogues can learn as feats.

    For basic psionic feats, I think they should be low-power, maybe usable at will, or once every 5 rounds or something... maybe similar to the SoB wizard cantrips. Hmmmm... let's brainstorm:

    Telepathic Defense:
    - self: mind shield
    Telepathic Attacks:
    - target: save or sleep
    - target: save or stunned
    - target: save or blinded
    - target: save or panic
    Telekinesis:
    - inertial barrier (damage reduction)
    - energy resistance
    - battering ram (ranged blunt damage)
    - free action
    Psychometabolism:
    - camouflage
    - regeneration
    - haste
    Clairsentience:
    - farsight
    - see invisible

    They would work like bard songs, if you get hit the effect is interrupted.

    I figure some of these could be available for rogues to learn as feats (not all though, just a few)... then the psionicist class itself would have access to more, plus they would grow in power, plus they could get special area-based powers using the old bard song mechanic.

    Hmmm..... it's a framework. When/how I actually do all this, I have no idea.

    @subtledoctor you probably are familiar with Psionics Unleashed mod, but in case you not, maybe you'll find some inspiration there.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Cahir said:

    you probably are familiar with Psionics Unleashed mod,

    I've looked at it a while ago, and I'll look at it again, but my recollection is that it is pretty different from my vision of psionics. This is a case where I will probably reinvent the wheel and build a system from scratch.

    In short: the Psionics Unleashed mod seems to use a 3E/3.5E vision of psionics, with effects roughly as powerful as magic, just with a different source. I think the mod even treats psionics as pseudo-magic and makes stuff like MR and Globes of Invulnerability block psionics.

    In this M&G vision, magic can be incredibly powerful because you are manipulating vast sources of energy. Whereas, psionics is a *skill* that anyone clever and disciplined enough can learn, and only taps the energy of your own body and brain. The effects will be much smaller; the class will be very much a utility class - which is why it will appear as part of a mod focused on rogues!

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Here is another update, to v1.5:

    https://github.com/subtledoctor/Might_and_Guile/releases/tag/1.5

    This contains the following changes:

    - Bonuses for Charisma should work now.

    - Called shots can now be used at will by the Archer, Marksman, Sniper, Slinger, and Elven Archer... but you are held in place for the round while you use them. Another called shot is added, the Hammer Shot, which adds blunt damage on a failed save by the target.

    - More goodies for Beastmasters: they can summon a Spirit Wolf (just like the Totemic Druid's) from 1st level.

    - Slight changes to light/heavy weapons in the IWO: light weapons (short sword, dagger, club, spear, quarterstaff) give an overall +1 thac0 bonus. Medium weapons (long sword, scimitar, wakizashi, axe, mace, and war hammer) give a +1 thac0 bonus to off-hand attacks only. And heavy weapons (bastard sword, katana, flail, and morning star) give a -1 *penalty* to off-hand thac0 for being unsuitable for dual-wielding.

    (I advise that you do not combine the IWO with Item Revisions' "dual-wielding changes for light/heavy weapons" component - they achieve similar goals by different means, and should probably not be stacked together.)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    edited November 2015
    I've started actually playing through IWDEE with the latest versions of my mods, and it might be worth a example of how this stuff works, so you can get a sense of the mod. Specifically, I want to highlight item changes and dual-wielding.

    With the WPO, the penalties for dual-wielding are different: instead of -4/-8, they are -5/-3 with no pips, and improve by 1 point per pip (so with full mastery at 3 pips you have a -2 penalty to main-hand thac0, and no penalty for the off-hand.

    Now add in the item changes in the IWO: heavy weapons like flails and bastard swords are hard to dual-wield with; they add a -1 penalty to off-hand thac0. If you dual-wield two heavy weapons, those penalties will stack, thus equalizing main-hand and off-hand thac0 at -5/-5. Medium weapons, on the other hand, are easier to dual-wield with; they give a +1 bonus to off-hand thaco. And light weapons confer a +1 thac0 bonus in whatever hand you use them. So with a long sword in your main hand and a dagger in your off-hand, the penalties with no DW pips would be -5/-1.

    Now a concrete example: a 1st level thief. In the vanilla game you can start with 1 pip in DW; this gives you a mainhand/off-hand thac0 adjustment of -2/-6 with whatever weapon you happen to use. With the WPO and IWO installed: with 2 bastard swords, your thac0 would be -4/-4. (I don't advise doing that.) With 2 scimitars, it would be -4/-2. With a main-hand scimitar and off-hand short sword, it would be -4/0. With two short swords, it would be -3/0. And finally, since daggers get 1.5 base apr, with 2 daggers your thac0 would be at -3/0 and 2.5 apr... at 1st level! So you can make a proper dual-wielding rogue build, right from 1st level.

    Then by 6th level you can max out DW at 3 pips, giving yourself -1/+2 to thac0 and 5/2 APR. (Yes you get a *bonus* for the off-hand weapon, which is very useful for someone on the rogue thac0 table...

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    Skatan
  • SereverusSereverus Member Posts: 70
    edited November 2015
    the IWO won't install, am i missing something here?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    edited December 2015
    Sereverus said:

    the IWO won't install, am i missing something here?

    Yeah, you're missing a mod with high-quality coding! :tongue:

    And here is one: M&G v1.5.1, with the IWO fixed.

    https://github.com/subtledoctor/Might_and_Guile/releases/tag/1.5.3

    Sorry about that! (Quick explanation: this give a -1 off-hand thac0 penalty for heavy weapons like flails, bastard swords, and katanas. I had the effect coded like this:
    ADD_ITEM_EQEFFECT INT_VAR opcode=305 parameter1=(-1) END
    ...but for some reason it needs to be like this:
    ADD_ITEM_EQEFFECT INT_VAR opcode=305 parameter1=(0 - 1) END
    Why? I don't know. But in any event it should install now. :)

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • SereverusSereverus Member Posts: 70

    Sereverus said:

    the IWO won't install, am i missing something here?

    Yeah, you're missing a mod with high-quality coding! :tongue:

    And here is one: M&G v1.5.1, with the IWO fixed.

    https://github.com/subtledoctor/Might_and_Guile/releases/tag/1.5.1

    Sorry about that! (Quick explanation: this give a -1 off-hand thac0 penalty for heavy weapons like flails, bastard swords, and katanas. I had the effect coded like this:
    ADD_ITEM_EQEFFECT INT_VAR opcode=305 parameter1=(-1) END
    ...but for some reason it needs to be like this:
    ADD_ITEM_EQEFFECT INT_VAR opcode=305 parameter1=(0 - 1) END
    Why? I don't know. But in any event it should install now. :)
    lol it would be something like that lol ^w^

  • ALIENALIEN Member Posts: 904
    edited December 2015
    LOREMASTER bard kit:
    "Through their devoted study of the past, gain a fundamental understanding of many strange magical items not normally usable by the bard class. Thus, they can use any magical item."

    This works fine I guess.

    "Loremasters' studies enhance their understanding of magic, such much that they cast spells as if they were one level higher."

    All spells which I've choose are disabled. Are loremasters suppose to have those spells?

    Post edited by ALIEN on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    @ALIEN Which spells? Which game? What's you Weidu.log look like? The Loremaster is a bard kit with 0x00004000 usability, same as the trueclass. I'm pretty sure wizard spell learning is tied to that usability flag, so the Loremaster should be able to learn spells from any school, unless the spells/scrolls themselves have been modified - in which case, the problem wouldn't be restricted to just Loremasters, but would extend to all bards.

    I just tested installing the Loremaster (only) on a clean BG2EE game, rolled a TOB character, and CLUA'd myself a bunch of random wizard spell scrolls. Here is the result:
    image


    Seems fine to me. Can you give me steps to reproduce your problem?

  • ALIENALIEN Member Posts: 904
    edited December 2015
    @subtledoctor
    Clean BG2:EE, no even voice mods:
    WeiDU

    // Log of Currently Installed WeiDU Mods
    // The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod
    // ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // [Subcomponent Name -> ] Component Name [ : Version]
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #100 // IWO: Item & Weapon Overhaul: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #120 // WPO: Weapon Proficiency Overhaul: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #160 // STO: Saving Throw Overhaul: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #200 // Revised Stat Bonuses: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #205 // Revised Hit Point Tables: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #210 // Revised XP Tables: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #215 // Revised Spellcasting Tables: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #220 // Revised Movement Bonuses (Quickstride): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #250 // Revised Berserker and Rage: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #255 // Revised Rangers: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #260 // Revised Kensai: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #265 // Revised Monk Fists: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #270 // Revised Bards: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #275 // Revised Shadowdancer: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #310 // Add the Corsair (fighter kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #320 // Add the Marksman (fighter kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #322 // Add the Elven Archer (ranger kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #324 // Add the Halfling Slinger (ranger or fighter kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #350 // Add the Mage Hunter (ranger kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #360 // Add the Barbarian Ranger (ranger kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #410 // Add the Sniper (thief kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #420 // Add the Scout (thief kit) and revise the Swashbuckler: v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #450 // Add the Jongleur (bard kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #460 // Add the Loremaster (bard kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #470 // Add the Gallant (bard kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #480 // Add the Meistersinger (bard kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #490 // Add the Loresinger (bard kit): v1.5
    ~MIGHT_AND_GUILE/MIGHT_AND_GUILE.TP2~ #0 #500 // Add Multiclass Kits: v1.5

    Creating character an choosing spell: http://prntscr.com/9943m1
    Start of the ToB (wrong string reference for polish) http://prntscr.com/9944fm
    Spellbook: http://prntscr.com/9946kf

    Still, caont use spells after rest: http://prntscr.com/9946v8

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Oh - you can't cast spells from the gameplay screen! Sorry, I didn't understand what the problem is.

    Is it only the Loremaster?

    That looks like it's been hit with an opcode 145 effect ("disable spellcasting: wizard"). Perhaps something is screwed up in one of the CLAB spells. I'll take a look tonight when I have my computer handy.

    Or if you want to investigate more, you can look at the Loremaster's CLAB and see what spells are being applied. Should be d5_mglv1.spl, and d5_lorm1.spl, maybe a couple more. Should be a casting level increase, a GA_ for a Find Traps ability, a UAI effect, and (at various levels) some extra wizard spells. None of those should use opcode 145, if you see it just delete that effect.

    I'm running a Loremaster through IWDEE right now, but I haven't gotten to Kuldahar yet so I haven't seen this bug yet. Should be easy to fix, though.

  • ALIENALIEN Member Posts: 904
    Well, It was only a test, I might do some more but I don't know what is CLAB and have little to none IE klownege. If I/my version of the game could be userfull for debugging, please explain what I have to do.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Do you use Near Infinity? If you look at NI at the 2DA category, click D5_LOREM.2DA and you will see a bunch of spell names preceded by "GA_" and "AP_"

    Open the SPL category, and look for those spells. Each will have one or more "abilities" and each ability will have one or more "effects." If you see an effect that is "Disable Spellcasting (145)" then hit the "remove" button for that effect and then hit "save" for the spell.

    Or, wait til tonight and I'll upload a fixed version.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    edited December 2015
    ANOTHER IDEA:

    This one is minor, but perhaps significant. In the WPO, many weapon categories are combined, so taking points in one proficiency will give you double the choices of what you can wield. Especially if combined with the BG2Tweaks "2-handed Bastard Swords" component:
    - Greatsword prof: use 2-hand swords or bastard swords
    - Longsword prof: use long swords or bastard swords
    - Curved Sword prof: use scimitars or katanas
    - Polearm prof: use spears or halberds
    - Maces prof: use maces or morning stars
    - Knives prof: use daggers or darts
    - Bows prof: use longbows or short bows

    Let's see who's left out in the cold.

    Slings and crossbows: distinct weapons with plenty of powerful ones in the game. I'm not worried about these.

    Axes and flails: Again, these are distinct enough that they don't lend themselves to combination with other weapons, and there are tons of great magical axes and flails in the games.

    Short swords: short swords feel lonely in this system. Combining them with daggers might be too much (and would darts be included, or go off to join slings?); I would lean the other way, combining short swords and long swords in a "light swords" category. This would envision long swords as encompassing the spectrum from long swords to rapiers (and maybe drop their damage to 1d6+1), and shift bastard swords to encompass broad swords to bastard swords (doing 1d8+1 dmg). But this might not be worth doing.

    Clubs: clubs are totally pathetic. They'd not even well-represented with magical versions in the games. Who would invest in clubs? So here's my radical proposal: combine clubs and staffs into a single proficiency. They're both simple, low-damage weapons, both generally made from a stout piece of wood and maybe reinforced... they kind of go perfectly together. And anyone investing points in this proficiency would be uniquely versatile, able to use their proficiency with any of the 4 fighting styles.

    What do you think?

  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,719
    I would lump clubs in with maces. The movements for using a short, one-handed blunt weapon are completely different from using a two-handed long weapon. Quarterstaves actually have more in common with spears than clubs, the jab to the chest is a standard move for both.

    I might also add one-handed axes in with clubs and maces, the fighting style is quite similar.

    I wouldn't put flails with anything else, controlling the head(s) has got to be a special skill all its own.

    I do like clubs in BG1, Jaheira comes with the proficiency, and you can get a +2 club pretty early.

    semiticgodPantalion
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    Yeah but clubs + maces + morning stars = 3 options to use the proficiency, where every other prof gets 1 or 2. And axes would make 4. It's just too unbalanced.

    Btw @ALIEN it looks like a false alarm for the Loremaster spellcasting - I tried a Meistersinger and it had the same issue. Then I tried a Skald and it had the same issue, and I started freaking out thinking my mod messed up the game. Then I *uninstalled* my mod and tried a Skald... and it had the same issue. I think that first area of TOB is just a dead magic zone. :tongue:

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,585
    edited December 2015
    BillyYank said:

    I would lump clubs in with maces. The movements for using a short, one-handed blunt weapon are completely different from using a two-handed long weapon. Quarterstaves actually have more in common with spears than clubs, the jab to the chest is a standard move for both.

    *snip*

    Agree to this. I guess it depends on whether you want it 'realistic' or just more balanced @subtledoctor. I've always said the same as @billyYank, swinging a mace and swinging a club is exactly the same, though the mace may weigh a bit more but that's already taken care of with STR req's. I like staff maces but I think it's kinda ridiculous that it's in staff prof category instead of club/mace category, since the movement pattern for them are so different.

    Btw, you forgot about warhammers. A warhammer has a very heavy head and may be similar to an axe in how you handle it (this is a stretch, I know). So you might want to stick warhammers and axes in a combined prof category.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,189
    I actually think clubs are rather dissimilar to maces. When I think of clubs in this game, a thief weapon that can backstab and only does 1d4 damage, I think it's something more like a baton or truncheon. If it was shaped and weighted like a mace, then it should do the same damage as a mace, and maces should be usable by thieves and should do backstab damage.

    So a club is more of a straight rod, then a quarterstaff is basically just a 2-handed club. This is a nice retcon rationalization for why both clubs and staffs can be used by thieves and can backstab.

    Stepping back for a second, I don't see why the concept of proficiencies must be tied to a single arm motion or even a single overall skill. We could just say "proficiency with light bludgeons" and it could cover skill fighting with a club, as well as a separate skill fighting with a staff. Just like how proficiency with daggers covers both handheld dirks/daggers and throwing knives.

    Functionally downside to combining clubs and staffs is that it takes away a place for Druids and Beastmasters to put points. And this component also give all classes more points to spend, and the game still has the problem where if you have points to spend and nowhere to spend them, you get stuck forever at the level-up screen. :(

    Balance-wise, I think this could work nicely (maybe with some text changes in the club item description). But I'd have to crunch some numbers. And maybe revisit how to handle short swords, axes, and hammers. Now I'm kind of yearning for a bigger revamp, giving 2 weapons to each proficiency:

    - heavy swords = 2-hand sword + bastard sword
    - light swords = long sword + shorts sword
    - curved swords = scimitar + katana/wakizashi
    - knives = daggers + darts
    - polearms = spear + halberd
    - heavy bludgeons = mace + morning star
    - light bludgeons = club + quarterstaff
    - chopping weapons = axe + hammer
    - flails = flails :(
    - bows = long bows + short bows
    - crossbows = crossbows
    - slings = slings

    In this system Beastmasters could reach 4 pips in knives, chopping weapons, polearms, light bludgeons, bows, and slings. That's 24 pips to spend... add 3 for styles (1 to finish dual-wielding, and 2 to specialize in another style) and it's 27. I think they start with 6 and they get 1 per 3 levels, so it would take then til level 60 to max out. Good!

    Druids can reach 3 pips in 6 proficiencies plus 2 pips in 2 styles, for 22 to spend. They start with 5 and gain 1 every 4 levels... so they would max out at level 68. Good!

    Thieves can reach 3 pips in 7 proficiencies, plus 5 in styles, for 26 total. They start with 6 and gain 1 every 3 levels, so they would max out at level 60. Good!

    Clerics can reach 2 pips in 9 proficiencies, plus 1 in 3 styles, for 21 total. They start with 6 and gain 1 every 4 levels, so they would max out at level 64. Good!

    Hmm, how about kensai? They can use heavy swords, light swords, curved swords, knives, polearms, light bludgeons, heavy bludgeons, and flails. F you use my revised kensai they can reach 5 in one group, 2 in all the others. Plus 7 for SWS, 2HS, and DW. That's 26 pips to spend. They start with 8, and get another every 2 levels... at that rate they'll spend 26 pips by level 35. Uh-oh! Maybe add an HLA opening up all weapons for GM...

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