@Kitteh_On_A_Cloud I'd have to disagree. Bhaal is a god, and thus beyond such concerns as genetics. He passed on divine energy and nothing more, which is why half-elves and half-orcs breed true when mating with Bhaal. The Bhaalspawn are only related in a poetic sense.
If Bhaal didn't share "genetics", or whatever equivalent is relevant in Faerun, the result would be a clone of the mother. Hence one can assume that regardless of whether Bhaal knocks them up in a physical of spiritual manner, his "Divine Essance" still has an influence on the child's genes. Which means that it's still incest.
Also, I don't see how your half-race example is relevant. Bhaal can take whatever form he wants, he could easily manifest as a half-orc or half-elf to make.a half-elf child. Not to mention that if a human mated with a, for example a half-elf, the child would still be another half-elf. The concept refers to anyone with any kind of manifestations of mixed heritage in them, not just 50/50 people.
In fact it matter, yes. If he's a bhaalspawn, the content for him in ToB will be huge (sarevok could ask for a piece of Dorn's soul instead main char or Imoen's soul). But of course the devs aren't gonna clarify this here.
Fact's would resume to Dorn's past, race, and his link to Gromnir, only that, fact is that Dorn is a fictional character and don't exist also, so let discuss what we want without getting off topic, that's good enough for me.
@kamuizin: I never was able to play Throne of Bhaal because my Shadows of Amn disc broke and didn't get recognized anymore because of a huge scratch on it, so I can't comment on the Bhaalspawn's importance and relevance in Throne of Bhaal. I was just trying to say that maybe we shouldn't start nitpicking, that's all.
Read the bloody story dangit! His father is an orc, and his mother is a human. If Bhaal was any of the two, either he was a pure orc or pure human. He's neither though.
If his father were to be Bhaal, then his mother would be a Half-Orc, it's that obvious. It's godly genetics, what do kids nowadays get taught in schools anyway? -_-
Besides, Oster already said that he's against romances of incestuous nature on Twitter while commenting on Imoen, no?
And don't give me crap that Bhaal could turn into anything he wanted to mate. If I turned the PC into an adamantite golem and Aerie into a Squirrel in the moment of their child's conception, would that make the child a Halfdamantite Squirrel? Nope, it would still make it a winged bastard! (literally)
Dorn knew his father long after Bhaal was dead, his father beat his mother when she tried to protect Dorn... This seems pretty open and shut. Just because Dorn likes to murder doesn't mean his dads the god of murder
@Arkynomicon Because, no matter what shape Bhaal takes, the Bhaalspawn is the same race as his/her mother. Bhaal contributes no genetic matter, no matter what shape he takes on. He only contributes his essence. Since Dorn's mother is a human... he can't be a Bhaalspawn. Because then Dorn would be a full human.
@Arkynomicon Because, no matter what shape Bhaal takes, the Bhaalspawn is the same race as his/her mother. Bhaal contributes no genetic matter, no matter what shape he takes on. He only contributes his essence. Since Dorn's mother is a human... he can't be a Bhaalspawn. Because then Dorn would be a full human.
While I'm still not believing that Dorn is a B-spawn, I can't think of any reason to assume the above is correct. What makes you think so?
@Scriver You mean "other than CHARNAME" if you aren't intending to imply that Dorn is one as well. That's why I am attempting to prevent the inevitable "We haven't seen it, so it must be so!" that too many people on this board seem to fall prey to. They'll speculate that Bhaal can take on the genetics of something he merely takes the appearance of-because we havem't really seen any examples of it. In spells like shapechange, it doesn't alter your genetics, and I honestly doubt Bhaal dropped a Wish spell every time he wanted to procreate.
If Solar wasn't lying (what some people think she did), nearly all Bhaalspawns where collected when born by Bhaal priesthood for the ritual sacrifice he planned, so probally most Bhaalspawns where orphans or not aware of their conditions until the events of Throne of Bhaal expansion set.
I don't think he is a Bhaalspawn simply because the romance option, plus because it would be little weird to mention his orc father in the story if his true father was Bhaal. This discussion about divine genetics in which neither side has any relevant argument for is little ridiculous.
Why is everyone even interested in having an incestuous romance? Why is everyone so *eager* to accept Dorn as a Bhaalspawn goes really well beyond my human thinking... The thought of it is simply disgusting.
Why is everyone even interested in having an incestuous romance? Why is everyone so *eager* to accept Dorn as a Bhaalspawn goes really well beyond my human thinking... The thought of it is simply disgusting.
I don't think that many people are interested in incest... I think they just forgot.
It's kind of a big deal to forget though. Besides, a third Bhaalspawn in the party would cause dramatic changes to the game (for instance, why would Irenicus abduct only the PC and Imoen)
@Scriver You mean "other than CHARNAME" if you aren't intending to imply that Dorn is one as well. That's why I am attempting to prevent the inevitable "We haven't seen it, so it must be so!" that too many people on this board seem to fall prey to. They'll speculate that Bhaal can take on the genetics of something he merely takes the appearance of-because we havem't really seen any examples of it. In spells like shapechange, it doesn't alter your genetics, and I honestly doubt Bhaal dropped a Wish spell every time he wanted to procreate.
Yeah, I had a brainfart and counted Dorn as Bhaalspawn when I wrote that (but if you check out my post history, you can see that I've been disbelieving it since it was brought up). My point is, however, that there simply isn't enough data to conclude either way. It does in my mind come down to two possibilities:
1, A spiritual conception. Like in the Old Book, the woman is impregnated by Bhalls "Divine Spirit". This would leave no "genetic" traces except his Essence. It does raise questions about why the child is not a clone of hers, however.
or 2, A physical conception. Meaning that Bhaal actually appears as an avatar and impregnates the mother. This would, as far as I'm concerned, by , leave genetic traces in the child. I can honestly think of no logical reason a physical avatar would not do that, unless he does not actually fully take that shape. But Bhaal is a god, after all, and so I can't really see why that wouldn't (unless it is somewhere noted in FR lore that they don't), but it certainly wouldn't be because mortal shapechanging spells doesn't work that way.
Now, you can go ahead and believe what you want, of course, but there is no reasonable ground to stand against speculation, as the only non-speculative stance would be "I don't think about it". We don't know how the metaphysics (or metabiologics) work, there are no cases to draw conclusions for in-game, so when you say you want to prevent the "we haven't seen it, so it must be so"... Well, you are yourself follow the line of thought of "we haven't seen anything about it, so it mustn't be so". The conclusion that Dorn is not a Bhaalspawn is easily drawn from practical reasons (they can't change original content and him being a Bhaalspawn would require that), but there is nothing about his Half-Orcitude to his mother's humanitude that gives that conclusion. We do not know if Bhaal leaves genetic information or not. Saying that he does, as well as that he does not, is in light of the lack of any kind of evidence equally speculative. We just have to choose what to believe, so when people want Dorn to be a Bhaalspawn, of course they will choose the theory that gives the most legitimacy to their imagination.
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I'd have to disagree. Bhaal is a god, and thus beyond such concerns as genetics. He passed on divine energy and nothing more, which is why half-elves and half-orcs breed true when mating with Bhaal. The Bhaalspawn are only related in a poetic sense.
Also, I don't see how your half-race example is relevant. Bhaal can take whatever form he wants, he could easily manifest as a half-orc or half-elf to make.a half-elf child. Not to mention that if a human mated with a, for example a half-elf, the child would still be another half-elf. The concept refers to anyone with any kind of manifestations of mixed heritage in them, not just 50/50 people.
Fact's would resume to Dorn's past, race, and his link to Gromnir, only that, fact is that Dorn is a fictional character and don't exist also, so let discuss what we want without getting off topic, that's good enough for me.
If his father were to be Bhaal, then his mother would be a Half-Orc, it's that obvious. It's godly genetics, what do kids nowadays get taught in schools anyway? -_-
Besides, Oster already said that he's against romances of incestuous nature on Twitter while commenting on Imoen, no?
And don't give me crap that Bhaal could turn into anything he wanted to mate. If I turned the PC into an adamantite golem and Aerie into a Squirrel in the moment of their child's conception, would that make the child a Halfdamantite Squirrel? Nope, it would still make it a winged bastard! (literally)
If his father were Bhaal, Dorn would know it. He lived most of his life knowing who his father was.
Discuss.
Thanks for clearing that up.
1, A spiritual conception. Like in the Old Book, the woman is impregnated by Bhalls "Divine Spirit". This would leave no "genetic" traces except his Essence. It does raise questions about why the child is not a clone of hers, however.
or 2, A physical conception. Meaning that Bhaal actually appears as an avatar and impregnates the mother. This would, as far as I'm concerned, by , leave genetic traces in the child. I can honestly think of no logical reason a physical avatar would not do that, unless he does not actually fully take that shape. But Bhaal is a god, after all, and so I can't really see why that wouldn't (unless it is somewhere noted in FR lore that they don't), but it certainly wouldn't be because mortal shapechanging spells doesn't work that way.
Now, you can go ahead and believe what you want, of course, but there is no reasonable ground to stand against speculation, as the only non-speculative stance would be "I don't think about it". We don't know how the metaphysics (or metabiologics) work, there are no cases to draw conclusions for in-game, so when you say you want to prevent the "we haven't seen it, so it must be so"... Well, you are yourself follow the line of thought of "we haven't seen anything about it, so it mustn't be so". The conclusion that Dorn is not a Bhaalspawn is easily drawn from practical reasons (they can't change original content and him being a Bhaalspawn would require that), but there is nothing about his Half-Orcitude to his mother's humanitude that gives that conclusion. We do not know if Bhaal leaves genetic information or not. Saying that he does, as well as that he does not, is in light of the lack of any kind of evidence equally speculative. We just have to choose what to believe, so when people want Dorn to be a Bhaalspawn, of course they will choose the theory that gives the most legitimacy to their imagination.
Well, at least Aliana was, I always concluded that all were therefore :P