I think this thread actually turned out to be pretty good. I read the first two pages of the OP and maybe one other fighting with a group of people and got disinterested. Then later I read through the rest. The following 5 pages are 95% Overhaul supporters who just want to see BG EE remade and understand the difficulties. A great read, and a good segregation of the topic from people who have just read that the release has been delayed and are still angry, and people who have calmed down and can post rationally.
All in all the reasoning behind the delay was made very clear. The game needs more work- bugs need to be fixed and content needs to be fully implemented. Anyone angry enough about this change can just get a refund and be on their way. There is clearly no mob of discontented pitchfork-wielding townsfolk that can easily be rallied here, and trying to do so is just sad.
The real question could be asked ( and at this point I find it a bit facetious as the OP distanced himself from the conversation around page 2, but I'm just writing out my thoughts as they come ) - what do you want? Holding Overhaul "accountable" for the delay does what for you? In what way do you do that, that creates a positive result ( for you, or for anyone else )? Inciting people to become angry does what for you?
You have two real options, wait until the game is finished and enjoy it, or get a refund and be on your way. Complaining about the situation does nothing for you or anyone else. Your negative feelings will do nothing good for the game you wanted to play. There are plenty of better uses for your energy and time.
Once again, I'll preface by saying that I am an avid Beamdog supporter and intend to remain so, because I want to to see them realize their vision. I love what they're doing.
But I don't think the calls from fans to stifle complaints are fair. I own a small business and if a customer is legitimately dissatisfied about something I might have done better (yet to happen, happily), I would
1) be all ears 2) communicate well in response 3) genuinely respect the consumer's valid concerns regardless of their tone 4) not make any excuses 4) apologize where appropriate 5) work hard to rectify any problems to make them happy.
So from my vantage I see nothing wrong whatsoever with customers voicing their discontent about this 11th hour postponement. In order for a business to operate successfully, the owner should always remain open to negative feedback, and use it constructively to improve operations and the product.
The only valid complaint is how late the notice came, as people actually made plans to use their vacation time around the release of the game. (I didn't, btw.) That's not to be criticized, I don't think. Since for Beamdog, if anything, it's a measure of just how important this product is to fans. Customers who scheduled vacation time for the game's release obviously took something of a risk. (No doubt the fine print for pre-order specifies that the ship date may be subject to change.) But IIRC the one or two communications we received on the forum about release date was that it was on track.
Anyway, by now I think most customers acknowledge that the game must be released according to a high standard. Beamdog's entire future rides on this game, and they will likely go under if they release a bug-ridden BG:EE. The only real issue is the lateness of the postponement... Okay, well, that and also the glaring deficits in showcasing features, and in general how the PR/marketing is being handled.
From a business model perspective there's nothing wrong at all with customers venting. The business should respond earnestly and authentically, and make things right.
That said, there will be a point at which the complaints will amount to flogging a dead horse. We're probably not quite there yet, though. After a few weeks perhaps.
@Rodrigj Scheduling a limited resource like vacation days based on a ship date in an industry notorious for missing ship dates is not a very good idea. You wouldn't want to schedule a vacation for a new home you are having built either as those dates very often slip as well. This isn't a judgment about how someone spends their free time, but a very real fact about the nature of certain industries.
You didn't need to be on social media to see this slip coming a mile away. They didn't get the early download going for pre-order customers. They barely released any screenshots. There were no advance reviews. No gameplay video was released. These are all signs...
Now, to say something constructive, I'm not exactly on board with the argument "if you followed the forums/Trent's twitter/etc. closely, you'd know better than to make plans around the release date." No one should be punished for not seeking this particular kind of information. It's like buying a ticket to a movie, getting there to find that the screening was cancelled and then have a theater employee going "well sir, if you followed us on Twitter, you would've known in advance. Screw you." They have a right to be annoyed and feel inconvenienced.
With that said, some people are taking this way too seriously. You're coming off as spoiled brats way in over their heads, trying to lecture people on business and marketing and the industry and life and the universe and everything. Chill. If the worst thing to happen to you lately is that you can't play the new Baldur's Gate, take a moment to reflect on how fortunate you are.
It's all a conspiracy, those dastardly beamdogs just want to keep the meme thread going for as long as possible so they have something to laugh at during breaks in their epic BGEE multiplayer sessions.
I've been some days of the forum to cool down, and I must say that my rage will live on for ever. At least Ill be able to study a lot for next weeks test...
What I find surprising, more than anything, is the number of people responding to verdegreen's posts from the first three pages of this thread, when he hasn't posted at all since then.
What I find surprising, more than anything, is the number of people responding to verdegreen's posts from the first three pages of this thread, when he hasn't posted at all since then.
Honestly, after reading the first page, I couldn't be bothered to read further.
That, and I really wanted to type "hyperbole horse."
@Kilivitz As for me, I try to take care to qualify that this is what I feel or how I see it. I don't believe in telling others how they should feel, or what they should say, or do. I can however state and model what I think is right. And I certainly will not refrain from stating things as I see them because it might make someone else uncomfortable.
Of course there's value to venting one's spleen only up to a point. And at this stage it's a hair's breadth from becoming a dead horse. I would grant you that.
@Lemernis in other words, you think I shouldn't tell people that they're not supposed to whine like that. I'm not trying to tell anyone what or how to feel. I am, as yourself, stating things as I see them. I wouldn't be pretentious enough to think that someone's gonna change their ways because I made a snarky remark.
I do agree that the subject is becoming a dead horse, though. Makes me think people will be discussing this even after the game is out.
"I'm unable to enjoy BG:EE because Overhaul broke my heart when they failed to deliver the game on September 18th."
@Kilvitz, Lol, no! I actually respect what you said and agree with the gist. I personally don't want to sound pretentious, or condescending, or over-intellectualizing (i.e., a lecturer). Which I probably am, lol. It's healthy for me if you point that out to me. I can take it.
I only have one quibble with Beamdog's handling of the matter, and I keep it in perspective. I'm still their staunch supporter. I think one of my character flaws is that it's hard for me not to get in the last word, especially if I believe that I'm right. I've said more than need be said on the subject. So I should stop already. I just think there's no harm for others to vent a little, and for Beamdog to use the experience constructively to improve. That's all. Peace to all.
There's something to that, Kilivitz; to the idea, that is, that one cannot command others not to be upset.
On the other hand, sometimes people do need a breath of cool air and a re-orienting of perspective. This is especially true on the Internet. Some people may have seen the comments in this thread and said, "You know what? Maybe I'm overreacting and Beamdog is NOT just like Hitler."
@Lemernis I hope there wasn't any misunderstanding! When I talked about pretentiousness, the comment was regarding me and my remarks. I actually never directed any criticism to you - I enjoy your posts, even when I don't agree with them.
@Hertz or maybe we will just reveal our true colors as apologists and fanboys and sheep.
@Ward I can't believe I'm even responding to what you just wrote.
If I understand correctly, you take it for granted that every upset person are actively hanging around the official forums often enough to be able to tell that the game wasn't ready from looking at the previews.. AND being able to foresee the delay because of that reason..? Thus making their arguments invalid?
You're lucky the forum rules prevent me from writing exactly what I think of that.
As for Trent, I like that instead of apoligizing to the fans and to those who pre-ordered, he started joking about the delay on his official Twitter account. I mean, that's just too funny, you know. That'll surely calm the fans down.
Our views are so different that it's totally pointless to even go on discussing this. I respect your opinion to a hundred percent, but your arguments are just pissing me off. I have nothing more to say.
@KolonKu I think the underlying assumption is that most people who are so upset by the delay of an update for a fourteen year old game that they come to a message board to vent in caustic tones of writing are also likely to have frequented the same message board a few times prior to the announcement. If not, then it is a bummer that you were let down. I'm sure that wasn't their intent. But most of us here choose to believe that they are doing the best they can under the circumstances.
Nobody is saying you must be happy about the delay. I am not frolicking giddily at the idea myself.
Nobody is saying you must believe their late-breaking announcement was welcome, well-timed, or professional. I'm a little perplexed by it myself. (I'm even more perplexed that they even announced a date at all.)
The message, I think, is "shit happens, especially in game development." This is not worth the hate and vitriol, or the accusations of moral transgression by the developers. It's just a thing that happened and there's not much you can do to change it.
@Treyolen Does it matter how old the original game is, or are you trying to justify your opinion by adding that fact to your post? It doesn't matter how old the original game is; BGEE is a product like any other.
You must understand, I am not upset about the delay in any way exept for the fact that it came three days before the release date and that there never was any real explanation to why or apologies. I'm writing this because I can't agree with people who refuse to let us express our disappointment and have the strangest arguments to back their opinion up.
I agree with the rest you write though, it is a bummer that those people were let down. It wasn't Beamdogs intent. But they could have handled it much more profesionally.
Edit: Let me ask you something else. Even if you reguarly visited the boards before the anouncement of the delay, do you agree that people should have foreseen some kind of delay and thus reacted to it "in time"? If that's the case, I want you to think about how that sounds one more time before you post.
@KolonKu The point about the age of the game was in response to your assertion that people may have not been to this forum beforehand. I think you would find a significant statistical overlap between people emotionally invested enough to get that upset by a delay and people who were already on this board. You are correct that a product is a product. But in this industry products are delayed often enough that there is a reasonable expectation that it may happen at any time.
It was becoming more and more apparent that not all was right in the BG:EE world as we got closer to the release date and the Pre Download thread got longer and longer. It isn't any customer's job to forecast shipping dates. But before I scheduled a vacation I would have read the tea leaves a little more.
I'm not blaming any customer here, but a little perspective would be nice. Civil complaining is always acceptable. But the level of vitriol and anger in here is over the top at times. If you come to the home of a games fan boys and scream about the devs you should probably expect a little push back.
Everyone is saying how great it is that there is a delay. In you heart you know it to be false and you create justifications for why this is okay. Stop being apologists for poor execution. A delay like this should have been seen for weeks now, NOT when release was a mere four days away. If I could I would get my money back; so if you know how I can get it, respond so that I might get my refund.
I gotta admit i side with the OP. I'm really happy i didn't pre-order this game like i wanted to and held out. I've been pre-ordering A LOT of games lately and the one's that don't offer an alpha/beta or some sort of incentive i stay away from now. 2 bucks off a 20 dollar game.... I passed (Baldur's Gate is by far one of my favorite fantasy settings I'd rather the devs get my full 20 bucks honestly for reviving this classic). I think it would be nice if the people that pre-ordered got to play some sort of beta, but in the end it is 20 bucks and only a couple months. Developers shouldn't release before ready.... but wow was it disappointing to come here ready to buy the game... seeing the pre-order still up and noticing November. I'll be back then looking forward to the eventual release even though I'm quite disappointed today. First world problems..... aren't they great!
Sorry, not agree : I preorder a lot, and if there is a delay, generally, I'm not aware of this only 4 days before the launch...
And I didn't know I need to follow so closely a game which is only a remake... And here, I'm quite a nice guy just saying that : I know some french magazine much more acidic in theirs remarks...
But ok, I like too much crpg...
The last game preordered with a huge delay, was... Dungeon Defenders!!!! Ouch, this one got really delays...
TL2 on the contrario : no real delay given at the preorder, and finally make it in times
No, in my experience, delay happens, but not so much and not generally when a precise date is given...
And, concerning others remarks you made, I found much more unbearable peoples from the side of the BG "apologists" : when someone create a topic to complain about the delay and the manners it was handled, what the reason to come in it just for flame, insults (barely disguised) and denial???
Why???
Very nice fanbase we got here : I was hopping for more mature behaviors on a forum for a "classic' crpg.
If someone don't like a topic, don't come in it and participate instead to the one more akin to your tastes.
Comments
Shut up.
All in all the reasoning behind the delay was made very clear. The game needs more work- bugs need to be fixed and content needs to be fully implemented. Anyone angry enough about this change can just get a refund and be on their way. There is clearly no mob of discontented pitchfork-wielding townsfolk that can easily be rallied here, and trying to do so is just sad.
The real question could be asked ( and at this point I find it a bit facetious as the OP distanced himself from the conversation around page 2, but I'm just writing out my thoughts as they come ) - what do you want? Holding Overhaul "accountable" for the delay does what for you? In what way do you do that, that creates a positive result ( for you, or for anyone else )? Inciting people to become angry does what for you?
You have two real options, wait until the game is finished and enjoy it, or get a refund and be on your way. Complaining about the situation does nothing for you or anyone else. Your negative feelings will do nothing good for the game you wanted to play. There are plenty of better uses for your energy and time.
But I don't think the calls from fans to stifle complaints are fair. I own a small business and if a customer is legitimately dissatisfied about something I might have done better (yet to happen, happily), I would
1) be all ears
2) communicate well in response
3) genuinely respect the consumer's valid concerns regardless of their tone
4) not make any excuses
4) apologize where appropriate
5) work hard to rectify any problems to make them happy.
So from my vantage I see nothing wrong whatsoever with customers voicing their discontent about this 11th hour postponement. In order for a business to operate successfully, the owner should always remain open to negative feedback, and use it constructively to improve operations and the product.
The only valid complaint is how late the notice came, as people actually made plans to use their vacation time around the release of the game. (I didn't, btw.) That's not to be criticized, I don't think. Since for Beamdog, if anything, it's a measure of just how important this product is to fans. Customers who scheduled vacation time for the game's release obviously took something of a risk. (No doubt the fine print for pre-order specifies that the ship date may be subject to change.) But IIRC the one or two communications we received on the forum about release date was that it was on track.
Anyway, by now I think most customers acknowledge that the game must be released according to a high standard. Beamdog's entire future rides on this game, and they will likely go under if they release a bug-ridden BG:EE. The only real issue is the lateness of the postponement... Okay, well, that and also the glaring deficits in showcasing features, and in general how the PR/marketing is being handled.
From a business model perspective there's nothing wrong at all with customers venting. The business should respond earnestly and authentically, and make things right.
That said, there will be a point at which the complaints will amount to flogging a dead horse. We're probably not quite there yet, though. After a few weeks perhaps.
You didn't need to be on social media to see this slip coming a mile away. They didn't get the early download going for pre-order customers. They barely released any screenshots. There were no advance reviews. No gameplay video was released. These are all signs...
With that said, some people are taking this way too seriously. You're coming off as spoiled brats way in over their heads, trying to lecture people on business and marketing and the industry and life and the universe and everything. Chill. If the worst thing to happen to you lately is that you can't play the new Baldur's Gate, take a moment to reflect on how fortunate you are.
That, and I really wanted to type "hyperbole horse."
Of course there's value to venting one's spleen only up to a point. And at this stage it's a hair's breadth from becoming a dead horse. I would grant you that.
I do agree that the subject is becoming a dead horse, though. Makes me think people will be discussing this even after the game is out.
"I'm unable to enjoy BG:EE because Overhaul broke my heart when they failed to deliver the game on September 18th."
I only have one quibble with Beamdog's handling of the matter, and I keep it in perspective. I'm still their staunch supporter. I think one of my character flaws is that it's hard for me not to get in the last word, especially if I believe that I'm right. I've said more than need be said on the subject. So I should stop already. I just think there's no harm for others to vent a little, and for Beamdog to use the experience constructively to improve. That's all. Peace to all.
On the other hand, sometimes people do need a breath of cool air and a re-orienting of perspective. This is especially true on the Internet. Some people may have seen the comments in this thread and said, "You know what? Maybe I'm overreacting and Beamdog is NOT just like Hitler."
@Hertz or maybe we will just reveal our true colors as apologists and fanboys and sheep.
If I understand correctly, you take it for granted that every upset person are actively hanging around the official forums often enough to be able to tell that the game wasn't ready from looking at the previews.. AND being able to foresee the delay because of that reason..? Thus making their arguments invalid?
You're lucky the forum rules prevent me from writing exactly what I think of that.
As for Trent, I like that instead of apoligizing to the fans and to those who pre-ordered, he started joking about the delay on his official Twitter account. I mean, that's just too funny, you know.
That'll surely calm the fans down.
Our views are so different that it's totally pointless to even go on discussing this. I respect your opinion to a hundred percent, but your arguments are just pissing me off. I have nothing more to say.
Nobody is saying you must believe their late-breaking announcement was welcome, well-timed, or professional. I'm a little perplexed by it myself. (I'm even more perplexed that they even announced a date at all.)
The message, I think, is "shit happens, especially in game development." This is not worth the hate and vitriol, or the accusations of moral transgression by the developers. It's just a thing that happened and there's not much you can do to change it.
You must understand, I am not upset about the delay in any way exept for the fact that it came three days before the release date and that there never was any real explanation to why or apologies. I'm writing this because I can't agree with people who refuse to let us express our disappointment and have the strangest arguments to back their opinion up.
I agree with the rest you write though, it is a bummer that those people were let down. It wasn't Beamdogs intent. But they could have handled it much more profesionally.
Edit: Let me ask you something else. Even if you reguarly visited the boards before the anouncement of the delay, do you agree that people should have foreseen some kind of delay and thus reacted to it "in time"? If that's the case, I want you to think about how that sounds one more time before you post.
It was becoming more and more apparent that not all was right in the BG:EE world as we got closer to the release date and the Pre Download thread got longer and longer. It isn't any customer's job to forecast shipping dates. But before I scheduled a vacation I would have read the tea leaves a little more.
I'm not blaming any customer here, but a little perspective would be nice. Civil complaining is always acceptable. But the level of vitriol and anger in here is over the top at times. If you come to the home of a games fan boys and scream about the devs you should probably expect a little push back.
People need to keep it civil. The reason to why I even posted here was because I was disappointed in @Ward.
Here is a quote from myself at the start of the topic: However, if people are making each other angry by telling them to get a hobby etc, the verbal fight will keep going forever.
Sorry, not agree : I preorder a lot, and if there is a delay, generally, I'm not aware of this only 4 days before the launch...
And I didn't know I need to follow so closely a game which is only a remake... And here, I'm quite a nice guy just saying that : I know some french magazine much more acidic in theirs remarks...
But ok, I like too much crpg...
The last game preordered with a huge delay, was... Dungeon Defenders!!!! Ouch, this one got really delays...
TL2 on the contrario : no real delay given at the preorder, and finally make it in times
No, in my experience, delay happens, but not so much and not generally when a precise date is given...
And, concerning others remarks you made, I found much more unbearable peoples from the side of the BG "apologists" : when someone create a topic to complain about the delay and the manners it was handled, what the reason to come in it just for flame, insults (barely disguised) and denial???
Why???
Very nice fanbase we got here : I was hopping for more mature behaviors on a forum for a "classic' crpg.
If someone don't like a topic, don't come in it and participate instead to the one more akin to your tastes.
That will do the job
ok, my opinion, as always...
Nice day
JPR out!