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[MOD] -Might and Guile- a tweak mod and kit pack for warriors and rogues.

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Comments

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,252

    Throw out some ideas, and I'll see if I can do it.

    looking at the pnp table, i got an idea (table: http://www.gibberlings3.net/readmes/readme-bg2tweaks_tables.html#mage)

    intelligence can determine after which level your spell progression stops *but also* which lower spell levels are excepted (from progression cap)

    so for example: with intelligence 17 your spell progression would halt at lvl19, but levels1-6 would be uncapped (which means you're stuck with a single lvl9 slot for the rest of the game, but can cast lots of lvl6 spells)

    with intelligence 9, your spell progression would halt past lvl8, but lvls1-2 would be uncapped

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited November 2015
    Wow, lots of good ideas! Good stuff to discuss. I guess it makes sense to clarify the goals here:

    1) Even out the difference in importance of different stats. Create more opportunity for players to make strategic trade-offs, and thus more variability and fun in different playthroughs.

    2) Make all stat bonuses new and interesting and cool.

    I think for now I have to focus on 1), mostly just because RL is kicking my ass and I don't have much time to put into modding.

    That said let's talk about specifics. I have very little desire to add bonuses to STR, because it's already the most important stat. The fact that the go-to race for thief builds is a 19-STR half-orc instead of a 19-DEX halfling is a crime against this game system. (And don't get me started on how half-orcs getting 19 STR is actually completely illegal in AD&D.)

    The same is basically true of DEX and CON. The mechanical benefits affect everyone and are already valued very highly by players. I revise these bonuses (better bonuses for scores between 13 and 16) but I don't think I need to add more benefits.

    What needs help are the traditional "dump stats," INT, WIS, and CHA. I want to keep save and luck bonuses for CHA, because I'll re-fashion Charisma as something like Karma, instead of just how attractive you are. @BillyYank I hear you about sorcerers, since that is an official 3E thing... but why wouldn't every single sorcerer just have 18 CHA and dump everything else? How does that create strategic trade-offs for the player? (The real problem here is that sorcerers are a broken class from another game system shoehorned into this one.) Sorcerers certainly don't need extra spells. Maybe caster level bonuses?

    I've proposed a bonus for wizards with high INT, but it would be nice to have some benefits for other classes as well. Extra proficiencies would be ideal, but unfortunately it's not possible. Hmmm...

    WIS is already great for priests but here too it would be nice to add some benefit for non-spellcasters. (Casting speed is interesting and justifiable, but like Luck, a little goes a long way and there's no real way to spread bonuses from scores of 13 to 18.)

    Permanent party-wide bonuses could be very interesting, but it's hard to make it work well. I don't think I have the time to wade into those waters :(

    JuliusBorisov
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,252
    intelligence could somehow affect critical hits - you're smarter so you can spot your enemies' vulnerabilities better

    you could split enemies into tiers: easy to crit (tier1 - for example goblins), average (tier2 - trolls), hard to crit (tier3 - golems) and currently crit immune enemies (tier4)

    int=9: can only crit tier1 enemies
    int=12: can crit tier2
    int=15: can crit tier3
    int=16: bonus for tier1
    int=17: bonus for tier2
    int=18: bonus for tier3
    int=19: can crit tier4

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,512
    I very much doubt we'd have incremental luck or casting speed bonuses. Maybe +1 for a score of 16 or 17 or 18.

    @bob_veng: I don't think it's possible to do that specific thing in the IE games, but the idea makes sense. A slight boost to critical hit chance would be a good substitute. Or, a bonus to hit and damage against the enemy types you describe.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited November 2015
    It could be done, but it would be a truly massive amount of work. Not worth it IMO.

    Increased crit chance is interesting. But again it could get too high too fast. Especially combined with weapons styles, since my WPO component doubles the crit chance bonus for SWS. Ordinarily I like to have some bonus every level instead of every two levels, but since this is a secondary bonus the latter might be okay. So maybe:
    INT:   CRIT:     SPELLS:
    13 - bonus 1st level
    14 - bonus 2nd level
    15 +5% bonus 3rd level
    16 - bonus 4th level
    17 +5% bonus 5th level
    18 - bonus 6th level
    19 +5% bonus 7th level
    20 - bonus 8th level
    21 - bonus 9th level
    I would probably pair this with a -5% crit chance penalty across the board, applied to everyone. So no crits, ever, unless you're smart enough to find opponents' weak points or you have training in Single-Weapon Style or Two-Handed Style. But if you're very smart and have pips in those styles, you can crit on rolls of 17 or higher.

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,512
    @subtledoctor: Please tell me those bonuses won't apply to Mind Flayers.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited November 2015
    Ha ha... well, for now they're just going in CLAB files. Non-joinable .CREs will be untouched. I'm not changing how the game plays, just changing how you can specialize your character. Maybe in a future update I'll code these changes to every .CRE in the game as well though. (Mind Flayers wouldn't be *that* bad though... they would crit on rolls of 18 or higher. 15% of the time. If you're in melee against mind flayers, you should really be able to kill them before that makes much of a difference.)

    IN THE MEANTIME...

    I've got this coded up and ready for release. Here is v1.4:

    https://github.com/subtledoctor/Might_and_Guile/releases/tag/1.4

    Changes for this version:
    - Fixed item usability for Marksmen and Barbarian Rangers.
    - Barbarians' and Berserkers' revised Rage abilities are no longer the same. Barbs get bonuses to STR and CON, while Zerks get +.5 APR. Both protect only from Charm, Sleep, Hold, and Stun.
    - In the Item & Weapon Overhaul, light weapons now have a +1 thac0 bonus. They include short swords, daggers, war hammers, maces, clubs, spears, and quarterstaves.
    - Fixed the Revised Shadowdancer component, it now installs in IWDEE.
    - Divine casters (rangers and multiclass cleric kits) are compatible with the Faiths & Powers sphere system.
    - New in the Revised Stat Bonuses component: INT now gives bonus spells to bards and mages, and higher chance to score critical hits in combat. CHA now gives saving throw bonuses and, at 18+, Luck bonuses.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    semiticgod
  • PetrolPetrol Member Posts: 34
    Hello subtledoctor,

    I gave a try to your mod in icewind dale ee, much to say about it.
    Playing races party with themes linked to their race and level 1 HOF.

    - Pros :
    The quickstride for babrbarian, monks and ranger, il really love it, now i love playing monks.

    The kensai kit is awesome, like you say : it shines.

    You split the ranger archer kit and removed from the overhaul becoming stand alone kits, a great idea.

    - Cons :
    I wonder why you hate the berzerker, the new rage (version 1.4) is good, but why *** in weapon and * in fighting style ? It's nerfing too much the kit, you killed the berzerker !

    The blade is nerfed too, the offensive spin is not ridiculous : self haste without the fatigue. Also your blade cannot spec in some weapons. I prefer the vanilla blade.

    The halflings now can be ranger, but halas cannot use divine spells

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited November 2015
    Thanks for the feedback! I appreciate all praise and criticism. As for some of your critiques: I have justifications for all of those things,
    1) I don't hate zerks, I just hate the way Bioware mangled the kit. I don't think it makes sense that "berserkers" have the patience and discipline to achieve the same level of mastery as a professional soldier or a kensai. And giving an APR bonus in Rage means that zerks get the primary benefit of GM at first level, for all weapons. So it's hardly a nerf.

    2) I just made the Blade a lot closer to PnP, where the "spin" ability is used to intimidate enemies, not simulate "Kai plus Haste." Again, Bioware's kit is totally out of left field. So yeah, this *is* a nerf. :wink: BUT I don't get the comment about the Blade getting spec in only some weapons (...bladed ones) since the vanilla Blade cannot specialize in any weapons.

    3) Halflings cannot be rangers under the game rules, and they are not supposed to use any magic, unless they are a specialty priest of Yondalla or Arvoreen or something. I change one of those to give players more options... but I don't think I need to change both. (I toyed with the idea of opening the ranger class and closing the fighter class to halflings - the idea is, every halfling warrior should be able to use stealth - but people thought that was too extreme.)

    But, not all of this mod is for every player. The nice thing about how I've changed it from the old version is that you can pick and choose which components you like, and you don't have to use the ones you don't like. I don't judge, I fully expect that people will disagree with some of my changes. :)

  • PetrolPetrol Member Posts: 34
    edited November 2015
    I understand, i gave a try, and love your mod, and kits.
    Is the version 1.4 removes the stat penalities for the multiclass kits ?

    The zerk is a fighter, ok for the *** for weapon, but i think only one * in fighting style is too less.

    A fighter with no kit :
    he can have ***** weapon and *** in two weapons fighting style.
    Grand mastery damage +5, -3 speed factor, permanent 3,5 apr (4.5 at level 13), -2 malus for the 2nd weapon

    Your zerk :
    *** weapon and * in two weapons fighting style
    mastery damage +3, 0 speed factor, he has 2.5 apr (3.5 at level 13), 3.5 apr with rage, and -4 malus for the 2nd weapon

    The no kit fighter is better just because it's permanent, he doesn't have to rage to gain benefits.

    When a kit a inferior to a no kit, i can say it's a big nerf.

    Compare with my favorite kit, the corsair :
    - flaws : GM only for light bladed weapons and wear only light armor
    - benefit : swashbucking

    It's a balanced kit

    The vanilla zerk is too overpowered, a fighter with no flaws only gains.
    Your zerk has only flaws, the new rage doesn't counterbalance it.

    For the blade, you removed the offensive spin, ok why not, but the blade dance is a chant, so the blade cannot use it while fighting.
    It's a sort of skald chant, but the vanilla skald is not designed to fight, he's a support bard, the blade is made for fighting, the new chant is pointless.

    Post edited by Petrol on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited November 2015
    Trueclass fighter maxes at 3apr main-hand with GM at level 13. Revised Zerk gets 2.5apr main-hand, + 0.5 when berserking (so 3apr total, same as a fighter). And it works for every weapon, and they can spread their prof points over more weapons since they only need to use 3 pips per weapon instead of 5 pips per weapon, and the extra apr is accompanied by a thac0 bonus and immunity to charm, sleep, hold, and stun...

    Yeah the fighter is better in some circumstances but that's the goal: one kit should be better in some ways and the other should be better in other ways. GM is the fighter's 'special ability' - it should be a bit more rare and special than it is in the vanilla game.

    I'll grant you this, a berserker charging at you with 2 axes makes sense, so I'll up their style limits. Maybe let them max out 2-Hand Weapon Style and Dual-Wielding, but not S&S (too defensive for zerks) or SWS (which is all about finesse).

    For the Blade, it's just based on PnP. Yeah the Weapon Display is coded as a bard song... now the Blade has an interesting bard song! Surely it's better than the Blade's vanilla bard song, no?

    Sticking by the PnP description, since the what the Blade needs now is... a Poison Weapon ability. After all the Bard's handbook presents the kit as a sort of bardic assassin, and specifically talks about using poison. Maybe I'll add that.

    That component does require that you rethink a bit what the Blade kit really is. To be crystal clear: Bioware got this kit wrong, and I'm undoing their mistake. If you're really into Bioware's version of the kit - great at melee and with an offensive spin ability and some spellcasting on the side - well, that isn't so much a Blade bard, as it is a Bladesinger.

    Luckily, the mod has a Bladesinger! :)

    Vallmyr
  • PetrolPetrol Member Posts: 34
    Ok i agree for the blade.

    The bladesinger is limited to elf, my half elf party cannot recruit him . I keep the vanilla bard blade.

    What i'm trying to say is that your zerk is weakier than the vanilla one, no one will play it.
    Even un unkitted fighter is less better.

    fighter : 1 + 1 from level 13 + 1.5 from GM = 3.5 apr
    Revisited zerk : 1 + 1 from level 13 + 0.5 from spec + 0.5 from rage = 3 apr

    (rules of enhanced edition)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Wait. Warriors get:
    1 apr,
    + .5 at level 7
    + .5 at level 13,
    + .5 for specialization,
    + .5 for grandmastery,
    = 3 apr.

    I very specifically coded Zerks, when raging, to be the equal of a fighter with GM.

  • PetrolPetrol Member Posts: 34
    edited November 2015
    No the enhanced edition rules are 1.5 from grand mastery.

    Take a test, you will see.

    You can see this link too (at the bottom)
    http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Proficiency_Benefits

    I didn't mention the Thac0, but your zerk gains +2 max with *** and a GM fighter gains +3

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited November 2015
    I get the apr calculation from here:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/41543/original-bg2-vs-ee-grand-mastery-and-why-it-matters

    @Dee and @elminster seem to confirm there that EE gives +1 *total* for GM - i.e. +.5 for Spec and another +.5 for GM. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (and please, please tell me the EEs have not adopted the horrible so-called "True Grandmastery" mod that Weimer put out back in ~2002!)

    As for thac0, isn't there a +2 bonus when raging? That puts Zerks at +4, versus +3 for fighters.

    The overall idea is, Zerks should be slightly stronger than fighters when berserking, but slightly weaker when not enraged. Vanilla berserkers are just as effective as fighters even when not berserking, which IMHO is stupid.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,941
    edited November 2015
    @subtledoctor just a heads up @Petrol looks like they said they were talking about IWDEE (or as they put it "icewind dale ee"). So if that is the case then they would be correct (which wouldn't be a change from how the original Icewind Dale handled grandmastery).

    Edit: And what I mean by my statement is that Icewind Dale Enhanced Edition works differently than the BG series in terms of what amount of APR is granted when you hit grandmastery.

    BGEE/BG2EE: Grandmastery gives +1 over being proficient.
    IWDEE: Grandmastery gives +1.5 over being proficient.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited November 2015
    What?? I didn't realize there was a difference. Well, I figure coding for the BG games is a priority. I'm not about to give Zerks a whole extra attack right from level 1. It's gonna be hard to balance for IWDEE but if I think of something I'll add a variant Rage for that game and put out a v1.4.1.

    Frankly this is all the more reason to use my Weapon Proficiency Overhaul - not only a better ruleset, but also a *consistent* ruleset! :tongue:

    (Just, @elminster, please fix BG2EE in the next patch so that PROFSMAX.2DA is functional, like it is in BGEE and IWDEE! That bug destroys any ability to mod proficiencies in BG2EE - and thus also EET. It is super super annoying!)

    Ardul
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,941
    I really don't make any decisions about when bugs get fixed. I just write the tickets :)

    subtledoctor
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Okay @Petrol and others: here is v1.4.1, which allows Berserkers to invest 2 pips in 2-Handed Weapon Style and 3 pips in dual-wielding... but *none* in Sword-and-Shield Style or Single-Weapon Style.

    https://github.com/subtledoctor/Might_and_Guile/releases/tag/1.4.1

    I'm also trying something new with weapons styles. First, cosmetic changes:
    - "Two-Handed Weapon Style" is renamed to "Cleaving"
    - "Sword & Shield Style" is renamed to "Phalanx" (I'm up for suggestions for something better)
    - "Single-Weapon Style" is renamed to "Finesse"
    - Two-Weapon Style" is renamed to "Dual-Wielding"

    Additionally in the WPO, all styles now include thac0 bonuses for investing points into them. Additionally, I've reversed the main-hand/off-hand penalties for dual-wielding; the idea now is, using a weapon in your off-hand impairs your main-hand accuracy... but you are more likely to score a hit with the off-hand weapon since your opponent has a tough time keeping track of it and defending against it. Here are the new bonuses:

    "Finesse"
    – * = +1 thac0, -1 AC, +5% crit chance when using a single-handed weapon
    – ** = +2 thac0, -2 AC, +10% crit chance

    "Phalanx"
    – * = +1 thac0, -1 AC when using a shield
    – ** = +2 thac0, -2 AC, +5% crit chance

    "Cleaving"
    – * = +1 thac0, +2 damage with two-handed weapons
    – ** = +2 thac0, +4 damage

    "Dual-Wielding"
    – - = -5 main-hand thac0, and -3 off-hand thac0
    – * = -4 main-hand thac0, and -2 off-hand thac0
    – ** = -3 main-hand thac0, and -1 off-hand thac0
    – *** = -2 main-hand thac0, and no penalty to off-hand thac0

    The changes to dual-wielding can have interesting interactions with the IWO's bonuses for light weapons. Dual-wield two daggers improves your thac0 by 2 points - which, if you are fully trained in dual-wielding, will result in a net bonus for your off-hand weapon (you're more like to score an opportunistic attack with your off-hand). I think this is still balanced because 1) those weapons do less damage, and 2) the hand with that thac0 bonus does not benefit from APR increases.

  • PetrolPetrol Member Posts: 34
    My vision of the zerk : he's a mad fighter.
    *** in weapon why not, but not all, a zerk with dagger, club, sling or a short sword ?! I think you can remove these weapons. Also Halberd, spear ?

    A zerk loves axes, longswords, maces, 2H sword, maybe quaterstaff and flail/morgenstein.

    The rage must make him unique and better than an un-kitted fighter.

    As you can see, ALL Enhanced Edition games gives +1.5 apr from Grand Mastery.
    You don't have these games ?

    Your rage is underpowered, with it the zerk has 3 apr, the fighter has permanent 3.5 apr.

    - Give it something more, like maxing damage

    - Or you could give the zerk a +1 to rolls beginning at level 1 and increasind each 6 level.

    - Or give him a permanent 0.5 apr bonus at creation.

    I prefer +1 rolls.

    I also think the zerk would not wear a plate mail, with 2 weapons it's not logical.

    Take a comparison : in frosty journey you have the kit myrmidon, it's a upgrade of the fighter, balanced kit, and i think a player can chose this one over the vanilla zerk.


    A demand : can you open the bladesinger to half elf ?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Petrol said:


    As you can see, ALL Enhanced Edition games gives +1.5 apr from Grand Mastery.
    You don't have these games ?

    I do. As elminster just confirmed, fighters getting 3.5 base apr with GM only happens in IWDEE - not in BGEE it BG2EE (or TOB or Tutu or BGT). In addition to being a competent modder and Beamdog employee and all-around swell guy, he is very knowledgeable about these games.

    Eh, my berserker is substantially more powerful than a vanilla fighter at low levels (33% more attacks and much better thac0, right at level 1) and can become a master of more weapons, and so is much more versatile in which weapons can benefit from his combat bonuses.

    The fighter, if he obtains a substantial amount of experience and invests a ton of training into a single weapon, that diligence eventually pays off with being superior with that one weapon. Long-term training, versus short-term Rage.

    That seems perfectly reasonable to me. If it's not your cup of tea I understand. Like I say, lots of players will not use that component.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,574
    I really need to get my comp up and running again so I can dl these mods! Wow, @subtledoctor, I'm very impressed in what you are aiming for. It correlate alot with ideas I have though about and adds a ton more I would never have imagined.

    A couple of incoherent comments below, since I just now found this thread.

    Since I haven't tried it yet, and since you have already moved on from the discussion about stat bonuses, this may be too late, but:
    *CHA could perhaps add to or enhance the effect of bard songs,
    *WIS, since it in some ways include perception, could be the base for increased crit dmg. This would make WIS a good stat for fighters not to dump. I don't think INT should do this and since DEX is already a great stat, it would be too great of a gain to max DEX for the benefits if it were both crit and AC/THAC0 boosts.

    Overall I like the idea of having each stat add bonuses to different saves, like someone above wrote (forgot who). It's very 3E-esque.

    I just thought of something, probably completely crazy though. Can the favoured enemy tab be used for adding something like "talents" to non-ranger classes? Perhaps one could use the favoured enemy tab on other classes but with other bonuses. Like a bard getting increased chance to charm/confuse enemies etc or a cleric getting specific deity bonuses. I'm guessing the favoured enemies tab is prolly hardcoded and can't be altered since I have never read about mods using that for adding new things.

    Personally I love the blade for its flavour and hybrid ways, even though it's kinda 'broken'. The difference between a bladesinger and a blade is that a blade is a 'rogue' and not a buffed fighter. Which bard kit is the most similar to the old blade?
    I like what you have done to barb/berzerker. It fits my view on it as well.

    I'm not a fan of the new terms for fighting styles though. No offense, but 'phalanx' was a distinctive style for fighting in formation and cannot really be applied to a single fighter (and ofc it was shield/spear, but nevermind that). Fighting with twohanded swords was probably alot more than just cleaving. There are many military theorists, practitioners and reenactors who has concluded that often the twohanded sword was used for "half-swording" when in close melee, so you didn't really always 'cleave'. Also it fails to apply to spears who are mainly used for thrusting. Finesse is the best one of the new names IMHO, but I have doubts there as well since fighting with a weapon onehanded can be just as aggressive as weilding one in two hands (which is why I would like it to add APR, but I know it can't be done).
    So, with that said I actually think the original names are better, except for "dual weilding" which I like. Sword and shield could be named just "shield style" or "shield and weapon style". It was very common to fight very offensively using a shield, so calling it something like "defensive style" would be incorrect as well. Sorry for the rant, I really hope you take this as constructive critiscm and nothing else since I am at awe at what you have accomplished with your mods!

    Since I haven't tried your mod(s) yet but read that the bards get new songs and no more arcane spells, I wonder, do their songs work as usual? Meaning it limits them from doing anything else but sing to get the effect. If they no longer have arcane spells I would have prefered to have their songs have casting time, just as regular spells, and a duration, again just a regular spells, but just not be based from a spellbook. This means bards could still be used as "fighter/mages", meaning they could sing ("cast a spell") then ´still be able to attack for the rest of the round. If you find this OP, then their casting time could be increased but also the duration of the spells so that some songs could be used as buffs pre-fight, others mid-fight, and some after fights while still enabling the bard to contribute actively in the actual fighting. Personally, I find skalds and vanilla bards the least interresting since they just stand there singing most of the times.

    Alot of rambling thoughts. I'm at work as usual, so I haven't really taken the time to re-read what I've written and correct it.

    Thanks for all your great work. Looking forward to trying this mod! (finally done with renovating my apartment, so I can prolly setup my comp within a week :smiley: )



  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited November 2015
    ATTENTION: it appears that the new CHA and INT bonuses in the Stat Revisions component may cause glitches. I advise against using v1.4.1 until I fix the scripts involved. I may need some help from people experienced in this kind of thing... @wolpak? @Grammarsalad? :)

    Instead here is v1.4.2 with the old, very minor stat revisions:
    https://github.com/subtledoctor/Might_and_Guile/releases/tag/1.4.2

    ---

    @Skatan Okay, a lot to answer here. :)
    Skatan said:

    *CHA could perhaps add to or enhance the effect of bard songs,

    That is GENIUS. But may be tricky to implement. I need to think about how to do it.
    Skatan said:

    Overall I like the idea of having each stat add bonuses to different saves, like someone above wrote (forgot who). It's very 3E-esque.

    It is indeed 3E-esque, because in 3E saves were sort of aligned with abilities. In stock 2E it doesn't work as well. My Saving Throw Overhaul goes in that direction, but I don't want to make this component dependent on that one. The big reason not to do this is because it would gut my new CHA bonuses, and add bonuses to several stats that are already very valuable like DEX and CON.
    Skatan said:

    I just thought of something, probably completely crazy though. Can the favoured enemy tab be used for adding something like "talents" to non-ranger classes?

    I love your thinking... actually I really really love it. Not exactly non-weapon proficiencies, more like Fallout's "traits" - one-time choices that distinguish the character's focus. If I could do this, I would probably restrict it to Rogues. Maybe even fold it into my Rogue Class Overhaul.

    But, unfortunately, my understanding is that the ranger 'favored enemy' menu is super-hard-coded and beyond my reach as a modder. :(
    Skatan said:

    Personally I love the blade for its flavour and hybrid ways, even though it's kinda 'broken'. The difference between a bladesinger and a blade is that a blade is a 'rogue' and not a buffed fighter. Which bard kit is the most similar to the old blade?

    Fighter/mage. :tongue:

    The new Blade is still closest to the old Blade. It just doesn't have Offensive Spin. In exchange it gets specialization with bladed weapons, which means higher APR if you use the WPO component or my other mod, APR on Spec:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/36197/mod-release-apr-on-spec#latest

    Also the new Blade's bard song is FAR more powerful: thac0/AC penalties that enemies can't save against, and possibly causing fear. It's like Chant + Horror on demand.

    Alternatively, the revised Skald may be what you're looking for. It gets almost as good thac0 as a fighter, and possibly weapon specialization as well (honestly I forget). Their song is great but now they can fight OR sing, and be good at both. I'm actually considering giving Skalds a Rage ability as well. The trade-off is, less spellcasting.
    Skatan said:

    I'm not a fan of the new terms for fighting styles though. No offense, ...
    I really hope you take this as constructive critiscm and nothing else since I am at awe at what you have accomplished with your mods!

    No offense taken! I totally understand. Those terms spring from thinking about how I started out giving thac0 bonuses to SWS, and how that's probably the closest you'll ever get to the Finesse feat in this game. And it suddenly hit me: why not call it "finesse?" But then I needed new names for the other styles and... let's say I compromised a bit. "Phalanx" is definitely the worst. :) I also considered "Turtling " but that sounds terrible as well.

    Basically I think the vanilla style names are terrible (especially the near-identical "two-weapon style" and "two-handed weapon style") and need something slightly better. Maybe change "phalanx" to "shield-fighting" ...? And for 2-handed weapons I'm not sure... but I'm definitely open to suggestions!
    Skatan said:

    bards get new songs and no more arcane spells, I wonder, do their songs work as usual? Meaning it limits them from doing anything else but sing to get the effect. If they no longer have arcane spells I would have prefered to have their songs have casting time, just as regular spells, and a duration, again just a regular spells, but just not be based from a spellbook. This means bards could still be used as "fighter/mages", meaning they could sing ("cast a spell") then still be able to attack for the rest of the round.

    I think you're referring to the Rogue Class Overhaul, which unfortunately is not yet part of the mod. It's still a concept in my head. But the concept is exactly as you say: no bard songs as they currently exist, instead 'bards' will have music-based innate abilities that work like normal spells. So you could 'sing' a buffing song that has a duration of, say, 5 or 10 rounds, and then jump into combat during that time. I might try to get clever and code it such that if the bard gets struck by an enemy, it cancels the 'song.' We'll see.

    But unfortunately that component is still just a twinkle in my eye, and RL being what it is, I don't see getting it done before mid-2016. :(

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,574


    Skatan said:

    I just thought of something, probably completely crazy though. Can the favoured enemy tab be used for adding something like "talents" to non-ranger classes?

    I love your thinking... actually I really really love it. Not exactly non-weapon proficiencies, more like Fallout's "traits" - one-time choices that distinguish the character's focus. If I could do this, I would probably restrict it to Rogues. Maybe even fold it into my Rogue Class Overhaul.

    But, unfortunately, my understanding is that the ranger 'favored enemy' menu is super-hard-coded and beyond my reach as a modder. :(

    Yeah, that was what I imagined, that it prolly can't be done. IF it can somehow be done though, it could in theory be used to reduce the number of kits and instead add 'traits' that you pick to tailor your charname. Examples would be to pick increased backstab multiplier or stronger poison if you want to be an assassin, or special traps if you want to be a bounty hunter rogue. Or you could pick AC bonus and/or THAC0 bonuses if you want to be a swashbuckler etc. Sorta lika mini-HLA's. One can dream, hehe :)


    I think you're referring to the Rogue Class Overhaul, which unfortunately is not yet part of the mod. It's still a concept in my head. But the concept is exactly as you say: no bard songs as they currently exist, instead 'bards' will have music-based innate abilities that work like normal spells. So you could 'sing' a buffing song that has a duration of, say, 5 or 10 rounds, and then jump into combat during that time. I might try to get clever and code it such that if the bard gets struck by an enemy, it cancels the 'song.' We'll see.

    But unfortunately that component is still just a twinkle in my eye, and RL being what it is, I don't see getting it done before mid-2016. :(

    Aha, read the entire thread in one go, so must have misread that part. Didn't realize that was WIP. May become easier and/or unecessary with the 'bard hat' in SoD though.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Skatan said:

    May become easier and/or unecessary with the 'bard hat' in SoD though.

    Hmm?? What's this now?

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,252
    edited November 2015
    it's a hat that makes the bard song linger for a couple of rounds, during which the bard can do other stuff

    edit: i think it will give you "lingering song" from here: http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/rr_core.html#Bard_High_Level_Ability_revisions

    Skatan
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Ah! Hmm, I always thought lingering song was a vanilla HLA. Shows that I haven't played without RR in like 10 years! Heh, mods rool. :tongue:

    Anyway this component, if and when it surfaces, will make that hat useless. I'll have to mod the hat to give some other effect... OR, if I succeed in turning the vanilla bard song ability into psionics, I can use the hat as some kind of psionic booster.

    Skatan
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Skatan said:

    Examples would be to pick increased backstab multiplier or stronger poison if you want to be an assassin, or special traps if you want to be a bounty hunter rogue. Or you could pick AC bonus and/or THAC0 bonuses if you want to be a swashbuckler etc. Sorta lika mini-HLA's. One can dream, hehe :)

    I think something like that will be part of it - basically, rogues can pick a feat once every ~4 levels to give themselves some kind of bonus. Each kit will be an archetype, and have access to a selection of abilities specific to that archetype.

    So for instance, a basic Assassin archetype could get backstab multipliers and/or melee thac0 bonuses, and mimic the vanilla Assassin; or you could take ranged combat bonuses and called shots, and become a Sniper. So those two kits could be collapsed together.

    A "Bard" who can use each variety of magic songs once/day could choose another use of some pool or another. So you could focus on buffing songs, or charming songs, etc.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited November 2015
    Another idea, for the Item Overhaul: make wizard scrolls usable by anyone, but with very high INT requirements. Say:
    - 16 Int to cast level 1-2 spells from scroll
    - 17 Int for level 3-4 spells
    - 18 Int for level 5-6 spells
    - 19 Int for level 7-8 spells
    - 20 Int for level 9 spells

    That would be for casting from scroll *only*. Wizards with 17 Int could still scribe a level 8 scroll into their spellbook, presumably taking due time to understand it and transcribe it in a way that makes it easy to memorize and then cast. The idea is, casting right from the scroll without taking the time to transcribe it is more difficult, and thus requires greater intelligence.

    Benefits:
    - payoff for playing a smart warrior or rogue etc.
    - reasons for tactical use of potions and other Int boosts, to cast high-level scrolls.

    Alternatively, restrict this to Rogues. Maybe make it part of the RCO.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,252
    I say yes but i'd then reduce caster level to 1/4 of character level for non-caster classes and have caster classes cast from scrolls at full caster level.

    Also i'd give scrolls to enemies, give many of them higher intelligence, and a script to use them - generally at the start of a battle so nothing fancy (i'd give rogue enemies improved invisibility, glitterdust, ghost armor; to warrior enemies i'd give blur, strength, stoneskin; druids get aganazzar's, fireshield, ice storm; paladins get remove magic, enchanted weapon, deafness; monks get haste...)

    Also, minor sequencers (prepared)

    And the scrolls would need to get a lot cheaper i guess (you'd find a bunch of them on corpses) and less abundant in shops

    What about priest scrolls then?

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