Don't be aftraid to use triple class characters, even in parties. Especially with SoD on the horizon
JuliusBorisov
Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,756
During my latest playing sessions, I've come to a conclusion that using a triple class character in a party is not a bad idea at all, while the general consensus on this subject is "they're far behind in levels", "they trail too much". It isn't so. I don't agree with this consensus/
I've created a table that compares possible levels, THAC0, proficiency points and spell levels for single and multiclass characters in BGEE, including possible XP caps for SoD. Here's the screenshot, the full file is attached to the post.
A FMC under the BGEE level cap has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/C, -0,5 ARP and doesn't get an access to the 4th level divine spells, but instead gets an access to the 3rd level arcane spells (including haste), the number of proficiencies is the same.
A FMT under the BGEE level cap has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/T, -0,5 ARP, -25 thieving points, but instead gets an access to the 3rd level arcane spells (including haste), the number of proficiencies and the backstab multiplier are the same.
As for the possible SoD XP caps, the situation becomes even more appealing (no matter if the cap is 500k, 441k, or 659k) - check the tables.
For example, under the XP cap of 500k, a FMC has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/C, gets 1 proficiency less, doesn't get an access to the 5th level divine spells, but instead gets an access to the 5th level arcane spells.
Under the XP cap of 500k, a FMT has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/T, gets 1 proficiency less, -25 thieving points, but instead gets an access to the 5th level arcane spells, the backstab multiplier is the same.
P.S. With any of the possible SoD XP caps, Sorcerers get a major boost, getting an access to the 5th level arcane spells. Druids also will get a boost in the form of an access to the 6th level divine spells, even multiclass Fighter/Druids.
I've created a table that compares possible levels, THAC0, proficiency points and spell levels for single and multiclass characters in BGEE, including possible XP caps for SoD. Here's the screenshot, the full file is attached to the post.
A FMC under the BGEE level cap has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/C, -0,5 ARP and doesn't get an access to the 4th level divine spells, but instead gets an access to the 3rd level arcane spells (including haste), the number of proficiencies is the same.
A FMT under the BGEE level cap has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/T, -0,5 ARP, -25 thieving points, but instead gets an access to the 3rd level arcane spells (including haste), the number of proficiencies and the backstab multiplier are the same.
As for the possible SoD XP caps, the situation becomes even more appealing (no matter if the cap is 500k, 441k, or 659k) - check the tables.
For example, under the XP cap of 500k, a FMC has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/C, gets 1 proficiency less, doesn't get an access to the 5th level divine spells, but instead gets an access to the 5th level arcane spells.
Under the XP cap of 500k, a FMT has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/T, gets 1 proficiency less, -25 thieving points, but instead gets an access to the 5th level arcane spells, the backstab multiplier is the same.
P.S. With any of the possible SoD XP caps, Sorcerers get a major boost, getting an access to the 5th level arcane spells. Druids also will get a boost in the form of an access to the 6th level divine spells, even multiclass Fighter/Druids.
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Comments
However, the "consensus" advice that triple-classes lag a lot is based on the linear progression-scale at BG2 levels, where it's got some truth to it. With the geometric progression-scale at BG1 levels, that effect hasn't yet kicked in, so the lag isn't excessive. And as you've now illustrated in your table, even single-class characters are only slightly into the linear-progression range at the end of SoD, so it doesn't yet have much impact.
It's mid-SoA onwards where the lag becomes a major consideration. Of course that's not a reason not to use multi-class characters (even triple-class characters), but it's a reason to play them according to their helpful synergies to compensate for their lower levels.
However I am cautious when it comes to static comparisons of certain values.
Let me explain with a simplistic example:
I think everyone can feel the boost in the hit rate with a fighter goes from lvl1 to lvl2. That's a single point of thac0 but the effects are noticeable.
Even though rolling a 20-side dice is an equi-distribution, it does not mean that the resulting effects in the game are linear. Going from 20 to 19 simply doubles your chance to hit an AC0.
And obviously your triple class guy is going to stick to the lvl1 for a while...
This is true of several metrics and different periods of the game. Noticeaby saving throws at the other end of the spectrum. For instance no wonder why the F/C in your party is more subject to various enchantment spells, the difference does not look huge on paper but statistically it takes a different trend.
All of that, not to contradict Bengoshi's theory. Even if triple classes take a bit long to take off, they are nice to play in BG1, I confirm!
I am a bit less enthusiastic as the party progresses through SoA and ToB. In fact that's perhaps more a question of relative efficiency. If you play with a quite large team, chances are that another character is more efficient for such or such a task. The key point becomes the synergy between your classes and this is where I cannot restrain myself from asking what the added value brought by the third class is. And more clearly: what do I really get from the F part? When your M part is three level behind the dual class setup that matters.
Question of playstyle I suppose. I need to find a cure
As you see, the difference during SoA and at 3 mln XP is still not huge.
At 1 mln XP, a triple class character has the same number APR and the same backstab multiplier as a double class character. But instead check their gains in spells.
At 2 mln XP, a triple class character again has the same number APR and the same backstab multiplier as a double class character. And again, check their gains in spells.
At 3 mln XP, a triple class character has an APR that is 0.5 worse, the backstab multiplier is the same. But a triple class character gets HLAs at the same time as a double class character - as soon as she hits 3 mln XP overall and gets any next level up. The difference in HLAs is only mage-pool Quest spells. But for such a character, you most likely will start taking fighter and thief HLAs anyway.
The XLS file is attached.
Also, your notes on Druids and Sorcerers are compelling. Once SoD comes out I may finally get around to playing a Sorcerer or single-class Druid (and take another stab at the Fighter/Druid multi).
Take that rebels.
But seriously, I don't think they would have included triple class characters if the penalties were too harsh to make them worth your while. That being said, the slow progress and weakened abilities are very real and should not be downplayed. Look at a fighter vs a FMT at 3 million XP and then consider grand mastery and the limitations on race. It's is a very substantial fighting ability sacrifice. Ultimately it is the player's responsibility to surround these characters with the correct item setup and NPC party to make it worth their while. This might not be something that a beginner is ready to do. It depends how OCD they are. I noticed many triple class players tend to favor mods as well. Mods tend to sway things in favor of triple class by making magic more important, adding +5 weapons to the game, allowing grand mastery ect.
I think any big fan of the game should try out triple class at some point. They really are fun and powerful but they do have there downsides as well. I do agree with Bengoshi that SOD will probably make it easier to play a triple class character but from the looks of it, I think SOD might make BG2 easier in general for all classes.
I still have this one though. Quickly edited to add the last four lines showing the XP amount (and levels) at which the mage double and triple classes get their best saving throws conditions beyond the 8M XP cap.
Edit: typo for the cleric level 38 (declared as 37).
Edit: jpg for those who just want the picture instead of the spreadsheet
My issue is that this covers up through projected SoD XP caps, which are just at the point of hitting where XP requirements switch from exponential to linear, so triple classes are basically at the height of their power relative to everyone else before they're quickly left in the dust. I don't think there was ever a question of triple class characters holding their own in Baldur's Gate. Its always nice to be able to have a low level thief that can focus on Hide and Backstab instead of Locks and Traps, and extra support spells are always a plus, but the major flaw of triple classes is still that once you hit about 1 million total XP your advancement slows to a crawl.
I think that sums up nicely what goes on with triple classes. They basically slow down during SoA and ToB, and while Dual Classes have a similar slow down, they still hit a point of "You're just grinding out HLAs".
The situation is still the same as it ever was. If you're dragging a character through the whole trilogy, a triple class is going to start dragging mid Shadows of Amn and never catch up in Throne of Bhaal. If all you're doing is playing BG or soon SoD, no worries, the XP cap is (probably) not high enough for it to matter.
I probably do not deserve your notation for a simple file. Thank you.
Unrelated:
F/M/C is a special class. You really need to feel like the winner of the lottery when rolling the dice.
Getting high intelligence and wisdom scores on top of decent physical abilities is no simple task.
Edit: typos...
Personally the only reason I would do it is for roleplaying reasons or really wanting those extra attacks per round you get from the fighter levels. Other than that, dual/multi-class M/C or M/T are just fine (I cannot say C/T here because F/C/T is not possible).
[edit] Actually, I just realized that I clearly state with this that I find of all classes represented by the triple class, the fighter class to be the least relevant. Who'd have thought... [/edit]
Problematics with the triple class... only the really really early levels of the triple class protagonist.
It just takes ~3x as much XP (read time) to get to level 2/2/2 while your companions happily progress to level 5 or 6 in the meantime.
For me, the level 2/2/2 happens around chapter 3-4 BG1, so I generally see that the companions have access to "more" spells, thac0, etc, while my protagonist is still just getting started with character development.
Once the triple class gets to level 3/3/3 or thereabouts, it starts to be as "good" as the single class companions who will be in the level 8-10 region, and I find that from there on the game is just as challenging as a single class protagonist (or dual/multi class for that matter).
Anything beyond level 3/3/3 is the same cake walk as single or dual/multi class. (Unless you use tactical mods for which you need certain level spells, but then you still have companions for those spells. Personally I do not miss the high level spells as a dual/multi/triple protagonist).
Character optimization discussion I find rather irrelevant (getting max thac0, max damage, high level spells, etc). You have a party, buffs, potions, gear... just about anything to improve where you trail behind the single classes. Character optimization discussions are tedious and superfluous
At 15,000 XP, the F/M/T is 3/3/4, the single class Fighter is level 4 (nearly 5).
Around level 10 or 11 depending on classes, the experience required to gain a level becomes linear and from this point, single class characters will on average level three times as much as triple class characters.
Still I agree that getting to the level 2/2/2 is really tedious if you recruit a 6-man party as soon as possible and go straight for some kobold hunting in Nashkel, that's why I prefer to do a few fetching quests alone then to kill Shoal this way you can be level 2/2/3 in about 5 minutes after the ambush.
(Also, the Skald song is a lot more potent than I gave it credit for being.)
They have still earnt the same xp.
Playing style however is different. You cannot use a F/M/T as a fighter in the late game, obviously.
But then comparing them to a fighter is plane wrong!
Casting mislead, hiding your false self, and then chunking every enemy nearby backstabbing, is what makes a F/M/T powerful in the late game...
On the other hand... Having a character able to sneak into a house single handed, cast knock and then be able to carry out all the loot is appealing to me in the early game.
Lastly... Role playing... It is obvious Charaname learnt to cast magic from his step dad, thieving from his sister and killing from his father... It makes sense...
It is worthwhile to note that early npc tend to have 1-2 thousand more xp than the protagonist.