A Warrior's Tastes in Launchers
Tresset
Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
When I make a warrior type character who I plan to have use launcher weapons frequently I usually prefer to pick one of two weapons to put proficiency points into: Slings or Crossbows. What I really don't get about this is that it seems like a majority of people prefer to use longbows and shortbows instead. What confuses me further is that those who prefer longbows and shortbows seem to frequently say that crossbows stink. As for slings... I can't seem to recall hearing about anyone even discuss slings on a warrior. It baffles me that relatively few people seem to like these two weapons... I think they are quite awesome! I actually think longbows and shortbows are, while not terrible options, highly overrated and slightly inferior in most ways to slings and crossbows.
Crossbows are probably my favorite launcher weapons. They are all around solid options in both BG1 and BG2. In BG1 there are two respectable launchers: the Army Scythe and the Guide. The Army Scythe may be a bit lackluster in terms of THAC0 and damage output, but I think it makes up for it with the extra APR it gives. The Guide is incredibly accurate and can be really helpful for those hard to hit enemies. By swapping both of these crossbows depending on your situation your warrior is well prepared for just about anything. The ammo for the Crossbow, while not as wide ranging a selection as available for the longbow and shortbow, is still quite respectable. Bolts of Lightning are quite capable and plentiful, if a bit lackluster. Bolts of Biting are the real power ammo for the crossbow being both plentiful and possibly the most potent of poisons money can buy. Bolts +2 are the best for added accuracy, but are unfortunately quite limited in supply. In BG1 crossbows are a solid pick, but admittedly somewhat lacking when compared to longbows and shortbows; this changes in BG2 however. In BG2 there is no shortage of good crossbows to pick from, but there is only one crossbow that truly bears mentioning: Firetooth. I would almost say that Firetooth is the king of all launchers in the series. It has a huge THAC0 bonus, a huge damage bonus (including additional fire damage), unlimited ammo, and, as if that was not enough, it has an enchantment bonus high enough to hit just about anything. Just when you think you couldn't dream of more, Cespenar upgrades it to make it even better! The ammo you get in BG2 gets an upgrade as well. Thanks to the craftsmanship of various fish, you now have access to stunning bolts. The Paralytic Bolts of the Sahuagin, while in somewhat short supply, do more base damage than your typical bolt (1d10) and stun those they hit for 6 rounds unless they save vs. spell. The Kuo-Toa Bolts are very similar, but do even higher base damage (2d6) yet have a slightly shorter stun duration of about 3 rounds (actually 20 seconds, which is a tad longer) with the same save vs. spell to avoid. (There are some errors in the descriptions of these two bolts. What I say here is there actual function.) The only issue with the crossbow bolts in BG2 is that most of them only count as +1 weapons so many things are immune to them. If that isn't enough for you then how about using the pantaloon ammo? Things will die... Fast... Guaranteed...
Slings are probably the most underrated launcher. They are kinda boring for the most part in terms of added effects. They may not do much other than add THAC0 and damage, but they do that better than any other launcher. In BG1 there is only one sling really worth mentioning: Arla's Dragonbane. It is a mighty +3 sling. The bullets of choice would probably be +2 bullets. Slings are also the only launcher that get a strength bonus to damage. In BG2:EE all slings will now have the strength bonus to damage as well. There are 3 slings that I consider the best. The Sling of Everard's main claim to fame is its unlimited +5 ammo. It's high enchantment level is good for hitting creatures immune to lower enchantments, but it does much less damage than most of the other slings. The Lupine Sling is no joke. It may only be +2 but that disease effect it has is unique among slings and makes it worth keeping. The disease lasts 1 turn and slows those hit while doing 1 damage per round. The nice thing about this is there is no save vs. the disease meaning if you are lucky you can disable even the toughest of foes. Probably the best sling, however is Erinne Sling. It Is highly accurate and damaging, but its real strength is the +4 bullets it makes. The +4 bullets are the uniquely highest enchanted ammo out there. I know slings are almost completely bereft of versatility, but they have incredible raw accuracy and damage output which I think makes them more than viable throughout the entire series.
Make no mistake; I am not saying longbows and shortbows are bad. Far from it. In BG1 I would even say that they may very well be the best of the launchers. They have amazing versatility in terms of added effects, well beyond any of the other launchers. They can do lots of damage and are quite accurate. There are plenty of good launchers for them. They can even do things that no other launchers can do with such things as Arrows of Dispelling and Arrows of Detonation. They have a great APR too. The problem I have with them comes when BG2 comes around... In BG2 almost all their ammo suffers a mysterious nerf plague which makes the iron shortage of BG1 look like a joke. Bolts were affected to some extent too, but not nearly to the extent that arrows were, while bullets were completely unaffected. (I swear I will make a mod to reverse the mysterious ranged nerf plague of BG2. Some day...) The longbows and shortbows themselves are a bit questionable in BG2 as well. Among all launchers they alone suffer from the nerf plague. Bonuses to hit are plentiful but the bonuses to damage have mysteriously disappeared for the most part. Longbows are the only launchers ranged weapons without any unlimited ammo specimens at all! Shortbows are barely any better, but they are at least passable and Gesen's bow is quite good.
Eech... I made an unholy wall of text didn't I...
Crossbows are probably my favorite launcher weapons. They are all around solid options in both BG1 and BG2. In BG1 there are two respectable launchers: the Army Scythe and the Guide. The Army Scythe may be a bit lackluster in terms of THAC0 and damage output, but I think it makes up for it with the extra APR it gives. The Guide is incredibly accurate and can be really helpful for those hard to hit enemies. By swapping both of these crossbows depending on your situation your warrior is well prepared for just about anything. The ammo for the Crossbow, while not as wide ranging a selection as available for the longbow and shortbow, is still quite respectable. Bolts of Lightning are quite capable and plentiful, if a bit lackluster. Bolts of Biting are the real power ammo for the crossbow being both plentiful and possibly the most potent of poisons money can buy. Bolts +2 are the best for added accuracy, but are unfortunately quite limited in supply. In BG1 crossbows are a solid pick, but admittedly somewhat lacking when compared to longbows and shortbows; this changes in BG2 however. In BG2 there is no shortage of good crossbows to pick from, but there is only one crossbow that truly bears mentioning: Firetooth. I would almost say that Firetooth is the king of all launchers in the series. It has a huge THAC0 bonus, a huge damage bonus (including additional fire damage), unlimited ammo, and, as if that was not enough, it has an enchantment bonus high enough to hit just about anything. Just when you think you couldn't dream of more, Cespenar upgrades it to make it even better! The ammo you get in BG2 gets an upgrade as well. Thanks to the craftsmanship of various fish, you now have access to stunning bolts. The Paralytic Bolts of the Sahuagin, while in somewhat short supply, do more base damage than your typical bolt (1d10) and stun those they hit for 6 rounds unless they save vs. spell. The Kuo-Toa Bolts are very similar, but do even higher base damage (2d6) yet have a slightly shorter stun duration of about 3 rounds (actually 20 seconds, which is a tad longer) with the same save vs. spell to avoid. (There are some errors in the descriptions of these two bolts. What I say here is there actual function.) The only issue with the crossbow bolts in BG2 is that most of them only count as +1 weapons so many things are immune to them. If that isn't enough for you then how about using the pantaloon ammo? Things will die... Fast... Guaranteed...
Slings are probably the most underrated launcher. They are kinda boring for the most part in terms of added effects. They may not do much other than add THAC0 and damage, but they do that better than any other launcher. In BG1 there is only one sling really worth mentioning: Arla's Dragonbane. It is a mighty +3 sling. The bullets of choice would probably be +2 bullets. Slings are also the only launcher that get a strength bonus to damage. In BG2:EE all slings will now have the strength bonus to damage as well. There are 3 slings that I consider the best. The Sling of Everard's main claim to fame is its unlimited +5 ammo. It's high enchantment level is good for hitting creatures immune to lower enchantments, but it does much less damage than most of the other slings. The Lupine Sling is no joke. It may only be +2 but that disease effect it has is unique among slings and makes it worth keeping. The disease lasts 1 turn and slows those hit while doing 1 damage per round. The nice thing about this is there is no save vs. the disease meaning if you are lucky you can disable even the toughest of foes. Probably the best sling, however is Erinne Sling. It Is highly accurate and damaging, but its real strength is the +4 bullets it makes. The +4 bullets are the uniquely highest enchanted ammo out there. I know slings are almost completely bereft of versatility, but they have incredible raw accuracy and damage output which I think makes them more than viable throughout the entire series.
Make no mistake; I am not saying longbows and shortbows are bad. Far from it. In BG1 I would even say that they may very well be the best of the launchers. They have amazing versatility in terms of added effects, well beyond any of the other launchers. They can do lots of damage and are quite accurate. There are plenty of good launchers for them. They can even do things that no other launchers can do with such things as Arrows of Dispelling and Arrows of Detonation. They have a great APR too. The problem I have with them comes when BG2 comes around... In BG2 almost all their ammo suffers a mysterious nerf plague which makes the iron shortage of BG1 look like a joke. Bolts were affected to some extent too, but not nearly to the extent that arrows were, while bullets were completely unaffected. (I swear I will make a mod to reverse the mysterious ranged nerf plague of BG2. Some day...) The longbows and shortbows themselves are a bit questionable in BG2 as well. Among all launchers they alone suffer from the nerf plague. Bonuses to hit are plentiful but the bonuses to damage have mysteriously disappeared for the most part. Longbows are the only launchers ranged weapons without any unlimited ammo specimens at all! Shortbows are barely any better, but they are at least passable and Gesen's bow is quite good.
Eech... I made an unholy wall of text didn't I...
14
Comments
1) the easy 3 APR short bow at the start of BG2
2) arrows: of detonation, of dispelling, of piercing, not even saying about fire, ice and acid. When you face a certain enemy, you use certain arrows: there's nothing better than to dispel protections on a mage with an arrow of dispelling and then finish him with arrows of biting. Arrows of detonation work wonders on blackguards and assassins.
3) the variety of bows in BG2.
But mind you, I like crossbows from both the RP and in-game point of view, Firetooth and Army Scythe especially.
As for slings, they easily inflict the biggest damage if you're a some kind of a cleric/fighter - just Holy Power, DUHM and see how your sling deal amazing damage.
I also like throwing daggers, axes and a throwing hammer, especially when I'm playing a shorty.
In both western and eastern culture, the bow is considered a heroic weapon because it takes immense skill and talent to truly master. Many historical heroes are depicted wielding a bow, whilst crossbows and slings don't feature anywhere near as much. In the case of crossbows this was because it was seen as a dishonourable weapon that a peasant could pick up, aim and shoot to kill a skilled warrior with minimal training in the use of the weapon. In the case of the sling I guess it's because it is practically an inferior weapon compared to bow/crossbow, and hence wasn't actually used much after the ancient era.
History and culture has no doubt also shaped fantasy, which has created "cultural norms" of its own. Like when I think of an elf, I think bows, straight swords and spears, when I think dwarves, I think hammers, axes and crossbows (or firearms). Swords were considered the most "noble of weapons" in many cultures, and hence swords tend to be the most powerful weapons in many fantasy stories and games, including BG2, similarly bows feature heavily in many a heroic saga and that is reflected in fantasy games too.
(Probably one for the unpopular opinions thread, but it's *my* personal prejudice... probably based on a childhood as an English kid reading about Agincourt... But I can't really get past it.)
Crossbows? Pantaloons enthusiasts.
Real Warriors? Slings forever.
Nobody but a pure Fighter action hero (well, a pure fighter dualled into a cleric, ideally) can use slings the way they should be used, with Grand Mastery for the full 3+ APR. That's a 300% increase over the non-warrior classes who usually get handed the weapon and embarrass themselves (and for the record, shortbow Grand Mastery is only 100% better than a thief, so may as well let them use the fancy pants weapons to feel relevant).
It barely even matters which sling you use in terms of damage because with 20 strength you're packing in 10 minimum damage per shot with unenchanted sling and ammo before weapon mastery, so you might as well keep using the Lupine Sling (whose disease penetrates stoneskins, and possibly even PfMW if you use mundane ammo) and just use Erinne's sling to stockpile ammo for when you need it.
And best of all, your slinger gets to use a shield, like the Shield of Reflection, meaning that the only people that can even hurt them are the pesky magic users, and they'll be busy scratching at a rather personal rash.
I am like you when it comes to multiplayer games, especially if there's a PvP component. Like I used wands in Diablo 3 even though I thought that they looked ridiculous and I use axes in ESO even though aesthetically I prefer swords. But I am the opposite in singleplayer games.
In BG I pretty much never use slings for RP reasons. Most people give slings to melee warriors as a ranged option or mages as a backup weapon when spells are not needed or depleted, but slings actually take quite a lot of skill to use effectively, so I don't see how a mage will randomly know how to use one, and I also don't see how a sword+board warrior can use a sling without dropping at least the shield. Also alot of BG is spent in dungeons or other confined spaces, where it's just impractical to use a sling even if you were well trained to use one.
Firetooth, Everard and Erinne saved my back lots of times.
In all seriousness, in item revisions you can choose to reduce the rate of fire for bows. Instead of 2 attacks you get 1.5. That makes other ranged weapons on par with bows if not better (due to damage bonuses). I do not know whether it is the best solution but it is one solution that is quite alright to balance things out.
What were your thoughts for your mod doc?
Blasphemy!
I don't think weapons should be equals. Bows shoulde be superiour as only martial heroes can use them effectively, while slings are okayish back up for cleric and mages. And maybe halflings for that sweet +1 to hit at low levels.
Damage wise, a giant str belt wearing, high lvl archer, with bullet+5 and sling+5 can do so much more damage than a bow. Bow's high apr is better, but it can not keep up with 30+ damage sling bullets. And once the archer uses greater whirlwind, apr is moot, and sling damage output is brutal, easy 300+ damage per round.
Bows have one saving grace, it is the tactical ammo. Dispel, detonation, biting, flame/ice/acid arrows all have distinct advantages against enemy spell casters. High attack rate is very useful here, as you want to hit as much as possible with those to stack dispel and poison, among with elemental damage, not as hard as possible.
Historically, most battles are won by archers, not slingers. Although there was a period of time a civilization that raised slingers practically from childhood. To use a sling effectively in mortal combat is not easy, requires a lot of practice and mastery over the weapon. So assigning it to mages as a 'simple weapon' rings wrong to my mind. Heck, clubs are far simpler and easier to use than a sling, but mages can not learn clubs. I have never trained with any weapon in my life, yet I think I can pick up and swing a club reasonably well if I have to. A sling or bow I will have no idea to use effectively.
Ranged combat in general is kind of odd in the world of BG imho. I figure crossbows could maybe fire once or twice a fight no matter how long, and slings would pretty much be useless since they are very hard to use properly and inflict a lot less damage than the alternatives and should also have a slower rate of fire than regular bows. Magical throwing weapons I accept for what they are since, you know, magic. Everyone knows a magical throwing hammer made for dwarves can be tossed 2-3 times per round by someone decently skilled. Bows are very deadly though. Deadly enough that even Rambo uses them!
My biggest beef with ranged fighting is when they meet someone in melee and don't immediately drop the ranged weapon and pull out another weapon. How can they still fire from point blank? How do they reload? Why doesn't the guy with an axe just chop them down? Maybe in game the char with a melee weapon could have his APR set to max (5) since lower APR is rationalized by twisting, parrying and feinting. You shouldn't have to do that if you're facing someone trying to reload a crossbow.
In my mind longbows should be the most powerful over the course of a fight, closely followed by shortbows since all the fights in the games are at short range. I can accept that crossbows do the most damage but they fire way way too fast imho. Slings should just be removed from the game. If a mage can use a sling he would be awesome with a crossbow, if a cleric can't use a bow or crossbow because of religion.. tough luck, hope you're a dwarf and pick up a throwing hammer.
I have no knowledge about medieval battle tactics or anything. Just my humble 2 cents.
I don't miss the loading screens but I do miss those tips they used to have.
Which brings me on to why I deliberately don't use bows - bloody inventory management. I know there are lots of Very Useful Arrows out there but I do actually want to carry other things as well, and even when I have the Quiver That's Holds Everybloodything I end up spending so much time rummaging around in it that I forget why I needed that particular Arrow in the first place.
Army Scythe: +1 to hit, 1d8 +1 damage (average 5.5), 2 APR (total damage 11)
Shortbow +2: +2 to hit, 1d6 +2 damage (average 5.5), 2 APR (total damage 11)
The Guide: +5 to hit, 1d8 +2 damage (average 6.5), 1 APR (total damage 6.5)
The Shortbow +2 is clearly better than the Army Scythe, by +1 to hit. Now, the Shortbow +2 is also available much later in the game, but there other weapons like the Composite Longbow +1 and the Longbow of Marksmanship that are even better. The Guide is somewhat more complicated, but some napkin-level estimation tells me that if you can hit on about a 16 or lower with the shortbow, it'll have a higher expected damage output.
Looking at BG2, it's a bit murkier, because Firetooth is available very early. Still, we can compare it to the two best shortbows in the game, one of which is available very early.
Tuigan Bow: +1 to hit, 1d6 +1 damage (average 4.5), 3 APR (total damage 13.5)
Shortbow of Gesen (loaded): +4 to hit, 1d6 +2 +1d8 damage (average 10), 2 APR (total damage 20)
Shortbow of Gesen (unloaded): +4 to hit, 2 +1d8 damage (average 6.5), 2 APR (total damage 13.5)
Firetooth (unupgraded): +6 to hit, 1d8 +4 +2 damage (average 10.5), 1 APR (total damage 10.5)
Firetooth (upgraded): +7 to hit, 1d8 +5 +2 damage (average 11.5), 1 APR (total damage 10.5)
Now, we can see here that Firetooth is by far the most accurate of the available weapons, but its damage is rock bottom. Of course this changes somewhat in the hands of a warrior, so let's go ahead and look at two more cases: 20th level fighter with grandmaster in the weapon, and 20th level archer with grandmastery in the weapon.
Fighter:
Tuigan Bow: +4 to hit, 1d6 +6 damage (average 9.5), 5 APR (total damage 47.5)
Shortbow of Gesen (loaded): +7 to hit, 1d6 +7 +1d8 damage (average 15), 4 APR (total damage 60)
Shortbow of Gesen (unloaded): +7 to hit, 7 +1d8 damage (average 11.5), 4 APR (total damage 46)
Firetooth (unupgraded): +9 to hit, 1d8 +9 +2 damage (average 15.5), 3 APR (total damage 46.5)
Firetooth (upgraded): +10 to hit, 1d8 +10 +2 damage (average 16.5), 3 APR (total damage 49.5)
Archer:
Tuigan Bow: +11 to hit, 1d6 +13 damage (average 16.5), 5 APR (total damage 82.5)
Shortbow of Gesen (loaded): +14 to hit, 1d6 +14 +1d8 damage (average 22), 4 APR (total damage 88)
Shortbow of Gesen (unloaded): +14 to hit, 14 +1d8 damage (average 18.5), 4 APR (total damage 74)
Firetooth (unupgraded): +16 to hit, 1d8 +16 +2 damage (average 22.5), 3 APR (total damage 67.5)
Firetooth (upgraded): +17 to hit, 1d8 +17 +2 damage (average 23.5), 3 APR (total damage 70.5)
We can see that, from the total damage cases here, Firetooth is almost always outperformed (in terms of raw damage output) by the shortbows. The cases where it does not are mostly side-cases (such as using the unloaded Shortbow of Gesen, which is rarely necessary), or temporary advantages over the Tuigan Bow that disappear when the Shortbow of Gesen comes into play. Firetooth is far more accurate, especially compared to the Tuigan Bow, but given that ranged weapon THAC0s tend to get *very* good, I'm not sure this is terribly relevant in the late-game.
Of course magic ammo also changes the effect here, but I don't think anyone's going to get far claiming that crossbow bolts are substantially superior, on the whole, to arrows.
Basically, I don't agree that crossbows are better than bows. I do agree that they're more accurate (or that more accurate versions exist), and that especially in BG1 this may warrant serious consideration, but ultimately this increase in THAC0 tends to come at a premium in terms of raw damage output. The best point for crossbows appears to be early BG2, when Firetooth has come into play but the Shortbow of Gesen has not, but even then it seems far from a clear choice for all but the most dedicated archers. And the most dedicated archers are likely to be interested in whole-game comparisons, rather than a specific moment of crossbow superiority.
i just like to know all my Squishy Party members who need Buffing or grand items to be Melee viable in the backline where that +3 sling or that firetooth will do more good than idling on my fighters second weapon slot.
and if you are not doing a 2Hand Weapon(where bows n crossbows are neat) or Sword/Shield(throwing weapons and slings) fighter is the fiddling with inventory weaponswitching to go ranged too annoying.
From a Pure D&D Roleplaying aspect id Say my favorite is a "Light" Crossbow (one you don't need machinery or dangly bits n levers to span) it needs the Absolute Minimum of Training to be good with it.
secondly would be a Sling , more Training but weight/size and Virtual Unlimited Ammunition are virtues here.
Least favorites are Bows...they just need too much Training , and Throwing weapons are to heavy and Bulky(ofc a magic returning one is another story).