In my state (one of the United ones), the Department of Justice can investigate and fine companies for all sorts of fraud and procedural mistakes. As an example, telemarketers have 30 seconds to give their name, their employer's name, and what on earth they're trying to sell. If the DoJ can demonstrate that a company is using deceptive (not criminal, mind you) or marketing practices, they can hit that company for 50-100 thousand dollars per violation. The DoJ also gets a cut of those fines, so they tend to pursue them aggressively when they have a decent case.
Intent isn't the issue in this sort of situation--that's more of a consideration for criminal cases. No one could argue that Beamdog has made a deliberate attempt to defraud or steal from its CE customers. In terms of a civil suit (as some mentioned upthread) the damages wouldn't justify a suit, and Beamdog (I presume) would start handing out refunds before it ever reached that point, anyway.
My guess is that the real danger comes frim regulatory agencies like my local DoJ. Regardless of intent, it's entirely possible that Beamdog may have tripped over one (or several) laws or regulations governing advertisement or delivery of product or service. The potential combination of draconian fines and news about Beamdog being hit for millions over "unscrupulous business practices" would probably be fatal.
Anywau, sometimes the question is only partially about the text of the law. The rest of the question concerns whether anyone enforces it.
@Doubledimas - but the Netherlands comes under those detailed consumer protection provisions which I described earlier, so yes, there are all sorts of avenues for legal action, which Europeans are accustomed to having available. However, Canadian law appears to be very different indeed.
The rules quoted above imply that an online contract cannot be repudiated for non-performance once 30 days have passed, otherwise what it says couldn't be true. This is very strange, since Canadian law was originally based on English law from colonial times, and English contract law has allowed cancellation for non-performance since long before Canadian independence. Thus Canada must have taken specific legislative action to remove pre-existing trade protections which were available even under old English law!
If there's no non-performance provision, then there's no effective obligation to deliver anything, because the customer has no legal remedy when nothing is delivered. And indeed, Beamdog are neither delivering nor refunding, and (from what people in this thread are reporting that they've heard from Beamdog support) the company apparently believe that they're within their rights to do neither ... which means that it must also be the company's understanding that they have no actual obligation to deliver. Being Canadians, Beamdog are presumably accustomed to this situation under Canadian law, so probably they take it for granted that this is a "normal" situation, perhaps not even realising that it is very far from what customers in many other countries think of as "normal".
They will get the product out eventually... I have myself been removing the knuckles from voluptuous elven virgins with adjoining eyebrows and turning them into dice for weeks now.
There was a thought that my supplier would have had problems finding the virgins but apparently the monochrome brow stops elven males getting laid... Just give me a few more months and I will have them ready for you.
While the office is closed, I've decided to check the subject being discussed on the last few pages of this thread.
For this post, I'm taking taking my moderator's hat off and put all administrative privileges into into the bag of holding.
@JuliusBorisov , I'm pretty sure all the law you've quoted applies to products that were received by the buyer
The rub here is that the product purchased was never received as purchased by any buyer.
Basically, Beamdog took money for a physical product, and then did not deliver that product to any buyers. That's criminal fraud, not a legal consumer issue.
It's questionable to affirm the company took money for nothing. The damages to reputation would be too serious, much bigger than any profit on the CE pre-orders if it were the case.
I would add that the Canadian law - the Alberta's Fair Trading Act, in particular, - grants methods for customers if they have enough evidence a seller uses "unfair practices". As it follows from this legal document, there's a procedure - Notice, and an action in the Court of Queen’s Bench. But this is a serious process, which should involve a lawyer and all the subsequent costs, so it is used in most hopeless situations. The case of the CE, however, is far from hopeless.
Anyway, this is my last "personal" comment on this matter.
Thank you, @JuliusBorisov, that's both interesting and helpful.
I note that under Alberta's Fair Trading Act:-
1) section 6(4)(k) lists one of the defined unfair practices as "a supplier’s representation that the supplier can supply goods or services if the supplier cannot";
2) section 7(1) confers a right that "A consumer may cancel at no cost or penalty to the consumer a consumer transaction, whether written or oral, that was entered into by the consumer and a supplier who engaged in an unfair practice regarding the consumer transaction, whether the unfair practice occurred before, during or after the time when the consumer transaction was entered into, and in addition the consumer is entitled to any remedy that is available at law, including damages"; and
3) section 7.1(2) allows that "A consumer may give notice in any manner as long as the notice indicates (a) the consumer’s intention (i) to cancel the consumer transaction, or (ii) to seek recovery if cancellation is not possible, and (b) the consumer’s reasons for taking the actions set out in clause (a), and meets any requirements that may be prescribed."
Regardless of the claim that Beamdog might soon become able to supply the goods, the situation when the sales were made turned out to be that Beamdog was not at that time able to supply (the physical part of) the goods, and this evidently remained the situation for many months, so there's a good case for unfair practice under section 6(4)(k).
Therefore an email to Beamdog under section 7.1(2) which cites unfair practice under section 6(4)(k) and exercises the consequent right of cancellation under section 7(1) ought to be sufficient to claim a refund for those who want one (regardless of any "company policy" or whatever.)
Again, I'm exploring this issue as a matter of academic interest, and am personally continuing to await delivery.
I will not question a lawyer on the topic of legality. However, I would claim that hiding behind a 14 day return period before the product has even shipped, if that were the official response, is a PR disaster to top the PR blunders this product has already been involved in, and there have been more than a few.
Speaking for myself as an example, I broke my own rules three times with Siege of Dragonspear. Rule 1: Don't pre-order games. Rule 2: Don't order collector's editions. Rule 3: Don't pay over a hundred bucks for a game. But... well... Baldur's Gate, done by a company that had already shown a respect for the franchise and a carefully nuanced update to the existing games. To quote animation's favorite human popsicle, "Shut up and take my money!". There's just something about Minsc, I think, that renders common sense immaterial in his presence. So, I threw cash into the wind caution to the wind and I pre-ordered a $130 collector's edition.
The game itself is good. Mechanically, it's solid. The new features are either genius or irrelevant to my interests, though a couple (the journal and the highlight toggle) cause me no end of frustration to use. And if you leave out the finale, the game is pretty darn good, just not very memorable. I really don't like the first half of the finale, which systematically eviscerates what made the story so intriguing (The idea of the Scion of Bhaal at odds with a rival who is simply a better hero? Sold. Oh, wait, no. She's just a self-righteous brat who is lying to and using everyone in pursuit of a selfish goal and escapes justice without ever admitting she was wrong. Never mind. Seriously, if you weren't intending on doing anything in BG2 with SOD content, why couldn't she just surrender herself to go before the law she swore to uphold as a paladin?) The second half was well done, though the loose ends it created in the narrative seriously bug me. It fit the pieces together nicely resolved the problems with the second game's start. All told, I am largely satisfied with the game itself.
The collector's edition, on the other hand, is just one bit of bad news after another. When I bought it, I figured the collector's edition to ship at or around the time the game went on sale (with a digital key included to allow first day play). When I heard I would have to wait another two months to get it, I was frankly shocked. I'd never heard of that ever happening, and never imagined it being something to check into before buying. The delays have gone from frustrating to comical to frustrating to comical and now are back into frustrating with the start of the new year. For what was initially being offered, the price point was already absurd but all this on top of it? No word on the matter was given for a considerable time, and certainly no suggestions that Beamdog would do something to make up for delays. That's not bad, mind you, it's just simply not "going the extra mile". Using the 14-day thing to deny people wanting their money back after eight months of waiting would take it from the True Neutral of "it's just business" to the Lawful Evil of "finding new and interesting ways to insult your own customers".
Personally, I don't intend to ask for my money back. When I get my collector's edition, I'm going to place it on my mantle as an object lesson to myself about the age-old adages of fools and money. And maybe, just maybe, a set of dice of better quality than you can get for six bucks at the local gaming store with some vaguely BG themed shrink-wrap on them.
First, let's remain calm. The customer support people are pulling from a default script, in this case not even one specific to our company. Secondly, we are very close to shipping the Collector's edition out to USA customers (just waiting on firm confirmation) If you still feel you want a refund you can open a ticket in the customer support tool (Zendesk). Given the length of time, issuing a refund is going to be a bit of a challenge and will likely be done by hand it might take some time. I'd strongly encourage you to stick it out for a little longer. We've all had a very hard time bringing this collector's edition from concept to reality and I'd hate for you to miss out on the fruits of our collective investment.
If you really want a return, put in a ticket as we have to lock the delivery list on wednesday at the latest (actually we're supposed to have locked it already), but if you want a refund we can start the process and remove your order from the shipping list. I've sent some direction to our CS people (it might take a few hours to make it through the proper channels) so they understand how to handle this.
I ordered my version of the CE in March of 2016, so I'm about two months away from a year since ordering. I'm a big fan of Beamdog and the EE versions of BG, but my patience is at an end. I don't care at this point if Beamdog keeps $20 of my refund for my Steam key, heck, make it $40, I just don't want it anymore. This was a failed business transaction, Beamdog failed to deliver the promised goods in a timely manner, so I'm just ready to get a refund and move on. Nothing personal against anyone, it was a just a failed transaction, I would pursue the same outcome if was an item I purchased from Amazon, Newegg, eBay, Etsy, or whatever. I hope Beamdog does the right thing.
First, let's remain calm. The customer support people are pulling from a default script, in this case not even one specific to our company. Secondly, we are very close to shipping the Collector's edition out to USA customers (just waiting on firm confirmation) If you still feel you want a refund you can open a ticket in the customer support tool (Zendesk). Given the length of time, issuing a refund is going to be a bit of a challenge and will likely be done by hand it might take some time. I'd strongly encourage you to stick it out for a little longer. We've all had a very hard time bringing this collector's edition from concept to reality and I'd hate for you to miss out on the fruits of our collective investment.
-Trent
I'll take this as a good sign. Sounds like we are really close. Thank you for the update. I just hope it doesn't turn into another two month waiting period for the next "phase" of completion. That being said I can't wait to have it in my hands. If anything this long of a wait will make it that much sweeter when it does finally get here.
Uhm... the phrase "USA customers" is something I find a bit... uhm... disturbing? Does it mean I'll have to wait another few months if I'm not from USA?
Since the USA is where the assembly happens, the shipping to customers is going to happen there first. Canadian customers and rest of world customers will have a little more time as we ship pallets of the collector's editions to distribution centers and then ship directly to customers from those depots. We're going as fast as we can pull the levers and give direction to the external companies we are working with. We want to have them all shipped out as soon as humanly possible.
@Xerxes1811 I'm sorry. I can understand your frustration as we are also very frustrated with all the delays. Simply put, we started down the path with the best intentions and we found a promising partner to help us execute and somewhere along the way the wheels kept falling off. Numerous delays, numerous changes in suppliers, poor quality prototypes, revised specifications and endless holidays interrupting the process in any countries. This has been a hard lesson in the complexity of producing multi-component Collector's Edition products. My hope going forward is if we were ever to attempt this again we would have a clear idea of all the challenges and timelines.
I'm not surprised that Beamdog is frustrated too, of course they are, I think we all understand that Beamdog didn't create this situation deliberately. It's good to have @TrentOster's personal acknowledgement that he understands that some of the customers are also thoroughly pissed off about all this.
This has been a hard lesson in the complexity of producing multi-component Collector's Edition products.
From my own business experience, the main lesson for a small business in the production of a product dependent on multiple external suppliers is never outsource anything overseas (i.e. outside the jurisdiction of your own country's courts, etc.) if there's any way to source it at home, no matter how tempting the overseas price looks. It will always be cocked up somewhere along the line, and only big businesses can afford enforcement action to obtain redress outside their home jurisdiction.
Best of luck with the assembly and shipping processes, @TrentOster, I hope nothing else turns pear-shaped.
And that'd be great news for international customers too ... except that you're a software company, and unfortunately "soon" has a special technical meaning when used by a software company ...
Those of us who have already sent tickets earlier, should we resend them? I assume so. Thanks for the update @TrentOster. It means a lot to hear from you on this issue. It's also welcome to hear that you will be accepting of refund requests.
Those of us who have already sent tickets earlier, should we resend them? I assume so. Thanks for the update @TrentOster. It means a lot to hear from you on this issue. It's also welcome to hear that you will be accepting of refund requests.
Excellent question, besides, I can't log into the zendesk support, I keep getting an error message saying it couldn't authenticate me. I'm logged in fine to my account no problems, but when I click on support I get the "Failed to authenticate" error. I've always just contacted support via email in the past.
@Xerxes1811 I'm sorry. I can understand your frustration as we are also very frustrated with all the delays. Simply put, we started down the path with the best intentions and we found a promising partner to help us execute and somewhere along the way the wheels kept falling off. Numerous delays, numerous changes in suppliers, poor quality prototypes, revised specifications and endless holidays interrupting the process in any countries. This has been a hard lesson in the complexity of producing multi-component Collector's Edition products. My hope going forward is if we were ever to attempt this again we would have a clear idea of all the challenges and timelines.
Thanks Trent! Please understand that this whole refund thing isn't a personal attack on you or Beamdog in general, I hope my posts didn't come off that way, I admit I've had some frustrations with this whole process. The CE just didn't work out for me for various reasons and I will likely pursue the refund and see what happens. I'm sure it wil get snatched up quickly by the next customer. I'm still rooting for you guys to succeed and look forward to your next game announcement.
Our customer support is handled by an external company (also located in Canada) as we always seemed to find more work for people in the office than they could manage while keeping on top of customer support. As with any external relationship there are occasionally communication issues which crop up. With regards to the support login issue, I'm hoping to see what we can do around that this year.
Comments
Intent isn't the issue in this sort of situation--that's more of a consideration for criminal cases. No one could argue that Beamdog has made a deliberate attempt to defraud or steal from its CE customers. In terms of a civil suit (as some mentioned upthread) the damages wouldn't justify a suit, and Beamdog (I presume) would start handing out refunds before it ever reached that point, anyway.
My guess is that the real danger comes frim regulatory agencies like my local DoJ. Regardless of intent, it's entirely possible that Beamdog may have tripped over one (or several) laws or regulations governing advertisement or delivery of product or service. The potential combination of draconian fines and news about Beamdog being hit for millions over "unscrupulous business practices" would probably be fatal.
Anywau, sometimes the question is only partially about the text of the law. The rest of the question concerns whether anyone enforces it.
The rules quoted above imply that an online contract cannot be repudiated for non-performance once 30 days have passed, otherwise what it says couldn't be true. This is very strange, since Canadian law was originally based on English law from colonial times, and English contract law has allowed cancellation for non-performance since long before Canadian independence. Thus Canada must have taken specific legislative action to remove pre-existing trade protections which were available even under old English law!
If there's no non-performance provision, then there's no effective obligation to deliver anything, because the customer has no legal remedy when nothing is delivered. And indeed, Beamdog are neither delivering nor refunding, and (from what people in this thread are reporting that they've heard from Beamdog support) the company apparently believe that they're within their rights to do neither ... which means that it must also be the company's understanding that they have no actual obligation to deliver. Being Canadians, Beamdog are presumably accustomed to this situation under Canadian law, so probably they take it for granted that this is a "normal" situation, perhaps not even realising that it is very far from what customers in many other countries think of as "normal".
There was a thought that my supplier would have had problems finding the virgins but apparently the monochrome brow stops elven males getting laid... Just give me a few more months and I will have them ready for you.
*whittles elven knuckle slightly quicker with exceptionally sharp whittling tool*
I would add that the Canadian law - the Alberta's Fair Trading Act, in particular, - grants methods for customers if they have enough evidence a seller uses "unfair practices". As it follows from this legal document, there's a procedure - Notice, and an action in the Court of Queen’s Bench. But this is a serious process, which should involve a lawyer and all the subsequent costs, so it is used in most hopeless situations. The case of the CE, however, is far from hopeless.
Anyway, this is my last "personal" comment on this matter.
I note that under Alberta's Fair Trading Act:-
1) section 6(4)(k) lists one of the defined unfair practices as
"a supplier’s representation that the supplier can supply goods or services if the supplier cannot";
2) section 7(1) confers a right that
"A consumer may cancel at no cost or penalty to the consumer a consumer transaction, whether written or oral, that was entered into by the consumer and a supplier who engaged in an unfair practice regarding the consumer transaction, whether the unfair practice occurred before, during or after the time when the consumer transaction was entered into, and in addition the consumer is entitled to any remedy that is available at law, including damages"; and
3) section 7.1(2) allows that
"A consumer may give notice in any manner as long as the notice indicates
(a) the consumer’s intention
(i) to cancel the consumer transaction, or
(ii) to seek recovery if cancellation is not possible,
and
(b) the consumer’s reasons for taking the actions set out in clause (a),
and meets any requirements that may be prescribed."
Regardless of the claim that Beamdog might soon become able to supply the goods, the situation when the sales were made turned out to be that Beamdog was not at that time able to supply (the physical part of) the goods, and this evidently remained the situation for many months, so there's a good case for unfair practice under section 6(4)(k).
Therefore an email to Beamdog under section 7.1(2) which cites unfair practice under section 6(4)(k) and exercises the consequent right of cancellation under section 7(1) ought to be sufficient to claim a refund for those who want one (regardless of any "company policy" or whatever.)
Again, I'm exploring this issue as a matter of academic interest, and am personally continuing to await delivery.
Speaking for myself as an example, I broke my own rules three times with Siege of Dragonspear. Rule 1: Don't pre-order games. Rule 2: Don't order collector's editions. Rule 3: Don't pay over a hundred bucks for a game. But... well... Baldur's Gate, done by a company that had already shown a respect for the franchise and a carefully nuanced update to the existing games. To quote animation's favorite human popsicle, "Shut up and take my money!". There's just something about Minsc, I think, that renders common sense immaterial in his presence. So, I threw
cash into the windcaution to the wind and I pre-ordered a $130 collector's edition.The game itself is good. Mechanically, it's solid. The new features are either genius or irrelevant to my interests, though a couple (the journal and the highlight toggle) cause me no end of frustration to use. And if you leave out the finale, the game is pretty darn good, just not very memorable. I really don't like the first half of the finale, which systematically eviscerates what made the story so intriguing (The idea of the Scion of Bhaal at odds with a rival who is simply a better hero? Sold. Oh, wait, no. She's just a self-righteous brat who is lying to and using everyone in pursuit of a selfish goal and escapes justice without ever admitting she was wrong. Never mind. Seriously, if you weren't intending on doing anything in BG2 with SOD content, why couldn't she just surrender herself to go before the law she swore to uphold as a paladin?) The second half was well done, though the loose ends it created in the narrative seriously bug me. It fit the pieces together nicely resolved the problems with the second game's start. All told, I am largely satisfied with the game itself.
The collector's edition, on the other hand, is just one bit of bad news after another. When I bought it, I figured the collector's edition to ship at or around the time the game went on sale (with a digital key included to allow first day play). When I heard I would have to wait another two months to get it, I was frankly shocked. I'd never heard of that ever happening, and never imagined it being something to check into before buying. The delays have gone from frustrating to comical to frustrating to comical and now are back into frustrating with the start of the new year. For what was initially being offered, the price point was already absurd but all this on top of it? No word on the matter was given for a considerable time, and certainly no suggestions that Beamdog would do something to make up for delays. That's not bad, mind you, it's just simply not "going the extra mile". Using the 14-day thing to deny people wanting their money back after eight months of waiting would take it from the True Neutral of "it's just business" to the Lawful Evil of "finding new and interesting ways to insult your own customers".
Personally, I don't intend to ask for my money back. When I get my collector's edition, I'm going to place it on my mantle as an object lesson to myself about the age-old adages of fools and money. And maybe, just maybe, a set of dice of better quality than you can get for six bucks at the local gaming store with some vaguely BG themed shrink-wrap on them.
Edit: A couple minor typos.
-Trent
My hope going forward is if we were ever to attempt this again we would have a clear idea of all the challenges and timelines.
Best of luck with the assembly and shipping processes, @TrentOster, I hope nothing else turns pear-shaped.
There's some news regarding the CE on the Beamblog: http://blog.beamdog.com/2017/01/collectors-edition-update-5.html
The basics are that North American shipping will begin on the 16th with international orders to follow soon.
*Snuffled cold and throaty cough ridden reply*
Most of the dice will be delivered on time. But the Daigle asks for the impossible. I need more virgins!
*Snuffled cold and throaty cough ridden reply*
The Daigle is coming here?
* Wheeze... That is correct @Anduin , and he is most displeased with your apparent lack of progress. Wheeze...*
We shall double our efforts!
*muffled badly concealed threat*
...
I always new this enterprise would blow up around me...
*Whittles knuckle dice frantically*