That can't be right. How can it be outside the 14 day return period if no one has got the product yet? No one's had the product for 14 days. Try asking them that? With the acknowledged delays, I'd think this would be a special case outside of the normal return policy.
There are still people who want the collector's edition. And even having a few left over would likely see all of them sold within a year or so.
I did ask them that in an e-mail reply, but I have yet to hear back. I don't understand what the problem is, it's not like I'm trying to return a used copy that they can't re-sell, they can place my copy in their inventory, brand new and ready for the next buyer. At this point I just don't want it anymore, it's left a bad taste in my mouth. I've purchased multiple copies of Beamdog's games on Steam, GOG, and iOS for no other reason than I thoroughly enjoy BGEE, BG2EE, and IWDEE and want to support Beamdog, but this whole SOD CE experience has opened my eyes. Live and learn I guess.
As was alluded, perhaps the product was considered shipped when the included digital download key was used? I pre-ordered SoD and then the CE later - I wonder if I could get a refund?
Not that I would ever ask for a refund. Me wants the precious.
At this point I've put too much time into this to back out. After an entire year of watching threads like these for new information, may as well hang in for the long haul and see this through to the end.
Still. It's extremely disheartening to read all the trouble everyone's been experiencing and the poor handling on Beamdog's part. I've been very patient, but waiting almost a year since purchase is ridiculous.
As was alluded, perhaps the product was considered shipped when the included digital download key was used? I pre-ordered SoD and then the CE later - I wonder if I could get a refund?
Not that I would ever ask for a refund. Me wants the precious.
This. But that doesn't mean it's not worth asking for clarification, or a second opinion. Beamdog's support is operated by a third party, so they're obligated to handle cases a certain way until told otherwise.
(Since Beamdog doesn't come back to the office until next week, they probably don't have a way to get clarification on extenuating circumstances like this.)
As was alluded, perhaps the product was considered shipped when the included digital download key was used? I pre-ordered SoD and then the CE later - I wonder if I could get a refund?
Not that I would ever ask for a refund. Me wants the precious.
That's probably the stance they are taking, since I redeemed the Steam key the product is considered "shipped." Which isn't completely true, nothing was really physically shipped, I just received an included digital reward. I even asked Beamdog support to keep $20 of my refund to pay for the Steam key I redeemed, but the answer was still no. Not sure what else a customer can do beyond that.
Personally, I'm still waiting patiently. Well, just about patiently.
However, in most European countries, I reckon that what Beamdog support is allegedly saying would be illegal under consumer rights law - a supplier can't start counting a limited return period for goods which haven't yet been delivered, and the CE box clearly hasn't been delivered. Obviously Beamdog could deduct the price of what has been delivered (i.e. the software download), but the rest of the CE price would be refundable by law, regardless of whatever the company's returns policy may say. [Edit: on further research (see later post), this isn't true - I think the refund entitlement in Europe would be the full price with no deduction, and keep the software free of charge! - it seems to be a deliberate legal penalty for jerking the customers around.]
Of course, Canadian law may well be different, I wouldn't know. Except ... hmmm ... Canada and the EU just recently agreed a trade treaty, and such treaties often (although I haven't checked the details in this case) include some mutual recognition of consumer rights ...
It's worth remembering that the CE is Beamdog's first and only physical product from their site. It would be reasonable to assume that policies designed for digital goods apply differently to physical ones, and those nuances may not have all been considered. Which doesn't make waiting any easier, but you can be fairly certain that they're trying to do the right thing.
The digital goods here do hold significant value, incidentally. You get two digital copies each of BGEE and SoD (Beamdog and Steam), each of which normally sells for $20. If you redeemed those Steam keys, you've already received $80 worth of digital goods, which is more than half the (base) price of the CE itself. That, more than anything, complicates the prospect of a refund: $40 is goods that can't be returned, and another $40 is goods that wouldn't be refundable at this point anyway (10 months from the purchase date).
That's not to say you shouldn't ask for a refund if you don't want to wait anymore. But in terms of consumer rights, its worth keeping all that in mind. You agree to the store's return policy when you make your purchase; if at some point you want the store to make an exception, that's exactly what you should be asking for--and know going in that the store may not be in a position to grant that exception.
That $80 figure is a stretch, @Dee. On multiple levels. I don't like that you would suggest a doubling of the value due to Steam keys. And, at any rate, the CE was priced at $150. Even if what you are saying held up, there's still nearly 50% of the purchase unaccounted for.
Further, I am not "fairly certain that they're trying to do the right thing." I have received no direct communications from Beamdog regarding this. I have seen the occasional tweet from personal Twitter handles and ad-hoc blog posts, spaced months apart. Given that this is their first physical product, I expect more communication and support. This is not a mom and child selling arts and crafts on Etsy. We're talking about a company here - with real customers forking over large sums of money for a product. Frankly, this is in no way acceptable and I don't feel compelled to give them a pass at this stage.
$80 isn't a stretch at all. Each copy normally costs you twenty. They're all included as part of the package. I'm not talking about perceived value, I'm talking about actual retail value. You could give those Steam keys to a friend. You could do the same with the Beamdog copies if you already owned the game.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be losing your patience. I'm waiting on two copies of the CE myself, and I helped design the thing. But know that, from a business perspective, you've already received part of the thing you bought. And that adds a layer of complexity to the situation.
Also, the CE was priced at $130 before shipping. Which means in terms of actual retail value, there's only $50 missing from the base price of what you paid. Shipping is separate, obviously.
And for what it's worth, I wouldn't count the Steam keys as part of the value of the CE. But they are an advertised feature of the purchase, so it's not something that should be ignored. The CE gets you the box, plus one digital copy on Beamdog, plus a Steam key. That's what you bought.
If I was receiving a refund, I would be refunded the shipping cost, too. So, it's worth considering.
And, fair enough Dee. Saying that we're only out $50 ... after putting out $150 for this thing. That's rich. If that is how the business wants to operate, okay. There seems to be nothing that I can do.
Except maybe point out the absurdity of this ordeal. Let's get into the way back machine and take a look at Beamdog's PR team at work.
March 3, 2016 – Pre-Orders Begin For SOD and the CE
March 31, 2016 – SOD Launches Digitally
May 27, 2016 – Update #1: “Our estimates still point to a ship date this summer, and we'll have more exact information for you the closer we get to production. We'll post those updates on the blog and send them via our newsletter.”
Terrific. A summer launch estimate. A bit slow but hey, not too bad.
September 1, 2016 – Update #2: We are sorry message, “Once we have all of our final components we can give an official ship date to customers, and we assume this will happen in the coming weeks.”
Yes, from May to September - through the summer and right on into autumn, no update regarding the status. Not a good sign! But, at least we are told here that we will recieve an update in the coming weeks ...
November 8, 2016 – Update #3: Complete! “Once production is complete the components will be sent overseas from China to our packaging and shipping partner in the United States. They will assemble each copy and begin mailing them to our extremely patient customers.”
Okay, two months later - but now the product is complete. Sounds like it will be going out soon.
December 2, 2016 – Update #4: Even more complete! “ Each phase will take some time to complete, but here's where we stand … (series of production steps listed) … Phase 4 will take the longest, but once it gets started we can announce shipping dates.
And now it's ... more complete. And I am told that the longest phase is still upcoming (phase four). But, at least the author decided to put lots of humor into the post. Terrific idea.
January 6, 2016 – Today: No word from Beamdog. No announcement on the shipping date.
And here we are. So, yeah, I'm not happy. And, I really don't appreciate being told that I've already received a great deal of the promised items. We both know that is not the case.
So, @Mathsorcerer or others, I'd be happy to send it to you (if it ever arrives) at the sticker price.
That seems equitable. We can probably conduct the monetary portion of the transaction via PayPal so that there is an extra layer of protection for both parties but the details can be handled once the box arrives.
You agree to the store's return policy when you make your purchase; if at some point you want the store to make an exception, that's exactly what you should be asking for--and know going in that the store may not be in a position to grant that exception.
That may be true under the law where you are, but it's not a universal principle of law.
Where I am (and fairly widely in Europe), consumer law gives various rights which are not alienated by prior agreement, under which a store's returns policy can therefore be over-ridden by law (regardless of implied consent at purchase). It's not disregarded in all circumstances, obviously, but two of the (several) circumstances in which the store's policy is legally irrelevant are unfair contracts and failure to deliver goods. Counting a limited return period from before delivery would certainly be disallowed as an unfair contract term, and failure to deliver is obvious, so the policy (allegedly) currently operated by Beamdog support would be illegal over here.
Over here, therefore, it wouldn't be asking for an exception to request a refund in these circumstances, it'd be asserting an enforceable legal right, and the supplier couldn't hide behind a restrictive return policy. It also doesn't matter if the store claim to be unable to comply - if they don't pay up, the customer can apply to have the company declared bankrupt! (A disgruntled customer actually did this to a major electrical retailer here not long ago - the customer won, and the business was sold.)
Luckily for the software business, it's treated legally more like a service industry (for historical reasons) than as a goods industry, even though many software products nowadays are effectively commoditised (especially in the games sector). This means that some of the trading rules are different (and mostly much softer), but as soon as a company goes into physical goods, then it's in an area where some jurisdictions have pretty aggressive consumer laws. You must deliver what you promise and when you promise, else you can easily find yourself in a world of hurt.
If Beamdog sleep-walked into international physical trade without first understanding the legal environment in many of its target markets, then that was ... well, let's just say "not best practice".
Not that I'm encouraging anyone to sue Beamdog, nor make regulatory trouble for them with the authorities. I'm not doing that myself, and I don't want to see Beamdog floored by legal troubles. I'm just pointing out that the problems with the CE box aren't merely an annoying commercial difficulty, but also entail potentially-serious legal consequences in some jurisdictions.
To be honest, I'd be happy to have the digital copy of SoD removed from my Beamdog account and get a full refund; but I doubt anything's going to happen so I'll pretty much just sell the box when I get it if anyone's interested.
Like Gallowglass I don't know how the law works in Canada, but in the UK the retailer would have to refund the entire cost of the package unless each component of the package was itemised and charged as a separate item on the invoice.
How much longer would Beamdog be able to postpone the shipping of the physical goods without facing legal consequences? I mostly ask this out of sheer legal curiosity.
Let's say they need six more months, or a year, or two. At which point comes a law into effect that could mean legal consequences for such a long delivery period? Are there any such laws?
Well, the point is, laws vary from place to place. Since you're curious, I'll be more specific.
Where I live, the relevant law is the EU Consumer Rights Directive (issued in 2013, taking effect from mid-2014) as applied by its local implementation (which are all intended to be the same) in every EU member state - so this is basically the same law throughout the EU, save for minor variations in language.
Under these regulations, for any goods which are ordered online and which have no delivery date specified at the time of purchase, the supplier has 30 calendar days from purchase to complete the delivery, failing which the customer has a legal right to a refund. Furthermore, this legal right lasts until 14 days after delivery (provided that goods are returned intact if already received, of course), regardless of any "company policy" or "implied acceptance" or other excuse. (A company policy can offer more generous terms, of course, but the above is the legal minimum which company policy cannot legally refuse.)
Furthermore, these regulations require not only that the company not refuse the refund, nor even merely fail to say anything about the right to a refund, but actually require the company actively to tell every customer that there is a right to a refund.
Checking the rules again before writing this, I note that there's a specific section about digital downloads. Interestingly, if the download purchased is actually downloaded within 14 days of purchase, then the supplier is specifically required to tell the customer explicitly that this voids his refund rights under these regulations in respect of the download (or downloadable component of a purchase) and also requires the customer's explicit (not implicit!) consent to that, else the company is not allowed to charge for the downloaded content. (This changes my assumption in my earlier post.)
Incidentally, in addition to the risk of being sued for enforcement of any refund refused, non-compliance with these regulations is also a criminal offence for which both a company and its individual officers can be prosecuted, and the penalty on conviction is an unlimited fine upon both the company and its officers - so this is quite serious law in Europe, with significant consequences.
Obviously Beamdog's CE box meets the above criteria (online purchase and no specified date), so the law in Europe says that customers can claim a refund now and forever (unless and until they do actually deliver, of course, and then plus the extra 14 days) and the company must pay - their "returns policy" is irrelevant. Furthermore, because the purchasing process (IIRC) didn't include the required explicit notification and consent, the refund due would be the entire price with no deduction for the software itself (so yes, customers can keep the software for free!)
Thus Beamdog has no more time at all under European law, because they have already been acting illegally for several months, if indeed (as alleged) they are refusing refunds.
However, of course, all this is the law only in the EU, and Beamdog are not here. In Canada, no doubt the law is different ... but is it drastically different? I assume Canada has some sort of consumer protection law about this sort of issue, although I've no idea of the details.
I suspect a lot of people outside the EU might be quite surprised to hear how stringent EU consumer rights law is! (I'm even quite surprised myself, after finding the section which forbids charging for digital download unless explicit conditions are met.)
For my own protection and everyone else's, I think I ought to add: I am not offering legal services and this message should not be construed as legal advice.
January 6, 2016 – Today: No word from Beamdog. No announcement on the shipping date.
The last blog entry was based on the known information. As I said the week before Christmas, Beamdog will post the update when they check everything. But then the holidays started and the office closed.
This is why there're, unfortunately, no updates since my last post in this thread.
As for the cancellation question, I've passed it to the higher-ups.
Okay, so next question: how do the laws work if someone in the EU purchases something from an Alberta store? Is the Alberta store required to comply with the EU laws, or is the customer no longer protected because they're going outside the EU for their purchase? Or is there a specific provision that accommodates both?
I feel compelled to reiterate here that my questions are not intended to defend or justify the wait. From what I gather Beamdog is just as frustrated by the delays as everyone who's waiting on the thing they ordered.
I just think it's important to draw a distinction between "this is what we're legally entitled to" and "this is what we think Beamdog should do if they want to make things right."
Comments
Not that I would ever ask for a refund. Me wants the precious.
Still. It's extremely disheartening to read all the trouble everyone's been experiencing and the poor handling on Beamdog's part. I've been very patient, but waiting almost a year since purchase is ridiculous.
(Since Beamdog doesn't come back to the office until next week, they probably don't have a way to get clarification on extenuating circumstances like this.)
However, in most European countries, I reckon that what Beamdog support is allegedly saying would be illegal under consumer rights law - a supplier can't start counting a limited return period for goods which haven't yet been delivered, and the CE box clearly hasn't been delivered. Obviously Beamdog could deduct the price of what has been delivered (i.e. the software download), but the rest of the CE price would be refundable by law, regardless of whatever the company's returns policy may say. [Edit: on further research (see later post), this isn't true - I think the refund entitlement in Europe would be the full price with no deduction, and keep the software free of charge! - it seems to be a deliberate legal penalty for jerking the customers around.]
Of course, Canadian law may well be different, I wouldn't know. Except ... hmmm ... Canada and the EU just recently agreed a trade treaty, and such treaties often (although I haven't checked the details in this case) include some mutual recognition of consumer rights ...
That's not to say you shouldn't ask for a refund if you don't want to wait anymore. But in terms of consumer rights, its worth keeping all that in mind. You agree to the store's return policy when you make your purchase; if at some point you want the store to make an exception, that's exactly what you should be asking for--and know going in that the store may not be in a position to grant that exception.
Further, I am not "fairly certain that they're trying to do the right thing." I have received no direct communications from Beamdog regarding this. I have seen the occasional tweet from personal Twitter handles and ad-hoc blog posts, spaced months apart. Given that this is their first physical product, I expect more communication and support. This is not a mom and child selling arts and crafts on Etsy. We're talking about a company here - with real customers forking over large sums of money for a product. Frankly, this is in no way acceptable and I don't feel compelled to give them a pass at this stage.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be losing your patience. I'm waiting on two copies of the CE myself, and I helped design the thing. But know that, from a business perspective, you've already received part of the thing you bought. And that adds a layer of complexity to the situation.
And for what it's worth, I wouldn't count the Steam keys as part of the value of the CE. But they are an advertised feature of the purchase, so it's not something that should be ignored. The CE gets you the box, plus one digital copy on Beamdog, plus a Steam key. That's what you bought.
And, fair enough Dee. Saying that we're only out $50 ... after putting out $150 for this thing. That's rich. If that is how the business wants to operate, okay. There seems to be nothing that I can do.
Except maybe point out the absurdity of this ordeal. Let's get into the way back machine and take a look at Beamdog's PR team at work. Terrific. A summer launch estimate. A bit slow but hey, not too bad. Yes, from May to September - through the summer and right on into autumn, no update regarding the status. Not a good sign! But, at least we are told here that we will recieve an update in the coming weeks ... Okay, two months later - but now the product is complete. Sounds like it will be going out soon. And now it's ... more complete. And I am told that the longest phase is still upcoming (phase four). But, at least the author decided to put lots of humor into the post. Terrific idea. And here we are. So, yeah, I'm not happy. And, I really don't appreciate being told that I've already received a great deal of the promised items. We both know that is not the case.
Where I am (and fairly widely in Europe), consumer law gives various rights which are not alienated by prior agreement, under which a store's returns policy can therefore be over-ridden by law (regardless of implied consent at purchase). It's not disregarded in all circumstances, obviously, but two of the (several) circumstances in which the store's policy is legally irrelevant are unfair contracts and failure to deliver goods. Counting a limited return period from before delivery would certainly be disallowed as an unfair contract term, and failure to deliver is obvious, so the policy (allegedly) currently operated by Beamdog support would be illegal over here.
Over here, therefore, it wouldn't be asking for an exception to request a refund in these circumstances, it'd be asserting an enforceable legal right, and the supplier couldn't hide behind a restrictive return policy. It also doesn't matter if the store claim to be unable to comply - if they don't pay up, the customer can apply to have the company declared bankrupt! (A disgruntled customer actually did this to a major electrical retailer here not long ago - the customer won, and the business was sold.)
Luckily for the software business, it's treated legally more like a service industry (for historical reasons) than as a goods industry, even though many software products nowadays are effectively commoditised (especially in the games sector). This means that some of the trading rules are different (and mostly much softer), but as soon as a company goes into physical goods, then it's in an area where some jurisdictions have pretty aggressive consumer laws. You must deliver what you promise and when you promise, else you can easily find yourself in a world of hurt.
If Beamdog sleep-walked into international physical trade without first understanding the legal environment in many of its target markets, then that was ... well, let's just say "not best practice".
Not that I'm encouraging anyone to sue Beamdog, nor make regulatory trouble for them with the authorities. I'm not doing that myself, and I don't want to see Beamdog floored by legal troubles. I'm just pointing out that the problems with the CE box aren't merely an annoying commercial difficulty, but also entail potentially-serious legal consequences in some jurisdictions.
Where I live, the relevant law is the EU Consumer Rights Directive (issued in 2013, taking effect from mid-2014) as applied by its local implementation (which are all intended to be the same) in every EU member state - so this is basically the same law throughout the EU, save for minor variations in language.
Under these regulations, for any goods which are ordered online and which have no delivery date specified at the time of purchase, the supplier has 30 calendar days from purchase to complete the delivery, failing which the customer has a legal right to a refund. Furthermore, this legal right lasts until 14 days after delivery (provided that goods are returned intact if already received, of course), regardless of any "company policy" or "implied acceptance" or other excuse. (A company policy can offer more generous terms, of course, but the above is the legal minimum which company policy cannot legally refuse.)
Furthermore, these regulations require not only that the company not refuse the refund, nor even merely fail to say anything about the right to a refund, but actually require the company actively to tell every customer that there is a right to a refund.
Checking the rules again before writing this, I note that there's a specific section about digital downloads. Interestingly, if the download purchased is actually downloaded within 14 days of purchase, then the supplier is specifically required to tell the customer explicitly that this voids his refund rights under these regulations in respect of the download (or downloadable component of a purchase) and also requires the customer's explicit (not implicit!) consent to that, else the company is not allowed to charge for the downloaded content. (This changes my assumption in my earlier post.)
Incidentally, in addition to the risk of being sued for enforcement of any refund refused, non-compliance with these regulations is also a criminal offence for which both a company and its individual officers can be prosecuted, and the penalty on conviction is an unlimited fine upon both the company and its officers - so this is quite serious law in Europe, with significant consequences.
Obviously Beamdog's CE box meets the above criteria (online purchase and no specified date), so the law in Europe says that customers can claim a refund now and forever (unless and until they do actually deliver, of course, and then plus the extra 14 days) and the company must pay - their "returns policy" is irrelevant. Furthermore, because the purchasing process (IIRC) didn't include the required explicit notification and consent, the refund due would be the entire price with no deduction for the software itself (so yes, customers can keep the software for free!)
Thus Beamdog has no more time at all under European law, because they have already been acting illegally for several months, if indeed (as alleged) they are refusing refunds.
However, of course, all this is the law only in the EU, and Beamdog are not here. In Canada, no doubt the law is different ... but is it drastically different? I assume Canada has some sort of consumer protection law about this sort of issue, although I've no idea of the details.
I suspect a lot of people outside the EU might be quite surprised to hear how stringent EU consumer rights law is! (I'm even quite surprised myself, after finding the section which forbids charging for digital download unless explicit conditions are met.)
For my own protection and everyone else's, I think I ought to add: I am not offering legal services and this message should not be construed as legal advice.
This is why there're, unfortunately, no updates since my last post in this thread.
As for the cancellation question, I've passed it to the higher-ups.
I just think it's important to draw a distinction between "this is what we're legally entitled to" and "this is what we think Beamdog should do if they want to make things right."