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Imoen Romance?

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  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,652
    yeah they are half siblings due to having the same father. we only heard about seravok's adopted mother not the his real one.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    @ThacoBell I see no reason to believe that Bhaal's genetic material and his skattered divinity in his various children has to be one and the same here. Otherwise all Bhaalspawn would be categorized as half-celestial. I mean sure. If Firkraag would pull this off and impregnates all kinds of races while shapeshifting, then all of his children would also be genetically half-dragons as well. But Bhaal specificly engineered his offsprings as a tool for his own resurrection. They are meant to be weak mortals to be gobbled up byb their essence sooner rather than later. Hence SoA's spell-like abilities.

    I guess I could entertain the thought of Bhaal pulling a ' mass virgin birth boom' phenomenon on all of his partners. Which would make all Bhaalspawn basically clones of their mothers. But I can't say I am all too fond of that scenario myself. So I am more inclined in the 'biologically half-sibling with separate divinity gauge' hypothesis. Or BHSwsDG for short. :p

    ThacoBellSittingOnChair
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 1,090
    It's a fantasy universe where the vast majority of the rules are thrown out on a regular basis. I'd say it comes down to whether or not it bothers you. If it does, don't have your PC romance Imoen. If it doesn't? Well, feel free to go for it. Arguing over whether it is "wrong" in this case feels a bit silly.

    Personally? Whether it was incest or not, it would seem weird because the PC and Imoen grew up together. Also, I would rather have Imoen consistently through the game, rather than missing several chapters, so it's a non-issue for me anyway.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Kamigoroshi "I see no reason to believe that Bhaal's genetic material and his skattered divinity in his various children has to be one and the same here."

    The problem here is that the game never differentiates here. It just uses the blanket terms "Bhaal's essence" or "the Taint of Bhaal." Its the only thing marking them as children of Bhaal, and it can apparently be completely removed. This wouldn't be possible in any other scenario than Bhaal's heritage not being physical or genetic.

    "I guess I could entertain the thought of Bhaal pulling a ' mass virgin birth boom' phenomenon on all of his partners. Which would make all Bhaalspawn basically clones of their mothers. But I can't say I am all too fond of that scenario myself. So I am more inclined in the 'biologically half-sibling with separate divinity gauge' hypothesis. Or BHSwsDG for short. :p"

    I'm more thinking that the genetics of whatever Avatar Bhaal chooses to, uh, use in that particular instance. A temporary physical vessel for Bhaal's consciousness.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    The problem here is that the game never differentiates here. It just uses the blanket terms "Bhaal's essence" or "the Taint of Bhaal." Its the only thing marking them as children of Bhaal, and it can apparently be completely removed. This wouldn't be possible in any other scenario than Bhaal's heritage not being physical or genetic.
    Hence why the subject is up for interpretation. One can assume that the divine spark/taint is their very soul. This would explain why Irenicus transplants the player's one into his body. And the fact that all Bhaalspawn souls travel to The Blood Throne - Bhaal's divine realm, and ultimately become his new self. Interestingly enough is that even clerics and other divine casters get claimed by him, no matter the deity they worshipped in life.

    But then there is the clip of Gorion's Ward disintegrating into thin air after dying. So some part of Bhaal's divinity has to reside inside the body as well. Which leads us back again to Bhaal actively knocking up a three dozen partners at least. In the end, we're still on square one in this academic field of game logic. ;)
    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Kamigoroshi "One can assume that the divine spark/taint is their very soul."
    This still doesn't address that the Solar can apparently just take the taint and leave the bhaalspawn completely mortal, and also physically unchanged. So I don't think it can be fully their soul, otherwise losing it at the end of ToB would kill Imoen and charname. Maybe its an evil sauce that covers the soul. Takes up the same space as it, without actually BEING the soul.

    "But then there is the clip of Gorion's Ward disintegrating into thin air after dying. So some part of Bhaal's divinity has to reside inside the body as well."

    Charname's body is also still lying on the ground after that cutscene. So its not literal. What probably happens to prevent resurrection is that the taint carries the soul with it when it goes to the Throne and traps it there. Preventing the res.

    There's just too many contradictions that comes from trying to assume the Bhaal taint it anything but metaphysical.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    This still doesn't address that the Solar can apparently just take the taint and leave the bhaalspawn completely mortal, and also physically unchanged.
    I am actually not so sure this actually is the case. A more plausible explanation would be that the solar renders the claim Bhaal has over the characters merely impotent by 'sealing' the taints connection to the planes. In contrast of 'removing' it completely by splitting up souls and body tissue and whatnot. A solar is a powerful celestial, yes. But I wouldn't exactly call them capable soul surgeons. That's more the field of expertiese of baatezu with their mastery of soul contracts.

    As for the death clip being not literal... sorry, gotta disagree with you here. It is way too visually detailed to be counted as a mere metaphor. Bioware most likely just didn't bother with creating a fitting death animation that only lasts seconds before the screen goes black. Given that other deaths, such as getting charmed by a siren, mazed by a lich, or getting turned into stone by basilisks, would then all require different sprite animations as well as unique cutscenes on top. So they settled for one fitting a normal death instead. Less workload that way.

    All things considered, yeah, I remain true to my hypothesis. Big daddy's watching you, children! :p
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Kamigoroshi "I am actually not so sure this actually is the case. A more plausible explanation would be that the solar renders the claim Bhaal has over the characters merely impotent by 'sealing' the taints connection to the planes."

    Except that you are explicitly giving away your Bhaal essence.

    "Given that other deaths, such as getting charmed by a siren, mazed by a lich, or getting turned into stone by basilisks, would then all require different sprite animations as well as unique cutscenes on top. So they settled for one fitting a normal death instead. Less workload that way."

    If anything, this supports my argument more. The dissolve death CANNOT be true, since it fires for other kinds of death. Its simply a placeholder. Double points for its inability to be canon, since charname canonically never died.
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 1,072
    edited September 2020
    Deities in the Realms are able to voluntarily relinquish their divine essence and become mortal. In rare cases they can also be involuntarily stripped of their divine essence and become mortal, like the Time of Troubles or what happens at Spellhold. The problem is that neither Imoen nor the MC know how to get rid of it, because the Bhaalspawn lack the know-how that divinity normally bestows. While BG2 doesn't explicitly say so, the solar was presumably sent by Ao to fill that gap and let the MC successfully give up the taint if they so chose.

    It sure seems like BioWare's use of the word "taint" is designed to convey the idea of a sin nature that intermingles with the soul without actually being the soul. Just as death is final in a fair number of faiths unless you've first dealt with sin nature, death to Bhaalspawn is final unless you've first dealt with taint.

    That does leave open the question of whether the Solar physically removes your taint like a cosmic vacuum-cleaner or simply renders it inert. To me the vacuum-cleaner analogy seems like a more natural reading of the in-game text but I think either explanation would work reasonably well with the lore.
    Post edited by jsaving on
    ThacoBell
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Except that you are explicitly giving away your Bhaal essence.
    And we still have no way of knowing if we indeed gave it all away, only the dangerous part of it, or in fact got it only sealed. I wouldn't trust a pesky two-legged celestial chicken of telling only truths either here. Especially if it meant that her mission gets so much easier by telling white lies.
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    If anything, this supports my argument more. The dissolve death CANNOT be true, since it fires for other kinds of death. Its simply a placeholder. Double points for its inability to be canon, since charname canonically never died.
    Haha, nope. :)
    “Canon“ itself is but an oxymoron for interactive mediums with multiple endings. Gorion's Ward biting the dust (literally) is as valid an ending as becoming the new God of Murder. Or Imoen getting mauled to death by a bear outside of Candlekeep for that matter. If we'd trust WotC then the Baldur's Gate novels are the One True Canon(tm). But we do not talk about the novels here, now do we?

    Again, dissolvement isn't just hinted at as an metaphor. But clearly shown in all of its gorey glory. So I go with that any day of the week. If your head canon is different from mine on this, so be it. ;)
    Permidion_Stark
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,858
    Off on a bit of a tangent, I have recently installed the B1 NPC mod and in that the writers have definitely decided that Imoen is young, naive and innocent. For one thing she refers to Jaheira as 'auntie' but also there is a conversation initiated by Jaheira who tries to have 'the talk' (the one about the birds and the bees) with Imoen. Ever the pragmatist, Jaheira starts by telling Imoen about tansy (presumably because of its use as an abortifacient though possibly she is suggesting it as an aid to menstruation). However, she soon gives up because Imoen misunderstands and thinks she is talking about cooking not birth control. At this point, Jaheira decides Imoen isn't mature enough and 'the talk' will have to wait.

    So if you are planning to romance Imoen I think I would avoid installing the BGINPC project! https://www.gibberlings3.net/mods/npcs/bg1npc/
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,652
    i have both bg1 npc and ir installed and i consider both canon.

    imoen isnt young she is acting childish there is a difference. she is only like a year younger then cn she isnt some 15 year old.

    by the time of soa she has matured mentally due to what happend to her. so haveing bg1 npc project and ir gives her a nice little arc.

    she starts off naive and not understanding what going on an adventure means. she then gets left behind in sod and has to wait for cn to come back. she feels like it's her fault that she could not protect cn. then the dungeon happens and she tries to protect him for once and gets to spell hold for it. then she gets her soul stolen and finds out she is a bhaal spawn. and the rest of the game especially with ir is dealing with that until the final choice in tob.
    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Kamigoroshi "And we still have no way of knowing if we indeed gave it all away, only the dangerous part of it, or in fact got it only sealed."

    Considering the wording is along the lines of "give up the essence", sealing it would be a very odd choice with that dialog.Since giving something away and locking it away in your possession are opposites.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Considering the wording is along the lines of "give up the essence", sealing it would be a very odd choice with that dialog.Since giving something away and locking it away in your possession are opposites.
    I suppose it comes down to it whenever you regard the solar's words at face value or not. Let's just say I have my doubts. :)
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,278
    I guess I could entertain the thought of Bhaal pulling a ' mass virgin birth boom' phenomenon on all of his partners. Which would make all Bhaalspawn basically clones of their mothers. But I can't say I am all too fond of that scenario myself. So I am more inclined in the 'biologically half-sibling with separate divinity gauge' hypothesis. Or BHSwsDG for short. :p

    It's worth noting that, as an Intermediate deity, it would have been well within Bhaal's power to simply point at some random female he came across and go "Presto! You are now pregnant, courtesy of Bhaal." The deific "Alter Reality" power is certainly capable of doing that, and I think Intermediate deities can use it 3/day. However, given that there are a few conversations in the game (such as the one in ToB where the Solar summons up the shade of your mother) that suggest otherwise, I'm also leaning towards a physical union of some kind.
    KamigoroshiThacoBell
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,652
    people seem to making a bigger deal about the mod then they should just by the premise.

    besides the dreams
    which is bhaal's taint talking to you not imoen.

    alot of the talks with imoen post spellhold focus alot more on the torture and the spellhold incident then it does your feelings for eachother.


    it's not till chapter 6 where it comes into play and even then you don't gotta romance imoen. she still has plenty of talks that arnt romance related. and her role in tob is expanded due to it being more about her role as a bhallspawn.
    ThacoBell
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,278
    Yeah, one thing I really like about the mod is the sheer number of ways it expands Imoen's role and content even if you don't want to romance her. If you're Evil, for instance, you can guide Imoen down a path that "hardens" her by encouraging her to embrace and control the Taint for the power it possesses. You can't make her completely Evil (she's just too sweet for that), but you can mold her into a sort of "the end/your survival justifies the means" person who's willing to tolerate a lot of the things your Evil character does that she wouldn't have before. (And it's possible to screw up doing this too, where Imoen realizes what you're trying to do and flees from you in horror. I THINK this can actually force her to leave the party, but I don't remember for sure.)
    megamike15ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Kamigoroshi Aren't Solar lawful good planar creatures? I don't think creatures from aligned planes can act against alignment. So theoretically, Solar should be one of the most trustworthy of creatures.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    edited September 2020
    @ThacoBell No. Being Lawful Good does not equal trustworthy. More so if their mission target has a vastly different alignment to their own. We also do know that celestials are not incapable of lying per se. That holds true whenever they are fallen or not. As a rule of thumb, I'd say it's rather unhealthy to put your blind trust into any kind of outsider.

    Mortals will never know what their true agendas behind their words are.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    edited September 2020
    @Kamigoroshi Do you have examples of (non fallen) Solar acting against alignment? My understanding of how aligned planes work, is that natives of the plane cannot act against alignment. Like Modrons.
    Rik_Kirtaniya
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Outsiders in general can go against their home plane's nature, yes. Hence why we saw things like Lawful Neutral succubi. Or why celestials can at all become "fallen" in the first place. Even modrons can swim against the currents once they go "rogue". In fact, modrons were only playable in AD&D once they rebelled against the strict system in Mechanus.

    As for the ToB's solar in particular: I'd argue that neither withholding informations, nor telling white lies would influence her alignment. Maybe if it's a chain of outrageous lies carefully intertwined. But that alone still wouldn't make her fallen either.
    ThacoBell
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,652
    lets put it this way. trias from pst is lawful good by default due to being a deva.
    Kamigoroshi
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    megamike15 wrote: »
    lets put it this way. trias from pst is lawful good by default due to being a deva.

    This information means literally nothing to me :D
    megamike15Rik_Kirtaniya
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 1,072
    2nd edition AD&D's Monstrous Manual stipulated that "all" solars, devas, and planetars "are of good alignment" because they perfectly represent good-aligned outer planes. It went on to say they "will neither lie, cheat, attack needlessly, nor steal" and are all "impeccably honorable in all their dealings." You can also see echoes of this in the 3e Monster Manual, which said solars embody goodness and therefore always have the good descriptor and a good alignment.

    The whole point of Chris Avellone creating nonevil succubi and nongood devas in Planescape Torment was to break the rules of the game and then sketch out how such non-legal characters would behave. Trias and Fall-From-Grace are interesting precisely because they aren't legal characters and everyone in the setting knows it.
    megamike15ThacoBell
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,652
    it helps that Fall-From-Grace and Trias are well written characters and not a subversion for the sake of it. throw in Kaelyn the Dove from motb as well.
    jsavingThacoBell
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,278
    As a general rule, Outsiders are living embodiments of the precepts of their home plane; they are literally Good/Evil/Chaos/Law made flesh, so if there was a situation where you DID have a Good succubus or an Evil solar, what would normally happen is that those individuals spontaneously transform into a member of their new Outsider race (perhaps with the assistance of a sympathetic deity or planar power, who might very well have played a role in the shifting of the outsider's belief systems). This is what happened to many of the ruling class of Baator's archdevils, after all. Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Belial, Dispater and Baalzebul were all former fallen angels that were transformed into baatezu when they fell from Mount Celestia and landed in Baator.

    However, given the infinite nature of the Multiverse, there WOULD be some exceptions to this rule, which is how you'd get beings like Fall-from-Grace and Trias. (Kaelyn the Dove is different as she's a half-celestial. As a mortal being, she has free will and the ability to choose her own destiny.) Such creatures would be exceedingly rare, however. Ravel even tells the player that Fall-from-Grace is living an existence of torment by deliberately suppressing her succubus nature, suggesting that she is constantly feeling the urge to seduce and drain mortal males of their life essence, but refuses to act on it, even though it's causing her immense pain. (I guess it'd be like a starving person who can see food all around them yet continues to fast.)
    Kamigoroshimegamike15ThacoBell
  • AerieAerie Member Posts: 226
    I hate Imoen. I abandoned her in SpellHold in my latest run.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,652
    Chris Avellone 's whole thing when making torment is he wanted a game with out the stuff he hated in rpgs. so by doing that he created what would become the style of his games going forward and obsidean in general.
    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Yay! Validation.
    Rik_Kirtaniya
  • BrockBrock Member Posts: 9
    I would like to play Mod, but it is not recommended in connection with EET
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