@killeah So let's agree to disagree. Multiple kits are no more game breaking to me than adjusting your rolled stats to match the minimum requirements of a class/kit in character creation. That's one of the reasons Paladins, for instance, were so rare back in the days. The 17 charisma was a killer to get
Some reasons I'd vote to let dualies pick up a kit in their second class:
1.) It's a hard core career change. Career changes are not always planned and you're basically starting over from the beginning. Why should it be any more restrictive then single classing? The only penalty should be that your previous experience was in an unrelated field (harder to get jobs, let me tell you).
2.) Try explaining to someone who's not familiar with 2nd ED D&D rules why they can't take a kit. Doesn't sound like much of an argument but actually think that conversation through... If you manage a good explanation, yet me know! Anyhow, 2nd ED D&D rules are already too weird for "green dice," as I call them.
3.) The racist argument! Humans should be special; short-lived, diverse, adaptive. Just seems like the type of option that humans should get.
I suppose I wouldn't be too broken about it however it works out. At least let me dual to a specialist wizard if nothing else!
@killeah So let's agree to disagree. Multiple kits are no more game breaking to me than adjusting your rolled stats to match the minimum requirements of a class/kit in character creation. That's one of the reasons Paladins, for instance, were so rare back in the days. The 17 charisma was a killer to get
Indeed one of the worst BG'ism to date - Char creation should have been :
1. Roll stats -
2. Choose Class -
I never did understand why they didn't went on like that, creating a set of stats that could be used to "unlock" the class you wanted - i.e put 17 in CHA.
And obviously, doing two bad things to the rules is double as bad as just one.
I still think the BG - 2nd E conversion is one of the better though
Your options aren't very thought-out. If you make a poll, you should strive to create options that cover all grounds, not just the ones you fancy or oppose.
For want of anyting better, I opted for 'leave the system intact'. There's only one problem: there's no 'the system'. As for multi-classes, all current systems agree: multi-classing is a specialism of it's own and can't be combined with a kit (except for the gnomes, who can only be illusionists if they're (part) mage.
As for dual-class, there's three 'the system'-s:
There's BG1: no kits, though dual-classers can choose to become a specialist mage, There's BG2: only kits for the first class if you opt for dual-classing. PnP 2nd edition AD&D (as mentioned by @Killeah): a dual-classed character can have ONE kit, either in the first OR in the second class.
I'm all for the last option, if dev-time allows it: either a kit in the first class OR in the second.
You can have Kensai-Mages, like in BG2, you can have Fighter-Assassins, like many people create with Shadowkeeper, but you can't have a Kensai-Specialist Mage or Kensai-Assassin, it would become too overpowered.
Re: the poll: I created all the options I knew of at the time. Not just the ones I liked (or didn't like). To expect every poll to be perfectly inclusive of everything is a little unrealistic, people will always want to give more specific answers. The real goal of this thread was not the poll, but to foster a discussion about multi- and dual-classing. Judging by your detailed response, it did just that.
Dual-class characters having one kit is a change I think a lot of people (including myself) support.
Re: the poll: I created all the options I knew of at the time. Not just the ones I liked (or didn't like). To expect every poll to be perfectly inclusive of everything is a little unrealistic, people will always want to give more specific answers. The real goal of this thread was not the poll, but to foster a discussion about multi- and dual-classing. Judging by your detailed response, it did just that.
thanks for the elabaration. Sorry, I was a bit spoiled by the poll about gay romance by @Shandyr, where he/she tried to put 10 nuances into the poll and a bit edgy as well last night (about gay romances as well).
*edit: i feel a bit like 'the best sailors stand on the shore', I never created a poll myself yet am complaining - is this a saying in the english language as well? It's a nice Dutch one.
*edit: i feel a bit like 'the best sailors stand on the shore', I never created a poll myself yet am complaining - is this a saying in the english language as well?
*edit: i feel a bit like 'the best sailors stand on the shore', I never created a poll myself yet am complaining - is this a saying in the english language as well? It's a nice Dutch one.
Can you post the idiom in Dutch? I've never heard this before & think it's amazing. Totally something I'll use out here in the US.
But only if first class is not a kit. I always dualled Imoen to a Specialist Mage in BG1. It would be fun to have a vanilla Fighter dualled to an Assassin, Swashbuckler, Specialist Mage or Cleric kit.
Separately, I would also like to see more dual/multi class options (I know sounds a little 3E). Allow the Barbarian, Monk, Bard, Paladin and Sorcerer some sort of combinations. The Sorcerer should certainly be allowed any Mage combo and the Barbarian should be allowed any fighter combo. And while we're at it, let's allow races to be more classes. It just makes sense to have an Elven Druid or Ranger, a Halfling Bard and Half-Orc Monk. OK, maybe not the Monk...
*edit: i feel a bit like 'the best sailors stand on the shore', I never created a poll myself yet am complaining - is this a saying in the english language as well? It's a nice Dutch one.
Can you post the idiom in Dutch? I've never heard this before & think it's amazing. Totally something I'll use out here in the US.
De beste stuurlui staan aan wal.
Actually, the translation of 'stuurlui' should be 'helmsmen' I think: the ones who do the steering on the ship.
*edit: i feel a bit like 'the best sailors stand on the shore', I never created a poll myself yet am complaining - is this a saying in the english language as well? It's a nice Dutch one.
Can you post the idiom in Dutch? I've never heard this before & think it's amazing. Totally something I'll use out here in the US.
De beste stuurlui staan aan wal.
Actually, the translation of 'stuurlui' should be 'helmsmen' I think: the ones who do the steering on the ship.
Awesome, thanks!
To answer your previous question, the closest American English equivalent might be "armchair quarterback," meaning someone who second guesses from a position of safety, without risk.
But only if first class is not a kit. I always dualled Imoen to a Specialist Mage in BG1. It would be fun to have a vanilla Fighter dualled to an Assassin, Swashbuckler, Specialist Mage or Cleric kit.
Separately, I would also like to see more dual/multi class options (I know sounds a little 3E). Allow the Barbarian, Monk, Bard, Paladin and Sorcerer some sort of combinations. The Sorcerer should certainly be allowed any Mage combo and the Barbarian should be allowed any fighter combo. And while we're at it, let's allow races to be more classes. It just makes sense to have an Elven Druid or Ranger, a Halfling Bard and Half-Orc Monk. OK, maybe not the Monk...
Actually I never understood why sorcerer can't multi/dual class. It's supposed to be a natural talent so what stops a fighter from suddenly realizing he can cast magic missiles?
*edit: i feel a bit like 'the best sailors stand on the shore', I never created a poll myself yet am complaining - is this a saying in the english language as well? It's a nice Dutch one.
Can you post the idiom in Dutch? I've never heard this before & think it's amazing. Totally something I'll use out here in the US.
De beste stuurlui staan aan wal.
Actually, the translation of 'stuurlui' should be 'helmsmen' I think: the ones who do the steering on the ship.
Awesome, thanks!
To answer your previous question, the closest American English equivalent might be "armchair quarterback," meaning someone who second guesses from a position of safety, without risk.
Or "backseat driver." That's someone who sits in the backseat of the car and tells the driver how he should drive.
You know, I know it's off topic, but one of the coolest things about BG is that it has fans across the world...speaking in many different languages....from many different cultures. I'm definitely going to use this expression at some point, ha ha.
What I'd like to see for dual classes isn't kits for the second class but rather being able to dual class into and out of more classes. What's wrong with having a dual class bard? Or being able to dual class between Druid and Wizard?
Honestly, I'd love the option to play as a Kensassin, just because it'd be awesome on my character page. But I think at the bare minimum everyone should be allowed a single kit - either the first or second in a Dual-Class or one in a Multiclass.
I don't get why people are so against choices. I voted for access to as many kits as possible. This is not a PvP game people. Game balance between how I play it and how you play it doesn't matter one bit. Play it exactly the way you want to. Are people really incapable to control themselves and avoid combo's they feel are overpowered? I readily play a godchar with 25 in all stats and pew pew out his as* but other times I decide to challenge myself by going lowbie stats and I've even once done a playthrough without loading. That is difficult I might add.
Thinking about this again, multiclass with kits, or second dual class kits would be far too OP.
I'm thinking of a Fighter or Mage / Assassin or Swashbuckler dual class here - one gets x7 backstage and +1 weapon rolls, the other would get -5 AC and +4 weapon rolls on top of HLAs for both classes.
Dual classing a level 9 fighter to an assassin would be OTT powerful. The idea with high level kits should remain a reward for single class characters. Sure you can dual class from a kit, but that's really only powerful in BG2 with the super XP cap, BG1s XP cap doesn't really allow for much flexibility.
Leave as... Multi Class is more powerful than single class. The xp is the only thing slowing them down. Two kits dual class! No. You will make things to easy... Everyone will be Kensia/wildmages...
Plan on doing that anyway when an editor comes out, why not skip the middle man and just let us do that.
Theres a bug I recently found in the game with ranger kits multiclassing.
Ranger / Cleric is a valid multi class. In all other professions, you can dual from any kit to a second valid multiclass.
Archers and Stalkers cannot dual to a Cleric. Apparently I read that in SoA they could, but in ToB they cant.
But you might ask, why would you want to dual to a Cleric from a Stalker or Archer?
Ranger / Cleric multiclasses gain access to druid spells as well. Stalkers are all round better for this purpose than a plain ranger, they have no weapon restrictions like beastmasters, they gain 3x backstab at level 9-13 (the common levels to dual from), at level 12 they gain 3 mage spells including haste, and they gain a bonus to their stealth ability. The drawback of not being able to wear more than studded leather would be removed after dualing to a Cleric.
Why an Archer? 2 points in slings + called shot with Archer bonuses = much more powerful backline Cleric. Both builds would be interesting, if rather strange, and they should be valid options anyway.
I've always wondered why Stalker and Archers can't dual-class. My assumption is, they would be overpowered and that's why the old dev team ruled them out. However, the manual says: Characters not allowed dual-class status include paladins, rangers, and druids." (SOA manual page 19, 'CHARACTER RECORD AND ASSOCIATED SCREENS'). So it *could* be called a bug plain-class and Beastmaster rangers *can* dual.
I wouldn't take the manual as the holy grail on such a rule if ranger / cleric multiclasses have been allowed since the start of the game.
I would like to be able to dual from a plain 9-13 fighter into any valid kit for my second class - Assassin, swashbuckler, shapeshifter, avenger, or any of the specialist clerics.
When it comes to druids and clerics, a 9 fighter / divine character only gains a mere additional 12 hit points, however they can also pick up grandmastery prior to dual classing, and more attacks per round. At maximum level both a plain druid or cleric have the same base thaco as a multi passed fighter / divine, but they lack weapon mastery and only have 1 attack per round. Clerics can buff themselves into strong fighters, but Druids can't, though they get powerful shape changes, and could potentially use the extra attacks, especially shapeshifters in greater werewolf form.
Did anyone hear any official word on this, by the way? At the very least, it could be considered a 'bug' if you can't dual-class into a specialist mage in BGEE, since BG allowed it.
I would even say create some interference between classes when dual classing.
For instance it's not because your thief is smart enough to be able to use anything that it should reduce some restrictions for instance Kensai specific focus that implies not wearing an armor. Or at least not the heaviest ones.
Comments
1.) It's a hard core career change. Career changes are not always planned and you're basically starting over from the beginning. Why should it be any more restrictive then single classing? The only penalty should be that your previous experience was in an unrelated field (harder to get jobs, let me tell you).
2.) Try explaining to someone who's not familiar with 2nd ED D&D rules why they can't take a kit. Doesn't sound like much of an argument but actually think that conversation through... If you manage a good explanation, yet me know! Anyhow, 2nd ED D&D rules are already too weird for "green dice," as I call them.
3.) The racist argument! Humans should be special; short-lived, diverse, adaptive. Just seems like the type of option that humans should get.
I suppose I wouldn't be too broken about it however it works out. At least let me dual to a specialist wizard if nothing else!
1. Roll stats -
2. Choose Class -
I never did understand why they didn't went on like that, creating a set of stats that could be used to "unlock" the class you wanted - i.e put 17 in CHA.
And obviously, doing two bad things to the rules is double as bad as just one.
I still think the BG - 2nd E conversion is one of the better though
No kits for multi and dualclass.
No more OP multiclass combinations !
For want of anyting better, I opted for 'leave the system intact'. There's only one problem: there's no 'the system'. As for multi-classes, all current systems agree: multi-classing is a specialism of it's own and can't be combined with a kit (except for the gnomes, who can only be illusionists if they're (part) mage.
As for dual-class, there's three 'the system'-s:
There's BG1: no kits, though dual-classers can choose to become a specialist mage,
There's BG2: only kits for the first class if you opt for dual-classing.
PnP 2nd edition AD&D (as mentioned by @Killeah): a dual-classed character can have ONE kit, either in the first OR in the second class.
I'm all for the last option, if dev-time allows it: either a kit in the first class OR in the second.
You can have Kensai-Mages, like in BG2, you can have Fighter-Assassins, like many people create with Shadowkeeper, but you can't have a Kensai-Specialist Mage or Kensai-Assassin, it would become too overpowered.
I created all the options I knew of at the time. Not just the ones I liked (or didn't like). To expect every poll to be perfectly inclusive of everything is a little unrealistic, people will always want to give more specific answers. The real goal of this thread was not the poll, but to foster a discussion about multi- and dual-classing. Judging by your detailed response, it did just that.
Dual-class characters having one kit is a change I think a lot of people (including myself) support.
*edit: i feel a bit like 'the best sailors stand on the shore', I never created a poll myself yet am complaining - is this a saying in the english language as well? It's a nice Dutch one.
Separately, I would also like to see more dual/multi class options (I know sounds a little 3E). Allow the Barbarian, Monk, Bard, Paladin and Sorcerer some sort of combinations. The Sorcerer should certainly be allowed any Mage combo and the Barbarian should be allowed any fighter combo. And while we're at it, let's allow races to be more classes. It just makes sense to have an Elven Druid or Ranger, a Halfling Bard and Half-Orc Monk. OK, maybe not the Monk...
Actually, the translation of 'stuurlui' should be 'helmsmen' I think: the ones who do the steering on the ship.
To answer your previous question, the closest American English equivalent might be "armchair quarterback," meaning someone who second guesses from a position of safety, without risk.
Still, I want my Dual-Classed Kensassin.
I readily play a godchar with 25 in all stats and pew pew out his as* but other times I decide to challenge myself by going lowbie stats and I've even once done a playthrough without loading. That is difficult I might add.
I'm thinking of a Fighter or Mage / Assassin or Swashbuckler dual class here - one gets x7 backstage and +1 weapon rolls, the other would get -5 AC and +4 weapon rolls on top of HLAs for both classes.
Dual classing a level 9 fighter to an assassin would be OTT powerful. The idea with high level kits should remain a reward for single class characters. Sure you can dual class from a kit, but that's really only powerful in BG2 with the super XP cap, BG1s XP cap doesn't really allow for much flexibility.
Ranger / Cleric is a valid multi class. In all other professions, you can dual from any kit to a second valid multiclass.
Archers and Stalkers cannot dual to a Cleric. Apparently I read that in SoA they could, but in ToB they cant.
But you might ask, why would you want to dual to a Cleric from a Stalker or Archer?
Ranger / Cleric multiclasses gain access to druid spells as well. Stalkers are all round better for this purpose than a plain ranger, they have no weapon restrictions like beastmasters, they gain 3x backstab at level 9-13 (the common levels to dual from), at level 12 they gain 3 mage spells including haste, and they gain a bonus to their stealth ability. The drawback of not being able to wear more than studded leather would be removed after dualing to a Cleric.
Why an Archer? 2 points in slings + called shot with Archer bonuses = much more powerful backline Cleric. Both builds would be interesting, if rather strange, and they should be valid options anyway.
I would like to be able to dual from a plain 9-13 fighter into any valid kit for my second class - Assassin, swashbuckler, shapeshifter, avenger, or any of the specialist clerics.
When it comes to druids and clerics, a 9 fighter / divine character only gains a mere additional 12 hit points, however they can also pick up grandmastery prior to dual classing, and more attacks per round. At maximum level both a plain druid or cleric have the same base thaco as a multi passed fighter / divine, but they lack weapon mastery and only have 1 attack per round. Clerics can buff themselves into strong fighters, but Druids can't, though they get powerful shape changes, and could potentially use the extra attacks, especially shapeshifters in greater werewolf form.
In order to be as faithful as possible to the original game, it shall be authorized to dual to a mage kit in BGEE.
period.
For instance it's not because your thief is smart enough to be able to use anything that it should reduce some restrictions for instance Kensai specific focus that implies not wearing an armor. Or at least not the heaviest ones.