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Don't be aftraid to use triple class characters, even in parties. Especially with SoD on the horizon

JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 14,870
During my latest playing sessions, I've come to a conclusion that using a triple class character in a party is not a bad idea at all, while the general consensus on this subject is "they're far behind in levels", "they trail too much". It isn't so. I don't agree with this consensus/

I've created a table that compares possible levels, THAC0, proficiency points and spell levels for single and multiclass characters in BGEE, including possible XP caps for SoD. Here's the screenshot, the full file is attached to the post.

image

A FMC under the BGEE level cap has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/C, -0,5 ARP and doesn't get an access to the 4th level divine spells, but instead gets an access to the 3rd level arcane spells (including haste), the number of proficiencies is the same.

A FMT under the BGEE level cap has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/T, -0,5 ARP, -25 thieving points, but instead gets an access to the 3rd level arcane spells (including haste), the number of proficiencies and the backstab multiplier are the same.

As for the possible SoD XP caps, the situation becomes even more appealing (no matter if the cap is 500k, 441k, or 659k) - check the tables.

For example, under the XP cap of 500k, a FMC has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/C, gets 1 proficiency less, doesn't get an access to the 5th level divine spells, but instead gets an access to the 5th level arcane spells.

Under the XP cap of 500k, a FMT has only +1 THAC0 worse than a F/T, gets 1 proficiency less, -25 thieving points, but instead gets an access to the 5th level arcane spells, the backstab multiplier is the same.

P.S. With any of the possible SoD XP caps, Sorcerers get a major boost, getting an access to the 5th level arcane spells. Druids also will get a boost in the form of an access to the 6th level divine spells, even multiclass Fighter/Druids.

GoturalBlackravenGallowglassMathsorcererMusignylolienBelgarathMTHKaigenBillyYankmlneveseSon_of_ImoendunbarBigfishlunarfireandsteel73typo_tillyAnduinThacoBellluskanMirageEadwyn_G8keeperGrammarsaladFinnTheHumanjustfeelinathomeCal_ElEnialusMeliamneFaydarkQbertwoowoovoodooinethalceryesConjurerDragonShikaoRAM021ProontLoxiney
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Comments

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,059
    Nice work @bengoshi! And I subscribe to your message, but then I wouldn't advise against using any class or kit. :)

    JuliusBorisovGoturalGallowglassMusigny
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,577
    I'd be interested in seeing @bengoshi 's chart expanded to include comparison of levels of the triple classes to others through SoA and ToB. I think it might especially hurt in ToB if the HLA's are late coming, or never come.

    Musignydr_mudsRAM021Proont
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,357
    @BelgarathMTH Actually multis get HLAs the same time single classes do. Only duals get delayed.

    MusignyGoturalRAM021Proont
  • YupImMadBroYupImMadBro Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 347
    I have been meaning to try a triple class character but I think I am going to attempt it in IWD:EE before BG:EE.

    JuliusBorisovMusignyRAM021Proont
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,611
    Personally I'd rather just play a Fighter/Mage over a Fighter/Mage/Cleric.

    the_sexteinMusignyProont
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,017
    edited January 2016
    I had a saving throw table with the exact breakpoints but apparently I lost it.
    I still have this one though. Quickly edited to add the last four lines showing the XP amount (and levels) at which the mage double and triple classes get their best saving throws conditions beyond the 8M XP cap.

    Edit: typo for the cleric level 38 (declared as 37).

    Post edited by Musigny on
    JuliusBorisovRAM021
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,611
    edited January 2016
    Yea F/M/C is really a class where I'd recommend you use some custom scripting. Saves you from having to repeatedly order up each buff.

    KaigenMusignytypo_tillyRAM021
  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    You can ease the Multi-Ability Dependence of the F/M/C by making some strategic concessions. You don't need to have an 18 starting Int for 19 with the Tome, because unless you've taken the XP cap off you'll never hit 9th level spells anyway, meaning you can run with a 15 or 16 Int and use potions when you need to scribe extra spells. Similarly, you've got no shortage of options for boosting strength up between your spells and magic items. Taking all that into account, you can squeak by with a roll in the high 80's, especially if you place another character with high Charisma in the party leader position until you get the Ring of Human Influence early in BG2.

    MusignyJuliusBorisovProont
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,427
    edited January 2016
    I can understand player incentive to play triple classes. It gives more abilities for the hero protagonist, thereby becoming a jack of most trades. Not all, because you either miss thieving or clerical spells. What you lack is often possible to overcome with gear and consumables.

    Personally the only reason I would do it is for roleplaying reasons or really wanting those extra attacks per round you get from the fighter levels. Other than that, dual/multi-class M/C or M/T are just fine (I cannot say C/T here because F/C/T is not possible).
    [edit] Actually, I just realized that I clearly state with this that I find of all classes represented by the triple class, the fighter class to be the least relevant. Who'd have thought... [/edit]


    Problematics with the triple class... only the really really early levels of the triple class protagonist.
    It just takes ~3x as much XP (read time) to get to level 2/2/2 while your companions happily progress to level 5 or 6 in the meantime.

    For me, the level 2/2/2 happens around chapter 3-4 BG1, so I generally see that the companions have access to "more" spells, thac0, etc, while my protagonist is still just getting started with character development.

    Once the triple class gets to level 3/3/3 or thereabouts, it starts to be as "good" as the single class companions who will be in the level 8-10 region, and I find that from there on the game is just as challenging as a single class protagonist (or dual/multi class for that matter).

    Anything beyond level 3/3/3 is the same cake walk as single or dual/multi class. (Unless you use tactical mods for which you need certain level spells, but then you still have companions for those spells. Personally I do not miss the high level spells as a dual/multi/triple protagonist).

    Character optimization discussion I find rather irrelevant (getting max thac0, max damage, high level spells, etc). You have a party, buffs, potions, gear... just about anything to improve where you trail behind the single classes. Character optimization discussions are tedious and superfluous :p.

    RAM021Proont
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,017
    Where triple class characters lag behind others is when the single class characters reach their optimum mid BG2 (loosely around 3M XP). At 3Mxp a triple class is 8 thac0(=level) behind a single class fighter, hence my comment about the real added value of the F part in the triple class. As single class and double class characters reach their stats capacity limit earlier, triple class characters start to fill the gap in the second part or last third part of the game - on condition that you do not play with an un-nerfed thac0 mod such as BG2tweaks. (a component banned from most of my modern mod setups for that very reason).

  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    I recently made a 6 person party consisting of a F/M/C, F/M/T, Archer, Dragon Disciple, Berserker (to be dualled to Cleric), and Skald. I also made it a point to avoid early-game xp farms like the Basilisk Garden or Ankheg Farm. Certainly, the triple-classes are uncomfortably close to one-hit KO territory and remain there until 6000 xp when they get their second Fighter level. On the other hand, so far my F/M/T is dead even with the Archer in terms of percentage of xp from kills. I expect that gap will grow as the Archer hits level 7 and gains better APR faster, but by that point the F/M/T will probably be ready to move into melee and start backstabbing. I haven't noticed a significant difference in performance at the very early levels, and it's worth noting that the F/M/C in particular gets especially good saves out the gate (pity that shorty races can't be triple classes).

    (Also, the Skald song is a lot more potent than I gave it credit for being.)

    JuliusBorisovRAM021
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,611
    Anduin said:


    But then comparing them to a fighter is plain wrong!

    Corrected :)

    AnduinRAM021Proont
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,427
    @Gotural true, i must say that i did not do the full math there on the 2/2/2 and i kept the fast classes in mind. Good that you correct it.

    It is worthwhile to note that early npc tend to have 1-2 thousand more xp than the protagonist.

    Gotural
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,293
    Some of my earliest runs through BG1 were with a F/M/T in a full party.This is thread is making wanna run the full trilogy as one now. I haven't played a triple multiclass in almost 13 years. My Bard run may have just been put on hold.

    JuliusBorisov
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