Well, I can't say I want to live in this country any more. I feel like too many leave votes came from uneducated racists stirred up by blatant fear mongering, and not enough younger people who'll actually live to be affected voted. Sad times.
@Fardragon I don't think Cameron will starve to death even though he has resigned :'D
His political career ends in failure and ignominy, I'm sure he thinks that is worse (if only because he has never been hungry enough to imagine what starving would be like).
He will come in at number two, behind Chamberlin but ahead of Blair, on the league table of "British PMs remembered forever for really screwing things up big time".
An unbelievable, historic mishap of letting this come up for a vote. Prime Ministers don't resign in total disgrace the night after a earth-shaking vote because something positive happened to the country. I mean, it happened almost instantly.
It isn't hard to get people as a collective to do something totally irrational, all you have to do is play to their basest fears and the "id" as it were. Now you see calls for a United Ireland, Scotland is looking for the nearest exit, as they should at this point. Even more terrifying?? It signals and portends the real danger of Trump here in the US, who ironically landed in Scotland this morning and clearly doesn't have the slightest fucking idea what just happened or even rudimentary knowledge of the issue.
Mistake one: Letting it come up for vote.
Mistake two: failing to win anything substantial in negotiation with other EU leaders.
Mistake three: Making "Remain" the official Government position, thus turning it into a confidence vote in the government. He should have said "Government is Neutral, MPs can campaign how they like".
Those who want to stop Trump need to learn from this: Having respected establishment figures and foreign leaders criticise Trump is likely to INCREASE his support.
Well, I can't say I want to live in this country any more. I feel like too many leave votes came from uneducated racists stirred up by blatant fear mongering, and not enough younger people who'll actually live to be affected voted. Sad times.
This is one of the reasons the "Remain" campaign failed: classic spurious logic. "Some "Leave" supporters are racist, ergo ALL "Leave" supporters are racist."
Generally speaking, calling people names isn't considered a good way to persuade them to change their minds...
Well, I can't say I want to live in this country any more. I feel like too many leave votes came from uneducated racists stirred up by blatant fear mongering, and not enough younger people who'll actually live to be affected voted. Sad times.
This is one of the reasons the "Remain" campaign failed: classic spurious logic. "Some "Leave" supporters are racist, ergo ALL "Leave" supporters are racist."
Generally speaking, calling people names isn't considered a good way to persuade them to change their minds...
Well, it was certainly fear of change to a great extent, which often ties into the unknown, ergo immigrants and refugees automatically tie into it. It's the same thing happening in the US. A irrational fear of immigrants (even though immigration to the US from Mexico is DOWN significantly). Older voters propelled this. Whatever it was, it was incredibly selfish and a spit in the eye to the younger generation. The feeling I get is that people don't even seem to really know what the hell they just did. Nationalism is easy to stoke. It's why we have wars and conflicts in the first place.
I find no solace in any sort of patriotism, because it leads to irrational thinking and hatred. Why?? Because people treat their country the same way they treat their favorite sports teams. Irrational pride for a basketball or soccer team is a relatively harmless distraction. When you start drawing lines in the sand in the real world and when everyone who isn't on your "team" is viewed as (at best) suspicious or worse, an enemy, well....that's human history for you. Bloodshed and misery based on nonsense.
This is one of the reasons the "Remain" campaign failed: classic spurious logic. "Some "Leave" supporters are racist, ergo ALL "Leave" supporters are racist."
Generally speaking, calling people names isn't considered a good way to persuade them to change their minds...
I agree of course, there's good and bad on both sides. I'm just commenting that in my own personal experience, a lot of what I've seen are people who dislike non-UK people voting leave under some assumption there'll be a mass deport of people who aren't born here, whilst ignoring entirely the economic arguments either way, and that is pretty sad.
And the apathy among a lot of younger people, again in my experience, who chose not to vote since it "would have no impact" is similarly disappointing.
Those who want to stop Trump need to learn from this: Having respected establishment figures and foreign leaders criticise Trump is likely to INCREASE his support.
What we have in this case is a half a century campaign (certainly in the US) by the right-wing to paint all government (yes, all government) as inherently bad and evil. Nevermind that when pressed on specifics on Social Security or Medicare that the same people are overwhelming in favor of keeping THEIR benefits. It doesn't even register to them that government provides these services. Not to mention stuff like, you know ROADS and hundreds of other essential services we couldn't function without.
Well, I can't say I want to live in this country any more. I feel like too many leave votes came from uneducated racists stirred up by blatant fear mongering, and not enough younger people who'll actually live to be affected voted. Sad times.
This is one of the reasons the "Remain" campaign failed: classic spurious logic. "Some "Leave" supporters are racist, ergo ALL "Leave" supporters are racist."
Generally speaking, calling people names isn't considered a good way to persuade them to change their minds...
Well, it was certainly fear of change to a great extent,
Leaving the EU is a massive change, if people where motivated by fear of change, they would have voted to remain. This is why I thought Remain would win easily.
which often ties into the unknown, ergo immigrants and refugees automatically tie into it. It's the same thing happening in the US. A irrational fear of immigrants (even though immigration to the US from Mexico is DOWN significantly).
Trump's opponents are guilty of the same error. What they are afraid of is loosing their jobs. Is it "irrational" to be afraid of someone who is willing to do your job for half the pay?
Older voters propelled this. Whatever it was, it was incredibly selfish and a spit in the eye to the younger generation.
Older people are retired, so they have less to fear. The idea that they are motivated by "selfishness" and a desire to make life difficult for youngsters is, frankly, ridiculous. The anti-Trump campaign really needs to learn, and look at it's blinkered perceptions, or it too will loose.
I find no solace in any sort of patriotism, because it leads to irrational thinking and hatred. Why?? Because people treat their country the same way they treat their favorite sports teams. Irrational pride for a basketball or soccer team is a relatively harmless distraction. When you start drawing lines in the sand in the real world and when everyone who isn't on your "team" is viewed as (at best) suspicious or worse, an enemy, well....that's human history for you. Bloodshed and misery based on nonsense.
Sports teams are important. they create a sense of identity and community which is vital for human co-operation. It was the EUs failure to see this that looks likely to bring about it's collapse.
Those who want to stop Trump need to learn from this: Having respected establishment figures and foreign leaders criticise Trump is likely to INCREASE his support.
What we have in this case is a half a century campaign (certainly in the US) by the right-wing to paint all government (yes, all government) as inherently bad and evil.
And politicians have done a very good job at living down to expectations.
Not to mention stuff like, you know ROADS and hundreds of other essential services we couldn't function without.
Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads! That is, in the past, back when america was great. Horses could just, like, trot through the plains, right?
(warning, the previous statement might be a gross misrepresentation of a whole bunch of in fact not particularly unreasonable people just for the sake of a quote) (maybe not though? maybe they are that bad) (although obviously not all of them)
The vote's been made, Cameron has resigned. Banks and investment firms are already moving out of the UK which means they will take their wealthy customers with them. A lot of the wealth is from foreign investment, this migration will almost certainly leave a financial hole. Although leaving the EU opens up new markets which were restricted previously by EU members. Mass hysteria that was stirred up by the media because drama sells but 'doomsday'? As some people are calling it, it's largely unknown at this point. I suspect this will be the first domino. Europe as we know it will be forced into reform. The outcome? Anybody's guess.
Ok, my post might not make too much sense but I've been up all night watching this shocking result unfolding. Trying to type on my phone whilst working and trying to keep my eyes open. I just think that instead of pointing fingers and fighting amongst each other, either brexiters' or remainers' we need to move forward from this but this vote has far reaching effects on the whole of the Europe not just the UK.
Yea, I'm all for being disillusioned misanthropes but no matter how pleasant it could be you can not seriously point at "someone who was on the news" and draw a conclusion about "alot of people".
Yea, I'm all for being disillusioned misanthropes but no matter how pleasant it could be you can not seriously point at "someone who was on the news" and draw a conclusion about "alot of people".
It's not that, it's my basic daily interactions with people.
Goodness me - we'll be living through some interesting times, politically!
I genuinely think, thought, that "Remain" gained momentum from the political assassination of Jo Cox, and surely it did as a counter reaction. Fairly or unfairly. But clearly "Leave" side were more mobilised and had more diligent turn out.
What saddens me to an extent is that younger people that were strongly for staying (about 60% I believe) will live the longest with this decision they did not favour.
And that UK is rather divided: N-Ireland + Scotland vs England and Wales, the younger vs the older, cities vs countryside. For Scottish nationals there is an obvious silver lining of the next Indy Ref. Probably means shift of sentiment in Northern-Ireland as well.
From my EU-citizens' perspective, key thing is to push through the result UK without delay, so each party can count their blessings and losses.
Having one less commissar will be fine at least! Feel sorry for any UK-eurocrats because they will have to be terminated on grounds of not having the right citizenship anymore.
I never thought we'd leave, I for one voted remain as just about everyone my age did, unfortunately we (the young) have been forced into a decision we didn't choose by people who won't live to see the true consequences. The elderly have either been extremely bigoted or they've been taken in by the rather obvious lies of the brexit campaign. There were some genuine reasons to leave but they were by far outweighed by the economic turmoil of leaving. Now with Scotland and Northern Ireland calling for independance (and the scots very nearly left last time) we're likely to see Britain become a shadow of what it once was. It's unlikely that we will ever be able to rejoin the EU, getting all 27 members to allow us back in would be a hard thing and by then it'll cause as much chaos to join as it will to leave. Hopefully the petition to rehold the referendum succeeds but it's extremely unlikely. Around a quarter of the population have decided to screw it all for the rest of us.
PS. Ironic, is it not that Boris Johnson whom threw his political ambitions with "Leave" to differentiate from Cameron is now saying : "We are not in a hurry to leave."
He was probably counting on Cameron staying for the messy bit.
Well, his future ex-EU partners do not want to hang from loose gallows unnecessarily, and neither do markets. I expect the negotiations to be potentially difficult, unfortunately, because it's essentially a divorce or "conscious uncoupling" - and we humans rarely split up that amicably.
Probably the "first past the post" system cost UK its EU membership, as an internal party political gamble by Cameron, to appease the Eurosceptic hard-right of his party, and to pre-empt UKIP. Four parties would be needed where UK has two.
Oh well, Cameron made that bed, and he needs to lay on it now. I don't think he was very popular, actually - weakening the Remain campaign. And this will be the thing he'll be remembered for, I think. And for intra-party bickering, no less! Bit sad, from my perspective.
I never thought we'd leave, I for one voted remain as just about everyone my age did, unfortunately we (the young) have been forced into a decision we didn't choose by people who won't live to see the true consequences.
I just hope I can get a job when I finish uni.
I am really sorry wubble.
Even I am a bit terrified how uncertainty hits European-wide economy, if it tears open old wounds (such as Gibraltar topic, or Irish troubles) and how we can cooperate positively without pettiness getting in the way. I am guessing there are a number of "reluctant" remainers whom curse themselves for not having gone out to the poll stations...
I am admitting to anxiety even when Finland is at least pretty firmly in. And 27 member EU will still be quite a significant block I think.
This will also leave a lot of UK peripheral areas and science investment that enjoyed EU structural funds at mercy of Westminster - whose ideological austerity policies I'd be afraid of. Plus UK will soon have a PM that was not actually running the general electetion, and hence responsible for the Tory manifesto...
Oh well - if Spain decides to send UK pensioners packing, because on points based system pensioners are not exactly on top of the list, then I would guess the impact will be felt by them as well. Not that I would want that to happen, rather UK should negotiate some sort of financial compensation for healthcare with its future ex-EU partners.
Here my assumption is that UK will not remain in the common market. If it did, it would still have to abide by EU requirements, free movement etc without actually having a say into EU policies - worst of both worlds, surely?
Edit: corrected dub-step friendly auto-correct of wubble's moniker! (as in bass-wobble)
I was watching Sky News last night on my phone and this comment came by. Not sure if the person was from the UK or an EU country. I laughed good though.
I never thought we'd leave, I for one voted remain as just about everyone my age did, unfortunately we (the young) have been forced into a decision we didn't choose by people who won't live to see the true consequences.
This is also dodgy data. This was a secret ballot, so no one knows how anyone actually voted. I certainly didn't tell anyone how I voted, how old I am, which party I voted for in the election or how many GCSEs I have.
All you have are opinion polls, the same polls that said Remain would win by 10%.
The elderly have either been extremely bigoted or they've been taken in by the rather obvious lies of the brexit campaign.
As opposed to the obvious lies the Remain campaign? There was barely a word of truth spoken from either campaign, and what was true was twisted and distorted to support whatever agenda that person supported.
So, the elderly people voted because they hate young people?! Yeah, that's logical. Or maybe that is just more lies coming from people who want to drive more wedges through society?
Now with Scotland and Northern Ireland calling for independence (and the scots very nearly left last time) we're likely to see Britain become a shadow of what it once was.
I don't understand why so many English people are opposed to Scottish independence. A matter for the Scots, surely?!
I would be delighted to see Ireland reunited. And if the Northern Irish can't cope with that, I would be just as delighted to see the back of the religious bigots forever.
I suspect those that didn't vote where simply disgusted with both campaigns.
Well, from my perspective, this referendum maybe was not the best time for a "protest vote" through disenfranchisement.
Both the divisive and nasty campaign, plus real life impacts from the outcome will be felt for some time yet, I think. I am sure there were measured voices on both sides, but the press was not very interested in reporting them.
There is increasing reason to believe, simply based on Google searches in the hours after the vote (a astronomical rise in the phrases "what is the EU" and "what happens if we leave the EU") that many people didn't have a CLUE what they were voting for, or were under the impression it barely mattered. What a historic fuck-up by a large portion of the voting public. A textbook example of irresponsible ignorance.
I suspect those that didn't vote where simply disgusted with both campaigns.
Well, from my perspective, this referendum maybe was not the best time for a "protest vote" through disenfranchisement.
Both the divisive and nasty campaign, plus real life impacts from the outcome will be felt for some time yet, I think. I am sure there were measured voices on both sides, but the press was not very interested in reporting them.
Sure, there was Jeremy Corbyn, and his party want to sack him for it. And there was me. But I'm afraid to say most of my friends joined in the mass hysteria.
There is increasing reason to believe, simply based on Google searches in the hours after the vote (a astronomical rise in the phrases "what is the EU" and "what happens if we leave the EU") that many people didn't have a CLUE what they were voting for, or were under the impression it barely mattered. What a historic fuck-up by a large portion of the voting public. A textbook example of irresponsible ignorance.
Cameron's fault. He turned it into a vote of confidence in the government.
I agree it's a major problem, but that problem lies with the campaigns ultimately. They misunderstood what the electorate wanted and needed. People asked for facts and were given strings of random made-up numbers with no relevance.
In my experience, it was the youngest voters that were the most engaged in seeking information, understanding the issues and trying to work out which way to vote. Older voters relied more on personalities, opinion and a sense of nostalgia, to decide their vote. And that's the sad thing here...
Compound this with the fact that Leave could drive a campaign built around a more positive message based on hope (whilst playing down the uncertainty of the unknown) but Remain had very few positive messages to counter it with, ending with 'if something is broken, you don't walk away, you try to fix it. Don't quit....'.
I agree it's a major problem, but that problem lies with the campaigns ultimately.
Power of the press "confirmed," at least this is how the anti-EU press (Daily Mails, Suns, Telegraphs etc) gloated!
Those titles did not hold back from stirring "them against us" sentiment, or slagging off EU and Remain campaigners quite shamelessly.
The pro-EU press (Guardian, Indy, Mirror) meanwhile were much more restrained both in their endorsement of Remain, plus general name-calling. (per my impression at least)
From outsiders' perspective, this was a very hostile and aggressive campaign where the press mainly focused on the Tory division and most spectacular claims. I still think it would have been possible to become informed, but we tend to let the press do the filtering for us.
Sigh...
Anyways, the die is cast, so from my perspective UK needs must leave promptly; and my main question at the moment is if they aim to maintain access to the Common Market.
There is increasing reason to believe, simply based on Google searches in the hours after the vote (a astronomical rise in the phrases "what is the EU" and "what happens if we leave the EU") that many people didn't have a CLUE what they were voting for, or were under the impression it barely mattered. What a historic fuck-up by a large portion of the voting public. A textbook example of irresponsible ignorance.
Cameron's fault. He turned it into a vote of confidence in the government.
Well, yes, he made a historically bad blunder. But does that let off the citizenry for casting votes they had next to no knowledge about??
Comments
Mistake two: failing to win anything substantial in negotiation with other EU leaders.
Mistake three: Making "Remain" the official Government position, thus turning it into a confidence vote in the government. He should have said "Government is Neutral, MPs can campaign how they like".
Those who want to stop Trump need to learn from this: Having respected establishment figures and foreign leaders criticise Trump is likely to INCREASE his support.
Generally speaking, calling people names isn't considered a good way to persuade them to change their minds...
I find no solace in any sort of patriotism, because it leads to irrational thinking and hatred. Why?? Because people treat their country the same way they treat their favorite sports teams. Irrational pride for a basketball or soccer team is a relatively harmless distraction. When you start drawing lines in the sand in the real world and when everyone who isn't on your "team" is viewed as (at best) suspicious or worse, an enemy, well....that's human history for you. Bloodshed and misery based on nonsense.
And the apathy among a lot of younger people, again in my experience, who chose not to vote since it "would have no impact" is similarly disappointing.
And politicians have done a very good job at living down to expectations.
(warning, the previous statement might be a gross misrepresentation of a whole bunch of in fact not particularly unreasonable people just for the sake of a quote)
(maybe not though? maybe they are that bad)
(although obviously not all of them)
I suspect this will be the first domino. Europe as we know it will be forced into reform. The outcome? Anybody's guess.
Ok, my post might not make too much sense but I've been up all night watching this shocking result unfolding. Trying to type on my phone whilst working and trying to keep my eyes open. I just think that instead of pointing fingers and fighting amongst each other, either brexiters' or remainers' we need to move forward from this but this vote has far reaching effects on the whole of the Europe not just the UK.
"Leave" won. I never had a strong opinion on it, but I never thought the UK would leave.
I genuinely think, thought, that "Remain" gained momentum from the political assassination of Jo Cox, and surely it did as a counter reaction. Fairly or unfairly. But clearly "Leave" side were more mobilised and had more diligent turn out.
What saddens me to an extent is that younger people that were strongly for staying (about 60% I believe) will live the longest with this decision they did not favour.
And that UK is rather divided: N-Ireland + Scotland vs England and Wales, the younger vs the older, cities vs countryside. For Scottish nationals there is an obvious silver lining of the next Indy Ref. Probably means shift of sentiment in Northern-Ireland as well.
From my EU-citizens' perspective, key thing is to push through the result UK without delay, so each party can count their blessings and losses.
Having one less commissar will be fine at least! Feel sorry for any UK-eurocrats because they will have to be terminated on grounds of not having the right citizenship anymore.
I just hope I can get a job when I finish uni.
He was probably counting on Cameron staying for the messy bit.
Well, his future ex-EU partners do not want to hang from loose gallows unnecessarily, and neither do markets. I expect the negotiations to be potentially difficult, unfortunately, because it's essentially a divorce or "conscious uncoupling" - and we humans rarely split up that amicably.
Probably the "first past the post" system cost UK its EU membership, as an internal party political gamble by Cameron, to appease the Eurosceptic hard-right of his party, and to pre-empt UKIP. Four parties would be needed where UK has two.
Oh well, Cameron made that bed, and he needs to lay on it now. I don't think he was very popular, actually - weakening the Remain campaign. And this will be the thing he'll be remembered for, I think. And for intra-party bickering, no less! Bit sad, from my perspective.
Even I am a bit terrified how uncertainty hits European-wide economy, if it tears open old wounds (such as Gibraltar topic, or Irish troubles) and how we can cooperate positively without pettiness getting in the way. I am guessing there are a number of "reluctant" remainers whom curse themselves for not having gone out to the poll stations...
I am admitting to anxiety even when Finland is at least pretty firmly in. And 27 member EU will still be quite a significant block I think.
This will also leave a lot of UK peripheral areas and science investment that enjoyed EU structural funds at mercy of Westminster - whose ideological austerity policies I'd be afraid of. Plus UK will soon have a PM that was not actually running the general electetion, and hence responsible for the Tory manifesto...
Oh well - if Spain decides to send UK pensioners packing, because on points based system pensioners are not exactly on top of the list, then I would guess the impact will be felt by them as well. Not that I would want that to happen, rather UK should negotiate some sort of financial compensation for healthcare with its future ex-EU partners.
Here my assumption is that UK will not remain in the common market. If it did, it would still have to abide by EU requirements, free movement etc without actually having a say into EU policies - worst of both worlds, surely?
Edit: corrected dub-step friendly auto-correct of wubble's moniker! (as in bass-wobble)
All you have are opinion polls, the same polls that said Remain would win by 10%. As opposed to the obvious lies the Remain campaign? There was barely a word of truth spoken from either campaign, and what was true was twisted and distorted to support whatever agenda that person supported.
So, the elderly people voted because they hate young people?! Yeah, that's logical. Or maybe that is just more lies coming from people who want to drive more wedges through society?
I don't understand why so many English people are opposed to Scottish independence. A matter for the Scots, surely?!
I would be delighted to see Ireland reunited. And if the Northern Irish can't cope with that, I would be just as delighted to see the back of the religious bigots forever.
Both the divisive and nasty campaign, plus real life impacts from the outcome will be felt for some time yet, I think. I am sure there were measured voices on both sides, but the press was not very interested in reporting them.
In my experience, it was the youngest voters that were the most engaged in seeking information, understanding the issues and trying to work out which way to vote. Older voters relied more on personalities, opinion and a sense of nostalgia, to decide their vote. And that's the sad thing here...
Compound this with the fact that Leave could drive a campaign built around a more positive message based on hope (whilst playing down the uncertainty of the unknown) but Remain had very few positive messages to counter it with, ending with 'if something is broken, you don't walk away, you try to fix it. Don't quit....'.
Those titles did not hold back from stirring "them against us" sentiment, or slagging off EU and Remain campaigners quite shamelessly.
The pro-EU press (Guardian, Indy, Mirror) meanwhile were much more restrained both in their endorsement of Remain, plus general name-calling. (per my impression at least)
From outsiders' perspective, this was a very hostile and aggressive campaign where the press mainly focused on the Tory division and most spectacular claims. I still think it would have been possible to become informed, but we tend to let the press do the filtering for us.
Sigh...
Anyways, the die is cast, so from my perspective UK needs must leave promptly; and my main question at the moment is if they aim to maintain access to the Common Market.
Edit: typo, missed shift for quotation mark.