The Ultimate Temptation Test: My diabolical idea for a Carsomyr/Pale Justice type weapon
booinyoureyes
Member Posts: 6,164
Imagine the most powerful weapon in the entire game. A sword that can cut through evil like nothing else on Faerun. A true weapon of justice.
Such a majestic holy armament would require a huge quest to attain it. You would have to accomplish great deeds and pass many tests.
But then, at the end, you are required to finish one last trial: do something heinously evil. A thing that keeps children up at night. You have to weigh the benefits of what you can do with such a powerful weapon with the sheer depravity of the act you have to perform.
But here is the catch: unknown to the player, the act is so despicable and so unholy that it would cause any paladin to fall immediately upon its completion, rendering them unable to wield this weapon that is reserved solely for the most honorable among us. It will still sell for a ton with the right buyer, but nobody who could ever obtain such an item of great power would ever be able to use it.
It is the ultimate test for a paladin: they must sacrifice great power, one of the biggest temptations for any adventurer with the goal of doing good and improving their world, in order to maintain their honor. If you can resist then you are what a paladin is meant to be: a disciplined agent of righteousness. But only if you cast Excalibur back into the lake.
WWKD? (What would Keldorn do?)
Such a majestic holy armament would require a huge quest to attain it. You would have to accomplish great deeds and pass many tests.
But then, at the end, you are required to finish one last trial: do something heinously evil. A thing that keeps children up at night. You have to weigh the benefits of what you can do with such a powerful weapon with the sheer depravity of the act you have to perform.
But here is the catch: unknown to the player, the act is so despicable and so unholy that it would cause any paladin to fall immediately upon its completion, rendering them unable to wield this weapon that is reserved solely for the most honorable among us. It will still sell for a ton with the right buyer, but nobody who could ever obtain such an item of great power would ever be able to use it.
It is the ultimate test for a paladin: they must sacrifice great power, one of the biggest temptations for any adventurer with the goal of doing good and improving their world, in order to maintain their honor. If you can resist then you are what a paladin is meant to be: a disciplined agent of righteousness. But only if you cast Excalibur back into the lake.
WWKD? (What would Keldorn do?)
Post edited by booinyoureyes on
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Comments
BUT
A thief with Use Any Item could backstab the fallen paladin and use the Mega Power Justice Sword.
Keldorn would resist the temptation for sure. Too old and wise (i mean for a paladin)
CHARNAME, on the other hand, would nod, do the unforgivable, and get the ubersword.
True heroism isn't just about doing what's comfortable, about doing what doesn't compromise your morals. True heroism is doing the vile, unforgivable thing because that's what needs to be done for the greater good.
So drain the lake, kill the lady of the lake and pry Excalibur from her cold, dead fingers before burning down Camelot with the Pendragon family line trapped within. Infuse the blade with their innocent souls and seal them in by stabbing Merlin through the back.
And then hand the sword to the next ignorant farmboy you see. Let them go and be uncomplicated, let them save the world, beloved by all and burning with youthful notions of "truth", "justice" and "honour".
And you, abandoned by everyone who ever loved you, forsaken by your god, and reviled by the entire world as a villain, just stick to the shadows and wait for the day when you have to do it all over again so someone else doesn't have to.
That's what a true paladin should be.
And also to give 5dmg of each elemental type / round to thieves that weld it, that is wicked
From an RP perspective, this sounds mildly intriguing, but also a little too contrived. You go on a quest for the holiest of holies and the last step is "now eat a baby"? Riiiiight, nothing at all fishy there. If anything, you'd have to be on a quest of highly ambiguous tasks that are never obviously black or white, forcing you into difficult moral choices with real, harsh consequences every step of the way - until you get to a point where you can't tell what's what anymore and really, really, REALLY have to dig hard and deep to see within yourself whether that last right step is going down a wrong path or not. Writing that: challenge level 11/10. Implementing that in the game? Probably impossible.
And if the thieve keep for himself the weapon and equip it the elemental damages kill him.
But you are true, is always possible to fool the game. Also with my modification to the weapon is possible in multiplayer to import a second pally, let him complete the quest and fall, and then drop him and give the weapon to the true not fallen one.
Too early unbalance, too late well, is too late....
Like a child that dream about a toy and when he finally get it is almost a teenager and start to think at completely different things.
I really don't see a place for an uber weapon in the game.
I would prefer a celestial fury and a FoA that start less powerful, maybe as plain +3 weapons, and are upgraded many times, after chap 2, before SoA last battle, end of WK and reach the full power after Yaga so you can use them fully upgraded for a little more then a couple of quests.
And adding more weapons of this kind, so there is a real alternative between maces clubs and flails and you don't have to choose GM in bastard swords because you know that after a long long time of sub optimal ones in the end......
For that reason, weapons are also in a tight spot, like the conundrum you mentioned of the late ToB weapons essentially being of far less relative power because you're already super powerful.
I think part of that also has to do with the lack of a clear progression curve for weapons. In most "modern" games, you'd go through something very streamlined like +1/+2 weapons in the early game, +3 in the midgame, +4 in late SoA, and +5 exclusively in ToB. But the reality of BG is that you can get +5 weapons in the early game, including some that are top5-in-the-game material (like Carsomyr). That messes with relative powerlevels considerably.
Personally, I like the idea of iterative upgrades, improving step by step. Shortcuts are also interesting, if used sparingly. Having a deeper item upgrade system would certainly be a solution, but it would require a lot of work. Something that already exists and SORT OF tries to establish at least a bit better progression curve is the Item Revisions mod. While you can still get unreasonably strong weapons very early there, it's a much flatter power curve overall, and a smoother progression. I think that's a fair compromise.
BG is an old game and can't be overhauled down to every last detail, at least not without losing too much of its appeal. For that reason I think that while a super-powerful quest weapon would be interesting and cool, it would always feel a bit at odds with the game. Though of course I never exclude the chance of being surprised by some amazing modder
For greed, envy and lust are sins
but charity, sacrifice and love are not.
About the lot of work I am not so sure about it, but I am not a modder.
but there are not so many weapon types in the game, take a named one of each type available in chap 2 and coding the 3-5 versions depending on how much upgrades is really fast, I can do it little time with my minimal knowledge. Is just take the previous version, change enchantment and related damage and/or add an effect and change weapon name and description.
Then create key items for each upgrade level and give them as loot to monsters you can access only at the appropriate upgrade moment. Could be interesting to make only 4-6 usable for each upgradable weapon, so the party can upgrade only 4-6 ones, but of the type wanted for that run, so the number of uber weapons will be limited.
And then Cromwell and the imp has to be coded with the correct dialogue options.
The uber weapons of WK and TOB have to be heavily nerfed because the new mask will be arakbane, the new ravager will be the halbert you find in firky dungeon and so on.
Not much more work than item upgrade I think. If modders produce full new quests with new areas, battle scripts and plot dialogues I think that this is nothing in comparison.
In the end there will be the same number of op weapons than now, but will be possible to have them in chap 2, of the type you like and chap2 power and upgrade them in steps until half tob where they reach full power.
I would leave untouched the pally and the ranged ones and the snt.
OKAY FINE
You cannot hand it off and if it changes possession then it returns to its original place.
To get the ultimate sword you need to make a sacrifice!
Cut off your hands!
...
Yeah! That would be a less trivial and a far simpler moral maze.
1- the final quest is refused in principle;
2- the final quest is done but the result is useless, as the sword is unusable by all means.
The real question is: what's the meaning of all this? Would be that a test of sort created by a God/Demon/Powerful Entity to test a human hearth? There is a kind of deeper lesson that it will be taught depending on the outcome?
EDIT: I personally think that Keldorn will refuse to do such an evil deed to achieve a weapon, even if he doesn't know what would happen if he would choose to do it.
As it is a quest that is done accomplishing good deeds, for a good reward, a powerful sword to better fight the evil.
But the real test, hidden to both the pally and the player, is the last evil deed.
Because, as old uncle Mohandas often told, there is no difference from means and results, if you sow a seed of apple tree you will never obtain pears.
The good and wise pally (or the player that RP well a paladin) know this so refuse the last deed and wins.
The one who accept the last deed think that he is winning, but loose, he fall and have a powerful sword that he can not utilize.
Depending if the quest is given by his God (in disguise) or by a Demon a different ending has to be set.
If the God give it a +1 WIS can be given to the pally as reward from the God, both the real test and the real reward was hidden to the pally and the player.
If a Demon give it no reward is given, the goal of the Demon was only to see the paly fall, not falling and being true to his goodness is enough reward for the pally, as the evil has suffered a defeat.
But the sword has to be not useful both for a pally (who fall getting it and so can not equip it) and a thief (if he equip it he die) to make the plot work, other way is just a joke to the player imo with no sense at all outside giving a too OP and unbalancing item from a mod (and may be there is enough right now...) at the price of a less useful NPC.
If the God give it a +1 WIS can be given to the pally as reward from the God, both the real test and the real reward was hidden to the pally and the player.
If a Demon give it no reward is given, the goal of the Demon was only to see the paly fall, not falling and being true to his goodness is enough reward for the pally, as the evil has suffered a defeat."
This was actually my resolution, but I was withholding it until someone brought up the issues of reward. It was to be a very Sir Gawain and the Green Knight tale.
He gets the cool sword, but a bonus quest (read XP) to further his smiting ways.
Perhaps you could write this quest as an option for the paladin to fall and have all of his levels transferred to blackguard so that he can use the weapon as an evil weapon, not a good weapon. That is how some blackguards are made in D&D. There would be no option to atone. You would have to make the sword useable only by evil people, only by blackguards.
The demon comes to the paladin in disguise and tells him about this holy weapon that only a paladin can wield. He then sends him on all these holy and righteous quests until he gets to the last one. The last quest is very evil. The demon wants the paladin to submit to become evil and wield the evil sword. but he tells him that the only way he can get the powerful "holy" (spoiler: unholy) sword is by committing this evil act. Then it becomes more of a temptation for the paladin: do I choose to hold true to my beliefs even though I won't get this sword and this whole quest is for nothing? Or do I commit this evil act I n the name of "greater good", and obviously this "holy" angel or avatar thinks it's good, so I should be ok, right?
Then he chooses "greater good", does the evil act, and the demon reveals himself, that he tricked him. "The sword was evil all along and now you are a servant of evil!! Haha!! You been serving me all this time, and now you will serve me for the rest of your life!! You wanted power, now you have it!! Muahahahahahaha!!"
If he chooses the good path, then his gos could give him some sort of reward--a boost to some ability stat would be appropriate, or perhaps an additional spell or powerful ability. That would be more in line with how the god would operate: ability over material things. A sword can be taken or stolen, but personal strength can't be.
You would have to decide if the demon would be fought by the paladin if good was chosen. Is he demon enraged that he didn't succeed? Or does he lie in wait for his next victim, patient and brooding? Does the paladin know that he was deceived? If so, does the opportunity to kill the demon even present itself?
The idea leaves for a lot of interesting role-playing choices. I don't think a paladin could/should get a holy sword by doing evil, and I don't think that a demon would willingly give up such a sword even if he did get a paladin to fall--he would just say something like, haha tricked you! No good god would required evil to get a powerful weapon. Maybe only a true neutral god would, but he probably wouldn't trick the paladin in the beginning, unless he was also an insane god. In that case, it would be just kind of a strange thing to do that would certainly upset the balance somewhere. The only person that I could think of doing something you suggest would be either a ghost tortured into insanity in life, or perhaps some insane wizard, both of which would have to be either nuetral or CN.
Keldorn would not choose the evil path for the sake of a weapon.
To sell the tale, best that the final evil task be presented as a choice between the lesser of two evils (where the only right choice is to not participate at all). Let the PC choose which is the lesser, as it really does not matter at that point, and place a clear peril for not choosing as well - so the Paladin is truly torn on what to do, but be sure to give a satisfying pay-off (story-wise) after putting them in that position. No-one wants another indoctrination ending to their quest line
Of course I would not leave the player unrewarded. Paladins that overcame the temptation would gain points in charisma or an extra smite evil/day. Plus lots of
The tester was either going to be a demon who wished to make paladins fall by tempting them into evil, or a god that wished to test his followers.
The purpose was to be a wager between those two factions to see if the paladin was true to his or her patron deity.
Our game is unique in that I used the Greek, Norse and Egyptian gods as the deities. In my world Arete (the Greek goddess of honor) would represent the "Goddess of Paladins" role that Torm (or was it Tyr?) has in the Forgotten Realms. The temptation side was either going to be a demon (who are huge characters in this world) or Loki (the Norse god of trickery).
Thanks for giving me a test run, and please continue!
I am still thinking of what the result should be if the paladin failed the test, aside from falling.
I didn't realize this was for a D&D group. I thought it was for a baldurs gate quest mod, which could introduce a fun way to turn your righteous paladin into an aerie/keldorn/anomen killing betrayer. There are lots of people that use evil PCs for their playthroughs.
Since this is for a playgroup, I recommend using your gut. What is the person playing the paladin like? Is he very attached to his character? Or is he just there for the Doritos and friend-time? New players who don't understand all the nuances of the game can be a mixed bag--they might love it, or be completely confused by it. "Hey, I thought he was supposed to be the good guy...?" It could be very rewarding and fun, or just end up confusing or upsetting them, especially if the evil act at the end is too "adult". I consider myself an experienced gamer, and I don't like adult themes in my D&D games. But, losing characters is part of the game and everyone has to learn that eventually. Either you lose them to victory or defeat, you lose them somehow.
You could speak with the player privately and tell him your idea. That would give him the chance to role-play a paladin that is slowly, over he course of the quest, becoming obsessed over the draw of this powerful weapon. The player will feel special because he knows something that the other players don't know about the quest, which could help compensate for making his character the bad guy. It could help him to lose some of his attachment to the character gradually rather than all at once, and even be excited about his new character. It will also give him the chance to save face by not throwing a hissy-fit when you essentially kill off his character. It is more realistic for the paladin to fall slowly to the temptation of this new weapon rather than suddenly he is a blackguard (although that is still a viable option--a former paladin enslaved by the lure of a powerful weapon and a demon to be a blackguard is a pretty cool idea).
This will also introduce the chance for the OTHER players to recognize the hints that they are actually working for a demon while the paladin pc pretends to be blind to the whole thing, or his CHARACTER pretends to be blind to the whole thing when in fact he is slowly being seduced by the power that he wants but is trying to deny to his temptation to his companions, but knows from the hints and from deep down inside that he is slowly going over to evil. After speaking to him, you could even have a one-on-one session with his character where the demon comes to him in a dream or something and tries to seduce him to evil--this could create a realistic in-game scenario where the paladin knows what he's doing is wrong, but wants to keep it a secret from his companions. He is justifying all the parts of the quest leading up to the end because he's "not actually doing anything bad"...yet. He is capable of being saved until after the very last choice, where he commits that evil act and falls forever to darkness.
Something like this would probably take an experienced player to pull off in a fun way, or at least a good actor. He would also have to be pretty mature about the whole thing.
I personally love playing secret characters, or having my DM twist the plot around on me. I don't mind having my characters die as long as it makes sense to me. Unfortunately not all players feel this way. It is one of the most difficult things for me as a DM and as a player when another player feels sad about the death of his character, or loses his cool. It's embarrassing for everyone, and takes the fun out of the game. You have to really think about these kind of twists in your plot. The advantage of knowing your players will serve you as you make this decision. Communication is key. Above all, you don't want to "force" your players into something they definitely don't want.
Because this affects your friend's character in such a profound way, he should be a part of it. Have you started the game yet? Talking with him in advance of the campaign could help your PC understand what you are trying to create, but it isn't entirely necessary. You could even roll up his second character and introduce him to the PC's during the course of their adventures as a helpful benefactor npc. That way he has a character that is ready to go as soon as the paladin falls to darkness, who may even walk into the room right as it happens to help the other pcs escape.
Honestly, I have thought about a plot twist like this before. But I have never found anyone who I think I could play it with. My players are often too attached to their characters. I don't have any DM around that is interested in a game like this (I haven't played since I moved to my new home, either). I kind of wish that I could play as this paladin in your world, I would find it a ton of fun choosing evil at the end and trying to role-play this character as he slowly succumbs to his temptation. I probably wouldn't even tell you my decision to let my character fall or not until I make the decision, just to keep everyone second-guessing.
So, considering all the inputs in this discussion a possible way is having a Demon, disguised as a God, offering the quest. His goal is to have the paladin fall, change alignment and become a servant of evil.
At the point of the quest where the evil deed is given the pally can figure out that something is strange and refuse because he refuse evil even if given as deed by a god, or check the God alignment. But the player must not know your plot, he has 2 ways of figure it out, using his spell or using a proper RP for a pally.
If the player don't RP good and/or don't check the God Is turned evil and blackguard (or better only fallen paladin with an OP weapon, usable).
If the player RP good and refuse the last evil deed there is an intervention of the real God that kill the demon, or order to the pally to do so, and grant him with a as much beneficial reward. It can be +1 to STR CON and WIS. And the weapon is not usable by the pally.
Only the DM and in the game the Demon and the God, know the real plot. The god intervene late because even if he know everything from the beginning let to the pally the choice.
The change of alignment must happen at the moment that the evil deed is done, and not equipping the weapon other way the pally can get the sword from the Demon, chose to not equip it, get the bonus from the real God and only then equip it, and stat rising and uberweapon against the cons of falling is not balanced.
I remember a LARP game I played back way back in university. I was notoriously enthusiastic, but bad at the game, and it took me most of 3 years to get a character past 1st level (which involved surviving exactly one day of gaming!) By this time, most folks had 3 or more characters at maximum level, my first character had finally made it to 4th, and was joint-highest level PC on the day, a natural leader! The game plot was an old trope that I had not met before - death was trapped so the natural order broken, and nothing was dying anymore (yay - could not die on this adventure!) There was only one way to screw up on the day, as we discovered when we finally released Death and the GM asked "OK, who hasn't healed themselves back to a positive life total yet?" Oops, that would be the whole party then! Rather than force a total-party-wipeout, the DM quickly decided that after helping Death out like this, just once, he might stay his hand, if we so chose, Naturally, as a viking who had died valiantly in battle, I was opting to stay dead, even at the cost of my only character to make it past 1st! The DM, clearly upset at the thought of killing my only ever character, changed rules again and said the whole party must vote, the same fate for all! At this point, the other experience player agreed that we had had a good life, and rules are rules, and we were due to go to our afterlife. Two other new gamers immediately voted 'life' without thinking - it was all about winning the game. That left the deciding vote with another new gamer, who knew instinctively he wanted to vote for life, but could not work out why the experienced gamers were opting for death, maybe we knew some super-sekrit power-up would come from voting this way? Two seriously agonized newbies were trying everything in their power, in-game and out, to persuade him to vote the 'right' way, while everyone else looked on, amused ;~) [In the end he could not work out our angle, so voted "life, whatever..."]