intelligence can determine after which level your spell progression stops *but also* which lower spell levels are excepted (from progression cap)
so for example: with intelligence 17 your spell progression would halt at lvl19, but levels1-6 would be uncapped (which means you're stuck with a single lvl9 slot for the rest of the game, but can cast lots of lvl6 spells)
with intelligence 9, your spell progression would halt past lvl8, but lvls1-2 would be uncapped
intelligence could somehow affect critical hits - you're smarter so you can spot your enemies' vulnerabilities better
you could split enemies into tiers: easy to crit (tier1 - for example goblins), average (tier2 - trolls), hard to crit (tier3 - golems) and currently crit immune enemies (tier4)
int=9: can only crit tier1 enemies int=12: can crit tier2 int=15: can crit tier3 int=16: bonus for tier1 int=17: bonus for tier2 int=18: bonus for tier3 int=19: can crit tier4
I very much doubt we'd have incremental luck or casting speed bonuses. Maybe +1 for a score of 16 or 17 or 18.
@bob_veng: I don't think it's possible to do that specific thing in the IE games, but the idea makes sense. A slight boost to critical hit chance would be a good substitute. Or, a bonus to hit and damage against the enemy types you describe.
I gave a try to your mod in icewind dale ee, much to say about it. Playing races party with themes linked to their race and level 1 HOF.
- Pros : The quickstride for babrbarian, monks and ranger, il really love it, now i love playing monks.
The kensai kit is awesome, like you say : it shines.
You split the ranger archer kit and removed from the overhaul becoming stand alone kits, a great idea.
- Cons : I wonder why you hate the berzerker, the new rage (version 1.4) is good, but why *** in weapon and * in fighting style ? It's nerfing too much the kit, you killed the berzerker !
The blade is nerfed too, the offensive spin is not ridiculous : self haste without the fatigue. Also your blade cannot spec in some weapons. I prefer the vanilla blade.
The halflings now can be ranger, but halas cannot use divine spells
I understand, i gave a try, and love your mod, and kits. Is the version 1.4 removes the stat penalities for the multiclass kits ?
The zerk is a fighter, ok for the *** for weapon, but i think only one * in fighting style is too less.
A fighter with no kit : he can have ***** weapon and *** in two weapons fighting style. Grand mastery damage +5, -3 speed factor, permanent 3,5 apr (4.5 at level 13), -2 malus for the 2nd weapon
Your zerk : *** weapon and * in two weapons fighting style mastery damage +3, 0 speed factor, he has 2.5 apr (3.5 at level 13), 3.5 apr with rage, and -4 malus for the 2nd weapon
The no kit fighter is better just because it's permanent, he doesn't have to rage to gain benefits.
When a kit a inferior to a no kit, i can say it's a big nerf.
Compare with my favorite kit, the corsair : - flaws : GM only for light bladed weapons and wear only light armor - benefit : swashbucking
It's a balanced kit
The vanilla zerk is too overpowered, a fighter with no flaws only gains. Your zerk has only flaws, the new rage doesn't counterbalance it.
For the blade, you removed the offensive spin, ok why not, but the blade dance is a chant, so the blade cannot use it while fighting. It's a sort of skald chant, but the vanilla skald is not designed to fight, he's a support bard, the blade is made for fighting, the new chant is pointless.
@subtledoctor just a heads up @Petrol looks like they said they were talking about IWDEE (or as they put it "icewind dale ee"). So if that is the case then they would be correct (which wouldn't be a change from how the original Icewind Dale handled grandmastery).
Edit: And what I mean by my statement is that Icewind Dale Enhanced Edition works differently than the BG series in terms of what amount of APR is granted when you hit grandmastery.
BGEE/BG2EE: Grandmastery gives +1 over being proficient. IWDEE: Grandmastery gives +1.5 over being proficient.
My vision of the zerk : he's a mad fighter. *** in weapon why not, but not all, a zerk with dagger, club, sling or a short sword ?! I think you can remove these weapons. Also Halberd, spear ?
A zerk loves axes, longswords, maces, 2H sword, maybe quaterstaff and flail/morgenstein.
The rage must make him unique and better than an un-kitted fighter.
As you can see, ALL Enhanced Edition games gives +1.5 apr from Grand Mastery. You don't have these games ?
Your rage is underpowered, with it the zerk has 3 apr, the fighter has permanent 3.5 apr.
- Give it something more, like maxing damage
- Or you could give the zerk a +1 to rolls beginning at level 1 and increasind each 6 level.
- Or give him a permanent 0.5 apr bonus at creation.
I prefer +1 rolls.
I also think the zerk would not wear a plate mail, with 2 weapons it's not logical.
Take a comparison : in frosty journey you have the kit myrmidon, it's a upgrade of the fighter, balanced kit, and i think a player can chose this one over the vanilla zerk.
A demand : can you open the bladesinger to half elf ?
I really need to get my comp up and running again so I can dl these mods! Wow, @subtledoctor, I'm very impressed in what you are aiming for. It correlate alot with ideas I have though about and adds a ton more I would never have imagined.
A couple of incoherent comments below, since I just now found this thread.
Since I haven't tried it yet, and since you have already moved on from the discussion about stat bonuses, this may be too late, but: *CHA could perhaps add to or enhance the effect of bard songs, *WIS, since it in some ways include perception, could be the base for increased crit dmg. This would make WIS a good stat for fighters not to dump. I don't think INT should do this and since DEX is already a great stat, it would be too great of a gain to max DEX for the benefits if it were both crit and AC/THAC0 boosts.
Overall I like the idea of having each stat add bonuses to different saves, like someone above wrote (forgot who). It's very 3E-esque.
I just thought of something, probably completely crazy though. Can the favoured enemy tab be used for adding something like "talents" to non-ranger classes? Perhaps one could use the favoured enemy tab on other classes but with other bonuses. Like a bard getting increased chance to charm/confuse enemies etc or a cleric getting specific deity bonuses. I'm guessing the favoured enemies tab is prolly hardcoded and can't be altered since I have never read about mods using that for adding new things.
Personally I love the blade for its flavour and hybrid ways, even though it's kinda 'broken'. The difference between a bladesinger and a blade is that a blade is a 'rogue' and not a buffed fighter. Which bard kit is the most similar to the old blade? I like what you have done to barb/berzerker. It fits my view on it as well.
I'm not a fan of the new terms for fighting styles though. No offense, but 'phalanx' was a distinctive style for fighting in formation and cannot really be applied to a single fighter (and ofc it was shield/spear, but nevermind that). Fighting with twohanded swords was probably alot more than just cleaving. There are many military theorists, practitioners and reenactors who has concluded that often the twohanded sword was used for "half-swording" when in close melee, so you didn't really always 'cleave'. Also it fails to apply to spears who are mainly used for thrusting. Finesse is the best one of the new names IMHO, but I have doubts there as well since fighting with a weapon onehanded can be just as aggressive as weilding one in two hands (which is why I would like it to add APR, but I know it can't be done). So, with that said I actually think the original names are better, except for "dual weilding" which I like. Sword and shield could be named just "shield style" or "shield and weapon style". It was very common to fight very offensively using a shield, so calling it something like "defensive style" would be incorrect as well. Sorry for the rant, I really hope you take this as constructive critiscm and nothing else since I am at awe at what you have accomplished with your mods!
Since I haven't tried your mod(s) yet but read that the bards get new songs and no more arcane spells, I wonder, do their songs work as usual? Meaning it limits them from doing anything else but sing to get the effect. If they no longer have arcane spells I would have prefered to have their songs have casting time, just as regular spells, and a duration, again just a regular spells, but just not be based from a spellbook. This means bards could still be used as "fighter/mages", meaning they could sing ("cast a spell") then ´still be able to attack for the rest of the round. If you find this OP, then their casting time could be increased but also the duration of the spells so that some songs could be used as buffs pre-fight, others mid-fight, and some after fights while still enabling the bard to contribute actively in the actual fighting. Personally, I find skalds and vanilla bards the least interresting since they just stand there singing most of the times.
Alot of rambling thoughts. I'm at work as usual, so I haven't really taken the time to re-read what I've written and correct it.
Thanks for all your great work. Looking forward to trying this mod! (finally done with renovating my apartment, so I can prolly setup my comp within a week )
I just thought of something, probably completely crazy though. Can the favoured enemy tab be used for adding something like "talents" to non-ranger classes?
I love your thinking... actually I really really love it. Not exactly non-weapon proficiencies, more like Fallout's "traits" - one-time choices that distinguish the character's focus. If I could do this, I would probably restrict it to Rogues. Maybe even fold it into my Rogue Class Overhaul.
But, unfortunately, my understanding is that the ranger 'favored enemy' menu is super-hard-coded and beyond my reach as a modder.
Yeah, that was what I imagined, that it prolly can't be done. IF it can somehow be done though, it could in theory be used to reduce the number of kits and instead add 'traits' that you pick to tailor your charname. Examples would be to pick increased backstab multiplier or stronger poison if you want to be an assassin, or special traps if you want to be a bounty hunter rogue. Or you could pick AC bonus and/or THAC0 bonuses if you want to be a swashbuckler etc. Sorta lika mini-HLA's. One can dream, hehe
I think you're referring to the Rogue Class Overhaul, which unfortunately is not yet part of the mod. It's still a concept in my head. But the concept is exactly as you say: no bard songs as they currently exist, instead 'bards' will have music-based innate abilities that work like normal spells. So you could 'sing' a buffing song that has a duration of, say, 5 or 10 rounds, and then jump into combat during that time. I might try to get clever and code it such that if the bard gets struck by an enemy, it cancels the 'song.' We'll see.
But unfortunately that component is still just a twinkle in my eye, and RL being what it is, I don't see getting it done before mid-2016.
Aha, read the entire thread in one go, so must have misread that part. Didn't realize that was WIP. May become easier and/or unecessary with the 'bard hat' in SoD though.
I say yes but i'd then reduce caster level to 1/4 of character level for non-caster classes and have caster classes cast from scrolls at full caster level.
Also i'd give scrolls to enemies, give many of them higher intelligence, and a script to use them - generally at the start of a battle so nothing fancy (i'd give rogue enemies improved invisibility, glitterdust, ghost armor; to warrior enemies i'd give blur, strength, stoneskin; druids get aganazzar's, fireshield, ice storm; paladins get remove magic, enchanted weapon, deafness; monks get haste...)
Also, minor sequencers (prepared)
And the scrolls would need to get a lot cheaper i guess (you'd find a bunch of them on corpses) and less abundant in shops
Comments
intelligence can determine after which level your spell progression stops *but also* which lower spell levels are excepted (from progression cap)
so for example: with intelligence 17 your spell progression would halt at lvl19, but levels1-6 would be uncapped (which means you're stuck with a single lvl9 slot for the rest of the game, but can cast lots of lvl6 spells)
with intelligence 9, your spell progression would halt past lvl8, but lvls1-2 would be uncapped
you could split enemies into tiers: easy to crit (tier1 - for example goblins), average (tier2 - trolls), hard to crit (tier3 - golems) and currently crit immune enemies (tier4)
int=9: can only crit tier1 enemies
int=12: can crit tier2
int=15: can crit tier3
int=16: bonus for tier1
int=17: bonus for tier2
int=18: bonus for tier3
int=19: can crit tier4
@bob_veng: I don't think it's possible to do that specific thing in the IE games, but the idea makes sense. A slight boost to critical hit chance would be a good substitute. Or, a bonus to hit and damage against the enemy types you describe.
I gave a try to your mod in icewind dale ee, much to say about it.
Playing races party with themes linked to their race and level 1 HOF.
- Pros :
The quickstride for babrbarian, monks and ranger, il really love it, now i love playing monks.
The kensai kit is awesome, like you say : it shines.
You split the ranger archer kit and removed from the overhaul becoming stand alone kits, a great idea.
- Cons :
I wonder why you hate the berzerker, the new rage (version 1.4) is good, but why *** in weapon and * in fighting style ? It's nerfing too much the kit, you killed the berzerker !
The blade is nerfed too, the offensive spin is not ridiculous : self haste without the fatigue. Also your blade cannot spec in some weapons. I prefer the vanilla blade.
The halflings now can be ranger, but halas cannot use divine spells
Is the version 1.4 removes the stat penalities for the multiclass kits ?
The zerk is a fighter, ok for the *** for weapon, but i think only one * in fighting style is too less.
A fighter with no kit :
he can have ***** weapon and *** in two weapons fighting style.
Grand mastery damage +5, -3 speed factor, permanent 3,5 apr (4.5 at level 13), -2 malus for the 2nd weapon
Your zerk :
*** weapon and * in two weapons fighting style
mastery damage +3, 0 speed factor, he has 2.5 apr (3.5 at level 13), 3.5 apr with rage, and -4 malus for the 2nd weapon
The no kit fighter is better just because it's permanent, he doesn't have to rage to gain benefits.
When a kit a inferior to a no kit, i can say it's a big nerf.
Compare with my favorite kit, the corsair :
- flaws : GM only for light bladed weapons and wear only light armor
- benefit : swashbucking
It's a balanced kit
The vanilla zerk is too overpowered, a fighter with no flaws only gains.
Your zerk has only flaws, the new rage doesn't counterbalance it.
For the blade, you removed the offensive spin, ok why not, but the blade dance is a chant, so the blade cannot use it while fighting.
It's a sort of skald chant, but the vanilla skald is not designed to fight, he's a support bard, the blade is made for fighting, the new chant is pointless.
The bladesinger is limited to elf, my half elf party cannot recruit him . I keep the vanilla bard blade.
What i'm trying to say is that your zerk is weakier than the vanilla one, no one will play it.
Even un unkitted fighter is less better.
fighter : 1 + 1 from level 13 + 1.5 from GM = 3.5 apr
Revisited zerk : 1 + 1 from level 13 + 0.5 from spec + 0.5 from rage = 3 apr
(rules of enhanced edition)
Take a test, you will see.
You can see this link too (at the bottom)
http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Proficiency_Benefits
I didn't mention the Thac0, but your zerk gains +2 max with *** and a GM fighter gains +3
Edit: And what I mean by my statement is that Icewind Dale Enhanced Edition works differently than the BG series in terms of what amount of APR is granted when you hit grandmastery.
BGEE/BG2EE: Grandmastery gives +1 over being proficient.
IWDEE: Grandmastery gives +1.5 over being proficient.
*** in weapon why not, but not all, a zerk with dagger, club, sling or a short sword ?! I think you can remove these weapons. Also Halberd, spear ?
A zerk loves axes, longswords, maces, 2H sword, maybe quaterstaff and flail/morgenstein.
The rage must make him unique and better than an un-kitted fighter.
As you can see, ALL Enhanced Edition games gives +1.5 apr from Grand Mastery.
You don't have these games ?
Your rage is underpowered, with it the zerk has 3 apr, the fighter has permanent 3.5 apr.
- Give it something more, like maxing damage
- Or you could give the zerk a +1 to rolls beginning at level 1 and increasind each 6 level.
- Or give him a permanent 0.5 apr bonus at creation.
I prefer +1 rolls.
I also think the zerk would not wear a plate mail, with 2 weapons it's not logical.
Take a comparison : in frosty journey you have the kit myrmidon, it's a upgrade of the fighter, balanced kit, and i think a player can chose this one over the vanilla zerk.
A demand : can you open the bladesinger to half elf ?
A couple of incoherent comments below, since I just now found this thread.
Since I haven't tried it yet, and since you have already moved on from the discussion about stat bonuses, this may be too late, but:
*CHA could perhaps add to or enhance the effect of bard songs,
*WIS, since it in some ways include perception, could be the base for increased crit dmg. This would make WIS a good stat for fighters not to dump. I don't think INT should do this and since DEX is already a great stat, it would be too great of a gain to max DEX for the benefits if it were both crit and AC/THAC0 boosts.
Overall I like the idea of having each stat add bonuses to different saves, like someone above wrote (forgot who). It's very 3E-esque.
I just thought of something, probably completely crazy though. Can the favoured enemy tab be used for adding something like "talents" to non-ranger classes? Perhaps one could use the favoured enemy tab on other classes but with other bonuses. Like a bard getting increased chance to charm/confuse enemies etc or a cleric getting specific deity bonuses. I'm guessing the favoured enemies tab is prolly hardcoded and can't be altered since I have never read about mods using that for adding new things.
Personally I love the blade for its flavour and hybrid ways, even though it's kinda 'broken'. The difference between a bladesinger and a blade is that a blade is a 'rogue' and not a buffed fighter. Which bard kit is the most similar to the old blade?
I like what you have done to barb/berzerker. It fits my view on it as well.
I'm not a fan of the new terms for fighting styles though. No offense, but 'phalanx' was a distinctive style for fighting in formation and cannot really be applied to a single fighter (and ofc it was shield/spear, but nevermind that). Fighting with twohanded swords was probably alot more than just cleaving. There are many military theorists, practitioners and reenactors who has concluded that often the twohanded sword was used for "half-swording" when in close melee, so you didn't really always 'cleave'. Also it fails to apply to spears who are mainly used for thrusting. Finesse is the best one of the new names IMHO, but I have doubts there as well since fighting with a weapon onehanded can be just as aggressive as weilding one in two hands (which is why I would like it to add APR, but I know it can't be done).
So, with that said I actually think the original names are better, except for "dual weilding" which I like. Sword and shield could be named just "shield style" or "shield and weapon style". It was very common to fight very offensively using a shield, so calling it something like "defensive style" would be incorrect as well. Sorry for the rant, I really hope you take this as constructive critiscm and nothing else since I am at awe at what you have accomplished with your mods!
Since I haven't tried your mod(s) yet but read that the bards get new songs and no more arcane spells, I wonder, do their songs work as usual? Meaning it limits them from doing anything else but sing to get the effect. If they no longer have arcane spells I would have prefered to have their songs have casting time, just as regular spells, and a duration, again just a regular spells, but just not be based from a spellbook. This means bards could still be used as "fighter/mages", meaning they could sing ("cast a spell") then ´still be able to attack for the rest of the round. If you find this OP, then their casting time could be increased but also the duration of the spells so that some songs could be used as buffs pre-fight, others mid-fight, and some after fights while still enabling the bard to contribute actively in the actual fighting. Personally, I find skalds and vanilla bards the least interresting since they just stand there singing most of the times.
Alot of rambling thoughts. I'm at work as usual, so I haven't really taken the time to re-read what I've written and correct it.
Thanks for all your great work. Looking forward to trying this mod! (finally done with renovating my apartment, so I can prolly setup my comp within a week
Yeah, that was what I imagined, that it prolly can't be done. IF it can somehow be done though, it could in theory be used to reduce the number of kits and instead add 'traits' that you pick to tailor your charname. Examples would be to pick increased backstab multiplier or stronger poison if you want to be an assassin, or special traps if you want to be a bounty hunter rogue. Or you could pick AC bonus and/or THAC0 bonuses if you want to be a swashbuckler etc. Sorta lika mini-HLA's. One can dream, hehe
edit: i think it will give you "lingering song" from here: http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/rr_core.html#Bard_High_Level_Ability_revisions
Also i'd give scrolls to enemies, give many of them higher intelligence, and a script to use them - generally at the start of a battle so nothing fancy (i'd give rogue enemies improved invisibility, glitterdust, ghost armor; to warrior enemies i'd give blur, strength, stoneskin; druids get aganazzar's, fireshield, ice storm; paladins get remove magic, enchanted weapon, deafness; monks get haste...)
Also, minor sequencers (prepared)
And the scrolls would need to get a lot cheaper i guess (you'd find a bunch of them on corpses) and less abundant in shops
What about priest scrolls then?