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Don't be aftraid to use triple class characters, even in parties. Especially with SoD on the horizon

24

Comments

  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    Playing a triple class character in a party takes a little more planning if you don't want to overlap too much with your NPCs. I usually focus on two weapon fighting/set traps/self buffs which won't overlap with many NPCs, otherwise I get bored dragging around a bunch of bums that just stand there with their hands I'm their pockets while I do all of the dirty work...

    JuliusBorisovQuartzProont
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,199
    That's it, I'll start playing a F/M/C soon!

    MusignyJuliusBorisovelminsterRAM021
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,017
    edited January 2016
    Anduin said:

    F/M/T or F/M/C do not drag behind.
    Playing style however is different. You cannot use a F/M/T as a fighter in the late game, obviously.

    It makes sense to play it as a fighter (or any of the other classes), otherwise, do not choose a triple class in the first place.
    That was the whole point in my first post: If you "create" no benefit from the triple class synergies then just play a dual class.
    And, again, triple class characters are fun to play in the latest phases of the game. They are just harder to play when the SoA part of the game is well advanced but things get better afterwards.

    KaigengorgonzolaJuliusBorisovProont
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,188
    edited January 2016
    I'd be curious about a direct comparison of the two Fighter/Mage/Thief classes in the game, from anyone who has played both. I am referring to the Bard, of course, who is a single class that plays as a specialized FMT. Does not get the fighter multiple attacks, caps at level 6 spells, and misses the most useful Thief abilities, but levels at the Thief rate (which could be huge, when looking at picking up spells) and also has 3 distinct kits, of which the Blade strikes me as most directly an FMT-like approach.

    I'm not sure there is a real analog for an FMC, although Avenger druids do get some mage spells, and their own peculiar xp-curve...

    typo_tillyProont
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,312
    Cleric of lathander dualed to mage plays similarly mid to late game (minus some cleric hlas).

    RAM021
  • episkeptisepiskeptis Member Posts: 4
    Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see the point in having a triple class character in a full party. It might be fun in a solo run –haven’t tried it personally so I don’t have an opinion on the subject- but in a full party there should be characters that can perform and focus on different, specific tasks; hence I am not so sure that the versatility of a multi class character is needed, or that it can be used to its full potential for that matter.

    Proont
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 13,884
    If you have some time, @episkeptis , you can read reports on my run through BGEE with an evil team led by a FMT.

    It starts at https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/700935/#Comment_700935 and the screenshots in those reports show how a FMT shines in a 6-person party, being protected against physical and magical attacks, making reliable backstabs, switching to two-weapon fighting and killing more than 40% of enemies.

    My conclusion after that run was that being in the party actually helped a FMT, improved him, because he could use the effects of Improved Invisibility, Haste, Protection from Evil, Chant - all spells casted by other party members - to increase his effectiveness and survivability in several times.

    Proont
  • episkeptisepiskeptis Member Posts: 4
    That is kind of my point though; Since the party will already have (at least) one mage, why make your character a F/M/T? Personally I believe that the advantages of having a party of no triple-classed characters far outweigh the disadvantages and vice versa. I haven't read your aar though, so I might be forced to change my point of view...

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,179
    @episkeptis There is a huge number of self only buffs.

  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,767
    edited February 2016
    I wonder, has anyone made any math comparing ie THAC0 vs EXP progress of a F/M/T vs say a swashie/mage "illegal" MC?

    Personally I don't mind adding kits to MC's, though understandably, many dislike this. But if the F part of a triple class is only really there for THAC0 and possibly weapon proficiences (and maybe some HP boost), it would be interresting to compare the THAC0 of a FMT vs a swashie/mage at the same level of experience to see the comparison. The lack of APR can be somewhat off-set by using speed weapons in the offhand, as usual, for the swashie/mage and boon of lathander if you compare CoL/mage vs a FMC. Both swashie/mage and CoL/mage should get higher THAC0 from their TT's, though I've read somewhere that someone stated that TT is based on the total of MC's, but someone else stated that it's the averagle level per class. I don't know which is true.

    So my question is really, when comparing a triple MC vs a kitted multiclass without the fighter part, can the higher levels per class for a double MC off-set the lack of fighter levels from the triple MC, thus actually making it the "better" fighter?

    Also, I agree that the Blade is a decent SC comparison to the FMT, but far from perfect. It has it's drawbacks but the fast-paced leveling and the effect from TT make the blade an amazing fighter once buffed. Too bad we don't have a doomguard kit instead of the regular blade kit, the added specialization is great on haer'dalis. The lack of thieving skills make it more of FM than a FMT IMHO.

    RAM021
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,767
    edited February 2016
    Insightful @pantalion! Thanks for that extensive response. I'd give you a like as well, if it was allowed.

    Edit: btw, nice catch about the HLA pool being restricted to the MC original class. I hadn't thought of that before.

    Pantalion
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,199
    In general, a F/M/T has more HPs, more APRs, more damage, more spellcasting, more Thieving Skills, more THAC0, better HLAs and is being to backstab compared to a Blade.

    A.k.a the F/M/T is better at everything.

    But at some point of the game, the Blade can shine:

    -at the end of BG1, level 10, they have better spell casting abilities than F/M/Ts with level 4 spells and a caster level of 10. Plus at this level, both the Offensive Spin and the Defensive Spin abilities are extremely good.

    -in ToB, they have the Improved Bard Song which is crazy good overall, especially if a clone sings it.

    JuliusBorisovMusigny
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,017
    Gotural said:


    But at some point of the game, the Blade can shine:

    -at the end of BG1, level 10, they have better spell casting abilities than F/M/Ts with level 4 spells and a caster level of 10. Plus at this level, both the Offensive Spin and the Defensive Spin abilities are extremely good.

    That's not the example I had in mind. You know the blade better than I do but here is another element:
    At 2.2M XP the bard can cast 3 level6 spells whereas the triple class mage is about to get its first slot.
    And (s)he needs yet another 1.125M xp to gain a second one (or likey the third one thanks to an HLA or even the fourth one with an item).
    Here that's a bit specific to the level6 spells but from a more general standpoint, it takes a huge amount of time to see those mage levels progressing in SoA. Not rare to reach the end of SoA without gaining access to the first level7 spell, thus spending a third or even half of SoA with the same magical capabilities. You'd better be happy with the character setup you get early on.

    PantalionJuliusBorisov
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Musigny said:

    Gotural said:


    But at some point of the game, the Blade can shine:

    -at the end of BG1, level 10, they have better spell casting abilities than F/M/Ts with level 4 spells and a caster level of 10. Plus at this level, both the Offensive Spin and the Defensive Spin abilities are extremely good.

    That's not the example I had in mind. You know the blade better than I do but here is another element:
    At 2.2M XP the bard can cast 3 level6 spells whereas the triple class mage is about to get its first slot.
    And (s)he needs yet another 1.125M xp to gain a second one (or likey the third one thanks to an HLA or even the fourth one with an item).
    Here that's a bit specific to the level6 spells but from a more general standpoint, it takes a huge amount of time to see those mage levels progressing in SoA. Not rare to reach the end of SoA without gaining access to the first level7 spell, thus spending a third or even half of SoA with the same magical capabilities. You'd better be happy with the character setup you get early on.
    I believe that I did a whole thing comparing FMTs with Bards awhile back and it's pretty much neck and neck at low levels. Generally the Bard had more HP, better saves, and for most of SoA, about the same THAC0 as the FMT, with far stronger casting, while the FMT got the thief skills and fighter APR.

    The big problem is when bards hit level 20+, they hit the Rogue THAC0 cap and can't get beyond level 6, so they stagnate while the F/M/T keeps improving all through ToB.

    Also isn't their bard song bugged? It's supposed to grant a level based luck bonus or something and from what I've read, that was never actually applied, so the Blade "disadvantage" is non-existent.

  • tobajastobajas Member Posts: 77
    edited February 2016
    I never quite understood why at lvl 9-11 you dont get the 6th level spells instead you have to wait to lvl 12 which brakes the whole 1 new spell level per 2 lvls that goes one from 1-9 12-18 :neutral: was it to let the sorc's catch up so everyone got lvl 9 spells at lvl 18? :smiley:

    Anyhow triple class PC's are especially in later playthroughs OP in my own opinion especially FMT simply because F/M has always been pretty OP. But FMT removes the need of a thief in the group simply because FMT is more then capable to fill up the thief spot. And sadly with a chance of me getting hate, a thief overall is not all that useful. Sure if you position him right, the enemy is not immune to criticals and you got a ton of invis potions. But I've always found a pure basher like pala/fight/barb/monk whatever is more effective and most of all has a lot more survivability.

    So for me FMT is not only a great PC while there are stronger PC builds then FMT unless you go with no xp limit atleast when it comes to early/mid game, the fact that it opens up and let's me remove a thief from the party is very useful. Dont get me wrong though I love some of the thief NPC's though in truth I've pretty much used Imoen 99% of my playtime. The game becomes much easier without a thief. Atleast that is with how I play the game and what I've found in all my highest difficulty games together with all the mods that increase difficulty.

    The 99% is for BG1 in BG2 it's pretty much 50/50 between her and Jansen simply because Imoen is nostalgia Jansen is pure fun :smiley:

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 13,884
    Also, don't forget that a FMT and a FMC can summon a familiar at the lvl 1, thus getting addtional HPs, while a F/T and a F/C can't do that (for a F/T a familiar becomes a possibility only after reaching HLAs).

    GoturalRAM021Proont
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,199
    And you can summon your familiar an additional time in SoA and ToB for even more HP!

    JuliusBorisovSkatanlolien
  • thelovebatthelovebat Member Posts: 204
    edited March 2016
    Hudzy said:
    I think my biggest issue with FMC is the stat roll. No such issue with FMT at least.

    My biggest issue with F/M/C is probably that with Fighter/Mage/Thief the disadvantages of Mage & Thief already kind of overlap, not being that big of an issue with the spellcasting of a Mage.  Compared to Fighter/Mage/Cleric, where the synergy definitely isn't there with all 3 combined.

    Fighter/Mage is good cus no weapon restrictions and spellcasting helps with lack of heavy armor, and can use any ranged weapons (or armor) you want when not flinging around spells.  Fighter/Cleric is good cus you can wear all the armor you want plus Cleric buffing spells, and there are some nice blunt weapon options for melee to go well with that.  Cleric/Mage is good cus you'll just get a bunch of spellcasting ability and won't have to worry about entering the fray of combat, so losing the Cleric bonus of wearing any armor you want doesn't matter too much (can still use shields though), and the weapon restrictions don't matter here either.  Not to mention with Cleric/Mage & Fighter/Mage, you can be a Gnome who gets to be an Illusionist, so a Cleric/Illusionist gets a crapton of spellcasting for example.

    Combine the 3 together though, and you have someone who's restricted to robes for armor, blunt weapons (meaning only slings for ranged combat), slower level progression, a character having to decide between casting a bevvy of spells from two spellbooks or going in and attacking with their Fighter skills, a limited number of equipment slots for class specific equipment for 3 different classes, and without modding you can only be a Fighter/Mage/Cleric as a Half Elf who don't get the same cool advantages other races may get.  It's for a number of reasons I'd prefer having a Fighter/Mage/Thief instead of a Fighter/Mage/Cleric, you'll need some thieving skills in your party at some point unless you really know what you're doing with dungeons and traps, and you'd be trading the high level abilities of a Thief for having access to both Mage and Cleric defensive/buffing spells, which is probably a bit more than you'd need for a single character when a Fighter/Cleric getting to wear armor is probably a choice that is more convenient for the long haul (worn armor gets the nice little AC modifiers from the armor type that magical armor doesn't).

    In the 2nd game access to the top tier spells I think may be another thing to look at cus of splitting experience between 3 classes, but at least with Fighter/Mage/Thief you'd be able to do Thief things and have more versatility with your weapons to compensate.

    SkatanQuartzProont
  • thelovebatthelovebat Member Posts: 204
    I did enjoy my past co-op play through with my brother as FMT and FMC without a party. Good old days. But then I also always felt like 2 options was at least one too few. I wanted (and still would!) there to be a MCT as well.

    :smiley: Think of all the utility... :smile: 
    I can't remember exactly, but I think a Fighter/Cleric/Thief combo existed at one time.  Bad combination for a triple class, but I think it was a thing at some point.

    justfeelinathomeRAM021Proont
  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 418
    i don't like triple.
    -elf's are scrawny
    - thief levels after 6 just hog XP(locks/traps) you don't need sneak you have invisibility  .. you already got the next best thing to UAI, and opening up with a backstab while having the option just to throw a Spell is meh..(expect you want to trap cheese but then you don't need a mage or a fighter)
    - same for the fighter part , who reaches his peak at 13 and then is another XP Hog..
    -your mage gets weight down by the other classes , slow progression and abysmal casterlevels most of the game , and a single lvl 9 spell in the very end and don't you come me with "but if you remove the xp cap its the most powerful blah blah blah" or i will smack you with a very thin Newspaper !

    all in all if i play a mage i want it to be enhanced , not watered down , and for sure not watered down TWICE.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 5,179
    @DevardKrown Obviously if you're playing your FM (T) like a mage you're doing it wrong.

    ThacoBellQuartz
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,591
    edited March 2016
    I did enjoy my past co-op play through with my brother as FMT and FMC without a party. Good old days. But then I also always felt like 2 options was at least one too few. I wanted (and still would!) there to be a MCT as well.

    :smiley: Think of all the utility... :smile: 
    I can't remember exactly, but I think a Fighter/Cleric/Thief combo existed at one time.  Bad combination for a triple class, but I think it was a thing at some point.
    Not in the BG series (nor in 2nd edition in general as far as I'm aware).

    Quartz
  • BarksleyBarksley Member Posts: 2
    I have played this game since it originally came out, and have played all classes and variants. The funniest character I ever played was a half-eleven neutral evil F\M\T. That dude could do it all, and did. He did my first solo run of BG II.

    In honor of the SoD coming out, I decided to solo him through BG:EE. It was tough, but I did it, killing all of the major bosses using what he could do and what was available. I killed Saravok by provoking him out with stinking clouds, webs and a scroll of cloud kill, then used a wand of monster summoning to surround him past the Bhaal symbol. A couple of invisibility potions, a potion of Storm Giant strength, potion of power, and a few back stabs with the +3 short sword and he was down. It seemed far less complicated then trying to coordinate and keep alive a bunch of NPCs.

    Multiclass characters rock.

    JuliusBorisovFinneousPJRAM021Proont
  • prairiechickenprairiechicken Member Posts: 143
    edited March 2016
    Shows how overpowered multiclasses (and mages, though it is a problem of bg series and with no DM) are in 2e

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