i find if i ignore all the "controversy" of the topic itself, there is precious few things i can think of to comment on specifics of a gay romance. dynamic may (or may not) be a bit different than a straight relationship (if we presume traditional roles), but i can think of nothing i didn't said already or that would require special attention. it's just a normal relationship with all the ups and downs included. and that is the point in the end.
so, anyone has any ideas for a gay romance? i saw in some other thread some suggestions and potential backstories suggestions for mods that were interesting ( @TenYaiba , @LadyRhian help please? ).
@Shandyr... mimic my words isn't a inteligent act dude... "this isn't a question of moral conflict"...? I can laught but instead i will let this opening for you to express your thoughts better instead of poorly copy another person's post.
Romance is a gender, gay romance is a specie. Until today i don't know people that are agains relationship, only kinds of relationships, but please, present me your thoughts.
@LadyRhian no matter how you see this, homossexualism isn't a natural behavior, while it's a common an acceptable behavior by society. I will surely get a thousand of flames for this post and by all means i'm not saying that being gay is wrong, it's just a patch that diverts from natural order.
Not being natural doesn't mean that isn't good, human society diverts from nature in almost everything. I would have no problem with a guy kissing another on TV, movies... but a man over another doing sex is offensive to people that don't like it and i would like to see someone explaining to a 5 year children what a guy was doing over another. The fact that the global media become obscene and violent can't justify this kind of act.
We can't destroy a thousand years culture instantly, this kind of change take time. Force this kind of change too fast can give the worst of the results, we're already on the Glee age, things are A LOT different than what happened 20 years ago, when this kind of thread would not even exist.
"Not Natural"? Um, no, that's not true. The Book "Biological Exuberance" by Bruce Bagemihl explores many species in which homosexual behavior is documented. Bonobos are just one of the better-known examples with both male and female homosexual behavior. If this behavior isn't "natural", you are going to have to explain why it happens in so many species, from sheep to dolphins to Primates, bird like Black Swans, Gulls, and animals like Bison, Elephants, Lions... even fruit flies. So, yes, as I understand the word "natural" (i.e. occurring in nature), it is indeed "natural".
i find if i ignore all the "controversy" of the topic itself, there is precious few things i can think of to comment on specifics of a gay romance. dynamic may (or may not) be a bit different than a straight relationship (if we presume traditional roles), but i can think of nothing i didn't said already or that would require special attention. it's just a normal relationship with all the ups and downs included. and that is the point in the end.
so, anyone has any ideas for a gay romance? i saw in some other thread some suggestions and potential backstories suggestions for mods that were interesting ( @TenYaiba , @LadyRhian help please? ).
Sure. Nautral Evil male Necromancer for men. This mage has an almost obsessive interest in how bodies work and somehow making them "better" (for various different iterations of "better"). His rather cold and clinical atttitude covers an almost-little boy glee in cutting things apart to understand how they work. Sadly, things never seem to survive this process, which is why he is a Necromancer. He's fascinated by the CHARNAME as a Bhaalspawn, and wants to understand how Bhaal's essence works, but he's also afraid of losing that, so isn't quite as aggressive in going after CHARNAME with the cutting open. Caressing CHARNAME's open wounds gets him dangerously excited, though, and his spells have more to do with hurting and causing blood loss than anything else. He has a "familliar" of sorts, an animated bird skeleton that sits on his shoulder clacking its beak at everything.
@Maciak87 okay, so the terms literal translation does not accurately describe the people the word is used to describe. no studies to prove such condition. point taken.
does this justify the way "homophobes" act or the stuff that is being said? does it lessen the hatred or bigotry? discrimination? no. everything remains the same it seems.
@Maciak87 acknowledged. i obviously don't share your sentiment, but it not important. we are discussing the game after all and i'm sure one more "disgusting deviancy" in the game among many other should not be a problem.
edit- and before we equal homosexuality to zoo and pedophilia, homosexual relationship consists of willing participants that do not harm each other (at least not more then in any variant of heterosexual relationship). important difference.
@LadyRhian LOL! imagine all the complex development of character and relationship only to end it on a brief notice like that . good thing resurrection spell is around.
@trinit In defense of zoophilia I know a friend who is with a goat for a few years now. I have to assure you that they feel very comfortable in each other’s company and they don’t harm each other. Please be more tolerant in the future – you are probably happy in relationship with your gay partner and let my friend be happy in relationship with his goat.
Ps. I’m just joking but look where the conversation goes when you start talking about homosexuality ;/
My 2 cents: I'm ok with the possibility of having gay romances, no problems with that. What I would avoid is something too "in your face" and absurd like the one in Solaufein's mod... Where I felt like a bastard for telling him "No Sola, I'm sorry..."
@Rush_that_speaks yes, look where it got us, better to not talk about it, huh? i didn't bring up the topic, someone else decided that fetishes and sexual orientations should be packed in one bundle.
besides i am glad the goat is enjoying the relationship it entered on it's own free will, and even more glad it was able to express how much it enjoys the relationship. just joking. :P
@trinint Free will is illusory my friend and now I think you just discriminate beings based on their species and intelligence. Goat can’t speak but believe me, she can express her great joy as well as all mammals can and she doesn’t run away even though farm is wide open all the time : )
Ps. I’m just joking but look how it all is so relative ;p
@Rush_that_speaks yes, relativism is a slippery slope. i admit i do discriminate between fetish and sexuality. homosexuality is not just having sex and being joyous, my friend, it is two sided relationship.
no matter how much you caricature the relative views, in terms of human experience you cannot equal relationship between human beings (communicating in same language and same set of emotions) and relationship between human being and animal (unable to communicate within societal environment and only a limited set of responses, subjected to relative interpretation) or even inanimate object, for example (that exists). i'm not passing moral judgement or saying your friend has "lesser" relationship, maybe he has it more intense than most same-species, but i'm distinguishing between the two. interesting thing to notice is how you apply more and more human characteristic on a said goat- the zoophiliacs usually do the same.
on the same token- what about interspecies romances in mass effect? should garrus be zoophilic variant of a lizard? or tali of a amphibian? no, right? they are not human AT ALL, but they have enough human characteristics to be identifiable within our boundaries of communication and to return the favor, to top it. they are considered viable relationships.
i'm against any cruelty toward animals, although i do not equal them on human level. they are not lower, they are different. but if the goats ever rise and demand equal treatment in human society, i will be with them.
are all bi/gay athiest? I've honestly never heard that so it's not a mocking question, just curious.
Anyways, I know that they gave gays 'civil unions' and then didn't do anything to give them certain rights of marriage. As far as tax breaks, no, don't think that would apply to gay's because the tax breaks are there to encourage reproduction. Since gays can't reproduce, the tax breaks don't apply. I also think that it's the fact that marriage has always been defined as a union between a man and a woman. I think that's where the issue honestly comes from.
Thus, equal rights for a seemingly unequal partnership, in that gays can't have children on their own. I know about adoption, but those kids are already alive. A child isn't being produced (i know that sounds bad, but not sure how else to state it). Thus, marriage between gays would have to allow the same tax breaks to be considered fair, but would be unfair/unequal.
This is my understanding of why marriages have tax breaks. I have done some research on the matter and that's the answer i found. If anyone can show me otherwise, please do so.
The scary thing about this thread is that it's the most active one since the delay announcement, excluding the announcement thread itself.
Gay people want a romance, not a big thing. We're talking love between pixels here people.
I'm surprised that the moderators haven't locked this thread, as it should be.
Baldur's Gate is a roleplaying game with characters obsessed with gods, death, revenge and miniature giant space hamsters, and some people still find a same sex relation hard to imagine...
@Bjjorick No all lesbian and gay and bi are not atheist, but many argument used against them are religion based... 2: I'm on a lesbian relationship... and i have a baby... never heard of assisted reproduction? And adoption is better than to have a kid rot in orphan house (Don't know the english term sorry) If they adopt they are raising a child, it's not them who made it, but they raise it and it's not less expensive you know too
That is nice, a progressive church, just wish the bigs one do the sames
I had a good experience in the Presbyterian church, but I don't think it is a terrible thing that many others are more bound to the literal Bible text.
I just wish they were consistent about it. I.e., if people use an Old Testament verse condemning homosexuality to support condemnation of homosexuality today then be sure to follow the old testament verses requiring forgiveness of debts (like Deuteronomy 15-1, 2) or not interbreeding cattle or eating thereof (Leviticus 19-19) or don't eat fruit from trees for 4 years (Levicus 19-23, 24) or kill all the children who curse at their parents (Leviticus 20-9) or kill all adulterers (Leviticus 20-10), etc. The day they live by all these provisions I am content that they aren't cherry-picking the scripture to satisfy a prejudice and while I may not choose to be a part of that community then at least I can admire the honesty of their conviction. What chops my hide is when I see something like a politician condemning homosexuality while palling around with a fellow politician on his 3rd marriage which just reveals the homosexuality as a personal prejudice, a political tool, or both rather than an honest embracing of a set of religious values.
ahhh yeah, i did hear about that, sorry. but for me, it's hard to trust much of the media anymore since they seem to care more about getting hits to their sites with not completely honest but over the top stories, then with truthful and ethical practices. i'm still looking for some good sites that i feel i can trust, but everyone is biased, everyone of us, no matter how small the bias. Why i try to do my own research
The scary thing about this thread is that it's the most active one since the delay announcement, excluding the announcement thread itself.
Gay people want a romance, not a big thing. We're talking love between pixels here people.
I'm surprised that the moderators haven't locked this thread, as it should be.
Baldur's Gate is a roleplaying game with characters obsessed with gods, death, revenge and miniature giant space hamsters, and some people still find a same sex relation hard to imagine...
actually, as far as the mods locking this thread, this is pure speculation, but i have two theories. 1. it gives us a distraction from the delay (this is the least likely in my mind)
2. the mods are mostly proud of how we've handled this hot topic converstaion with minimal crying/name calling and try to display facts on both sides of the arguements as best as we can, even if we don't agree with each other. I really hope it's the 2nd one, but only the mods know for sure.
Let's check the term, shall we? Homophobia. Phobia - derived from Old Greek "phobos"; an unnatural and unconditional fear of something. Thus, homophobia - an unconditional fear of sodomites. A term invented by gay activists in the 1970s, no psychiatric studies exist proving the existence of such a condition.
Well, no, actually, this is just wrong all over.
Firstly, medical psychopathology does not attempt to classify every possible kind of phobia. Many are specifically documented, but a clinical diagnosis of 'specific phobia' can be for a pathological and irrational fear of more or less anything.
Secondly, clinical psychologists do not have any prescriptive power over language and the use of the greek suffix predates medical classification of phobias. Thus there is no reason why the application of "phobia" as a suffix needs to be backed up by medical evidence, especially considering that it is being used in the context of an attitude rather than a medical condition. Indeed, the term is well documented not just in dictionaries but in some countries' laws.
Thirdly, your slavish adherence to etymology fails. 'Homo' doesn't mean gay, it means 'the same', so if you're going to get all anal about it (lulz), homophobia would mean something like fear of similarity or things that are the same. That's just language. It doesn't always follow the rules and, once a term has gained sufficient semantic capital, it's too late to go around complaining that it doesn't mean what you want it to mean.
@salieri only thing i can say about homophobia is that it's thrown around WAAAAAAAAAAY too often.
I have an irrational fear of spiders. If i walk into something, i do what's called the 'spider dance' where i'm hopping around on one leg then the other (to shake off the spider) while slapping and hitting myself all over my body to 'squash' whatever may be there. If i later find out it was a piece of pine straw, i still worry if i spider was on the pine straw. Come from growing up with alot of banana spiders in the yard, and walking into their webs, giant spider on me, the bites hurt *BAD* for a few days. Not fun. I have a phobia of spiders.
I see a gay/bi/homosexual and i'm hi, how you doing. I may not agree with it, but it's not my choice. it's their life. I don't have a gay/bi/homo dance. I honestly can't say i'm afraid of a gay/bi anymore then any other person. I'm not afraid of people, but i'm never comfortable around anyone, except my wife and sons. I'm asocial.
I have seen homophobia before, and to be honest, i'd be defending the gay person because they don't deserve to be treated like a monster any more then a smoker does, etc. If i feel it's a sin, that's my choice, just as smoking and other things are considered sins, but that doesn't mean that the person is bad or wrong or horrible. But i've seen people who argue that they don't agree with it labelled as a bigot or homophobe and that's one thing i don't agree with. And i use the term homophobia because that's what i've heard people use. Not that it has any special meaning.
is there a fear/phobia of posting short, meaningful, articulate messages on the net? If so, i might have that one. The way phobias are named, it would probably be something like aduckaphobia. ahhh well, /end rant.....(for now)
@Bjjorick The Tax breaks a couple gets are for RAISING a family, not conceiving a child. They are meant to, insofar as why they were implemented, make it easier for a middle class family to afford having a family, especially if they have more than one child. Married couples who foster children but do not conceive get the same tax breaks, so I'm not sure why you'd want to disavow a gay couple who adopts the same breaks, especially since straight couples who NEVER have kids but get married get the breaks as if they have children too. Just an FYI.
Also it's not a lifestyle. There are sexual deviants who have sex due to psychological reasons, and some of those are homo-erotic encounters, but do not confuse that kind of behavior with a person who is BORN gay...the fact of the matter is the hormonal balance of a person who is gay is different than that of a straight person due to the fact that the Hypothalamus (which passively dictates breathing regulation and sex drive via hormone creation) in a gay person is shaped a lot more like that of the opposite sex.
IE: They did an epidemiological study going back over 50+ years in the 90's where by doing autopsies this was revealed to be true 100% of the time. This part of the brain more closely resembles the other sex if you are born gay. It's a genetic deviation, that happens to all mammals. I was born Bi-polar...similar deal my brain has fewer Dopamine receptors. But it's genetic. I can't really do much about it.
As far as your comment on News Media. The New York times is one of the country's oldest News Papers with a historical pedigree on the line. As long as you stay away from opinion pieces you'll be fine. It's talking heads who ruin news media in modern times, not journalists.
A significant communication problem is that moral disgust is such a strong feeling that even an optional/non explicit gay romance in a video game makes some react strongly. And because they get such a visceral sense of disgust, they feel that you are shoving it in their faces. When people like that say, 'Just keep it to yourself, don't shove it in my face", they really feel like a gay pride parade in a city they don't live in being covered for 5 seconds on the local news is shoving it in their faces. They just want it to go away and anyone mentioning it seems intentionally provocative to them.
Personally, I think being easily offended is a sign of weakness, and I am not just talking about being offended by gays who are not closeted, but that is another discussion.
I went to either Catholic or Evangelical schools from 1st-12th grade, and it was very apparent that they got mad at someone who reminded them that gays existed; they just wanted to forget about it as much as possible.
And having my wedding almost cratered because I let my sister bring her girlfriend really drove home how they just want to never have to think about such an icky thing, and will lash out at anyone who bursts that bubble.
Comments
so, anyone has any ideas for a gay romance? i saw in some other thread some suggestions and potential backstories suggestions for mods that were interesting ( @TenYaiba , @LadyRhian help please?
i wonder how things would develop between those two, i don't play evil usually, but when i do... :MEME:.
i also imagine slayer avatar would be considered a physical improvement?
okay, so the terms literal translation does not accurately describe the people the word is used to describe. no studies to prove such condition. point taken.
does this justify the way "homophobes" act or the stuff that is being said? does it lessen the hatred or bigotry? discrimination? no. everything remains the same it seems.
edit- and before we equal homosexuality to zoo and pedophilia, homosexual relationship consists of willing participants that do not harm each other (at least not more then in any variant of heterosexual relationship). important difference.
Ps. I’m just joking but look where the conversation goes when you start talking about homosexuality ;/
What I would avoid is something too "in your face" and absurd like the one in Solaufein's mod...
Where I felt like a bastard for telling him "No Sola, I'm sorry..."
besides i am glad the goat is enjoying the relationship it entered on it's own free will, and even more glad it was able to express how much it enjoys the relationship. just joking. :P
Ps. I’m just joking but look how it all is so relative ;p
no matter how much you caricature the relative views, in terms of human experience you cannot equal relationship between human beings (communicating in same language and same set of emotions) and relationship between human being and animal (unable to communicate within societal environment and only a limited set of responses, subjected to relative interpretation) or even inanimate object, for example (that exists). i'm not passing moral judgement or saying your friend has "lesser" relationship, maybe he has it more intense than most same-species, but i'm distinguishing between the two. interesting thing to notice is how you apply more and more human characteristic on a said goat- the zoophiliacs usually do the same.
on the same token- what about interspecies romances in mass effect? should garrus be zoophilic variant of a lizard? or tali of a amphibian? no, right? they are not human AT ALL, but they have enough human characteristics to be identifiable within our boundaries of communication and to return the favor, to top it. they are considered viable relationships.
i'm against any cruelty toward animals, although i do not equal them on human level. they are not lower, they are different. but if the goats ever rise and demand equal treatment in human society, i will be with them.
are all bi/gay athiest? I've honestly never heard that so it's not a mocking question, just curious.
Anyways, I know that they gave gays 'civil unions' and then didn't do anything to give them certain rights of marriage. As far as tax breaks, no, don't think that would apply to gay's because the tax breaks are there to encourage reproduction. Since gays can't reproduce, the tax breaks don't apply. I also think that it's the fact that marriage has always been defined as a union between a man and a woman. I think that's where the issue honestly comes from.
Thus, equal rights for a seemingly unequal partnership, in that gays can't have children on their own. I know about adoption, but those kids are already alive. A child isn't being produced (i know that sounds bad, but not sure how else to state it). Thus, marriage between gays would have to allow the same tax breaks to be considered fair, but would be unfair/unequal.
This is my understanding of why marriages have tax breaks. I have done some research on the matter and that's the answer i found. If anyone can show me otherwise, please do so.
Gay people want a romance, not a big thing.
We're talking love between pixels here people.
I'm surprised that the moderators haven't locked this thread, as it should be.
Baldur's Gate is a roleplaying game with characters obsessed with gods, death, revenge and miniature giant space hamsters, and some people still find a same sex relation hard to imagine...
No all lesbian and gay and bi are not atheist, but many argument used against them are religion based...
2: I'm on a lesbian relationship... and i have a baby... never heard of assisted reproduction? And adoption is better than to have a kid rot in orphan house (Don't know the english term sorry) If they adopt they are raising a child, it's not them who made it, but they raise it and it's not less expensive you know too
For example, the Presbyterian Church now officially allows homosexuals to be ordained.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/us/11presbyterian.html?_r=0
I just wish they were consistent about it. I.e., if people use an Old Testament verse condemning homosexuality to support condemnation of homosexuality today then be sure to follow the old testament verses requiring forgiveness of debts (like Deuteronomy 15-1, 2) or not interbreeding cattle or eating thereof (Leviticus 19-19) or don't eat fruit from trees for 4 years (Levicus 19-23, 24) or kill all the children who curse at their parents (Leviticus 20-9) or kill all adulterers (Leviticus 20-10), etc. The day they live by all these provisions I am content that they aren't cherry-picking the scripture to satisfy a prejudice and while I may not choose to be a part of that community then at least I can admire the honesty of their conviction. What chops my hide is when I see something like a politician condemning homosexuality while palling around with a fellow politician on his 3rd marriage which just reveals the homosexuality as a personal prejudice, a political tool, or both rather than an honest embracing of a set of religious values.
2. the mods are mostly proud of how we've handled this hot topic converstaion with minimal crying/name calling and try to display facts on both sides of the arguements as best as we can, even if we don't agree with each other. I really hope it's the 2nd one, but only the mods know for sure.
Firstly, medical psychopathology does not attempt to classify every possible kind of phobia. Many are specifically documented, but a clinical diagnosis of 'specific phobia' can be for a pathological and irrational fear of more or less anything.
Secondly, clinical psychologists do not have any prescriptive power over language and the use of the greek suffix predates medical classification of phobias. Thus there is no reason why the application of "phobia" as a suffix needs to be backed up by medical evidence, especially considering that it is being used in the context of an attitude rather than a medical condition. Indeed, the term is well documented not just in dictionaries but in some countries' laws.
Thirdly, your slavish adherence to etymology fails. 'Homo' doesn't mean gay, it means 'the same', so if you're going to get all anal about it (lulz), homophobia would mean something like fear of similarity or things that are the same. That's just language. It doesn't always follow the rules and, once a term has gained sufficient semantic capital, it's too late to go around complaining that it doesn't mean what you want it to mean.
only thing i can say about homophobia is that it's thrown around WAAAAAAAAAAY too often.
I have an irrational fear of spiders. If i walk into something, i do what's called the 'spider dance' where i'm hopping around on one leg then the other (to shake off the spider) while slapping and hitting myself all over my body to 'squash' whatever may be there. If i later find out it was a piece of pine straw, i still worry if i spider was on the pine straw. Come from growing up with alot of banana spiders in the yard, and walking into their webs, giant spider on me, the bites hurt *BAD* for a few days. Not fun. I have a phobia of spiders.
I see a gay/bi/homosexual and i'm hi, how you doing. I may not agree with it, but it's not my choice. it's their life. I don't have a gay/bi/homo dance. I honestly can't say i'm afraid of a gay/bi anymore then any other person. I'm not afraid of people, but i'm never comfortable around anyone, except my wife and sons. I'm asocial.
I have seen homophobia before, and to be honest, i'd be defending the gay person because they don't deserve to be treated like a monster any more then a smoker does, etc. If i feel it's a sin, that's my choice, just as smoking and other things are considered sins, but that doesn't mean that the person is bad or wrong or horrible. But i've seen people who argue that they don't agree with it labelled as a bigot or homophobe and that's one thing i don't agree with. And i use the term homophobia because that's what i've heard people use. Not that it has any special meaning.
is there a fear/phobia of posting short, meaningful, articulate messages on the net? If so, i might have that one. The way phobias are named, it would probably be something like aduckaphobia. ahhh well, /end rant.....(for now)
Also it's not a lifestyle. There are sexual deviants who have sex due to psychological reasons, and some of those are homo-erotic encounters, but do not confuse that kind of behavior with a person who is BORN gay...the fact of the matter is the hormonal balance of a person who is gay is different than that of a straight person due to the fact that the Hypothalamus (which passively dictates breathing regulation and sex drive via hormone creation) in a gay person is shaped a lot more like that of the opposite sex.
IE: They did an epidemiological study going back over 50+ years in the 90's where by doing autopsies this was revealed to be true 100% of the time. This part of the brain more closely resembles the other sex if you are born gay. It's a genetic deviation, that happens to all mammals. I was born Bi-polar...similar deal my brain has fewer Dopamine receptors. But it's genetic. I can't really do much about it.
As far as your comment on News Media. The New York times is one of the country's oldest News Papers with a historical pedigree on the line. As long as you stay away from opinion pieces you'll be fine. It's talking heads who ruin news media in modern times, not journalists.
When people like that say, 'Just keep it to yourself, don't shove it in my face", they really feel like a gay pride parade in a city they don't live in being covered for 5 seconds on the local news is shoving it in their faces.
They just want it to go away and anyone mentioning it seems intentionally provocative to them.
Personally, I think being easily offended is a sign of weakness, and I am not just talking about being offended by gays who are not closeted, but that is another discussion.
I went to either Catholic or Evangelical schools from 1st-12th grade, and it was very apparent that they got mad at someone who reminded them that gays existed; they just wanted to forget about it as much as possible.
And having my wedding almost cratered because I let my sister bring her girlfriend really drove home how they just want to never have to think about such an icky thing, and will lash out at anyone who bursts that bubble.