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UK EU membership referendum

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  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Mr2150 said:

    I don't love 'the French' but then 'the French' means nothing to me... I know French people who are lovely and I respect and care for them. But I also know British people like that. And Irish. And Germans. And Finnish... and ...


    I'm not aware of one future 'utopia' in fiction where all nation states haven't all banded together... Thus, I think the 'stronger together but celebrating differences' is key for humanity's future ...

    @Mr2150 For sure, but the difference of nationality is quite trivial. I mean, look at your first paragraph...

  • Mr2150Mr2150 Member Posts: 1,170
    @FinneousPJ - Oh that's a given. People are people. Their nationality has little impact... so leaving behind those concepts is the first step forward.

    FinneousPJsparkleav
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    edited June 2016
    Mr2150 said:

    I don't love 'the French' but then 'the French' means nothing to me... I know French people who are lovely and I respect and care for them. But I also know British people like that. And Irish. And Germans. And Finnish... and ...



    Vote out - pray, if you like it.

    But if it was SE, EE, HU, DK, NO, IS to do so, it would be very painful indeed!

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861

    I think the 'stronger together but celebrating differences' is key for humanity's future ...

    @Mr2150 For sure, but the difference of nationality is quite trivial. I mean, look at your first paragraph...

    So Finneous, you wanted Austria and Portugal to win in Euro last group stage game day? I take it, but not very happily.

  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Mr2150 said:

    @FinneousPJ - Oh that's a given. People are people. Their nationality has little impact... so leaving behind those concepts is the first step forward.

    Nationality is trivial, but culture and religion are not.

    It is the desire of those at the heart of the European project to create a homogenised euro-culture, rather than valuing and protecting differences.

    I.e. a failure to understand the Vulcan philosophy of Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

    dunbarsparkleavAethernaut
  • ArgasArgas Member Posts: 174
    It can work..but it wont..

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Yulaw9460 said:



    DK? As in Denmark? Oh, don't worry about that. Our Prime Minister already assured the media and the population: There's no chance in Hell that Denmark will get a referendum about EU membership. Ever.

    I do not mind if you did - Denmark that is - get a referendum, or even voted out of EU. I really would mind the moment Denmark opted out of the Scandi free movement and cooperation.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,705
    TStael said:


    So Finneous, you wanted Austria and Portugal to win in Euro last group stage game day? I take it, but not very happily.

    Let's not mix sports and politics, please.

    sparkleavmf2112jackjack
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    S said:

    It can work..but it wont..

    Yuup. UK EU referendum is an important topic. And quite the complex one.

    But any which way, there is a result this Friday. I will not say this is historic like Berlin wall coming down, but it will matter a lot!

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2016
    The outcome is a forgone conclusion:

    1) "Remain" will win (because all those "undecideds" will vote for the status quo).

    2) "Leave" will claim that the referendum was not "free and fair", with some justification. The electoral commission will be called in, and spend many years deliberating.

    3) Disgruntled "Leave" campaigners will join the far right, ironically joining up with similar groups across Europe.

    4) The government will collapse in acrimony and recriminations. An early General Election will be called.

    Post edited by Fardragon on
    FinneousPJdunbarsparkleav
  • jobbyjobby Member Posts: 181
    edited June 2016
    Sadly behind the lies and vitriol the whole argument boils down to:

    1. Remain: rich people want to exploit the poor using cheap EU labour and (God forbid) TTIP.
    2. Leave: rich people want to exploit the poor by removing European human rights, workers rights etc etc.

    Whatever happens the little guy gets £&@[email protected]

    For the record I'll be voting to remain, perhaps one day we can reform Europe, reclaim democracy from the banking cartels and corporations and create a better society for all.
    I'm not holding my breath though.

    Fardragonsparkleav
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Fardragon said:

    The outcome is a forgone conclusion:

    1) "Remain" will win (because all those "undecideds" will vote for the status quo).

    I must have admitted my political crush on Jeremy Corbyn before, but his slightly unwilling argument seemed pretty compelling, by its realism. To me, at least.

    It was not about status quo, but avoiding a hard-right "bonfire of rights." And working together to reform.

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    jobby said:

    Sadly behind the lies and vitriol the whole argument boils down to:

    1. Remain: rich people want to exploit the poor using cheap EU labour and (God forbid) TTIP.
    2. Leave: rich people want to exploit the poor by removing European human rights, workers rights etc etc.

    Whatever happens the little guy gets £&@[email protected]

    For the record I'll be voting to remain, perhaps one day we can reform Europe, reclaim democracy from the banking cartels and corporations and create a better society for all.
    I'm not holding my breath though.

    I actually think more urgently it must be a matter of relative representation - because no government should have an absolute majority on 24 percent of the possible vote, I think!

    But force a populist party unto a governmental coalition, and it will be checked back unto its realistic support base, meaning one that is based on meaningful political cooperation. Keep it out - and it will only grow!

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2016
    TStael said:

    Fardragon said:

    The outcome is a forgone conclusion:

    1) "Remain" will win (because all those "undecideds" will vote for the status quo).

    I must have admitted my political crush on Jeremy Corbyn before, but his slightly unwilling argument seemed pretty compelling, by its realism. To me, at least.

    It was not about status quo, but avoiding a hard-right "bonfire of rights." And working together to reform.
    TStael said:

    jobby said:

    Sadly behind the lies and vitriol the whole argument boils down to:

    1. Remain: rich people want to exploit the poor using cheap EU labour and (God forbid) TTIP.
    2. Leave: rich people want to exploit the poor by removing European human rights, workers rights etc etc.

    Whatever happens the little guy gets £&@[email protected]

    For the record I'll be voting to remain, perhaps one day we can reform Europe, reclaim democracy from the banking cartels and corporations and create a better society for all.
    I'm not holding my breath though.

    I actually think more urgently it must be a matter of relative representation - because no government should have an absolute majority on 24 percent of the possible vote, I think!

    But force a populist party unto a governmental coalition, and it will be checked back unto its realistic support base, meaning one that is based on meaningful political cooperation. Keep it out - and it will only grow!


    The British system is rigged to maintain one of the two ruling party in power and keep out the little guys, with the explicit justification of making coalitions unlikely.

    Yup, the British system is broken.

    However, it is at least possible to put pressure on local MPs in a way you can't do on people in the EU Government. Tom Brake is a tit, but he lives just round the corner.

    Yup, the EU system is even more broken.

    What the UK needs is PR, and what the EU needs is a Senate. But those in power have a vested interest in resisting change with every fibre of their beings.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    We now have the technological capability to move into a true democracy instead of a representative government. I think there should be a pilot. I guess Estonia is already going in this direction with their electronic systems.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    We now have the technological capability to move into a true democracy instead of a representative government. I think there should be a pilot. I guess Estonia is already going in this direction with their electronic systems.

    Again, those in power have a vested interest in preserving "representative" democracy, and blocking any move to a "participatory" democracy.

    FinneousPJsparkleav
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,705
    edited June 2016
  • Mr2150Mr2150 Member Posts: 1,170
    The crazy thing is that the media have been whipping up a frenzy for the last few months and today, legally, they aren't allowed to report on the referendum other than say it's happening. So today we are getting news stories about puppies...

    sparkleav
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Mr2150 said:

    The crazy thing is that the media have been whipping up a frenzy for the last few months and today, legally, they aren't allowed to report on the referendum other than say it's happening. So today we are getting news stories about puppies...

    Much as I like puppies, the only news agency that seems to be honouring that rule is the BBC.

    sparkleav
  • Clumsy_DwarfClumsy_Dwarf Member Posts: 112
    edited June 2016
    The UK has been our best ally for the past 100 years. Whatever the outcome, I hope it is the best one for the UK and may God save the Queen.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,711
    Fardragon said:


    The British system is rigged to maintain one of the two ruling party in power and keep out the little guys, with the explicit justification of making coalitions unlikely.

    Yup, the British system is broken.

    What the UK needs is PR

    There are always trade-offs. I must admit I tend to prefer PR myself, but in some countries with PR that regularly experience short-lived, weak, coalition governments I can imagine that the British system would look pretty attractive.

    The standard of debate in this binary decision has not been very enlightening though and the level of vitriol about 'opponents' in the same political party has been far greater than normal for British politics. I really hope that's not going to become the new norm - it seems too much like American politics for my taste ...

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    The British system forces people to be in the same party in order to have a chance of being elected, even though they have almost nothing in common.

    The best government is a government that does as little as possible, so we could do with more "weakness". If this causes the Tory party to split, maybe some good will have come out of the farce.

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Seems that the turnout will be very high indeed! Apparently even more than 70% turn-out expected in Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    I'd be perso sorry to see Britain go - but as a democratic exercise this is a grand moment.

    Either way, I think EU needs must look why such a good idea (in my view at least) is so poorly implemented that a whole lot of Europeans feel quite disenfranchised from it.

    SharGuidesMyHand
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    TStael said:

    Seems that the turnout will be very high indeed! Apparently even more than 70% turn-out expected in Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    I'd be perso sorry to see Britain go - but as a democratic exercise this is a grand moment.

    Either way, I think EU needs must look why such a good idea (in my view at least) is so poorly implemented that a whole lot of Europeans feel quite disenfranchised from it.

    As a democratic exersise, it is a major effup.

    It was only allowed to happen because Cameron believed the outcome to be a forgone conclusion (and he was right, after a fashion). Where he was wrong was his belief that it would "settle things" within his own party. What it has done is driven a huge wedge through society, that won't heal for a very long time.

    We are already hearing claims of massive electoral fraud from the "leave" campaign.

    Not helped by dome polling stations being rendered inaccessible, and people trapped in London, unable to get home to vote, due to flash flooding (it is the English summer).

  • Mr2150Mr2150 Member Posts: 1,170
    edited June 2016
    Wow - turnout is expected to be around 70-75% (based on Gibraltar and a few other places).

    Voter turnout hasn't been that high for ages...

    Post edited by Mr2150 on
    sparkleav
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    TStael said:

    Does UK not love its neighbours that much?

    Do Switzerland and Norway not love their neighbours?

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 7,700

    We now have the technological capability to move into a true democracy instead of a representative government. I think there should be a pilot. I guess Estonia is already going in this direction with their electronic systems.

    A true democracy is more frightening than representative government, in many cases. There are still places in the United States where if you put minority rights up for a vote they would be stripped from those groups.

    mf2112ronaldosparkleav
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