I don't love 'the French' but then 'the French' means nothing to me... I know French people who are lovely and I respect and care for them. But I also know British people like that. And Irish. And Germans. And Finnish... and ...
I'm not aware of one future 'utopia' in fiction where all nation states haven't all banded together... Thus, I think the 'stronger together but celebrating differences' is key for humanity's future ...
@Mr2150 For sure, but the difference of nationality is quite trivial. I mean, look at your first paragraph...
I don't love 'the French' but then 'the French' means nothing to me... I know French people who are lovely and I respect and care for them. But I also know British people like that. And Irish. And Germans. And Finnish... and ...
Vote out - pray, if you like it.
But if it was SE, EE, HU, DK, NO, IS to do so, it would be very painful indeed!
DK? As in Denmark? Oh, don't worry about that. Our Prime Minister already assured the media and the population: There's no chance in Hell that Denmark will get a referendum about EU membership. Ever.
I do not mind if you did - Denmark that is - get a referendum, or even voted out of EU. I really would mind the moment Denmark opted out of the Scandi free movement and cooperation.
1) "Remain" will win (because all those "undecideds" will vote for the status quo).
2) "Leave" will claim that the referendum was not "free and fair", with some justification. The electoral commission will be called in, and spend many years deliberating.
3) Disgruntled "Leave" campaigners will join the far right, ironically joining up with similar groups across Europe.
4) The government will collapse in acrimony and recriminations. An early General Election will be called.
Sadly behind the lies and vitriol the whole argument boils down to:
1. Remain: rich people want to exploit the poor using cheap EU labour and (God forbid) TTIP. 2. Leave: rich people want to exploit the poor by removing European human rights, workers rights etc etc.
Whatever happens the little guy gets £&@?!@.
For the record I'll be voting to remain, perhaps one day we can reform Europe, reclaim democracy from the banking cartels and corporations and create a better society for all. I'm not holding my breath though.
1) "Remain" will win (because all those "undecideds" will vote for the status quo).
I must have admitted my political crush on Jeremy Corbyn before, but his slightly unwilling argument seemed pretty compelling, by its realism. To me, at least.
It was not about status quo, but avoiding a hard-right "bonfire of rights." And working together to reform.
Sadly behind the lies and vitriol the whole argument boils down to:
1. Remain: rich people want to exploit the poor using cheap EU labour and (God forbid) TTIP. 2. Leave: rich people want to exploit the poor by removing European human rights, workers rights etc etc.
Whatever happens the little guy gets £&@?!@.
For the record I'll be voting to remain, perhaps one day we can reform Europe, reclaim democracy from the banking cartels and corporations and create a better society for all. I'm not holding my breath though.
I actually think more urgently it must be a matter of relative representation - because no government should have an absolute majority on 24 percent of the possible vote, I think!
But force a populist party unto a governmental coalition, and it will be checked back unto its realistic support base, meaning one that is based on meaningful political cooperation. Keep it out - and it will only grow!
1) "Remain" will win (because all those "undecideds" will vote for the status quo).
I must have admitted my political crush on Jeremy Corbyn before, but his slightly unwilling argument seemed pretty compelling, by its realism. To me, at least.
It was not about status quo, but avoiding a hard-right "bonfire of rights." And working together to reform.
Sadly behind the lies and vitriol the whole argument boils down to:
1. Remain: rich people want to exploit the poor using cheap EU labour and (God forbid) TTIP. 2. Leave: rich people want to exploit the poor by removing European human rights, workers rights etc etc.
Whatever happens the little guy gets £&@?!@.
For the record I'll be voting to remain, perhaps one day we can reform Europe, reclaim democracy from the banking cartels and corporations and create a better society for all. I'm not holding my breath though.
I actually think more urgently it must be a matter of relative representation - because no government should have an absolute majority on 24 percent of the possible vote, I think!
But force a populist party unto a governmental coalition, and it will be checked back unto its realistic support base, meaning one that is based on meaningful political cooperation. Keep it out - and it will only grow!
The British system is rigged to maintain one of the two ruling party in power and keep out the little guys, with the explicit justification of making coalitions unlikely.
Yup, the British system is broken.
However, it is at least possible to put pressure on local MPs in a way you can't do on people in the EU Government. Tom Brake is a tit, but he lives just round the corner.
Yup, the EU system is even more broken.
What the UK needs is PR, and what the EU needs is a Senate. But those in power have a vested interest in resisting change with every fibre of their beings.
We now have the technological capability to move into a true democracy instead of a representative government. I think there should be a pilot. I guess Estonia is already going in this direction with their electronic systems.
We now have the technological capability to move into a true democracy instead of a representative government. I think there should be a pilot. I guess Estonia is already going in this direction with their electronic systems.
Again, those in power have a vested interest in preserving "representative" democracy, and blocking any move to a "participatory" democracy.
The crazy thing is that the media have been whipping up a frenzy for the last few months and today, legally, they aren't allowed to report on the referendum other than say it's happening. So today we are getting news stories about puppies...
The crazy thing is that the media have been whipping up a frenzy for the last few months and today, legally, they aren't allowed to report on the referendum other than say it's happening. So today we are getting news stories about puppies...
Much as I like puppies, the only news agency that seems to be honouring that rule is the BBC.
The British system is rigged to maintain one of the two ruling party in power and keep out the little guys, with the explicit justification of making coalitions unlikely.
Yup, the British system is broken.
What the UK needs is PR
There are always trade-offs. I must admit I tend to prefer PR myself, but in some countries with PR that regularly experience short-lived, weak, coalition governments I can imagine that the British system would look pretty attractive.
The standard of debate in this binary decision has not been very enlightening though and the level of vitriol about 'opponents' in the same political party has been far greater than normal for British politics. I really hope that's not going to become the new norm - it seems too much like American politics for my taste ...
The British system forces people to be in the same party in order to have a chance of being elected, even though they have almost nothing in common.
The best government is a government that does as little as possible, so we could do with more "weakness". If this causes the Tory party to split, maybe some good will have come out of the farce.
Seems that the turnout will be very high indeed! Apparently even more than 70% turn-out expected in Northern Ireland and Scotland.
I'd be perso sorry to see Britain go - but as a democratic exercise this is a grand moment.
Either way, I think EU needs must look why such a good idea (in my view at least) is so poorly implemented that a whole lot of Europeans feel quite disenfranchised from it.
Seems that the turnout will be very high indeed! Apparently even more than 70% turn-out expected in Northern Ireland and Scotland.
I'd be perso sorry to see Britain go - but as a democratic exercise this is a grand moment.
Either way, I think EU needs must look why such a good idea (in my view at least) is so poorly implemented that a whole lot of Europeans feel quite disenfranchised from it.
As a democratic exersise, it is a major effup.
It was only allowed to happen because Cameron believed the outcome to be a forgone conclusion (and he was right, after a fashion). Where he was wrong was his belief that it would "settle things" within his own party. What it has done is driven a huge wedge through society, that won't heal for a very long time.
We are already hearing claims of massive electoral fraud from the "leave" campaign.
Not helped by dome polling stations being rendered inaccessible, and people trapped in London, unable to get home to vote, due to flash flooding (it is the English summer).
We now have the technological capability to move into a true democracy instead of a representative government. I think there should be a pilot. I guess Estonia is already going in this direction with their electronic systems.
A true democracy is more frightening than representative government, in many cases. There are still places in the United States where if you put minority rights up for a vote they would be stripped from those groups.
Comments
So Finneous, you wanted Austria and Portugal to win in Euro last group stage game day? I take it, but not very happily.
It is the desire of those at the heart of the European project to create a homogenised euro-culture, rather than valuing and protecting differences.
I.e. a failure to understand the Vulcan philosophy of Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
But any which way, there is a result this Friday. I will not say this is historic like Berlin wall coming down, but it will matter a lot!
1) "Remain" will win (because all those "undecideds" will vote for the status quo).
2) "Leave" will claim that the referendum was not "free and fair", with some justification. The electoral commission will be called in, and spend many years deliberating.
3) Disgruntled "Leave" campaigners will join the far right, ironically joining up with similar groups across Europe.
4) The government will collapse in acrimony and recriminations. An early General Election will be called.
1. Remain: rich people want to exploit the poor using cheap EU labour and (God forbid) TTIP.
2. Leave: rich people want to exploit the poor by removing European human rights, workers rights etc etc.
Whatever happens the little guy gets £&@?!@.
For the record I'll be voting to remain, perhaps one day we can reform Europe, reclaim democracy from the banking cartels and corporations and create a better society for all.
I'm not holding my breath though.
It was not about status quo, but avoiding a hard-right "bonfire of rights." And working together to reform.
But force a populist party unto a governmental coalition, and it will be checked back unto its realistic support base, meaning one that is based on meaningful political cooperation. Keep it out - and it will only grow!
The British system is rigged to maintain one of the two ruling party in power and keep out the little guys, with the explicit justification of making coalitions unlikely.
Yup, the British system is broken.
However, it is at least possible to put pressure on local MPs in a way you can't do on people in the EU Government. Tom Brake is a tit, but he lives just round the corner.
Yup, the EU system is even more broken.
What the UK needs is PR, and what the EU needs is a Senate. But those in power have a vested interest in resisting change with every fibre of their beings.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-live-latest-poll-news-brexit-results-leave-remain-when-date-vote-odds-uk-britain-a7094741.html
The standard of debate in this binary decision has not been very enlightening though and the level of vitriol about 'opponents' in the same political party has been far greater than normal for British politics. I really hope that's not going to become the new norm - it seems too much like American politics for my taste ...
The best government is a government that does as little as possible, so we could do with more "weakness". If this causes the Tory party to split, maybe some good will have come out of the farce.
I'd be perso sorry to see Britain go - but as a democratic exercise this is a grand moment.
Either way, I think EU needs must look why such a good idea (in my view at least) is so poorly implemented that a whole lot of Europeans feel quite disenfranchised from it.
It was only allowed to happen because Cameron believed the outcome to be a forgone conclusion (and he was right, after a fashion). Where he was wrong was his belief that it would "settle things" within his own party. What it has done is driven a huge wedge through society, that won't heal for a very long time.
We are already hearing claims of massive electoral fraud from the "leave" campaign.
Not helped by dome polling stations being rendered inaccessible, and people trapped in London, unable to get home to vote, due to flash flooding (it is the English summer).
Voter turnout hasn't been that high for ages...